Announced!
@ Reviewer.
Its going to be pretty hard to avoid everything by Greg Vaughn.
I'm really curious what happened to that group. On what disaster did the reviewer base his conclusions?
I haven't read or played this one yet, but it was run at NeonCon and I don't remember any howls of despair and frustration.
Director of Brand Strategy
|
I'm really curious what happened to that group. On what disaster did the reviewer base his conclusions?
I haven't read or played this one yet, but it was run at NeonCon and I don't remember any howls of despair and frustration.
Yeah, I'm sort of curious for more details myself. It's my job, after all, to reign in the deadly force of evil that is Greg Vaughan.
heh, heh. I think that review has inspired me to write. :-)
That review not only inspired me to purchase everything Vaughan has ever written, but to create an unholy shrine to his creativity!
Ia! Ia! Vaughan!
Yeah, I'm sort of curious for more details myself. It's my job, after all, to reign in the deadly force of evil that is Greg Vaughan.I'm really curious what happened to that group. On what disaster did the reviewer base his conclusions?
I haven't read or played this one yet, but it was run at NeonCon and I don't remember any howls of despair and frustration.
*sigh*. It was a table I ran at U-Con. I'm on my phone now, I can fill in more details later, but they were a table if three 5's and three 8's, and I rolled NINE natural 20's in only 2 encounters. (claw, claw, bite, rend... rinse and repeat)
"Vaughn-an, what is best in life?"
"To crush the Pathfinders, see their character sheets rent before you, and hear the lamentation of the players!"
"That is good."
NINE natural 20s! OUCH!
Hey man, you're ruining my buzz.I'm really curious what happened to that group. On what disaster did the reviewer base his conclusions?
I haven't read or played this one yet, but it was run at NeonCon and I don't remember any howls of despair and frustration.
Ah, so you really are all about killing as many characters as you possibly can with hyper-optimized monsters? Good to know. I'm so glad that it gives you a thrill - we didn't enjoy either of your scenarios.
This reviewer based HER conclusions on a TPK in a dungeon where the only way out is to defeat the final boss. I purchased the scenario after the debacle, and based my review on reading it after our disappointing experience. It wasn't just about the GM's unholy dice luck (though that didn't help) - it was about what seems to me to be a very deliberate design decision to kill characters who turn out to be underpowered. They were smart enough to flee - they simply weren't allowed to.
It does appear that you're very pleased with your design choices. I wish you joy of them. It's not the kind of experience I'd come to enjoy playing Pathfinder since the beginning of the campaign. If it's indicative (as it seems to be, based on Mark's response) of the overall campaign design and direction I'm afraid I'll be parting ways with Pathfinder.
I'm not just whining because I lost a beloved character, though that does factor into it, I'm also very unhappy with the Gygaxian approach used in the construction of the dungeon crawl. It's not fun for me.
I stand by my one star review, and will indeed be avoiding the author's works in the future unless I hear a decent review from someone whose judgment I respect.
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
This reviewer based HER conclusions on a TPK in a dungeon where the only way out is to defeat the final boss. I purchased the scenario after the debacle, and based my review on reading it after our disappointing experience. It wasn't just about the GM's unholy dice luck (though that didn't help) - it was about what seems to me to be a very deliberate design decision to kill characters who turn out to be underpowered. They were smart enough to flee - they simply weren't allowed to.
It does appear that you're very pleased with your design choices. I wish you joy of them. It's not the kind of experience I'd come to enjoy playing Pathfinder since the beginning of the campaign. If it's indicative (as it seems to be, based on Mark's response) of the overall campaign design and direction I'm afraid I'll be parting ways with Pathfinder.
I'm not just whining because I lost a beloved character, though that does factor into it, I'm also very unhappy with the Gygaxian approach used in the construction of the dungeon crawl. It's not fun for me.
Thanks for the more detailed explanation of what you didn't like, Jae. This is useful feedback and I appreciate your candor. As much as we like to hear what people like about scenarios, hearing what doesn't work is perhaps even more productive.
Ah, so you really are all about killing as many characters as you possibly can with hyper-optimized monsters? Good to know. I'm so glad that it gives you a thrill - we didn't enjoy either of your scenarios.
While I haven't played or run all of Greg's adventures, I've dealt with him on a number of occasions. I am 100% confident that the last thing he would want would be to give someone an unpleasant gaming experience. In my experience, Greg Vaughan is a thorough gentleman who wants to give his fellow gamers a challenging and exciting game.
This reviewer based HER conclusions on a TPK in a dungeon where the only way out is to defeat the final boss.
I also apologize for the gender mixup there.
It does appear that you're very pleased with your design choices. I wish you joy of them. It's not the kind of experience I'd come to enjoy playing Pathfinder since the beginning of the campaign. If it's indicative (as it seems to be, based on Mark's response) of the overall campaign design and direction, I'm afraid I'll be parting ways with Pathfinder.
Greg's scenarios can be tough on PCs. If the party lacks certain skills or abilities, a few of them could fairly be described as deadly. I wouldn't recommend a group playing them to ever "play up". Despite this, I've never had any impression that Greg wants to be less than fair with the challenges he presents.
- James MacKenzie
Nine natural 20s in 2 encounters...that is mind-blowing. That could've ended the whole ball game right there.
How many crits were scored in those two encounters?
To JaeWalker -
I'm Kevin J. Wright, Greg's co-author on this trilogy of scenarios. My adventure-writing naivete (charming though it may be) may be to blame for the difficulty of the adventures. I was just trying to match up appropriate CRs with the level of the adventures, but that can be tricky. One CR 5 is not the same as every other CR 5, and in my inexperience, I may have put too many difficult encounters together. So my apologies if it was ruthlessly lethal.
Much love,
Kevin
|
This module has an unidentified, undisclosed trap with no Search DC, no Disable DC, and no saving throw -- and that is flagrantly unfair. This is a trap that the players don't even know is triggered unless they try to leave the dungeon, and if the players do not complete the module in the allotted time this trap means automatic death for the entire party -- summary TPK. This module also has puzzles. Puzzles are a serious time sink, making it likely that players will fail to finish the module before the slot's time is up, and all their characters are then declared dead. Worse still, one of these puzzles is pointless and has no immediate solution or consequence, making it still more likely that the party will fruitlessly waste time, fail to finish the module, and have their characters summarily executed off stage at the end of the slot.
In detail:
Though not specifically indicated, the trigger for this trap seems to be location based, but there is nothing the players ever hear from the DM that might tell them that there's a massive door that's going to close. In the box text that one might charitably say is related to the passage closing there is a bad guy issuing threats, but absolutely NOTHING that directly says,"You are approaching a point of no return. Turn back now or else you're going to be locked in here with no chance of escape." If you're going to have this kind of module, where the party is going to be trapped and forced to finish or die, then you absolutely MUST have an explicit and unambiguous sign of the point of no return and give players a chance to reconsider. To do otherwise is simply mean, and this module did otherwise.
When a trap is triggered two things always do happen, or always should happen and until this module always did happen in my experience: 1.) the players know that something has happened, that the trap has been triggered, and 2.) the players get some sort of dice roll to determine if they are affected, usually a saving throw of some sort. This saving throw is appropriate to the level of the players, and either negates or diminishes the effect of the trap.
The trigger in this case seems to be an NPC reaching a certain point in a box text monologue. When the trap is triggered there is absolutely no indication that anything is happening at all -- no rumbling and shuddering stone from the direction of the dungeon's entrance, no maniacal laughter from an NPC who tells the characters that now they're trapped, nothing! There is no saving throw! The players are all affected completely, and without any possibility to avoid the danger.
The work-around is not level appropriate; it's DC 40 in an uncommon skill whether you're 5th level or 9th. At DC 40 for the Use Magic Device skill, the work-around method of escape absolutely, 100%, no munchkin can save you now, impossible. That this trap exists or that it's been triggered is passively injected in text meant for the DM alone, as if the author is letting the DM in on the joke that's being played on the party, without so much as the merest suggestion that the PC's should be notified.
So, invariably, the PC's trundle blithely forward, unaware of the dire shift in their circumstances, which is the biggest injustice of this entire module. When the massive stone door slides shut in an adventure movie, it's always done with the audience and the characters watching. It happens on camera. This is for a reason. Players who know their characters are screwed will act differently than if they still think it's business as usual. If the party knows there is no point in retreating, they will not try to retreat and will act more boldly and decisively. If they know they have to complete the adventure within the allotted time or else their characters die, they tend not to dawdle. Players deserve the chance to know they're screwed and act accordingly.
The fact that the author fails to write into the module the revelation of the closed door to the part is why I say that regardless of the authors stated intent, designing this dungeon in this way clearly demonstrates contempt for the players. This dungeon is designed to kill whole parties of characters and that has nothing to do with how GM's happen to run this adventure, how the dice turn up, or how players play it. It is designed to kill the party off stage if they don't die at the hands of the monsters and NPC's first.
This contempt is further revealed in ACT 2, where regarding a riddle the players encounter the author writes, and I quote:"The riddle he has given may frustrate the PCs to some extent as it is actually no riddle at all but rather provides a hint to the answer to the final riddle in Act 6; that is the 'riddle within the riddle.' Regardless of what kind of answer the PCs come up with, nothing happens and eventually they must leave the room." Why does an author write a module in a way he knows will frustrate players and consume time? In practical effect it does frustrate players, and they blow a lot of time trying to figure out a puzzle and they loose time to complete the quest before the DM calls "time's up" and "you're all dead."
I don't know of any precedent in PFS for this kind of module, one where the players are trapped in the dungeon with no chance of escape and automatic death unless you finish. I can't imagine there are any other such modules. Regardless, I really don't think Paizo should tolerate any such modules being written. If Paizo is going to continue to publish deathtrap modules like this one, I don't know why anyone would feel the need to keep playing in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. It as much as tells their customers that "even though you've been loyal to our product for all the time you've taken to play your character to this level, you should know that we might just decide to rip up your character sheet and throw it away without warning, sucker!"
How did this module ever get through Paizo's editorial staff without seeing the trap and recognizing its potential for a dramatically bad, and intently unfair player experience?
I realize that this module is only 3.99 but with Christmas coming up I don't feel I can buy it. And based on the reviews I really want it. I love to challenge my players with some really out of the dungeon thinking. And they are just as happy to overcome the challenges of the dungeon and win the day yet again. And if it Gygaxian in any way (even green demon instant die no save, God bless him) I'm even more on board.
The worst part is, this module is a three-parter. This part sounds great and the last part has two new monsters in it in addition to a continuation of this adventure.
Maybe I can sell some plasma and pick up all three parts....
|
World I feel the same way. No way i can afford it right now. But I am a fan of Greg's style of adventures. Yes they can be very brutal, but I like that, as does my group. So far I haven't been disappointed with a Greg adventure I have bought. After I get this, likely after the holidays, I will do my own review.
VAAUUUGGGHHHHAANNN!!!!!!!!
You are all fools! Greg A. Vaughan is the antichrist of RPGs. He cares nothing for your tawdry little concerns that you call existence. He lives but to slay and creates but to destroy. A dunk tank, you say? Nay! But rather a vat of acid in which to dissolve the stain of crapulence that is Greg A. Vaughan.
|
|
You are all fools! Greg A. Vaughan is the antichrist of RPGs. He cares nothing for your tawdry little concerns that you call existence. He lives but to slay and creates but to destroy. A dunk tank, you say? Nay! But rather a vat of acid in which to dissolve the stain of crapulence that is Greg A. Vaughan.
You make him sound all kinds of sexy. Maybe I should recruit him into the ranks of the Demon Princes. Since my Big Daddy Orcus has become focused on other worlds for now.
After I get this ... I will do my own review.
Get to it! ;-)
Water my bank account. :)After I get this ... I will do my own review.Get to it! ;-)
Obviously you should check your downloads first..
Wa? How did that happen?
How did what happen?
|
|
Yes, you can buy PDFs as gifts for other people. Add the PDF to your cart and check the "Show gift options during checkout" checkbox next to the "Proceed to Checkout" button.
Huh learn something new every day.
@Kyle Baird - Well thank you, since I assume you are the one that bought them for me. I have no idea why but thank you.
|
Yes, you can buy PDFs as gifts for other people. Add the PDF to your cart and check the "Show gift options during checkout" checkbox next to the "Proceed to Checkout" button.Huh learn something new every day.
@Kyle Baird - Well thank you, since I assume you are the one that bought them for me. I have no idea why but thank you.
I think it's because everyone appreciates your reviews. You put a lot of thought and effort into them. This scenario is being judged by a single bad outcome, and maybe Kyle would like someone to take a fresh look at it.
|
|
I think it's because everyone appreciates your reviews. You put a lot of thought and effort into them. This scenario is being judged by a single bad outcome, and maybe Kyle would like someone to take a fresh look at it.Yes, you can buy PDFs as gifts for other people. Add the PDF to your cart and check the "Show gift options during checkout" checkbox next to the "Proceed to Checkout" button.Huh learn something new every day.
@Kyle Baird - Well thank you, since I assume you are the one that bought them for me. I have no idea why but thank you.
I think thats going a bit far, either that or that is a lot more crazy people than I thought on this forum. :)
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
Yes, you can buy PDFs as gifts for other people. Add the PDF to your cart and check the "Show gift options during checkout" checkbox next to the "Proceed to Checkout" button.
Dark_Mistress, you should have also received an email letting you know someone has purchased a gift for you.
|
|
Yes, you can buy PDFs as gifts for other people. Add the PDF to your cart and check the "Show gift options during checkout" checkbox next to the "Proceed to Checkout" button.Dark_Mistress, you should have also received an email letting you know someone has purchased a gift for you.
Yeah I did, didn't check the email till after the fact. Just a little blown away a total stranger bought me something. :)
I think it's because everyone appreciates your reviews. You put a lot of thought and effort into them. This scenario is being judged by a single bad outcome, and maybe Kyle would like someone to take a fresh look at it.
This. Ho Ho Ho! ;-)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just a little blown away a total stranger bought me something. :)
And that's why the Pathfinder base are the finest in gaming. :)
Hyrum.
|
snip
DM, you're the gold standard for reviews. I always read your reviews and have parted with cash on your recommendation many times.
Everyone looking at this thread needs to read Vaughan's KQ article.
DM, you're the gold standard for reviews. I always read your reviews and have parted with cash on your recommendation many times.
Everyone looking at this thread needs to read Vaughan's KQ article.
I hope that's not true (that he decided to write an extra-tough module because someone accused him of writing easy modules). I hate wild variations in difficulty among PFS scenarios.
For a bit of irony, I was the one who told Greg at Gen Con that his part of the Everwar Series was the easiest and provided no real challenge to PCs. And if you missed it, I was the GM for both reviews...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I thought my part of the Everwar series held that distinction, Kyle. ;-)
And, in fairness, it was my first PFS adventure. I really didn't have any idea how optimized some groups might be in PFS play. Still, I heard a couple of PCs perished in at least one of the runnings. So I guess it wasn't that easy, after all. :-D
As for Greg and his "easy" scenario dilemma...
LOL!
This will haunt him to no end.
No really. I intend to haunt him to no end over this development. ;-D