Ugh this is definitely one of my biggest peeves in the whole system.

Pathfinder has a few instances where this just comes up and just gives me the bird. Ok, unarmed strikes are simple weapons yes? Thus everyone is proficient with them, however, it requires a specific feat to use them "proficiently," as in actually being able to deal lethal damage and not provoke an AOO when you throw a punch right? Now look at say the swashbuckler rogue archetype, that says "choose one martial weapon and add it to the list of weapons you are proficient with, or better yet, the Half-Elf variant racial option "ancestral arms" that allows you to get either proficiency with a martial OR exotic weapon of your choosing, and yet because of unarmed strikes odd predicament of being a simple weapon everyone is proficient with but you really aren't, neither of these options would allow me to truly be proficient with this simple weapon. I just wish they threw in OR you can get improved unarmed strike.

Now I'm sure there are reasons like improved unarmed strike is a prerequisite in a number of feat chains and other stuff as to why it "should," but this annoys the crap out of me. I mean look at ancestral arms, exotic weapon proficiency dueling sword is a prerequisite for at least one nice feat and that is alright. I'm sure a simple house rule would easily solve but unfortunately the vast majority of Pathfinder I get to play is PFS so that won't do.

Not every weapon does lethal damage. Anyone even a small child can punch someone, but not everyone can kill with or break bones with their bare hands. That is the difference between a normal unarmed strike and an improved unarmed strike.

Several weapons are able to be used differently depending on your training. The bastard sword is a perfect example. You can wield it two handed as a martial weapon, but if you have the feat exotic weapon proficiency you can wield it one handed.

The feat improved unarmed strike represents someone with training in a martial art. That does not necessarily mean a eastern martial art. It could be boxing or any number of ancient world martial arts.

Well I wouldn't say only eastern martial arts are lethal but I see what your saying and I even mentioned I'm sure there's decent reasoning for it. It always kind of bothered me though and I'm trying to make a character right now who would greatly appreciate the option to choose improved unarmed strike instead of a martial weapon for the swashbuckler archetype.

I'm trying to make a character right now who would greatly appreciate the option to choose improved unarmed strike instead of a martial weapon for the swashbuckler archetype.

Well, for situations where you're contemplating using unarmed strike, a level dip in a class that grants Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat is often very worthwhile anyhow, and Rogue is already a good candidate for a little multiclassing.

Think of it more like a combat maneuver - normal usage has an effect but provokes an AoO. Get the improved version and you can do a better effect and avoid the AoO.

Just be glad it doesn't require Combat Expertise or Power Attack!

Just be glad it doesn't require Combat Expertise or Power Attack!

It should require Skill Focus: Profession (Badass).

Derek Vande Brake wrote:

Just be glad it doesn't require Combat Expertise or Power Attack!

It should require Skill Focus: Profession (Badass).

Yay, feat taxes.

We always need more of those.

Well I wouldn't say only eastern martial arts are lethal but I see what your saying and I even mentioned I'm sure there's decent reasoning for it. It always kind of bothered me though and I'm trying to make a character right now who would greatly appreciate the option to choose improved unarmed strike instead of a martial weapon for the swashbuckler archetype.

I specifically stated the martial arts training did not have to be an eastern style. It could be boxing, savate, kampfringen, prankration or any of the other martial arts from around the world. Asia is not the only region to develop unarmed combat.

All characters get at least one feat at first level. If you are human you get two and fighters get an extra bonus combat feat. There is absolutely no reason you cannot start out with improved unarmed strike even at first level. Too many people b+#+@ and complain because they don’t get everything for free and have to spend their starting feats on developing their character. That is why you get feats in the first place.

Improved Unarmed Strike / Unarmed Strike proficiency is a weird thing. It would be awesome if it could be something like "Unarmed Strike is a Martial Weapon", and "Improved Unarmed Strike grants you proficiency with Unarmed Strike if you didn't have it already and do lethal damage with no penalty"

Improved Unarmed Strike / Unarmed Strike proficiency is a weird thing. It would be awesome if it could be something like "Unarmed Strike is a Martial Weapon", and "Improved Unarmed Strike grants you proficiency with Unarmed Strike if you didn't have it already and do lethal damage with no penalty"

Why you want to make it more restrictive?

I always been a bit put out by the various arguments for Improved Unarmed Strike being easier to get or more ubiquitous. Doubly so if they use the reverse guy at the gym argument (which the OP doesn't). They do however seem to feel that Improved Unarmed should be as easy to learn as how to use a sword somewhat effectively.

The ability to reliably do real damage to a standing opponent who is fit and aware is quite rare. Fighting an armed opponent is also ridiculously difficult. Movies and self defense trainers make it look easy, but their technique is usually akin to getting a new initiative roll to be made, winning initiative, then scoring a disarm or K.O in the surprise round.

Would be more record keeping, but a compromise position would be that, without the feat only the strength bonus damage from unarmed attacks is lethal.

noble peasant wrote:

I'm trying to make a character right now who would greatly appreciate the option to choose improved unarmed strike instead of a martial weapon for the swashbuckler archetype.

Well, for situations where you're contemplating using unarmed strike, a level dip in a class that grants Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat is often very worthwhile anyhow, and Rogue is already a good candidate for a little multiclassing.

Yeah - just dip 1-2 levels into Snakebite Striker Brawler. You get SA, full BAB, 2 good saves, Improved Unarmed Strike (with improved damage), proficiencies, and if you take the 2nd level you get flurry. It's a really good rogue dip.

If Unarmed Strike is a martial weapon, would that mean that classes that gain weapon proficiency with all martial weapons were treated as if they had Improved Unarmed Strike? I kind of like that idea. :)

This is your biggest beef?

Clerics/Inquisitors who worship a deity that has Favored Weapon: Unarmed Strike gain Improved Unarmed Strike instead of a favored weapon proficiency.

Based on this, there is no reason why someone that gains proficiency with a single martial/exotic weapon of their choice should not be able to select Improved Unarmed Strike as that choice.

Here's how I think of it: Unarmed Strike is an exotic weapon when used to do lethal damage, but does not require BAB to take the feat. It looks a little wonky for a couple reasons: first, because of backwards compatibility with 3.5 and second, because it would be one of very few EWPs to also have significant feats with it as a prerequisite.

chaoseffect wrote:

Derek Vande Brake wrote:

Just be glad it doesn't require Combat Expertise or Power Attack!

It should require Skill Focus: Profession (Badass).

Yay, feat taxes.

We always need more of those.

Feat pre-reqs aren't bad, they actually make logical sense.

Feat TAXES, as in being forced to take crap feats to get at something that approaches a baseline class feature...yeah, them's is the suck.

==Aelryinth

If you want to fix IUS, Improved Grapple, the improved other feats AND Exotic Weapon Prof, just do the following.

I've already posted that a nice fix to the improved Combat Manuver feats is to make them an extension of expertise.

I.e Expertise, +AC/-th, from 1 to 6.

In addition, you get an Improved Combat Manuver for each point of expertise, and your bonus to CMB and CMD against that maneuver equals your Expertise modifier.
You may choose IUS or Improved Grapple as Improved Combat Manuvers (i.e. they no longer provoke). In addition, your IUS damage automatically is equal to a monk of your level -4.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: You may spend skill points to learn Exotic or non-standard Weapons, 1 skill point per weapon.If you are a fighter, all your Exotic Weapons use the highest Weapon Mastery for any of the weapons. You may take IUS or Imp Grapple as Exotic Weapon proficiencies.

Two minor updates to feats, and suddenly neither of them is a feat tax, and you can actually have an Exotic Weapons Master.

==Aelryinth

I always been a bit put out by the various arguments for Improved Unarmed Strike being easier to get or more ubiquitous. Doubly so if they use the reverse guy at the gym argument (which the OP doesn't). They do however seem to feel that Improved Unarmed should be as easy to learn as how to use a sword somewhat effectively.

The ability to reliably do real damage to a standing opponent who is fit and aware is quite rare. Fighting an armed opponent is also ridiculously difficult. Movies and self defense trainers make it look easy, but their technique is usually akin to getting a new initiative roll to be made, winning initiative, then scoring a disarm or K.O in the surprise round.

I guess it's a good thing Pathfinder takes place in a fantasy world where it takes three seconds to reload a flintlock pistol and a single human with a sword can stand a chance against a creature that's both smarter than them and the size of a house.

@Mysterious Stranger, I didn't say I wanted it for free, I explicitly said that I simply wish that these two options that allow to gain proficiency with a weapon would allow me to take Improved unarmed strike. That isn't free, that is using something either my class gives me or a racial option. So stop acting like I'm whining and wanting free crap, I simply pointed out that the unarmed strikes' odd predicament on what you need to fight effectively means there are several places where you gain a martial or exotic weapon proficiency but you can't elect to take Improved unarmed strike and that bugs me.

there are several places where you gain a martial or exotic weapon proficiency but you can't elect to take Improved unarmed strike and that bugs me.

And there are several places where you gain Improved Unarmed Strike but don't have the option to take a martial or exotic weapon proficiency.

I don't see the issue.

noble peasant wrote:

there are several places where you gain a martial or exotic weapon proficiency but you can't elect to take Improved unarmed strike and that bugs me.

And there are several places where you gain Improved Unarmed Strike but don't have the option to take a martial or exotic weapon proficiency.

I don't see the issue.

Bards get proficiency with Whips but the Whip itself doesn't require a feat different from EWP, so anything that gets a free EWP can take the Whip.

Pathfinder has a few instances where this just comes up and just gives me the bird. Ok, unarmed strikes are simple weapons yes? Thus everyone is proficient with them, however, it requires a specific feat to use them "proficiently," as in actually being able to deal lethal damage and not provoke an AOO when you throw a punch right?

Keep in mind that untrained unarmed strikes only provoke when you're attacking a foe with a weapon, either manufactured or natural.

To be fair, being able to throw a punch at a trained swordsman and get your face slashed or your arm hacked off in the process does represent a pretty considerable special talent. It's kind of like the gripe about Improved Trip/ Combat Expertise, and how tripping shouldn't be 'complicated'; anyone can certainly try to trip a guy who is wielding a greataxe, but it takes a special gift to do it without opening yourself up for a cleavin'.

To be fair, being able to throw a punch at a trained swordsman and get your face slashed or your arm hacked off in the process does represent a pretty considerable special talent. It's kind of like the gripe about Improved Trip/ Combat Expertise, and how tripping shouldn't be 'complicated'; anyone can certainly try to trip a guy who is wielding a greataxe, but it takes a special gift to do it without opening yourself up for a cleavin'.

And to be perfectly honest, manufactured weapons against natural weapons or someone trained in IUS is STILL a massive advantage in reach.

Improved Armed Strike that gets an AoO when hit by natural attacks, grapples and IUS should be a thing if you want to take it. There's a reason people still use weapons!

==Aelryinth

I even wonder now how often people bother with IUS. I can kind'a imagine a dexterous rake willing to trade fisticuffs as well as steel, but why would such a hero bring a fist to a knife fight? So far in my party we've got all of one person who has IUS, the cleric of Irori. He's relied on his heavy mace for the most part instead.

I think the emphasis on martial and exotic versus simple comes from all of three classes in core lacking the whole simple weapon proficiency string. And of those three, one's the monk. And it's hard to imagine someone taking IUS over martial or exotic proficiency elsewhere.

Unarmed Strikes make some sense when done along-side a weapon, like striking with a sword and then punching or headbutting or whatever when you've got an opening. Mechanically, a level of Monk for Monk Unarmed Strike can let another class do TWF with an offhand that's automatically full strength and even full power attack.

As far as straight Monk goes, I don't know why people are so fixated on unarmed strikes as being the 'true' way. Traditionally, Monks with martial arts traditions still used weapons rather than not when things got serious. In my mind, the 'iconic' martial artist Monk is a Shaolin warrior with a kung-fu broadsword or a quarterstaff.

Zen Archer...

I love that class...

Its beautiful...

I even wonder now how often people bother with IUS. I can kind'a imagine a dexterous rake willing to trade fisticuffs as well as steel, but why would such a hero bring a fist to a knife fight? So far in my party we've got all of one person who has IUS, the cleric of Irori. He's relied on his heavy mace for the most part instead.

If using unarmed strikes had a tangible advantage either in grappling or with other combat maneuvers, I can see them being more interesting. As it stands, they require quite a bit of investment in to be any good with, but then that's most weapons in Pathfinder.

It still doesn't bother me much as Longswords and Bastard Swords being two different things and greatswords not having reach.

A cleric of Irori is another place that seems weird about this issue. Irori's holy weapon is an unarmed strike. A cleric gets a free proficiency with his/her deity's holy weapon. A cleric of Irori gains nothing from this. A feat to make the unarmed strike a bit better to replace that useless proficiency would only make logical sense.

Eh? IUS costs a feat normally. Most holy weapons are also martial weapons, which also cost a feat for most clerics.

Am I missing something?

==Aelryinth

Eh? IUS costs a feat normally. Most holy weapons are also martial weapons, which also cost a feat for most clerics.

Am I missing something?

==Aelryinth

I think the problem is that despite everyone being proficient in unarmed strikes, you need a different feat(IUS) to be "proficient" with them (able to use them outside of narrow situations).

It doesn't matter when just taking feats, but when something like the cleric favored weapon feature gives you proficiency I can see why someone would be irritated that despite needing a feat to be "proficent" with unarmed strikes like you would with a Falcata or something, proficiency with unarmed strikes is useless.

A cleric of Irori is another place that seems weird about this issue. Irori's holy weapon is an unarmed strike. A cleric gets a free proficiency with his/her deity's holy weapon. A cleric of Irori gains nothing from this. A feat to make the unarmed strike a bit better to replace that useless proficiency would only make logical sense.

In PFS, a Cleric (or Inquisitor) of Irori gets IUS for free because it is their deity's favored weapon. This is also a very common house rule.

Aelryinth wrote:

Eh? IUS costs a feat normally. Most holy weapons are also martial weapons, which also cost a feat for most clerics.

Am I missing something?

==Aelryinth

I think the problem is that despite everyone being proficient in unarmed strikes, you need a different feat(IUS) to be "proficient" with them (able to use them outside of narrow situations).

It doesn't matter when just taking feats, but when something like the cleric favored weapon feature gives you proficiency I can see why someone would be irritated that despite needing a feat to be "proficent" with unarmed strikes like you would with a Falcata or something, proficiency with unarmed strikes is useless.

I'm still failing to see.

Unless you are saying that clerics of irori don't get IUS normally? They get something they already have? I'd consider that a typo myself, and just like PFS award IUS.

==Aelryinth

Unarmed strike is not a simple weapon. It's not a martial weapon. And it's not an exotic one. Because it's not a manufactured weapon at all, it's its own category of physical combat. And it's good that way - I don't want anancastic approaches to get everything (including natural weapons, maneuvers etc.) into the three bins simple, martial and exotic.

Yes, the rules are sometimes a bit odd, mainly for historical reasons. But 'Ancestral Arms' is already an overpowered racial trait (usually you'd need a feat for this effect!), so I don't see a point for complaints that it doesn't deliver even more...

Redelia wrote:

A cleric of Irori is another place that seems weird about this issue. Irori's holy weapon is an unarmed strike. A cleric gets a free proficiency with his/her deity's holy weapon. A cleric of Irori gains nothing from this. A feat to make the unarmed strike a bit better to replace that useless proficiency would only make logical sense.

In PFS, a Cleric (or Inquisitor) of Irori gets IUS for free because it is their deity's favored weapon. This is also a very common house rule.

I've never really put thought into the issue before, but yea, that's how I'd rule.