Pathfinder Adventure Path #46: Wake of the Watcher (Carrion Crown 4 of 6) (PFRPG)

Alright, I know I'm probably going to catch hell for asking this, but why is Cthulu always regarded as the end-all-be-all ultimate evil and grand terror of Lovecraft? Frankly, I was a bit bored by the actual "Call of Cthulu" story, and I thought some of his most chilling tales were the ones written before the whole Cthulu Mythos.

Probably because the actually creepy ones are hard to translate to an RPG, while the classic Cthulhu stories work much better in that vein. How do you turn The Colour Out Of Space into a module? Yet, The Call of Cthulhu seems to almost have been written as a game.

Alright, I know I'm probably going to catch hell for asking this, but why is Cthulu always regarded as the end-all-be-all ultimate evil and grand terror of Lovecraft? Frankly, I was a bit bored by the actual "Call of Cthulu" story, and I thought some of his most chilling tales were the ones written before the whole Cthulu Mythos.

Because almost all of his stories have some degree of ties to the Mythos. If you're asking why the entity Cthulhu in particular is singled out, I can't really tell you. He's a mid-level power in the Mythos as a whole.

What about stories like The Rats in the Walls or Picman's Model? There are a plethora of Lovecraft stories that have nothing to do with the mythos. In fact, I think that after the creation of the mythos, Lovecraft started to love his own inventions too much, and became far more concerned with showing off his pantheon than with the quality of his stories.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not condemning the man by any means, I mean he invented a genre. My problem is that the stories within this genre are so often casts as horror, but it seems that "dark sci-fi" would be a more appropriate classification. His ideas are certainly frightening, but the execution is what is lacking. Things in Lovecraft's stories so often seem to be scary because he tells you they are, not because he actually demonstrates their terror.

What bothers me about this is that he demonstrated in his earlier works his ability to write genuinely horrifying tales, but seemed to abandon effective writing techniques in favor of bland narrative.

What about stories like The Rats in the Walls or Picman's Model? There are a plethora of Lovecraft stories that have nothing to do with the mythos. In fact, I think that after the creation of the mythos, Lovecraft started to love his own inventions too much, and became far more concerned with showing off his pantheon than with the quality of his stories.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not condemning the man by any means, I mean he invented a genre. My problem is that the stories within this genre are so often casts as horror, but it seems that "dark sci-fi" would be a more appropriate classification. His ideas are certainly frightening, but the execution is what is lacking. Things in Lovecraft's stories so often seem to be scary because he tells you they are, not because he actually demonstrates their terror.

What bothers me about this is that he demonstrated in his earlier works his ability to write genuinely horrifying tales, but seemed to abandon effective writing techniques in favor of bland narrative.

The Rats in the Walls and Picman's Model are my two favorite Lovecraft stories. And I do not think any of the Mythos stories would even make my favorite Lovecraft top 10. I do love the Mythos stuff but a lot of his other stories are much better IMO.

And on topic for this thread. It is going to be sooooo hard for me not to read the bestiary section of this book as I am currently a player in the path.

Alright, I know I'm probably going to catch hell for asking this, but why is Cthulu always regarded as the end-all-be-all ultimate evil and grand terror of Lovecraft? Frankly, I was a bit bored by the actual "Call of Cthulu" story, and I thought some of his most chilling tales were the ones written before the whole Cthulu Mythos.

I would say Nyarlathotep's the "end ll and be all ultimate evil" in Lovecraft, actaully... but Cthulhu has a lot more presence than him, mostly because he's the only one that ever had his name appear as an actual story title mostly. Having your name in the title of one of the most well-known of Lovecraft's stories AND having that same name be the name of the RPG that's been around for over 30 years helps an awful lot with the recognition and fame.

I would say Nyarlathotep's the "end ll and be all ultimate evil" in Lovecraft, actaully... but Cthulhu has a lot more presence than him, mostly because he's the only one that ever had his name appear as an actual story title mostly. Having your name in the title of one of the most well-known of Lovecraft's stories AND having that same name be the name of the RPG that's been around for over 30 years helps an awful lot with the recognition and fame.

Speaking of Nyarlathotep, Seems like a good time as any to drop this here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX6HKwOdGZg

I would say Nyarlathotep's the "end ll and be all ultimate evil" in Lovecraft, actaully... but Cthulhu has a lot more presence than him, mostly because he's the only one that ever had his name appear as an actual story title mostly. Having your name in the title of one of the most well-known of Lovecraft's stories AND having that same name be the name of the RPG that's been around for over 30 years helps an awful lot with the recognition and fame.

The short story "Nyarlathotep" is rather bizarre, even for Lovecraft, and belongs to the dream cycle. I believe I read that it was actually unfinished. Anyway, it's not surprising it's not more read.

Nyarlathotep's real role is in the culmination of the dream cycle, the Dream Quest. I always preferred him and that story to squidface and tCoC in terms of literary appeal.

I can't wait for this. Will we get the pdfs Monday? I'm nearly shaking with excitement! I love what Paizo has done with Lovecraft, even more than Monte's CoC d20. There's a lot more of the dream cycle in Golarion.

I can't wait for this. Will we get the pdfs Monday?

Typically the orders ship either Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday. It depends on what all you're receiving. For example, since you and I have the same subscriptions (Roleplaying, AP, and Campaign Setting), we'll be getting our stuff at around the same time, whenever that may be.

Needless to say, I too am very much hoping to have this tomorrow.

Can't wait for my copy to ship!

What if you live in eastern China? How long would it take to arrive then? I've just been waiting for the PDFs to become available, but I've wondered recently about singing up for the AP subscription.

What if you live in eastern China? How long would it take to arrive then? I've just been waiting for the PDFs to become available, but I've wondered recently about singing up for the AP subscription.

No idea, but it would be a bit ironic that the books are printed there and then shipped to the US and then they would in turn be shipped back to China to you. :)

From what some European costumers have said my guess is 2-3 weeks. I think the main killer for them in shipping costs, not sure about for China.

What if you live in eastern China? How long would it take to arrive then? I've just been waiting for the PDFs to become available, but I've wondered recently about singing up for the AP subscription.

I live in Korea and it takes up to 2-3 weeks usually. Tend to get the PDFs rather quickly though, but I suppose that is more based on what you order.

The short story "Nyarlathotep" is rather bizarre, even for Lovecraft, and belongs to the dream cycle. I believe I read that it was actually unfinished. Anyway, it's not surprising it's not more read.

Nyarlathotep's real role is in the culmination of the dream cycle, the Dream Quest. I always preferred him and that story to squidface and tCoC in terms of literary appeal.

That short story is one of the greatest depictions of the end of the world, far more apocalyptic than anything he wrote later on.

There are some good variant rules for Sanity (Called Stability) over on the Carrion Crown Forums that are worth a look if you do want to introduce that "San Blasting" feel to your games.

That short story is one of the greatest depictions of the end of the world, far more apocalyptic than anything he wrote later on.

** spoiler omitted **

I agree that it has amazing ambiance and its apocalyptic nature is superbly handled, but to me it always felt more like a nightmare than future fiction. It's also short, even for Lovecraft, if I recall correctly. It's a shame more of his dream fiction isn't read, but there it is. I always thought it would make for a great "weird animation" tv show.

I always like going on geek forums because they are the only places I can be sure to interact with someone else who's read the full canon :) And especially for this AP!

How do you turn The Colour Out Of Space into a module?

Try it and find out:

So, how did Paizo get permissions for Real Genuine HPL(tm)? I remember back in the day when TSR crossed Chaosium in the first printing of Deities and Demigods with the Mythos and Elric pantheons, that got yanked in the second printing. At that time, Chaosium had exclusive license rights for RPG usage of those properties.

So, either we've passed the magic copyright-checkpoint since then, or Paizo asked Chaosium nicely.

The entirety of Lovecraft's been public domain since 2004.

So, either we've passed the magic copyright-checkpoint since then, or Paizo asked Chaosium nicely.

A little bit of both, actually. As cappadocius mentioned above, Lovecraft has dropped into the public domain, but Paizo also goes out of their way to maintain a good relationship with Chaosium, plugging them and their game whenever possible. They even explicitly point people over to Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu RPG right in the middle of their print products, such as the Lovecraft-inspired Carrion Hill module.

but Paizo also goes out of their way to maintain a good relationship with Chaosium, plugging them and their game whenever possible.

This is important, because while Cthulhu is public domain, "Cthulhu as tubby, green, octopus-headed, tiny-winged, giant dude" is not, and that's some trade dress that is firmly and enthusiastically defended by Chaosium.

Shub-Niggurath? The ONLY thing we have from Lovecraft on that is the name. The debased fertility goddess cloud of hooves and vaginas is a Call of Cthulhu RPG creation, and without good relations with Chaosium, Paizo would have to recreate from scratch a Shub-Niggurath mythos. Better to spend that effort on Lamashtu and Rovagug, which PAIZO can own outright and make other people ask nicely to use.

I'm always interested in seeing how other companies dress up the ol' go-to monsters; Chaosium pretty much owns or has licensed all the distinctive well-known visualizations of these guys, so its a great exercise in creative interpretation of the texts.

This is important, because while Cthulhu is public domain, "Cthulhu as tubby, green, octopus-headed, tiny-winged, giant dude" is not, and that's some trade dress that is firmly and enthusiastically defended by Chaosium.

Above these apparent hieroglyphics was a figure of evidently pictorial intent, though its impressionistic execution forbade a very clear idea of its nature. It seemed to be a sort of monster, or symbol representing a monster, of a form which only a diseased fancy could conceive. If I say that my somewhat extravagant imagination yielded simultaneous pictures of an octopus, a dragon, and a human caricature, I shall not be unfaithful to the spirit of the thing. A pulpy, tentacled head surmounted a grotesque and scaly body with rudimentary wings; but it was the general outline of the whole which made it most shockingly frightful. Behind the figure was a vague suggestion of a Cyclopean architectural background.

Public domain.

Public domain.

Cthulhu in the 'popular' imagination is green, has a big round head, has bat-wings in addition to two arms and two legs, with two eyes and tentacles instead of a mouth. That is because that is how he is depicted in the Call of Cthulhu RPG

Not ONE of those traits is to be found explicitly in that description.

Later in the story, it is described as green, having flabby claws, a squid head, and

The Thing cannot be described—there is no language for such abysms of shrieking and immemorial lunacy, such eldritch contradictions of all matter, force, and cosmic order. A mountain walked or stumbled.

Still awfully vague.

Popular Imagination Cthulhu is Chaosium's baby. Cthulhu himself is not. Paizo's smart enough to walk that line, thankfully.

As folks have mentioned, Lovecraft's works are in the public domain. Other writers... not so much—that's why you won't see us do much about cthonians, Y'golonac, or Ithaqua—those names aren't in the public domain.

What we can (and DID) do with this particular volume, though, was get permission from the awesome folks at Chaosium to stat up a few creatures from the Call of Cthulhu game that are only obliquely mentioned in Lovecraft's writings. Things like the gnoph-keh and the dark young of Shub-Niggurath are almost wholly the invention of Chaosium, and stats for these creatures wouldn't have been possible without their blessing and permission. Other creatures, though, like the flying polyps or the colour out of space, are so well-detailed in a public domain source that anyone can tackle versions of them... but STILL it's nice to let Chaosium know what you're doing and get their blessing on such ventures.

(As for Cthulhu, you're forgetting all the carvings of Cthulhu that Lovecraft describes, cappadocius... some of which DO have things like arms, legs, and wings, and so on. He's actually one of the few Great Old Ones that Lovecraft DOES bother describing some of the physical and magical abilities of, and there's been illustrations of him in that form LONG before Chaosium came along. In fact, the cover to Arkham House's "The Dunwich Horror" from 40 some years ago does just that, although no bat wings in that one...)

As folks have mentioned, Lovecraft's works are in the public domain. ... What we can (and DID) do with this particular volume, though, was get permission from the awesome folks at Chaosium to stat up a few creatures from the Call of Cthulhu game that are only obliquely mentioned in Lovecraft's writings. ... but STILL it's nice to let Chaosium know what you're doing and get their blessing on such ventures.

Thank you James and everyone else for clarifying what's going on.

Also, as much as I like the Golem, i wonder if we'll ever see PaiZuZu. ;)

James Jacobs wrote:

As folks have mentioned, Lovecraft's works are in the public domain. ... What we can (and DID) do with this particular volume, though, was get permission from the awesome folks at Chaosium to stat up a few creatures from the Call of Cthulhu game that are only obliquely mentioned in Lovecraft's writings. ... but STILL it's nice to let Chaosium know what you're doing and get their blessing on such ventures.

Thank you James and everyone else for clarifying what's going on.

Also, as much as I like the Golem, i wonder if we'll ever see PaiZuZu. ;)

In addition to being a creature from real world mythology, Pazuzu is open contenta and you can glance at his winged glory as he appears in Book of Damned vol.2, Lords of Chaos.

Besides his mention in a few products (not the least is in AP#1) you should check this out.

edit: ninja'd by my favourite Bag of Devouring.

(As for Cthulhu, you're forgetting all the carvings of Cthulhu that Lovecraft describes, cappadocius... some of which DO have things like arms, legs, and wings, and so on.

Granted. Of course, I am of the firm belief that we gamers are too quick to accept as gospel, unvarnished truth the ravings (and carvings) of madmen that are virtually the definition of unreliable narrators.

Old Castro's degenerate Cthulhu Cult is the primary source of the idea of End Times and Stars Coming Right, but those have been writ large in the secondary and tertiary sources as the inevitable future of humanity for decades. Sources such as The Mound, At the Mountains of Madness, and The Shadow Out of Time paint a picture of a very different universe than the one those Louisiana cultists see. I expect Cthulhu itself isn't quite the squiddy horror of the idols or Johansen Narrative, either.

That said, taking The Call of Cthulhu as a whole does present a certain template on which we might project, royalty free, a big fat green dude with an octopus for a head. Even if he is trapped on Earth and has no right to be mucking about on Golarion. ;)

cappadocius, I dunno why you are so hung up on the popularized conception of Cthulhu being Chaosium IP, but artwork that isn't all that substantially different from many of their artwork has existed for decades before Chaosium ever became a company. Hell, Lovecraft himself drew a quick sketch that showed the world that his artistic talents were almost entirely literary. :P

Hell, Lovecraft himself drew a quick sketch that showed the world that his artistic talents were almost entirely literary. :P

Excellent point.

Here's a link to that sketch.

Looks like Lovecraft himself was fine with the fat humanoid octopus-headed bat-winged version of him. Can't get much more official than that!

Of course, I am of the firm belief that we gamers are too quick to accept as gospel, unvarnished truth the ravings (and carvings) of madmen that are virtually the definition of unreliable narrators.

Then why even bother reading Lovecraft's stories in the first place? I mean, if you can't "trust" the stories themselves... what's the point? I think you're overthinking the whole thing.

Actually, that's not true today. I think Pathfinder's the most elegant incarnation of those rules. And yes, I've updated my post-apocalyptic RPG "Unspeakable Futures" to be Pathfinder now—six folks get to try it out in a few weeks at PaizoCon, in fact.

I completely agree ... so when will we see "The Unspeakable Futures Core Rules" come out? It'd make an awesome holiday item ;)

cappadocius wrote:

Of course, I am of the firm belief that we gamers are too quick to accept as gospel, unvarnished truth the ravings (and carvings) of madmen that are virtually the definition of unreliable narrators.

Then why even bother reading Lovecraft's stories in the first place? I mean, if you can't "trust" the stories themselves... what's the point? I think you're overthinking the whole thing.

That's like asking why even bother to read the Chronicles of Amber because Corwin is an unreliable narrator, Mr. Jacobs. The unreliability or not of a character in a story is irrelevant to its quality as a story.

I'm not even disputing that, in the context of the story, the events we read about happened - exploding Cthulhu and all. I am disputing, and I believe we've gone around on this before, that the madman Old Castro reciting, essentially, the catechism of his faith about stars coming right; and holocausts of killing, and reveling, and joy; and the God-like power of Cthulhu is any different than an old Catholic priest talking about the blood of the lamb, and the Ascension of Christ, and the 2nd Coming. Sure, it's what he believes, but what makes Old Castro more reliable than the bas-reliefs of the Elder Things or the reports of Yiang-Li from 5000 AD, neither of which seem to think of Cthulhu as any worse than a cosmic Saddam Hussein or Xenu?

And even if we *do* accept the reliability of the narrators in Call of Cthulhu, we know that the mere sight of the High Priest of Yog-Sothoth will drive men mad or kill them from fright. Their idols and carvings can be nothing more than sidelong looks, glimpsed in a mirror, darkly.

My opposition, Kthulhu (to switch to another post mid-stream), stems from the standardization of Cthulhu, reducing it to a marketing icon, as stereotyped in appearance as Santa Claus or Charlie Brown.

That's like asking why even bother to read the Chronicles of Amber because Corwin is an unreliable narrator, Mr. Jacobs. The unreliability or not of a character in a story is irrelevant to its quality as a story.

(shrug)

Still feels to me like you're arguing just to argue. In any case, I'm not really interested in continuing said argument, since I don't really see the point.

Soooo ... any chance we'll see something in a Nightgaunt-ish form? ;)

Kevin.....wants.....Now.

Sketchpad wrote:

Soooo ... any chance we'll see something in a Nightgaunt-ish form? ;)

Chances of seeing the nightgaunt statted up in this volume's bestiary are 100% (although sans any connection to Nodens).

Always loved those guys, going back to the Grenadier CoC Creatures set.

Downloading like the fist of the north star.

Downloading like the fist of the north star.

Wha-wha-wha-wha-what!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Downloading like the fist of the north star.

I'm going for Nanto Seiken myself, but yeah, downloading too.

Alright, I know I'm probably going to catch hell for asking this, but why is Cthulu always regarded as the end-all-be-all ultimate evil and grand terror of Lovecraft? Frankly, I was a bit bored by the actual "Call of Cthulu" story, and I thought some of his most chilling tales were the ones written before the whole Cthulu Mythos.

You can actually thank the late August Derleth for that. He's the one who coined the term 'Cthulhu Mythos,' in a letter he wrote to HPL. Lovecraft's response was that the Hastur Mythos was a more apropo name for the collective entities from 'outside.' As an aside it wasn't Chaosium that sued over the use of the Cthulhu Mythos and Melnibonean Mythos in the 1st ed. Dieties and demigods, but Arkham House publishing (owner to the rights to HPLs work at the time, helmed by August Derleth) in regards to Cthulhu; and Michael Moorcock himself for copyright infringement over the Melnibonean mythos. These two lawsuits actually paved the way for Chaosium to then accquire the rights to both properties, since the, at the time big dog of the hobby gaming industry had blown it so badly that another chance to use the material would not be forth coming for quite some time (25 or 30 years to be precise)

Kthulhu wrote:

Hell, Lovecraft himself drew a quick sketch that showed the world that his artistic talents were almost entirely literary. :P

Excellent point.

Here's a link to that sketch.

Whoa. That sketch makes this photograph even more terrifying.

I do agree that it's odd that Cthulhu gets the most publicity, given that he's really a middle-level power in the Mythos. But hey, what u gonna do? That was one of the least of Derleth's crimes against the Mythos.

I do tend to call the whole the collectively just "the Mythos" or "the Lovecraft Mythos" (if I feel the need to be more specific). I feel that is more appropriate than calling it "the Cthulhu Mythos". Lovecraft himself used the term "Yog-Sothothery".

I do agree that it's odd that Cthulhu gets the most publicity, given that he's really a middle-level power in the Mythos. But hey, what u gonna do? That was one of the least of Derleth's crimes against the Mythos.

I do tend to call the whole the collectively just "the Mythos" or "the Lovecraft Mythos" (if I feel the need to be more specific). I feel that is more appropriate than calling it "the Cthulhu Mythos". Lovecraft himself used the term "Yog-Sothothery".

Again... it's the power of name recognition. The fact that "Cthulhu" is in the title of one of Lovecraft's more successful stories is key. As is the fact that in our little gamer microcosm the fact that his name is in the title of one of the oldest and most successful RPGs.

Personally, I prefer to call the whole thing the Lovecraft Mythos as well.

Downloading like the fist of the north star.

<shakes fist impotently> I want, too! :p

What about some Yog-Sothoth? Can we see some Yog-Sothoth in this volume?

What about some Yog-Sothoth? Can we see some Yog-Sothoth in this volume?

Yog-Sothoth is listed like any other thing your cleric can worship in here does that work?

martinaj wrote:

What about some Yog-Sothoth? Can we see some Yog-Sothoth in this volume?

Yog-Sothoth is listed like any other thing your cleric can worship in here does that work?

Yog-Sothoth is the Gate and the Key.

What about some Yog-Sothoth? Can we see some Yog-Sothoth in this volume?

*cough* Carrion Hill module! *cough*

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

Hell, Lovecraft himself drew a quick sketch that showed the world that his artistic talents were almost entirely literary. :P

Excellent point.

Here's a link to that sketch.

Wot's this?? A sketch of Great Cthulhu taking a cyclopean dump?! =:-o

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

I just finished reading this last night and I love it. It's an excellent homage to Lovecraft, and also doesn't step too much on the toes of "From Shore to Sea."

I have two small quibbles though: the picture of Illmarsh's mayor, specifically the necktie. Also, were I to run this, I'd definitely skip the part with the