Director of Brand Strategy
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The Westcrown map is both more and less sandboxy than past maps. It allows a GM to place their own additions anywhere and lets players do their own things where ever it's convenient because there's no "canon" stating that there is no inn called such-and-such on that street. It's less sandboxy for GMs who don't want to add their own stuff but want enough detail that they can set the PCs loose in the city and read specifically what they are encountering as they make their choices.
I like the variation in map style and think that it's nice to mix up the visual look of the maps. Even if they're showing different cities or nations, seeing the same textures and colors and such over an over starts to make all the maps look the same and they lose their uniqueness. Perhaps an overlay of where city district borders lie (ie. Guide to Absalom p. 50), major street names and landmarks would help. There's also no scale on this map, which makes it even more ambiguous for a GM trying to determine how long it takes PCs to get from one spot to another.
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I'm honestly curios to hear what sorts of things this map won't let you do, when other maps of similarly sized cities we've done (say, for Katapesh or Absalom) might LOOK more detailed but really aren't.
I agree. Just took a look at the Absalom Map, and there are parts where you can't make out a single street. For me it comes down to the difference between the more realistic style of Absalom and the more hand-drawn look of Westcrown. Now in case that you'd try a stunt as in PF#4 with the raid on sandpoint I prefer my maps as detailed as anyhow possible. Without that I like the look of the Westcrown map pretty much. Makes a great handout for the player's and feels like it could've been drawn by a contemporary artist, not by someone from 2009.
And as far as the usability for the GM is concerned: I've never used the city maps for a battlemap, so while it may spare some time if you don't have to make up the details, I don't consider it to be a big deal. And as I said before, if I had to prepare an encounter in the middle of, say, Absaloms Shoreline, chances are that I had exactly the same "problems" as with the Westcrown map.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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The Westcrown map is both more and less sandboxy than past maps. It allows a GM to place their own additions anywhere and lets players do their own things where ever it's convenient because there's no "canon" stating that there is no inn called such-and-such on that street. It's less sandboxy for GMs who don't want to add their own stuff but want enough detail that they can set the PCs loose in the city and read specifically what they are encountering as they make their choices.
I like the variation in map style and think that it's nice to mix up the visual look of the maps. Even if they're showing different cities or nations, seeing the same textures and colors and such over an over starts to make all the maps look the same and they lose their uniqueness. Perhaps an overlay of where city district borders lie (ie. Guide to Absalom p. 50), major street names and landmarks would help. There's also no scale on this map, which makes it even more ambiguous for a GM trying to determine how long it takes PCs to get from one spot to another.
Why won't this message show up? Can anyone else see the quoted post? Can anyone see this post?
Why won't this message show up? Can anyone else see the quoted post? Can anyone see this post?
I never saw the original post, but I do see the quoted one Yoda.
I guess I agree with the second paragraph. There are ways to improve this map, like a scale, city district borders, and a few landmarks. With those improvements I might have less of a problem with the overall style.
Until I stopped and thought about it, I am glad to see the Lazaretti monopoly broken up a little.
I think what you're seeing is some tension between GMing styles. If you're a real narrative GM who glosses over some minor details and cuts to significant 'cut scenes' in the story- the map is not going to bother you. It tells the players that it's a big city and "You Are Here".
I fall into this camp, so I'm quite fine with the map as is.
Put me in the "No Problems With the Map" camp. It is as "detailed" in it's way as any of the other large city maps I've looked at (such as Absalom and Korvosa). I actually like the hand drawn feel to it, as I can strip off the labeling and make a print out for my players and it feels like a map they were handed. I like variety, and am happy with what I see :)
Which, if any, articles in this AP volume can be considered 'safe' for players of Bastards of Erebus to read...that is, spoiler-free? Specifically, how spoiler-ish is the Westcrown gazeteer? Thanks.
Which, if any, articles in this AP volume can be considered 'safe' for players of Bastards of Erebus to read...that is, spoiler-free? Specifically, how spoiler-ish is the Westcrown gazeteer? Thanks.
To quote SKR on this:
Quick question: if I am to play in this AP, which articles can I read without being spoiled?Wes says that the most spoiler-friendly article is the Tieflings article. The Westcrown writeup in #25 has some spoilers, so I'd avoid it.
However, the entirety of Cheliax, Empire of Devils is player-friendly, and includes a condensed, spoiler-free two-page version of Mr. Schend's Westcrown article from #25.
Has there been a style of a city map we did in Pathfinder (or some other publisher did elsewhere) that works better for you as a GM? Why?
I'm honestly curios to hear what sorts of things this map won't let you do, when other maps of similarly sized cities we've done (say, for Katapesh or Absalom) might LOOK more detailed but really aren't.
A bunch of people already pretty much covered exactly what I was going to say, so I'll just say "what they said".
And while I'm not sure what you mean by a map that "looks more detailed but isn't", in the end that could be enough between a map I like and can use better in a game, and a map I don't and consider too much additional work to use (and I don't buy pre-made modules for too much additional work - just a little is fine).
To answer your first question: As I mentioned in a previous post, there are definitely maps in Pathfinder (as well as other publishers) that work better for me. In Dungeon there's Cauldron and Sasserine. In PF, there's Magnimar and Korvosa. For other publishers, there's Waterdeep.
It's also the context the map appears in. If this was just a rough city map for a PF single module in which the PCs only visit for a tiny little short time, then it'll be okay (though still not what I prefer). But, as Dark_Mistress points out, for an entire AP set in a city, I think GMs could really benefit from much more detail, including everything up to major streets and street names. Right now, I can't really explain much to my PCs, and they will certainly be asking as they 'get into' the city during the game.
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As to the map: I first saw it and was a little startled, I thought there might actually be a more detailed version for the DM elsewhere. When I found out there wasn't, I shrugged and figured no problem.
But I DO see what folks are saying. It's the same kind of argument among those who use miniature battlemats and those who hand-wave stuff. In CotCT, my group got a huge kick pouring over the city map. They liked knowing where individual buildings were. Entire adventure sections were built using the map involving chases, different groups moving from place to place, line of sight and other details we all love. It also helped for scale.
Will the new map style serve? Sure. We get to an adventure location, I slap down some tiles or describe the scene and we play. But I know one or two of my players will begin to get restless when they ask where someting is and I wave my hand and say "somewhere over in that section". I don't know why! :-)
So I can use the map, no fret. Would I like a return to the style of the earlier AP's? Yes.
I get it that cartography is hard, and expensive. As far as I'm concerned this map isn't rich enough for a city that an entire adventure path is going to play out in. All it gives is relative positions for the handful of named locations. X is to the North and East of Y. That's fine, but there's so little of it. The accompanying article details rego and parego and a bunch of other stuff, but that fails to appear on the map.
I don't ask that every street is labeled. I don't ask that every business be labeled. As a DM I have enough on my plate without having to remember what name I made up for the "main street" of a city (or wherever I wrote that little note is at).
The best kind of city map (for me) is one that names major features (WestGate, Market Square, Slumzone, The Grave Yard, City Hall... those kind of generic useful spots) as well as streets, then uses indexed dots for event/detail locations. A nice key in the corner that can be obscured when copying/printing for players gives me a handy place to glance at for names of three taverns and where they're at. Or temples for five major religions.
A map is a visual aid for both player and DM. It's nice to give players hand-outs. Roll a nice Gather Information check for "the closest inn to the mayor's house" and the DM should be able to respond with "the spot marked M is O'Leary's Olde Shelter" and simultaneously notice that it's next-door to the Assassin's Guild's HQ. Oh-ho! Inspiration strikes.
I wanted to separately add that the article on tieflings is fan-fraking-tastic. This adventure path just paid for itself, even if we never play it. We've always had fun with planetouched and this turns things even cooler. My compliments to Amber Scott for coming up with a list of 98 very interesting alternate abilities (100: one roll-again and pick two, and 7/66 are duplicates). Very clever unique thinking here.
My plan is to run this adventure with PFRPG Core and allow DM-approved +1 LA races at no penalty. One of the awesome things about PFRPG Core is that the core races are jazzed up just enough that borderline LA+1 races can be used this way.
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Sorry to repeat myself, but I haven't seen an answer yet, and hopefully it's not just me being blind, but the adventure mentions a Council of Thieves Gamemaster's Guide PDF as well as the Player's Guide, so when should we expect the arrival of said PDF? Same time as the Player's Guide?
Thanks!
In another thread titled CoT Players Guide, this was asked. This was James' response:
There's also mention in Bastards of Erebus of a CoT Gamemaster's Guide? Is that still planned?The content of the Gamemaster's Guide (which is going to be information about the area surrounding Westcrown) is looking like it's gonna get rolled into the Player's Guide, since there's nothing in there that PCs shouldn't know, and, indeed, it's stuff that can help players immerse themselves in the setting more.
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In another thread titled CoT Players Guide, this was asked. This was James' response:
There's also mention in Bastards of Erebus of a CoT Gamemaster's Guide? Is that still planned?The content of the Gamemaster's Guide (which is going to be information about the area surrounding Westcrown) is looking like it's gonna get rolled into the Player's Guide, since there's nothing in there that PCs shouldn't know, and, indeed, it's stuff that can help players immerse themselves in the setting more.
Awesome, thanks for the help! :)
I like the pre-generated characters with a bit history and in the Adventure Path's a glance at how they would grow the character as it levels up, but I'm curious. What is the goal of the pre-generated characters in the Adventure Path and modules?
If the goal is for it to be a pre-made party that will go through the arc of the Adventure Path, I think the party in Council of Thieves is going to have some significant challenges....
You have one Chaotic Good bard that has to not only get along with 3 lawful characters, but one of them is completely opposite in alignment -- Lawful Evil. Plus, you also have a paladin in the group as well so that is another character that will have a lot of trouble with the LE character.
Just seems like this group wasn't quite thought out as far as long-term viability.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I like the pre-generated characters with a bit history and in the Adventure Path's a glance at how they would grow the character as it levels up, but I'm curious. What is the goal of the pre-generated characters in the Adventure Path and modules?
If the goal is for it to be a pre-made party that will go through the arc of the Adventure Path, I think the party in Council of Thieves is going to have some significant challenges....
You have one Chaotic Good bard that has to not only get along with 3 lawful characters, but one of them is completely opposite in alignment -- Lawful Evil. Plus, you also have a paladin in the group as well so that is another character that will have a lot of trouble with the LE character.
Just seems like this group wasn't quite thought out as far as long-term viability.
The goal is that people can simply start to play using those characters should they not have time, the desire, or the experience to make their own PC. As for alignments, having opposing alignments in the pre-gens promotes roleplay, as it gives a motivation for Seelah to try to redeem Seltyiel and set him on the path of good, for Lem to be wary of Seltyiel as a former Chelish slave, for Seoni to be constantly amused by Lem's unpredictable antics, for Seltyiel to try oto get his non-evil companions to join him in his ever-present quest for revenge and retribution against the fathers who wronged him. I much prefer this potential to 4 sets of statblocks without a backstory or all sharing the same or similar backstories and motivations.
I wanted to separately add that the article on tieflings is fan-fraking-tastic. This adventure path just paid for itself, even if we never play it. We've always had fun with planetouched and this turns things even cooler. My compliments to Amber Scott for coming up with a list of 98 very interesting alternate abilities (100: one roll-again and pick two, and 7/66 are duplicates). Very clever unique thinking here.
Thank you!! The Paizo crew came up with a lot of the tiefling abilities; I think I sent in about 30, and they decided the abilities were so fun we had to expand them to 100.
I have to say I went through the roof when Wes asked me to write this, and I'm so glad you liked it!
-Amber S.
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As far as the city map, it really doesn't have less detail. I could run a roof top fight from one building to the next just fine. The streets are all there you just have to pay attention to when they run behind a building and out side of your site line.
I suspect its comes down to the style. I don't mind the 3-d view, but the style is a little cartoony for the devilish city of Westcrown. I would have preferred something more dark/foreboding/gothic even if it was the same perspective.
That being said I can use the map as is, no problem.
Amber, I think this is the first thing I've ever read of yours. I really dug it. Thanks!
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I wanted to separately add that the article on tieflings is fan-fraking-tastic. This adventure path just paid for itself, even if we never play it. We've always had fun with planetouched and this turns things even cooler. My compliments to Amber Scott for coming up with a list of 98 very interesting alternate abilities (100: one roll-again and pick two, and 7/66 are duplicates). Very clever unique thinking here.Thank you!! The Paizo crew came up with a lot of the tiefling abilities; I think I sent in about 30, and they decided the abilities were so fun we had to expand them to 100.
I have to say I went through the roof when Wes asked me to write this, and I'm so glad you liked it!
-Amber S.
I have to add, I really loved your article on Tieflings. Hopefully when they do a planes book they keep you in mind.
I for one really like the Westcrown City map, it really suits the city's flavour and style. It is also itself quite pretty to look at.
I also like the Westcrown map. Very flavorful and a nice change from the standard for variety!
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On a side note, I like the idea of the Bestiary Symbols, but their design could be more refined. I'm going to put on my design professors hat for a moment, so forgive me.
Please feel free to ignore any of this feedback ...
- The symbols are very complicated for there size. If you look at most well designed icons and symbols for business cards (basically the same size as these) they are much less complex then the ones used here (I can't tell what the magical beast is).
- Having all the symbols in a circle makes them difficult to read by shape. Having the interior shape be on its own would make them easier to see. Another option might be (if your stuck with the shape concept) having a different geometric shape for Climate, Environment and Creature type.
- Most are 4 color (black, yellow - orange gradient, and another color) but this rule is broken for undead, underground, temperate, swamp and tropical, which makes for a weak visual system.
- The designs are also inconsistent in wether they are flat or 3-D, color fills or color lines, interact with the edge or not, etc... (e.g. the forest symbol is the only environment one that doesn't touch the circle)
For a test, look at the designs on page 74 of the AP. In almost every case its easier to see the difference in the text next to the symbol then the differences in the symbols themselves (even names that are very similar in size like plant and ooze).
My (unasked for advice :) ) would be to constrain yourself to flat silhouettes in 2 color (black, negative space) at first and then if color is needed later change away from black e.g. the dragon icon be red, not black with a hint of red. Also avoid putting them in larger geometric forms (allowing the interior forms to be bigger and more easily seen).
If its too late for the above suggestion then one easy change I'd make is not use black in the interior of the symbols at all. Make the Construct symbol interior out of a dark and light grey. The humanoid out of a dark and light blue. The fey, dark pink and light pink, etc. This way people can more easily identify the type with a color (though colors will be used more then once).
Anyway, I hope this is taken as intended ... constructive feedback. I think they show a lot of promise.
Not a bad idea...Would it be possible to add a "go to next adventure in this adventure path" button for the individual AP product pages? Just would make it much easier to cruise through all six rather than having to back out to the AP product list.
And if the button is already there and I'm missing it please go easy on me -- it's 3am. =)
Thank you so much for adding the links to the previous and next adventures in the AP sequence! It makes navigation so much easier.
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i actually really like the map of Westcrown, now seeing them in the print copy. They give me a sense of dimension about the city and topography that is hard to do from a flat, bird's eye view. I have detail enough, and I like the period style-poetic map. It reminds me a lot of the poetic maps from Harn from years ago and historical maps (like someone shared of 1500s Venice).
the tiefling article is excellent. that's the only one I've read so far.
can't wait to delve into the adventure itself.
You have one Chaotic Good bard that has to not only get along with 3 lawful characters, but one of them is completely opposite in alignment -- Lawful Evil. Plus, you also have a paladin in the group as well so that is another character that will have a lot of trouble with the LE character.
Just seems like this group wasn't quite thought out as far as long-term viability.
This is the first AP using the new Pathfinder RPG. The Pathfinder version of the paladin has been altered to make it possible to travel with chaotic and evil characters without getting into too much trouble.
This is the first AP using the new Pathfinder RPG. The Pathfinder version of the paladin has been altered to make it possible to travel with chaotic and evil characters without getting into too much trouble.You have one Chaotic Good bard that has to not only get along with 3 lawful characters, but one of them is completely opposite in alignment -- Lawful Evil. Plus, you also have a paladin in the group as well so that is another character that will have a lot of trouble with the LE character.
Just seems like this group wasn't quite thought out as far as long-term viability.
The paladin needed some redefinition. I don't see it so much as an alteration, but rather better explained. Many people had such a narrow and rigid interpretation of the code that the paladin PC could be quarrelsome character if played that way.
I'm not disagreeing with doppleganger in the larger sense, just putting my own spin on it.
This has probably been covered already but theres alot of posts to sift through now. Just opened the mail and started reading. See mention of coming to website to find "Players Guide" extras. Has this not shown up yet?
This has probably been covered already but theres alot of posts to sift through now. Just opened the mail and started reading. See mention of coming to website to find "Players Guide" extras. Has this not shown up yet?
Available on the 13th my friend. :)
umm wheres the players guide?
My biggest problem with the map isn't so much the information contained in the map, as it is style (not that I have anything against very maps with lots of information, quite the contrary).
To me, it just looks sloppy...
Something that I don't think has been noted is that part of the philosophy behind this map was to see if we could do a map that captured to feel of the city. Something that really drives home the distinct undertones of the campaign with every glance. As nice as many of our maps are, I can't say that aside from shape and a few landmarks there's much that separates the look of Magnimar from Katapesh from Absalom. And nothing about Riddleport, for example, really screams "Pirate's Paradise" to me. They're all fine maps, but of all of them, I think Sandpoint is the only one with much personality - it being a small community helps. So, with the amount of intrigue and Venetian themes going on through this Adventure Path, we tried something a bit more Renaissance feeling. Dragonmoon actually pinpointed our inspiration.
Venice?... Did you sau Venice?.... Like this late 1500s version?
So, from the point of character, theme, verisimilitude, and immersion - all factors I know many of you hold as important to your games as showman and hosts - I think this map is quite successful in many regards. Obviously some folks have strong preferences in these regards, and as such, information has been gained.
This discussion also highlights the question of whether any of our maps can be considered representational, which is largely an illusion. I can't say I've ever in my life been in a square or rectangular building, but still, many folks seem to take our maps a being top-down views. That simply can't be the case for many of our maps, as the sizes we're presenting would mean that many buildings would appear as only dots. Hence the trickery of the cartographer. With that in mind, I wonder if folks might find the Westcrown map more to their tastes if the roads were better defined and labeled.
On top of all of this. We've been doing Adventure Paths for a few years now. I chalk a measure of our success up to not doing the same thing over and over and over again. We've tried a lot. We've abandoned a lot. We're going to try new things. And with our past track record, I would hope we'd be granted a bit of leave and understanding to take a swing at something new and potentially cool. This is just such a new and potentially cool thing, and we'll continue collecting information on its reception and people's specific considerations. While "I like it!" is nice, and "I hate it!" is sad (and leaves poor Sutter a sobbing wreck), neither is unfortunately very helpful. Thus, calm, well reasoned, and mannerful critiques - much like Dark Mistress's - are very much appreciated.
And that's all I got. DISCUSS! But be nice. We'll have more to throw in after Gen Con!
Something that I don't think has been noted is that part of the philosophy behind this map was to see if we could do a map that captured to feel of the city.
Fair enough. Experimentation good and all that. Thing is, in my personal view, this is a bad choice. Maps aren't meant to capture the feel of the place they document. Maps don't capture architecture or materials or even age of a place. They capture what is where relative to other places. That's their job, by definition. What you describe is a cityscape. What's a DM going to get out of this map? "The city has lots of orange." I don't see anything on this map that conveys urban decay.
Understand, in a nutshell I view a map in a module as two very simple things. 1} a player handout that represents pretty much what the characters would get if they pulled off a Gather Information and bought themselves a map. 2} a GM reference to save me from getting my geography wrong relative to the read-aloud text.
I think AP maps should be designed not as works of art (though some are very attractive) but as utility materials that will spend a lot of time in someone's hands.
That's my $.02
This is a map I might hand a player but it's absolutely not something for a character and as far as hand-outs go, that's got Fail written all over it.
I think AP maps should be designed not as works of art (though some are very attractive) but as utility materials that will spend a lot of time in someone's hands.
I'd hope we wouldn't have to make a choice here, but I guess if we did, I'd go with utility. Why do you see the map not working as a hand-out? I mean, I keep looking at if from different angles, and I read fail nowhere...
Wes, every time I see the word "Venice" in a post, I have to go flipping back through the pdf. The Venetian feel was a complete surprise to me, and has me stoked!
Maps aren't meant to capture the feel of the place they document. Maps don't capture architecture or materials or even age of a place. They capture what is where relative to other places. That's their job, by definition. What you describe is a cityscape.
While I'm nodding at a few of your other points, I can't agree with this. I've seen far too many maps in RPG products that I want to hang on my wall, see far too many calendars of maps every December, see far too poster prints of maps in places like Bed, Bath, and Beyond, and know too many passionate cartographers to accept that maps aren't works of art and don't deserve to be treated aesthetically.
Understand, in a nutshell I view a map in a module as two very simple things. 1} a player handout that represents pretty much what the characters would get if they pulled off a Gather Information and bought themselves a map.
This I think the map does an exceptional job of - not sure if you agree or disagree here - especially in it's comparison to a real world map of 1500s' Venice. As much of Westcrown is modeled around the same, I would expect their presentations of their cities to be similar. Not really trying to be defensive here, but with so much of the city's culture modeled off an individual culture, I'm surprised that one of the things in the volume that could practically have come from Westcrown doesn't seem interest folks.
2} a GM reference to save me from getting my geography wrong relative to the read-aloud text.
So are you saying it does or doesn't do this and how? Would the inclusion of dots (like in the inside cover) have helped? That's also a good point, the Westcrown map appears twice with two different tagging methods, if folks could keep that in mind when sharing their opinions.
Wes, every time I see the word "Venice" in a post, I have to go flipping back through the pdf. The Venetian feel was a complete surprise to me, and has me stoked!
Totally dude, just wait for it. In #25 it's mostly in the Westcrown article, but from #26 on it's pretty unmistakable. Do you like opera, noble galas, and assassinations? I hope so! ^_^
Hey, once we toss all those freakin' devil-worshipers out of Westcrown, I just might have to move there!
Hey, once we toss all those freakin' devil-worshipers out of Westcrown, I just might have to move there!
There's the opportunity for better than that come #30.
Some days, Wes, you really have my number...
Understand, in a nutshell I view a map in a module as two very simple things. 1} a player handout that represents pretty much what the characters would get if they pulled off a Gather Information and bought themselves a map.This I think the map does an exceptional job of - not sure if you agree or disagree here - especially in it's comparison to a real world map of 1500s' Venice. As much of Westcrown is modeled around the same, I would expect their presentations of their cities to be similar. Not really trying to be defensive here, but with so much of the city's culture modeled off an individual culture, I'm surprised that one of the things in the volume that could practically have come from Westcrown doesn't seem interest folks.
As someone who has one of those stylized venetian maps on their wall, I liked the map.
I must admit, I must run cities differently than everyone else. As an example, my current planescape game, when my players went to a new tavern "The Chilling Fog", I never pulled out the map to pinpoint which street it was on. I just told them, this is in the Lower Ward. General district descriptions are all I really need. A city isn't the same as a dungeon crawl.
So I'm kind of sad, all of these negative reactions means we probably won't be getting stylized maps anymore. I myself want more maps like this one from the Vatican Hall of Maps.
The goal is that people can simply start to play using those characters should they not have time, the desire, or the experience to make their own PC.
Okay, that is right up the alley of what I thought.
As for alignments, having opposing alignments in the pre-gens promotes roleplay ...
Yoda8myhead has a reasonable perspective, however, I haven't seen it play out that way in the groups I have gamed with. If this was a system without alignments, the backgrounds can be interpreted with enough creative interpretation that you might get it to work. However, if you are faithful to the alignment system in the Core Rulebook for Pathfinder I have serious doubts that a group could keep the characters together.
From the LG description in Pathfinder p. 167 "She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly."
So if that is the stereotypical take for Lawful Good and they are only 2 steps removed from the alignment, how would Chaotic Good fair being at the completely opposite end of the alignment spectrum from Lawful Evil?
Doppelganger and Watcher both had very interesting comments on the Paladin, which I have yet to read in any thorough detail, although I did notice that they are still required to be Lawful Good.
For me, I found the pre-gen characters to be very interesting character concepts, but I still feel that if you are really playing the characters within their respective alignments, this group will fragment sooner than later. (And that would be especially true for my current set of players -- granted they are unlikely to use the pre-gen characters.)
I guess in the end it comes down to how much emphasis you put into the alignment system versus the character concepts.
I've seen far too many maps in RPG products that I want to hang on my wall, see far too many calendars of maps every December, see far too poster prints of maps in places like Bed, Bath, and Beyond, and know too many passionate cartographers to accept that maps aren't works of art and don't deserve to be treated aesthetically.
/snip/
Not really trying to be defensive here, but with so much of the city's culture modeled off an individual culture, I'm surprised that one of the things in the volume that could practically have come from Westcrown doesn't seem interest folks.
I'm surprised you're surprised! :D I think what's important to realize is that you need the right piece for the right job. In the end, an AP book is, well, an adventure module, meant for GMs to run a D&D adventure. (Yes, it has other things, but in the end it is what it is.) A map found in such a product should be the "right tool for the job", and that's a tool to help GMs run said module. It needs to have a fairly significant (though not necessarily an entirely) utilitarian value. It just does.
Now, I don't think it's entirely fair to say there's "no interest". As many others have also pointed out, if this map appeared in the Player's Guide, I think it would be wonderful. What a great item to show the players since it "could practically have come from Westcrown". But that doesn't help the GM much, and is only part of the equation. (Optimally, both types of maps would be available - the 'stylistic' one in the Player's Guide, and the detailed one in the AP... though I understand art budgets probably don't make this feasible. *sigh*)
I do agree with the previous poster that noted there's a difference in GM styles at play here. However, in the end, one type of map satisfies both styles, and one type of map satisfies only one style. I think I know the better option for a product.
(I think if you want to give a "feel" for a city, it should show up in the artwork and not the map. I'm with Anguish.)
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Hey, once we toss all those freakin' devil-worshipers out of Westcrown, I just might have to move there!There's the opportunity for better than that come #30.
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! What are you guys doing? Leave us be! Shoo! Nothing to see here... just some innocent Chelaxians whose motives and demeanor is always falsified by Taldorian propaganda!
Amber, I think this is the first thing I've ever read of yours. I really dug it. Thanks!
No, thank you! Although at first I thought you said it was the first thing of mine you've read THAT you dug. And I was like, "Better than nothing!"
If I may post a shameless plug, you can see a list of all the Pathfinder products I've worked on here.
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Amber, I think this is the first thing I've ever read of yours. I really dug it. Thanks!No, thank you! Although at first I thought you said it was the first thing of mine you've read THAT you dug. And I was like, "Better than nothing!"
If I may post a shameless plug, you can see a list of all the Pathfinder products I've worked on here.
Good work Medesha, all around.
Col
If I may post a shameless plug, you can see a list of all the Pathfinder products I've worked on here.
I'm glad you did. It looks like you published some stuff I do not have, some stuff I have but that I haven't read, and some stuff I read and gave credit to the wrong person (likely that slippery Sutter fellow.) So now I'll keep more of an eye out for you!