Though a part of me shudders to wonder what succubi of Lamashtu and Jezelda look like. Sexy gnoll and werewolf demon-women?Well, succubi can look however you like.
Of course, if you're a follower of Lamashtu, you want monstrousities, so a gnoll might be the tamest option. Maybe Scylla without the charme.
And Jezela: Depends on what you feel like right now. Human-like? Animal-like? Hybrid-like? I think those succies can deliver.
I just wish I could find a GM as accomodating as this.
More seriously (and for the writers; no offense, KaeYoss) -- is this how succubi shapeshifting works? They can literally become any kind of humanoid, provided they can imagine it and/or see it in their dinner-date's mind?
Hm... Someone should update it.
And nice (?) to know we can still use the thaumaturge, eveb if it's a bit underpowered by Pathfinder standards.
I found a link here somewhere for an updated version; I'll go see if I can find it and bring it back. It's really a great update for the class.
EDIT: And here it is! Bring your demon-worshiping madman up to date!
http://www.scribd.com/Pathfinder-Beta-Thaumaturge/d/9350807
That was ... disturbing.
Though a part of me shudders to wonder what succubi of Lamashtu and Jezelda look like. Sexy gnoll and werewolf demon-women?Because you asked for it...
I think they're cute! Sort of a special all-gnoll issue of Girls of Golarion. ;)
I'd hit all three...preferably at once! ;-P
Slightly more seriously, I think that "reskinning" monsters to take some sort of variant appearances into account is a lot of fun. From owl-harpies to buzzard-and-puma griffons, it's a great way to customize monsters by some factor (e.g. they're from a different region, serve a different god, etc.).
I agree with this. Variant appearances can be a great way of throwing a surprise at your players.
More seriously (and for the writers; no offense, KaeYoss) -- is this how succubi shapeshifting works? They can literally become any kind of humanoid, provided they can imagine it and/or see it in their dinner-date's mind?
I'd definitely do it like this, or at least quite close. They do have detect thoughts, after all, and can change shape to any humanoid form.
More than one piece of art is pixelated at the edges, as if it was a lower-quality web version that ended up in the book. I'm thinking of the four pictures in the "Demonic Horde" chapter, on pages 55, 57, 59 and 61. Pazuzu, on page 23, looks somehow out-of-focus.Sadly, we didn't notice that on the digital proof, so we only found out about it when we got our first printed copies in. We're now looking for that issue specifically in all future products. (I think you identified all of the pages with the problem—it's not that bad, but it's not what we wanted to see.)
The PDF also seems to have some images with a lower resolution than what we are used to from earlier PDFs.
I finally got the book -- two days after it was shipped. Now that's service!
And I have got to say, it's not what I thought it would be. It's even better. Seriously, this tome is a more than worthy successor to 3.5 Demonomicon articles and Green Ronin's Book of Fiends (speaking of which, their sin-daemons would make great new demons for Pathfinder...).
And I love the info on demon cults, boons, and obediences. So many of them are so delightfully twisted and vile! One question though: can demons themselves take the feat Demonic Obedience in order to get access to demonic boons offered by demon lords and the goddess Lamashtu?
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I'd not thought about having a triune goddess, not sure who I'd include -- Iomedae's probably the obvious maiden, and Pharasma works as the crone; Lamashtu's a corrupted mother, but I'm not sure who fits the normal mother role, none of the major goddesses quite fit the bill.-Lamias are now apparently a creation of Lamashtu. Back in Rise of the Runelords, they were said to be prophets cursed by Pharasma.Lamashtu is just an aspect of Pharasma. It's like the Morrigan, or the Trinity.
I would put Iomedae in as the mother both because she's diametrically opposite Lamashtu and because Shelyn is the obvious maiden.
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Did anyone else notice the sneaky reference to Rise of the Runelords in this book? Specifically, the "Transformation Ritual"?
The first ritual involves serving a demon lord for a year... say, Lamashtu...
The second ritual involves offering a sacrifice to the demonic lord in the form of a living or dead family member, lawful or good preferred.. say, like a father that was buried outside the church he worked at...
Completing the second ritual can get you a cool demonic hand...
There's also a few points in the article where "burnt offerings" are mentioned.
Seems like a familiar aasimar servant of Lamashtu comes to mind. :D
Did anyone else notice the sneaky reference to Rise of the Runelords in this book? Specifically, the "Transformation Ritual"?
The first ritual involves serving a demon lord for a year... say, Lamashtu...
The second ritual involves offering a sacrifice to the demonic lord in the form of a living or dead family member, lawful or good preferred.. say, like a father that was buried outside the church he worked at...
Completing the second ritual can get you a cool demonic hand...
There's also a few points in the article where "burnt offerings" are mentioned.
Seems like a familiar aasimar servant of Lamashtu comes to mind. :D
Heh, same scenario came to mind when I was reading this treasure. I do love how even bits of a background story can make into a product years later as a springboard for something new.
And I have got to say, it's not what I thought it would be. It's even better. Seriously, this tome is a more than worthy successor to 3.5 Demonomicon articles and Green Ronin's Book of Fiends (speaking of which, their sin-daemons would make great new demons for Pathfinder...).
I like the continuation of the heretical texts that are scattered between chapters. And the deliciously contradictory creation stories. Now that's fuel for a few proper holy wars!
I like how the devils say that their master was before everything, but the demons say that the Abyss existed even before the Proteans found the Qlippoths. And, of course, the Proteans maintain that the Cerulean Void is before everything, and after everything, and beyond everything. Everyone has their own option, and all those options are mutually exclusive.
And the Qlippoths are deliciously vile and chthonic!
And I love the info on demon cults, boons, and obediences. So many of them are so delightfully twisted and vile! One question though: can demons themselves take the feat Demonic Obedience in order to get access to demonic boons offered by demon lords and the goddess Lamashtu?
Yes, they definitely can. The feat doesn't say anything that you can't be a demon, and some of the obediences and boons even mentioning demons and them getting some special treatments when they get these benefits.
Did anyone else notice the sneaky reference to Rise of the Runelords in this book? Specifically, the "Transformation Ritual"?
[...]
Seems like a familiar aasimar servant of Lamashtu comes to mind. :D
Nothing gets past you, it seems.
Except the picture on page 42, it seems...
Creative Director
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I have a question to James:
Yhidothrus = Kyuss, right ? :)
No.
They're certainly similar, but Kyuss was not a demon. Yhidothrus is. Yhidothrus is a LOT less humanoid than Kyuss ever was. In fact... it might make sense if you're into ret-conning to make Kyuss a worshiper of Yhidothrus back in the day.
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Did anyone else notice the sneaky reference to Rise of the Runelords in this book? Specifically, the "Transformation Ritual"?
I never thought of this as a sneaky reference to Rise of the Runelords. The person you're talking about using this ritual is, after all illustrated on page 42 of "Lords of Chaos."
So I got the book, and I enjoy it. One thing is bugging me though. The final boon from Kabriri... You get the type and everything... But you don't get the special abilities?
Also there's no way to return to that way if you get killed like that, is there? Seems kinda... Weak if you lose the boon if you die once, which is alot easier with no buffer of a con score...
Urgathoa is not a demon lord she is an actual deity.
AP 28 : The Infernal Syndrome
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AP 28 : The Infernal Syndrome
Well, I bought the Lords of the Abyss PDF already. It's a nice looking book and I'm sure I'll find a way to make use of it. On the other hand, I'm VERY disappointed and upset that I should have to go buy AP 28 to get the rules on demonic possession. I think that's completely unfair - it should have been in Lords of the Abyss. Plenty of content has been recycled in Pathfinder books. Why not these rules? Instead, I'll customize the possession rules from Fiendish Codex I, Hordes of the Abyss (WotC, 3.5). I'm a huge Paizo fan and they really let me down.
AP 28 : The Infernal SyndromeWell, I bought the Lords of the Abyss PDF already. It's a nice looking book and I'm sure I'll find a way to make use of it. On the other hand, I'm VERY disappointed and upset that I should have to go buy AP 28 to get the rules on demonic possession. I think that's completely unfair - it should have been in Lords of the Abyss. Plenty of content has been recycled in Pathfinder books. Why not these rules? Instead, I'll customize the possession rules from Fiendish Codex I, Hordes of the Abyss (WotC, 3.5). I'm a huge Paizo fan and they really let me down.
Did they really let you down? Personally, I'd rather pay for new content. Especially given that I can do this:
Pathfinder Rules for Possession
Since the rules content is OGL, all I have to do is strip out the opening paragraphs of Golarion-specific content.
Now to look at the FCI rules for possession and see how they compare. By the way, don't forget all the stuff in Ghostwalk (but for the most part that's aimed at ghosts).
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AP 28 : The Infernal SyndromeWell, I bought the Lords of the Abyss PDF already. It's a nice looking book and I'm sure I'll find a way to make use of it. On the other hand, I'm VERY disappointed and upset that I should have to go buy AP 28 to get the rules on demonic possession. I think that's completely unfair - it should have been in Lords of the Abyss. Plenty of content has been recycled in Pathfinder books. Why not these rules? Instead, I'll customize the possession rules from Fiendish Codex I, Hordes of the Abyss (WotC, 3.5). I'm a huge Paizo fan and they really let me down.
The material on fiend possession should apply to ALL fiends. Not just demons. As such, it wouldn't be fair to put it in a book that's all about demons... ESPECIALLY when said book is more about demon lords than it is just about demons themselves.
Lords of Chaos uses the demoniac prestige class as its version of demonic possession.
Pathfinder #28 presents rules for possession from ALL sorts of evil outsiders. Those rules would even work for possession from ANY sort of creature with very little work. Those rules are also several pages long, and at a mere 64 pages, a book like "Lords of Chaos" which is supposed to be focusing on those Lords of Chaos wouldn't have the room to do the topic justice.
So... sorry you feel ripped off, but we didn't make these decisions just to spite you. There were specific reasons we put those rules where we put them.
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AP 28 : The Infernal SyndromeWell, I bought the Lords of the Abyss PDF already. It's a nice looking book and I'm sure I'll find a way to make use of it. On the other hand, I'm VERY disappointed and upset that I should have to go buy AP 28 to get the rules on demonic possession. I think that's completely unfair - it should have been in Lords of the Abyss. Plenty of content has been recycled in Pathfinder books. Why not these rules? Instead, I'll customize the possession rules from Fiendish Codex I, Hordes of the Abyss (WotC, 3.5). I'm a huge Paizo fan and they really let me down.The material on fiend possession should apply to ALL fiends. Not just demons. As such, it wouldn't be fair to put it in a book that's all about demons... ESPECIALLY when said book is more about demon lords than it is just about demons themselves.
Lords of Chaos uses the demoniac prestige class as its version of demonic possession.
Pathfinder #28 presents rules for possession from ALL sorts of evil outsiders. Those rules would even work for possession from ANY sort of creature with very little work. Those rules are also several pages long, and at a mere 64 pages, a book like "Lords of Chaos" which is supposed to be focusing on those Lords of Chaos wouldn't have the room to do the topic justice.
So... sorry you feel ripped off, but we didn't make these decisions just to spite you. There were specific reasons we put those rules where we put them.
I don't feel ripped-off or that it was done to spite me. That's putting words in my mouth. In fact, I would buy Lords of Chaos again. I still don't feel a GM should have to buy a single installment of an adventure path just to get the rules on possession. I don't doubt they appear in AP #28 for a reason, but these rules should also be in a rules book. Please accept this haiku as a peace offering:
James Jacobs flamed me
Nocticula's burning hoof
broken in my bum
Removed some posts and their replies. Please follow the rules of the boards, thanks!
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Although there were a few removed posts... there is something I'd like to address from them and a few recent reviews.
I want to do stat blocks for the demon lords. In fact, that's the #1 reason I want Paizo to figure out what to do with post-20th level games.
If we decide to do something with this someday, stats for demon lords will be VERY soon in following; they'll be set up as the toughest bad guys to fight for post 20th level games, just as Nascent Demon Lords, the tarrasque, solars, titans, and the like are set up as the tough foes in the core game.
If we decide NOT to do something with post 20th play, then I'll probably start statting up the Demon Lords in the same way I built them for the Demonomicon articles in Dragon Magazine—they'll mostly be around CR 30 and in order to fight one, you'll need to probably be both 20th level and have a lot of extra help—see "Prince of Demons" in Dungeon #150 as an example.
Since we still haven't made that decisions (yes or no on post 20th rules), I can't responsibly make one of the above two choices yet. That's pretty much the ONLY reason there weren't stats for demon lords or arch devils in the Books of the Damned (although if we HAD put stats in there, fitting even half of the text we do have in there would have been a tricky stunt).
Anyway... if you really do need stats for demon lords, my suggestion is to check out the Demonomicon articles; those had demon lords statted up from CR 24 to 32. In particular, check out the article I wrote in the last issue of Dragon, #359, because it has a pretty extensive set of guidelines for folks to build their OWN demon lords. Which still works fine for Pathfinder.
Although there were a few removed posts... there is something I'd like to address from them and a few recent reviews.
I want to do stat blocks for the demon lords. In fact, that's the #1 reason I want Paizo to figure out what to do with post-20th level games.
If we decide to do something with this someday, stats for demon lords will be VERY soon in following; they'll be set up as the toughest bad guys to fight for post 20th level games, just as Nascent Demon Lords, the tarrasque, solars, titans, and the like are set up as the tough foes in the core game.
If we decide NOT to do something with post 20th play, then I'll probably start statting up the Demon Lords in the same way I built them for the Demonomicon articles in Dragon Magazine—they'll mostly be around CR 30 and in order to fight one, you'll need to probably be both 20th level and have a lot of extra help—see "Prince of Demons" in Dungeon #150 as an example.
Since we still haven't made that decisions (yes or no on post 20th rules), I can't responsibly make one of the above two choices yet. That's pretty much the ONLY reason there weren't stats for demon lords or arch devils in the Books of the Damned (although if we HAD put stats in there, fitting even half of the text we do have in there would have been a tricky stunt).
Anyway... if you really do need stats for demon lords, my suggestion is to check out the Demonomicon articles; those had demon lords statted up from CR 24 to 32. In particular, check out the article I wrote in the last issue of Dragon, #359, because it has a pretty extensive set of guidelines for folks to build their OWN demon lords. Which still works fine for Pathfinder.
There is already post-20th level OGL rules available. Just "fix" them the way you have everything else and voila! Psionics too. The 3.5 psionics were finally balanced and playable. The epic stuff just needs some Paizo tweaking.
There is already post-20th level OGL rules available. Just "fix" them the way you have everything else and voila! Psionics too. The 3.5 psionics were finally balanced and playable. The epic stuff just needs some Paizo tweaking.Although there were a few removed posts... there is something I'd like to address from them and a few recent reviews.
I want to do stat blocks for the demon lords. In fact, that's the #1 reason I want Paizo to figure out what to do with post-20th level games.
If we decide to do something with this someday, stats for demon lords will be VERY soon in following; they'll be set up as the toughest bad guys to fight for post 20th level games, just as Nascent Demon Lords, the tarrasque, solars, titans, and the like are set up as the tough foes in the core game.
If we decide NOT to do something with post 20th play, then I'll probably start statting up the Demon Lords in the same way I built them for the Demonomicon articles in Dragon Magazine—they'll mostly be around CR 30 and in order to fight one, you'll need to probably be both 20th level and have a lot of extra help—see "Prince of Demons" in Dungeon #150 as an example.
Since we still haven't made that decisions (yes or no on post 20th rules), I can't responsibly make one of the above two choices yet. That's pretty much the ONLY reason there weren't stats for demon lords or arch devils in the Books of the Damned (although if we HAD put stats in there, fitting even half of the text we do have in there would have been a tricky stunt).
Anyway... if you really do need stats for demon lords, my suggestion is to check out the Demonomicon articles; those had demon lords statted up from CR 24 to 32. In particular, check out the article I wrote in the last issue of Dragon, #359, because it has a pretty extensive set of guidelines for folks to build their OWN demon lords. Which still works fine for Pathfinder.
Because a lot of the community don't like them. Fair or not, it is the truth. I would like to see support for both in the future, beyond a one and done book. So Paizo needs to get a larger chunk of the audience to want to use them, before they put them out.
Anyway... if you really do need stats for demon lords, my suggestion is to check out the Demonomicon articles; those had demon lords statted up from CR 24 to 32. In particular, check out the article I wrote in the last issue of Dragon, #359, because it has a pretty extensive set of guidelines for folks to build their OWN demon lords. Which still works fine for Pathfinder.
This.
Plus, it was one of my favorite articles ever in the Dragon. I find it no coincidence that that article and the one on hauntings are two of my favorites. Now if only there was something similar for the qlippoths - I don't want to use the same rules because the qlippoths really ought to be something different ...
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There is already post-20th level OGL rules available. Just "fix" them the way you have everything else and voila! Psionics too. The 3.5 psionics were finally balanced and playable. The epic stuff just needs some Paizo tweaking.
The epic rules need a lot more than Paizo tweaking. Same for psionics. If they only needed a little bit of tweaking, we would have been using the SRD content for BOTH of those years ago.
There is already post-20th level OGL rules available. Just "fix" them the way you have everything else and voila! Psionics too. The 3.5 psionics were finally balanced and playable. The epic stuff just needs some Paizo tweaking.The epic rules need a lot more than Paizo tweaking. Same for psionics. If they only needed a little bit of tweaking, we would have been using the SRD content for BOTH of those years ago.
+1
Much as I'm enjoying the game we're playing, I know full well that we're using the rules very carefully to play a very specific campaign. As a set of general rules, the above-21 rules need some help.
As for psionics ... well, I've never really seen a psionics system I liked. I don't like "psionics is magic," for if that's the case, why bother? And the current WoTC system pretty much amounts to a duplication of the magic system with certain things in favor of the psionic character, certain things in favor of the magic-wielding character, and a number of odd limitations (such as needing psionic focus to use metapsionics). It just feels like Yet Another Magic System to me.
If we decide NOT to do something with post 20th play
Please don't say this like it's an option, James. :(
I have seen it said by more than one from Paizo (including yourself) that post 20th play is probably inevitable. Has that changed now?
The two biggest problems with the epic rules that I saw were the ridiculously high price of epic items and the assumption that much gold was lying around to be found and the epic magic system.
Properly scale the one and replace the other with...really cool high-level words of power?
The two biggest problems with the epic rules that I saw were the ridiculously high price of epic items and the assumption that much gold was lying around to be found and the epic magic system.Properly scale the one and replace the other with...really cool high-level words of power?
Moving past 20th level is often associated with moving toward ascencion (sainthood, demigodhood, etc.). Have them start developing supernatural / spelllike abilities appropriate to their class. Moving slowly towards being an Outsider with the final levels completing the process (my game has numerous saints / demigods in the various pantheons -- that would certainly give players an end game worth shooting for). That makes more sense to me than heaping a new magic system on top of the old. Have epic feats (including metamagic specials) as well as continuing to increase abilities. Stop the BAB / # of attacks. Maybe increase the number of spells for casters (but nothing over level 9). My 2 cp.
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If we decide NOT to do something with post 20th playPlease don't say this like it's an option, James. :(
I have seen it said by more than one from Paizo (including yourself) that post 20th play is probably inevitable. Has that changed now?
Every day that passes without us doing post-20th-level rules not only brings us closer to it happening as a possibility, but also closer to the point where it's not really worth doing. Where those two possibilities converge in the future, I can't say.
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The two biggest problems with the epic rules that I saw were the ridiculously high price of epic items and the assumption that much gold was lying around to be found and the epic magic system.
Properly scale the one and replace the other with...really cool high-level words of power?
eew... Hope not. Words of power are already, in my opinion, too complicated. NOT the way to go to make post-20th play easier and more attractive.
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Moving past 20th level is often associated with moving toward ascencion (sainthood, demigodhood, etc.). Have them start developing supernatural / spelllike abilities appropriate to their class. Moving slowly towards being an Outsider with the final levels completing the process (my game has numerous saints / demigods in the various pantheons -- that would certainly give players an end game worth shooting for).
That may be how many people have played, but I personally find it rather distasteful. I don't think you should be able to obtain the spark of divinity just by killing mamssive quantities of orcs. Likewise, I don't see why killing hordes of kobolds should make you more attuned to one of the Outer planes than to the Material plane.
To use Golarion as an example, there's absolutely no need to make merely achieving a high level the path to divinity, as there's a perfectly good major artifact that already does this, the Starstone. I dunno, I think that ascension should be more than just a reward for being an adventurer and managing to not be killed.
I think Paizo should put out a high-level sourcebook, covering levels 12-20, and introduce their "epic" system as being basically E20 (ie, E6 adapted upwards to support 20 levels instead of 6). This prevents quite a few problems that levels 21+ would create, such as the (supposedly) great powers of the multiverse becoming cannon fodder for super-high level characters. After all, if you're a stupidly high level cleric of Desna, at what point does it change from her granting you spells to you granting her spells? :P
I think Paizo should put out a high-level sourcebook, covering levels 12-20, and introduce their "epic" system as being basically E20 (ie, E6 adapted upwards to support 20 levels instead of 6). This prevents quite a few problems that levels 21+ would create, such as the (supposedly) great powers of the multiverse becoming cannon fodder for super-high level characters. After all, if you're a stupidly high level cleric of Desna, at what point does it change from her granting you spells to you granting her spells? :P
Ah, the old E6/E20/E(whatever) chestnut :)
Personally, I'm just looking forward to James' Apocrypha article from the Dragon, but translated to Pathfinder. Now THAT will be cool.
However, it's not likely to be in time for my current campaign, from the sound of it :(
Why not do what the 3.5 DMG (sort of) did? Let's say we add a 10-level cap so you can advance to level 30. Keep spells maxed out at 9th level -they are powerful enough. Introduce high-level feats like Improved Spell Capacity so that you can have metamagic effects in "10th level+" slots. That doesn't break anything (because only 30 levels means you can only take it so far), it doesn't introduce any clunky new rules, and allows you to use existing OGL materials which reduces developement time. Add a few prestige classes requiring you to be at least level 20 and you have a simple high level option.
I hate the idea that this idea might be dropped. There really is an interest in it if it's well done. And we know that Paizo does everything well.
Why not do what the 3.5 DMG (sort of) did? Let's say we add a 10-level cap so you can advance to level 30. Keep spells maxed out at 9th level -they are powerful enough. Introduce high-level feats like Improved Spell Capacity so that you can have metamagic effects in "10th level+" slots. That doesn't break anything (because only 30 levels means you can only take it so far), it doesn't introduce any clunky new rules, and allows you to use existing OGL materials which reduces developement time. Add a few prestige classes requiring you to be at least level 20 and you have a simple high level option.
I hate the idea that this idea might be dropped. There really is an interest in it if it's well done. And we know that Paizo does everything well.
It won't get dropped. James is dying to stat up some of the nasty demon lords and the like, plus a certain Dark Tapestry figure.
All of the cagey "well, we could drop it, you never know!" stuff makes me think it might be sooner than we realize - though I do think we'll see a high level GameMastery Guide before we see an epic level GameMastery Guide.
All of the cagey "well, we could drop it, you never know!" stuff makes me think it might be sooner than we realize - though I do think we'll see a high level GameMastery Guide before we see an epic level GameMastery Guide.
I really hope you are right. I've been pretty confident for awhile we would eventually see an epic (mythic) book, but coming from it being 'inevitable' to James started giving the "if we don't do the book" or "the longer we wait, there is also that chance it makes it less worthwhile", makes me a bit hesitant now.
I do agree though that if Paizo starts to focus on higher level content, it would be a great idea to come out with that 15-20 level content, first. Would be a great intro.
But the only thing we can do is wait and see.
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It won't get dropped. James is dying to stat up some of the nasty demon lords and the like, plus a certain Dark Tapestry figure.
I see that as more of a reason NOT to give players the option to head off to levels infinity...and beyond. Because let's face it, if they put out a book that covers levels 21-30, it will only be a few months before the same discussions crop up again, except regarding levels 31+ instead of levels 21+. And if you stat up what's supposed to be the biggest baddest demon lord in the multiverse, and then provide rules for characters that can grow far beyond in in power, suddenly you have the character who's got the biggest baddest demon lord in the multiverse on a leash as his personal shoe-shine boy.
So it makes sense to have a hard cap somewhere. We've already got rules for character levels 1-20. So wouldn't it make sense for that hard cap to be 20?
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It won't get dropped. James is dying to stat up some of the nasty demon lords and the like, plus a certain Dark Tapestry figure.
All of the cagey "well, we could drop it, you never know!" stuff makes me think it might be sooner than we realize - though I do think we'll see a high level GameMastery Guide before we see an epic level GameMastery Guide.
Actually... while most of what I want to do happens here at Paizo... not everything does. No hardcover Tian Xia book, for example. And it took an extra 3 years to get Jade Regent off the ground.
Support and interest from lots of potential customers is the BEST way to convince us to do any book. Alas, support and interest from a smaller subset of customers is not. It's a battle, that's for sure!
(still crossing fingers for Mythic Level rules)