Pathfinder Beginner Box Heroes Miniatures Set

I received mine last night. They are great. Can't wait to use them.

The D&D disks are like POGs.

Sorry, but we're not going to do that, ever. For starters, I hate the way the image has to focus on the monster's face, so they all end up looking either tiny or too zoomed in. Terrible.

So no, we won't be doing POGs.

We have had a lot of very positive feedback from the cardboard cut-out pawns in the new Beginner Box, however, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see more products along those lines.

These things are not mutually exclusive. We don't even produce the pre-painted miniatures, WizKids does. They have been producing prepainted plastic miniatures for longer than anyone in the American tabletop gaming business, and they know their stuff. I am not too worried about longevity, and even if I were, I'd still be pushing them to make the miniatures as awesome as possible at as good a price as possible for basically one reason:

Because I can.

But Erik. YOU have ALREADY DONE the POG THING. YOU HAVE. IN EVERY example of tactical play in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook (and many of the supplements) the situation is put forth using what are obviously face portrait pogs on a non-3d style mat. This obviously has its roots from the 3.0 and 3.5 editions of D&D. But still. That was then. This is now. YOU, MY FRIEND. ARE STILL USING POGS. And whether you hate them or not. You are advocating their use over EVERYTHING ELSE. Thanks for that :) Now make me some damn pogs please. Preferably with a dry-erase or alcohol erasable surface. Make them JUST LIKE the ones used in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. :D Thanks.

But Erik. YOU have ALREADY DONE the POG THING. YOU HAVE. IN EVERY example of tactical play in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook (and many of the supplements) the situation is put forth using what are obviously face portrait pogs on a non-3d style mat. This obviously has its roots from the 3.0 and 3.5 editions of D&D. But still. That was then. This is now. YOU, MY FRIEND. ARE STILL USING POGS. And whether you hate them or not. You are advocating their use over EVERYTHING ELSE. Thanks for that :) Now make me some damn pogs please. Preferably with a dry-erase or alcohol erasable surface. Make them JUST LIKE the ones used in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. :D Thanks.

Well, yes and no. Its much easier to show tactical combat with a graphic image rather than a miniature. But, I could see these being called pogs in a virtual sense. And I have good news for you. Thanks to the folks at RP Tools, you can have all the virtual pogs you want... for free. Download Token Tool and you can start amassing your virtual pog collection today!

Well, yes and no. Its much easier to show tactical combat with a graphic image rather than a miniature.

This is exactly why I use them in my games.

And I have good news for you. Thanks to the folks at RP Tools, you can have all the virtual pogs you want... for free. Download Token Tool and you can start amassing your virtual pog collection today!

I have bad news for you. This is not what I want.

I do realize that the PDF option may appease some people. And that is well and good. A downloadable POG option that I have to cut out, mount, laminate and label is not what I want though. The people who wanted pre-painted randomly boxed miniatures got a pre-painted randomly boxed miniatures system. I want a die cut cardboard option offered as a standalone product done by the Paizo art team that is to scale with the GameMastery floor plans. Dry Erase and Alcohol Pen friendly. It would be nice if it had an 'on the board' footprint that represented its 'in game' size. I want these items not as a freebee hand out. But something I want to BUY. With money. I think that while I may be the most vocal person asking for them at the moment, that there are a great deal of other people who want the same.

I am not going away. I am not going to stop asking for it.

Thank you for your time :)

Dear Paizo Staff,
Even though i enjoy your new miniatures, i grow concerned.
The day Paizo comes out with Second Edition Pathfinder Corebook requiring you to purchase their 'new miniature line' to play, and requiring things like PC's movement being listed in SQUARES instead of feet, i will sell my entire Pathfinder collection....

Please don't turn into Wizards of the Coast, that's why i switched to Pathfinder.

thanks for your continued quality products,

John

But Erik. YOU have ALREADY DONE the POG THING. YOU HAVE. IN EVERY example of tactical play in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook (and many of the supplements) the situation is put forth using what are obviously face portrait pogs on a non-3d style mat. This obviously has its roots from the 3.0 and 3.5 editions of D&D. But still. That was then. This is now. YOU, MY FRIEND. ARE STILL USING POGS. And whether you hate them or not. You are advocating their use over EVERYTHING ELSE. Thanks for that :) Now make me some damn pogs please. Preferably with a dry-erase or alcohol erasable surface. Make them JUST LIKE the ones used in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. :D Thanks.

Dooooooooood.

Dear Paizo Staff,

Even though i enjoy your new miniatures, i grow concerned.
The day Paizo comes out with Second Edition Pathfinder Corebook requiring you to purchase their 'new miniature line' to play, and requiring things like PC's movement being listed in SQUARES instead of feet, i will sell my entire Pathfinder collection....

Please don't turn into Wizards of the Coast, that's why i switched to Pathfinder.

thanks for your continued quality products,

John

Your concern about requiring miniatures to play in some secret new edition is unfounded.

There's no secret new edition.

There is no appetite whatsoever for requiring miniatures to play.

There is no cause for alarm.

I am not going away. I am not going to stop asking for it.

Thank you for your time :)

Well, I'm here to tell you, we are not going to do POGs.

I mean, you might be able to wait me out, I guess, but you should know I'm the only staff member who has been here consistently since the day Paizo opened (and before that, when we were part of WotC), so you might have to wait a really, really long time.

Now, I'm not saying we won't do die-cut cardboard counters of some kind. We already did in the Beginner Box, and they've been very popular. Why would we take all of that positive feedback and flatten, shrink, and zoom in the images to make an uglier, less-useful product that is more or less identical to the kind made by our biggest direct competitor?

Because one guy is asking us to?

I appreciate the feedback, and I always want to hear suggestions of what people would like, but in this case I am happy to tell you that there are plenty of die-cut options that do not equal POGs.

We are not going to make POGs, no matter how often you ask us to. :)

PaladinRS wrote:

I am not going away. I am not going to stop asking for it.

Thank you for your time :)

Well, I'm here to tell you, we are not going to do POGs.

I mean, you might be able to wait me out, I guess, but you should know I'm the only staff member who has been here consistently since the day Paizo opened (and before that, when we were part of WotC), so you might have to wait a really, really long time.

Now, I'm not saying we won't do die-cut cardboard counters of some kind. We already did in the Beginner Box, and they've been very popular. Why would we take all of that positive feedback and flatten, shrink, and zoom in the images to make an uglier, less-useful product that is more or less identical to the kind made by our biggest direct competitor?

Because one guy is asking us to?

I appreciate the feedback, and I always want to hear suggestions of what people would like, but in this case I am happy to tell you that there are plenty of die-cut options that do not equal POGs.

We are not going to make POGs, no matter how often you ask us to. :)

Well. Fortunately I am not an impossible guy to please. I DO like the POGs. I think you are vastly underestimating their potential and utility. But whatever. I also LOVE the Pawns that came with the Pathfinder Boxed set. I bought it for the pawns alone. And am happy with the money I spent on it. I think you would be very well served by getting your artists together with your game aid people from GamesMastery and pursuing this. My concern is this though. Once the WizKid collectible miniatures game is out, I find it VERY unlikely they will not exert pressure to stifle the development of any product they perceive as competition for their miniatures.

By not offering ANY KIND of a physical alternative to prepainted miniatures, you are FORCING me to buy from your biggest direct competitor. Take a few moments of your valuable time, go to Amazon.com, and read the reviews of people who bought the 4th Edition Monster Vault SOLELY for the pogs that play your game.

Also. There are Dungeons and Dragons Flipmats. Does this mean that GameMastery is going to stop producing them?

Lastely. 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons uses a plastic miniature on a flip mat for their 'examples of play'. It was first published in 2008. The Pathfinder Core Rulebook was published in 2009 and uses a graphic representation of a Portrait Pog on a flipmat for it's 'Examples of Play. Am just curious since you were there from Day One how this happened?

Dooooooooood.

Am I being untruthful? Is that not EXACTLY what they are? I just would like some consistent reasoning why you feel portrait based pogs are good enough for your Core Rule Book, but not good enough to play with on a physical table top. Thanks.

As to the set of Iconics, they are wonderful and well worth the price of entry. 3D avatars for me will always be "DnD" for me, and with Pathfinder being the preeminent "DnD" game, it's important that these PPM by Wizkids be as good as they are. Cannot wait for the 41 piece set coming up, as well as the sets to follow. The marketplace needs this.

And thank you, Eric Mona of saying no to POGs/Pawns as the face of Pathfinder on tactical maps. While a nice way to get new players into representing their characters and the monsters they battle for very little cost of entry, PPMs will always be the method to inspire wonder and promote play going forward.

Kudos!

By not offering ANY KIND of a physical alternative to prepainted miniatures, you are FORCING me to buy from your biggest direct competitor.

OMG! You're right!!! Too bad they don't do anything like get a company to make metal miniatures. Or standup paper minis. Or, ya know, the pawns that you LOVE and Erik said he knows are popular, and wouldn't be surprised to see more of.

Am I being untruthful? Is that not EXACTLY what they are? I just would like some consistent reasoning why you feel portrait based pogs are good enough for your Core Rule Book, but not good enough to play with on a physical table top. Thanks.

I heard them fancy computifying machines can put pictures on top of other pictures, them print them into books!! ;)

I just would like some consistent reasoning why you feel portrait based pogs are...not good enough to play with on a physical table top.

I don't make a habit of answering for other people, but I'm going to chime in with my understanding.

The consistent answer seems to be something like "POGs suck compared to pre-painted, metal, paper, and die-cut stand-ups."

The answer not only fits the definition of consistent but additionally appears to be a fairly firm answer.

"The product you want sucks, and it will be over my dead body that something like this gets done, which is saying something since I have an awful lot of decision-making power here," is the idea I take away from it. Over two pages. Repeatedly.

I also LOVE the Pawns that came with the Pathfinder Boxed set. I bought it for the pawns alone. And am happy with the money I spent on it. I think you would be very well served by getting your artists together with your game aid people from GamesMastery and pursuing this.

Cool. Glad you liked them. Maybe we'll make more of them. Everyone (including me, who came up with the idea in the first place) seems to think that would be a good idea.

My concern is this though. Once the WizKid collectible miniatures game is out, I find it VERY unlikely they will not exert pressure to stifle the development of any product they perceive as competition for their miniatures.

Forgive me, but LOL. WizKids licenses the Pathfinder brand, which we own. They do not determine what products we do and don't do.

It might surprise you to know that our WizKids partnership has not soured our relationship with our excellent partners at Reaper Miniatures, who have been producing metal Pathfinder miniatures under license from us for several years now, with no end in sight.

The WizKids guys are supportive of our relationship with Reaper, and the Reaper guys are supportive of our relationship with WizKids. They understand that different customers are looking for different things. There's some crossover, to everyone's benefit.

I think I speak for everyone involved (and perhaps even everyone in the tabletop gaming industry) when I say that our perspective is that whatever gets people playing at the table is good. If someone wants to augment his Reaper collection with several cool WizKids minis, and that keeps him excited and interested in his game, cool! Ditto our cardboard pawns.

It is all good.

By not offering ANY KIND of a physical alternative to prepainted miniatures, you are FORCING me to buy from your biggest direct competitor.

It's absurd that you are using ALL CAPS to emphasize your CERTAINTY that just because something DOES NOT YET EXIST it will therefore NEVER exist.

And I'm not forcing you to do anything. If the disks from Wizards of the Coast fit your needs better than our offerings, I think it's awesome that you have an option that's right for you, even if Paizo doesn't produce it.

Also. There are Dungeons and Dragons Flipmats. Does this mean that GameMastery is going to stop producing them?

No. I hear there's a Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game, but that doesn't stop us from publishing Pathfinder.

Lastely. 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons uses a plastic miniature on a flip mat for their 'examples of play'. It was first published in 2008. The Pathfinder Core Rulebook was published in 2009 and uses a graphic representation of a Portrait Pog on a flipmat for it's 'Examples of Play. Am just curious since you were there from Day One how this happened?

Plastic Pathfinder miniatures did not exist in 2009, and therefore the idea of using them to illustrate anything in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook did not, and indeed could not, exist.

Lastely, the best way to illustrate an example on a two-dimensional printed page is not necessarily also the best way to represent a game effect on a three-dimensional game table.

We want pawns! We want pawns! We want pawns!

I used to request POGs until I saw pawns and realized that POGs look horrible next to them. Now I all want is pawns. Pedal faster, brave Sir Mona, bring us the goodness!

It doesn't count as a real request unless it's in capitals.

It doesn't count as a real request unless it's in capitals.

Crap, forgot about that, thanks Steve!

GIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEV

PAWNZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hope that works.

Am I being untruthful? Is that not EXACTLY what they are? I just would like some consistent reasoning why you feel portrait based pogs are good enough for your Core Rule Book, but not good enough to play with on a physical table top. Thanks.

You obviously didn't bother to comprehend what I wrote. Or do any research yourself. So by all means. Get condescending. Your bruised sense of Forum Ownership and Epeenery makes me laugh. And it most certainly doesn't bother me.

If POGs suck so bad, why has Wizards of the Coast moved entirely away from their plastic miniature line to produce them? Do you think the HASBRO TOYS COMPANY isn't interested in making money off PLASTIC FIGURES?

If cramped one dimensional art is so terrible, explain to me the success of GameMastery Map Packs. All of which are on 4"x6" card stock.

And last but not least. With all the options available to their fancy computifying machines of putting pictures on top of other pictures, the method Paizo chose to demonstrate mechanics of play in the Pathfinder Core Rule Book was to use portrait based POGS on a Map Pack style map. How would drawing that, digitizing it, and photoshopping it been easier than putting a painted figure on a grid and taking a picture with a camera?

Wow, where do you get the gall to come to this topic of discussion with such outright disrespect and bizarre sense of entitlement?

You most certainly draw poor comparisons to your username.

Go back, reread your tone and choice of words, and then consider how your apologies will read. This is a good respectful community and you're well outside of that in my opinion.

If POGs suck so bad, why has Wizards of the Coast moved entirely away from their plastic miniature line to produce them?

This has been said a lot lately. Is it not common knowledge that they're currently playtesting a new miniatures game for a relaunch?

I suspect they'll be doing both within a year or so. I'd expect Paizo to be supplying at least some set of pawns within a year too. (With no insider knowledge, of course, but this is the internet so we can speculate about stuff we have no clue about, right?)

If cramped one dimensional art is so terrible, explain to me the success of GameMastery Map Packs. All of which are on 4"x6" card stock.

This must be a joke right? Nobody is saying one dimensional (though I suspect you meant two dimensional) art is terrible - the map packs have always been great for putting figures on. They also work well with those 'POG things' WoTC produce.

I realize I am contradicting my desire for pogs. Which I personally favor. But I do agree. The pawns from the Beginner Box are great. However. If this is going to be the direction things are going, then hopefully a 'base' system for them will be developed. That is why pogs were such a great thing in my opinion. A medium size creature took up a five foot square on a 1 square=5' map. With say a Frost Giant pawn for example, unless you have a huge plastic base to display its footprint, its not going to really... 'work'. For lack of a better word. Its late, and I am probably not articulating this as well as I could if I weren't. But you get the idea.

And to Erik. Indeed. I have been happy with the Wizards of the Coast POGs for sometime. I have a s!&!load of them.

But for what it is worth, I wish that money had gone to Paizo. I am confident you could do a better job. Even with just an ugly cardboard pog.

I realize I am contradicting my desire for pogs. Which I personally favor. But I do agree. The pawns from the Beginner Box are great. However. If this is going to be the direction things are going, then hopefully a 'base' system for them will be developed. That is why pogs were such a great thing in my opinion. A medium size creature took up a five foot square on a 1 square=5' map. With say a Frost Giant pawn for example, unless you have a huge plastic base to display its footprint, its not going to really... 'work'. For lack of a better word. Its late, and I am probably not articulating this as well as I could if I weren't. But you get the idea.

It would seem to me to be essential to make large and huge pawns with appropriate sized bases. That wouldnt be too hard, would it?

I realize I am contradicting my desire for pogs. Which I personally favor. But I do agree. The pawns from the Beginner Box are great. However. If this is going to be the direction things are going, then hopefully a 'base' system for them will be developed. That is why pogs were such a great thing in my opinion. A medium size creature took up a five foot square on a 1 square=5' map. With say a Frost Giant pawn for example, unless you have a huge plastic base to display its footprint, its not going to really... 'work'. For lack of a better word. Its late, and I am probably not articulating this as well as I could if I weren't. But you get the idea.

And to Erik. Indeed. I have been happy with the Wizards of the Coast POGs for sometime. I have a s#+!load of them.

But for what it is worth, I wish that money had gone to Paizo. I am confident you could do a better job. Even with just an ugly cardboard pog.

I appreciate your trust and support.

And I agree with you that a more robust offering of pawns would be best served by a base that covered the correct number of squares.

You obviously didn't bother to comprehend what I wrote. Or do any research yourself. So by all means. Get condescending. Your bruised sense of Forum Ownership and Epeenery makes me laugh. And it most certainly doesn't bother me.

If POGs suck so bad, why has Wizards of the Coast moved entirely away from their plastic miniature line to produce them? Do you think the HASBRO TOYS COMPANY isn't interested in making money off PLASTIC FIGURES?

If cramped one dimensional art is so terrible, explain to me the success of GameMastery Map Packs. All of which are on 4"x6" card stock.

And last but not least. With all the options available to their fancy computifying machines of putting pictures on top of other pictures, the method Paizo chose to demonstrate mechanics of play in the Pathfinder Core Rule Book was to use portrait based POGS on a Map Pack style map. How would drawing that, digitizing it, and photoshopping it been easier than putting a painted figure on a grid and taking a picture with a camera?

You obviously didn't bother to comprehend what Erik wrote. Or do any research yourself. So by all means. Get condescending. Your bruised sense of Forum Trollery and Epeenery makes me laugh. And it most certainly doesn't bother me.

If Plastic Miniatures suck so bad, why has Wizards of the Coast announced they are producing a new plastic miniature line? Link. Do you think the HASBRO TOYS COMPANY isn't interested in making money off PLASTIC FIGURES?

If Pre-painted plastic minis are so terrible, explain to me the success of DDM, Heroclix, Mageknight, etc. All of which are plastic minis that are pre-painted.

And last but not least. With all the options available to you the consumer, the method you chose to demonstrate the superiority of Pogs wsa to mention the mechanics of play in the Pathfinder Core Rule Book which uses portrait based POGS on a Map Pack style map back before the minis line was even considered. How could they have made the minis, went back in time and altered the picutres been easier than putting a flat picture on a grid and taking a picture with a camera?

See what I did there?

JMD031

Imitation is the nicest form of flattery. So thanks man.

I won't point out that WizKids has traded hands more time in the last five years than the rights to the Beatle's music. Or the fact that even Heroscape, which was BoardGameGeeks highest rated collectable miniatures game is now defunct. As far as a new D&D miniatures game? That is news to me. Maybe they didn't get their heads kicked in on it enough the first time around?

If you wanted a Pre-Painted Collectible Pathfinder Miniatures Game I am glad you are getting one.

I am also glad that apparently sometime in the unforeseeable future those of us who want it are getting an alternative to this.

I am going to keep asking and talking about it until I see it though.

Enjoy your miniatures game. If it turns out to be something you hate, check out Heroscape. That was a pretty good system. And you get get trunkloads of it for cheap.

I remember this one time. In Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying, the group I was running through Enemy Within ran into just this random Troll on the 'random encounter' table. And man. It tore them a new one. They couldn't get the troll all the way down. And the troll just couldn't seem to get enough wounds on the tank to get to the casters. So it sort of ended with them fleeing. And the troll healing up. I honestly didn't intend for it to jack them up quite so bad. But they had sort of had an easy run of it until that point. They had a good group make up. And anyone who played the old Warhammer FRP can tell you, once Mages got through their first career path, they were sort of ridiculous.

But then man. I had this idea. What if this Troll chased them? You know. Dogged their every step? Was there at the worst possible moment? Like.. I was almost gas lighting this party with this random Troll. Was it going to show up in the middle of a bigger fight? Was it the muscle for this goblin syndicate they were having problems with?

I eventually retired it. But man. Not before it had picked up armor use, weapon profiencies, minor spell use. I sort of leveled it to keep pace with the party if you can dig. And you know. Even that damn Battle Mage absolute would NOT spend his last magic point in a fight. just in case he needed it for a flame spike on that damn troll.

It was weird. Enemy Within had a freaking ridiculously good cast of characters and villains. But the dudes I ran it for in Germany always email reminiscing about that one random troll that just always kept popping up. A couple of them were sincerely amazed that this troll was literally something of their own making. If they hadn't made such a big thing of the encounter, I would never have had the idea to make it such a cool foe.

So yeah. I guess I identify with the Troll. :)

Thanks.

*sigh*

You are just not getting it. I don't think anyone arguing with you really cares that much for pre-plastic miniatures that they are willing to forsake all alternatives. Not even Paizo is doing that even though you are saying they are. There are alternatives, there is the Reaper Mini line, there is the PAIZO paper mini line, and there is the D&D pogs. Paizo has said, not in any official way, that they are considering producing more pawns, but (like a good business in this field in this day and age) they are waiting to ensure it's viability.

Abraham Lincoln once said, "You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time".

You hate PPM. We get it. But lots of other people like them and guess what? That's ok. Paizo has realized that they can't make all of the people happy all of the time so instead they have opted to ensuring that the most options are available to the general population of gamers. If YOU don't like PPM, don't buy them. Be patient and wait to see if they develop cardboard Pawns. If not, WOTC will gladly take your money. I don't see the need for you to get all bent out of shape because Paizo decided to allow another company to make a product that people do in fact want. Again, if you aren't one of those people well that's just how the business works.

Last point. Your points are valid. BUT your methods are abusive and crude. If you wouldn't have let this become a personal thing, I'm certain your voice would have carried a lot more weight. Now I think due to your attitude, you have probably hurt your cause more than help it. Patience is a virtue.

Wow, this thread became no fun anymore...

I suggest Paladin start a new thread to complain and we can continue talking about the thread subject.

I acutally picked up a third set Wednesday since my order is stuck in USPS Hell.

(Just means my two pre-orders go to the kids.) These are things of beauty, and I've enough Clix to appriciate the 'evolution of Wizkids plasticrak.'

This is a product thread. Please would the parties involved in this dispute take it to another thread, or better yet, just stop.
Product threads are for discussion of the product, and may be the first thing somebody sees when approaching the Paizo boards for the first time.
The tone of this thread is not a good representation of the company and the principles that guide it. This is their space.

I eagerly await my set of minis, and am also excited for the case we ordered.

Maybe we should delete page 8 of this thread and move on! :)

Later,

Mazra