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I end up doing some fun ones myself, like Profession Gambling with a gunslinger so its like "Where did you get that handy haversack?" "I won it in a game of cards."

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Man, nevermind the whole oathbreaker thing, the fact that any other polymorph effect you do that isn't fludic form causes you to lose your features of being an ooze morph.

Its like having an archtype called Banshee that screams non stop, but can stop for one hour a day.

I've heard rumors that it was purposefully designed to be bad. Makes me wonder how much more martial garbage is out there that is designed to just take up space in books and be piles of refuge.

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Filthy Lucre wrote:
How would you implement Alchemist without access to infusions? Just completely remove them?

Spheres of Might gives a little bit towards a more alchemy character without having as much magic. But I don't see why an alchemist couldn't have infusions.

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As for getting it on someone. See the tankard and blade style feat. You can thow liquid on enemies from your tankard

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Currently working on a brewmaster when I realized something about brew potion. The only limitation on it is that the potion has to be able to target one or more creatures/objects.

There are two things you can make with brew potion as well, Potions and Oils. Potions being something internal and Oils being external.

So it seems to me that you could make an oil of Magic Missile which targets up to five creatures.

Where am I wrong though?

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Little Red Goblin Games wrote:
Darche Schneider wrote:
If a henchling is a large quadrupedal creature, does the packmule ability get multiplied as well?

It wouldn't be super problematic either way, but as written I'd say no. (It modifies the strength score and this adds to the carrying capacity on top of that). It could be a really fun character concept though and it wouldn't break anything too badly. At higher levels the numbers are basically absurd anyway, so it's really just what order of magnitude. We had a large side henchling stealing a massive statue and beating people with it in some of our high levels playtests.

Keep in mind that the pack bonus damage would not increase (as that's restricted by level).

Aye, was mostly looking to it to see if I'd get to the point where I'd be able to start carrying around a tavern on my back as a light load.

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Personally, I do like the fact that they reprinted things from the players companions to the hardback book. And frankly, I believe they should continue to keep doing so.

It was kind of how the dragon magazines started to work for a bit there, where they rereleased the mechanical stuff from the mags into the dragon compendirum which did have its share of changes.

But I'm not happy with the lore warden either. Its far more awkward now for one, where you get a level that you gain Nothing. Like someone who says "Hey for twice the price I can throw an extra one in for free." when trying to sell you something.

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At least a lot of the new exotic weapons are not a weapon of a lower catagory but worse.

Like Dagger / War Razor / Butterfly Knife. Where the Dagger has remained Superior to them. heck the butterfly knife came out in the original adventuer's armory.

Katar, Tribladed got knocked down to a Martial Prof making a pretty strong light x4 crit weapon.

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Rysky wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
What's your favorite weapon mod?

Razor Sharp, I've always liked whetsones so giving them some love makes me very happy :3

Versatile Design is gonna make a LOT of Fighters very happy.

Yeah. For me, It'll let me have a scythe as a polearm as I believe they should be. Which lets me use all those cool polearm tricks with scythes. Like the Switchblade scythe they have now.

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One of the things I've wanted to do with the feat myself, is combine it with the Magical Child Vigilante Archetype. So your hand comes off and then transforms into something like a Celestial Wolf or something. Or that One transformation creature that could turn itself into a sword. Or perhaps a parrot?

Then you get the clockwork prosthetic to replace your missing hand or use phantom limb or some such. I've also thought about making a Hand-Witch like in Gravity falls.

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For me, an artificer composed of Alchemist/Wizard.

The alchemist kinda tries to do it, the wizard kinda tries to do it, but neither of them really pull of a real artificer. Now it doesn't have to be like 3.5 and to to really try to would be madness incarnate.

Rather you could house a number of things with it.

Class Archetypes could focus on different items that are created (With obviously nothing for potion, cause that would just be a straight up alchemist.)

So like the core class would be about making any and all magic items and doing a general enhancement on said magic items. Like the Artificer could pick up Item Mastery feats as an artificer discovery, a few of the alchemist discoveries and a few of those special wizard feats (Like the wand-like staff feat).

Additional discovers could also lead to mundane enhancements for gear, new ways to use some mundane or magical gear Possibly with a few that are focused on specific items.

Archetypes could include..

Gizmologist - A Techbased support class for the technology guide/starfinder. Has a tighter spell selection than that of the standard Artificer and gives up its magic item creation stuff for gizmos that cast "spells" but as ex abilities. Like Jump or Shield being something like Jump Boots or Shield bracelet

Wand Master - Pretty much simply as is on tin. A character that gives up the rest of the item creation stuff, but gains better use of wands.

Scroll Master - Like the Skald archetype for bard, The scroll master expands on the wizard archetype, enhancing the ability to make and use scrolls, and the whole scroll combat stuff the archetype was trying to do.

Ioun Savant - Focused particularly on the use of Ioun Stones, allowing them to do new and unusual things like actually use them to defend or attack.

Prestige Mage - Less magical, more showmanship, the Prestige Mage builds devices similar to the Gizmologist, still being semi-magicy in nature.

Cogsmith - Keeper of time, specializes around more time based magics such as slow and haste. Spell list changes up a bit here as well.

War Machinist - Golem crafter that creates various kinds of robotic servants. Can 'cast' summon spells to summon animals and such.

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They should all get rainbow sherbert poops.

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So I'm working on making a character for a Pathfinder/3.5 king maker game.

In Haunted Heroes handbook, there is a chain of feats that gives you left hand. I really can't think of it as anything else especially with the Vampire Hunter D insert that came with the book.

I do get an extra feat from the start with the house rules of the game so I could get the first two if I was to go with D.

Baring that, I'm looking more at the mechanics that the left hand could do.

One - Minor skill bonuses. Not really anything all that great to be honest.
Two - Minor increase to attack and damage increase when using a light or one handed weapon. Nice really but it limits what I could choose

Picking up the next feat

Three - Reduce two weapon fighting penalties. Really good for wielding two one handed weapons. Still okay with light wepaons

Four - One of the big ones for me. The hand can perform any action I could reasonably do with a single hand whenever I'm not able to do actions.

The next feat makes the hand into a pseudo familiar, which can become a real familiar if I have the familiar class feature. And this is where things get weird.

Okay first off the second feat inspires me the most here, cause the third one makes me go in weird directions.

I've decided to play an Alchemist or Investigator. The reason being is that with the possessed hand, It could force feed me potions whenever I need to be fed a potion and I can't do it to myself. Don't know exactly how I'd like to do the two weapon fighting one.

Now on the third feat Since it becomes my familiar there is a few weird ways we could use it.

Beast Bound Witch - I could transform into a copy of my familiar.. Maybe? If I die.. I could possess my hand, in one of the weirdest things.. Then could use one of the Resurrection methods that needs a body part.

Synergist Witch - I take my hand off.. to allow it to jump back into me and fuse with my form. Ultimately does very little of anything but my form would be a blend of my hand and my body.

Magical Girl - I take my hand off.. and it transforms into a worg. Or an imp or something when I transform myself.

Pact Wizard - My hand's true form is revealed at level 7! It becomes an outsider version of itself.

Spirit Binder - Probably one of the more flavorful versions there is and a bit creepy. A love one died.. And I make them into my hand because I can't let them go.

Homunculist Alchemist - I experiment on my hand apparently, evolving it into a more advanced hand.

Duettist Bard - Together my hand and I make lovely music and performances.

Figment Familiar - My hand is just part of my imagination.

Tattooed Sorcerer - My hand could become a tatoo on my body.. Manos! The Hand of fate.

Familiar Adept Wizard - I'm really good with my hand.. and all my spells are stored in it.

So my thing here is.. Should I go weird? Or should I go Alchemist/Something else? What should that something else be?

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Can a paladin use a snapleaf while they are performing an evil act?

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Well I think they totally missed some good ability to do some errata to other things.

Like the Blind Man's Fold should give you blindfighting against foes you can see within 5 feet of you.

Boots of Springing and Striding should only function after wearing them for 24 hours, be usable once per day, and last a minute. Same thing with Boots of The Winterland.


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Graceful Steal (Ultimate Intrigue) now lets you use the Steal Combat Maneuver in place of Slight of Hand, allowing the Hulk use his giant meat fingers to slip into your pockets and pick out the coins in your purse.

If the two are matched feat for feat, In combat The Hulk will still come out on top.

His Full BAB vs her 3/4 BAB = Every four levels she's down one point vs him.

His Size is Large or Huge vs her Medium. That gives him more bonuses.

Even out of combat, His bab matches her ranks in Slight of Hand. His bonus on the feats gives him +4 to performing the check. His size gives him a +2 on the check.

If he has nothing else, she'll barely make it above him in slight of hand, on virtue that she probably has a higher dex bonus than the hulk.

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Seriously.. This is something I can't figure out.

Steal is a combat maneuver, by rules of combat maneuvers you use your STR to perform.

So you get STR + BAB + Size Mod. The Bigger you are, the better your size mod. The Hulk is at least Large, if not Huge. And he's got gallons of str.

Black Widow on other hand, has a fairly decent amount of dex and lots of training. But the moment she gets into combat in pathfinder she suddenly forgets how to perform her pick pocket abilities.

Because by the skills definition, you cannot take objects from people in combat that are aware of your presence. Even though we see it all the flippin time in movies.

I'm pretty sure we even see it in the references I'm talking about right here and now. I know I've seen it in zootopia, deadpool, and a few other movies. I think even Dobby the elf managed to pull this off.

However in Pathfinder, The Incredible Hulk is truly capable of being Incredible at stealing things.

But wait! You might say, The Hulk can't steal things out of combat! Well Now there is a feat for that. Graceful steal. Granted it does replace STR with DEX But the Hulk still gets his size modifiers for being huge, and all his combat abilities. Not to mention he is pretty agile even though he's so big. Maybe Not black Widow agile, but still pretty good.

So basically My rules question in here is.. Did I miss anything? Does Black Widow have go and spend a large number of feats so she can match the Hulk's ability to pick pocket?

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Texas Snyper wrote:

1) I would think its the blast range. You're still using your blast but the your 'strands' are loose so you hit with the object instead of the aether energy.

1C) Why would you use that over the blast effect? Unless you're using it to throw an ally. So I'd say yes you can but unless you have a specific reason to (eg ally) you have no reason to.

Yes, could be an ally that I swing around, but it also would have been a bit dependent on the primary question there too. You might have been able to throw further.


1D) I assume you mean with Aether's second version. I don't think so but even if you could how would that be any different from just swinging the weapon at them?

If the second version was used, there is the possibility of being able to use your Con Modifier instead of Str modifier for the weapon's attack and damage rolls.


2A) I'd say no, you can't act to remain floating there. It still requires an action to remain floating, its just a free action to do so. I hope you have featherfall.

2B) See above

The ability does say that you can hover without spending an action.

"You can use flame jet as a move action and can emanate a mild jet of flame, allowing you to hover without spending an action."

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I dont know. Seems pretty weak to me, i cant see anybody using it.

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Creative Combat Focus of skills..

Well there are a few things you could get as far as skills go. One would be a three part go..

1) Take Skill Focus Stealth
2) Take Hellcat Stealth
3) Take the Skill Unlock of Stealth
4) Take Stalker Vigilante Talent to hide in shadows.

Now you can HIPS everywhere. Though you still gotta deal with Blindsense, Blindsight, Life sense, scent and Tremor Sense.

Scent can be thwarted with alchemy
Tremor sense by some magic shoes and I think a feat, as well as just not touching the ground.

I don't know about the other three though. Then just kinda fight with hit and run tactics. Like shot on the run, or spring attack.

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Bards in Pathfinder are very varied, depending on your archetype.

Archaeologist for example lets you be both the party rogue and the party spell caster. You could even be a good damage dealer with some Luck bonus cheese. (Fates Favored, Lingering Song, Exquisite Accompaniment)

There is a few dervish ones I haven't quite tried out yet. And if you include Skald as a bard, (since it is a hybrid of Bard/Barb) You can also be the spellcaster and primary frountliner. I had a bard centaur that just tore people up.

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If anything, My biggest complaint with the Kineticist is the power gaps.

Infusions/Shapes - You get these at 1, 3, 5, 9, 11th 13th 17th and 19ths.

You can only have an infusions up to 1/2 your kinetist level rounded down.

Then at 5 11 and 17 you get to replace one infusion.

The problem is You're stuck with level 2 infusions until you hit level Nine! There is no way that I know of to get level 3 infusions at 6. So by the time you bloody could get a 3rd level infusion, you're already able to get 4th level, and two levels away from getting a fifth level. (At level 11.)

Couple this with rather few, and poor 1 and 2 level infusions for the kinetist I tend to try to play (Aether) and I'm sitting around trying to figure out what to do.

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Also Full pouch says the copied item suffers a slight reduction in quality.. and then is potentially better than the original? Also seems a bit week for a level 2/3 spell that has a material component.

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Alexander Augunas wrote:
Terminalmancer wrote:
"If you ever reveal or confirm your connection to your eschewed identities [...]"

"If a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound?"

My official-not-official answer, for the purpose of this feat, is yes. You take the mask off, you're revealing your identity and taking the penalties. Because even if you can't see them, you've revealed your identity to SOMEONE. (And don't you think the Reaper of Reputation would be eying someone who's effectively expunged their reputation VERY closely?)

That's how I recommend all GMs rule it, in any case.

So basically.. You give up the ability to eat?

What about if someone uses a spell to get your old Identity and beat the dc 10+hd caster level check? Or if you get polymorphed? The mask gets pilfered? sundered?

Do you lose your familiar/animal companion/etc? Why didn't the reaper of Reputation pay attention to the before and after the ceremony? IF a tree pretends its not a tree does anyone know?

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So in the Weapon Master's guide there is an Advance Weapons training that allows you to use combat feats more times per day equal to your weapon training bonus.

So good ones I've found so far

Barroom Brawler - Its like having martial flexibility!

Slow Time - Behind a few meditation feats, but being able to 'cast' haste multiple times per day by yourself I think is always good.

Telekinetic Mastery - Have more times per day that you can cast telekinesis.

What are some other ones out there?

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Nox Aeterna wrote:

I think that archetype is meant to NPCs really , not players.

With this said , even then i think it lacks real flavor.

Aye, its the kinda of Archetype you'd give a cohort. Especially if you've got some DM who is like "There is no way you could carry 30,000 copper pieces, 10,000 silver and a two-ton golden statue out of that dungeon! Its too heavy!"

"You're right DM, I can't carry it out. However Nobert over there can. Particularly after Merciul the Magnificate has his rogue sapper companion Crowbar strip all the bits and pieces of metal off everything. Oh and we're taking the front door too."

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For me, I'm a person who looks at the character, what I want them to do, and what the numbers are, and what they are.

I hate rolling up a character who is like "I'm a totally awesome trickster, capable of escaping situations, and more. " and then the character ends up just playing like superman 64.

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What I would have loved to have seen in the book..

PRC like the Mystic Theurge that allows one to combine Arcane with Psychic.

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Exotic Weapon Prof.

Why? Cause half the time the weapons are very similar if not practically the same thing as a previous weapon in both form and functionality. Then most of the other half its because its not European.

Somehow firearms starts off as EWP items, but can move down to Simple depending on how common they are. While Crossbows stay exactly where they are.

Speaking of Crossbows, EWP affects only the ability to hit, imposing a -4 to hit with the weapon. But for some reason, A heavy repeating crossbow, or a hand crossbow, is so utterly different from Heavy or Light Crossbows that it should be a feat to aim them more properly.

Ones that do it 'right' are weapons that are pretty dang strange, like the flying blade for example. Weapons that are vastly superior to others, to an extent. Or ones that have a basic function if you have martial/simple prof with another weapon, but this one gives you special bonuses only if you're prof with it. That prevents the whole -4 to hit thing, and brings about the feat being more of the training and how to use the strange thing in all its function

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STupid thing I noticed.. You can quick draw a dagger. You can quickdraw a stake. You could even quick draw a ladder. But you can't quick draw a wand. Even though you could like.. stab someone like an improvised dagger with it.

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Right, the point would be that unless the wizard created something that was completely and utterly new, the knowledge that he had to acquire to make it would still be out there. The final pieces of the puzzle wouldn't be of course, but the primary stuff that led him to start making it.

And by completely and utterly new, I'm not talking like the combustion engine being made by whoever invented it. Oil, fire, explosions, kinetic energy and motion, mechanics and the like are all bits and pieces of knowledge that is there.

I'd actually be referring more to an engine that doesn't use any of that. Is somehow powered by a material called unobtanionium, a material that disobeys every single law of nature known to man. It can create energy or even destroy it. That it causes time and space to somehow become manipulated to take you where your were going to, before you even began to go there. Stuff on the level of trying to understand elder gods.

Or perhaps rather making that same combustion engine, during the stone age, back when they were just learning of fire.

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Arachnofiend wrote:
Are... you entirely sure you're playing Pathfinder?

Nope. I'm playing Lutehero: The RPG. Have to get to level seven, then I can get another bandmate, and a bunch of groupies. I might be able to pick up a dog somewhere.

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There's also a lot of flip side to this as well.

Sure you've got the Jerk-off who uses a character who he just goes on about how he's just "Playing his character" while screwing with the rest of the party. But you've also go the other guy with a character thats LG cleric of the god of mercy from the lands of mercy, who's every little bit of back story and feats are about how merciful they are.. And yet they're setting everything on fire and killing orphans brutally in the streets.

Extreme hyberbole I know, But it does happen.

In one of my games (Shadowrun), I've been constantly told not to get stuck in "Playing my character." which happens every single time I start to deviate from the rails that the GM and other players set up. To the point I've nearly stopped playing my character and just let everyone else play it for me. Because clearly, what I want to do, either as what I'd feel what my guy would do (Not go blindly charging into a group of orc gangers armed with only a smoke grenade while the rest of the party fails to negotiate to pull them out of the hole they dug) Or things I'd want to do as a player (Deliver a car bomb to the ganger's hide out later) clearly are bad wrong no good terrible.

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bigrig107 wrote:

If you made it a deer for an arcane caster, why the +2 Wis?

Also, maybe some bonuses to Acrobatics/Know (nature)?

Mostly because I'm trying to avoid making it the perfect race for the class myself. However that doesn't mean I don't want a +2 to int or Cha. Its my main dilemma with all of it.

Perhaps I should just make it the perfect race?

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DM Under The Bridge wrote:

The unfortunate problem with the gunslinger, is that if using "early firearms" you will need to be very close to get the most bang for your buck, and many of the firearms are actually short range. This is fine if you are crawling around dungeons and castles and up close, but really long range opponents like longbow using archers, can take you to pieces. Likewise really fast moving skirmishers, that hit and move beyond your range can be a headache. Maybe your dm wouldn't challenge you with these adversaries, if you are lucky.

Having said that, I despise fast-loading early firearms in my setting and consider them a hideous blot on fantasy. No way.

In your game, I'd totally go for my Iron Man wizard/fighter build.

As in, a wizard who fashions the iron man suit out of magic and a folding platemail. Cause well. Yeah.

Anycase, one big thing I've found with a gunslinger is if you can get an ally to enchant a bullet with the Named Bullet spell, and you're a mysterious stranger with a musket and use that in conjunction with Deadshot, you can pop off a rather HUGE amount of damage.

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HyperMissingno wrote:
If you want a "sensible" solution it's that even level 5 PCs are basically superheroes compared to level one commoners.

Yeah, and you start getting barbarians that can halo jump without a parachute and survive with minor injuries.

And at level one you get this one guy who can shoot fire from his fingers.

On the muzzle loaded guns being loaded so fast.. You seem to be suffering from an acute case of the "Guy at the Gym" syndrome, in which the mundane characters ability to stretch the physical realms of reality greatly causes nonacceptance within your mind matter.

However, on the flip side its highly acceptable for some eighty year old dude to be running around with a bunch of teenagers, mass murdering everything insight with fireballs shooting from his eyes, and lighting bolts from his arse... because that 80 year old dude is specifically stated to be running off of magic 2.0 systems.

But I'll tell you whats going on with this in the world of DnD. Magic permeates everything. I don't mean just the silly finger waggling and riddle speaking kind, but a much deeper type of magic. The magic of being a main character in the world, fates begin slowly bending rules and laws that supporting cast have to follow.

The gunslinger starts getting a point where he no longer reloads the ways of mortal men. Rather, he can start taking the power, creating a trail in the air and drop a bullet, then shove is gun down that trail taking in the bullet. All in one fell motion of managing to also pack his powder, as the fates make everything move perfectly for him for such a mundane task. Of course, this isn't the only way they can do it, but all of them share the same thing.. the mundane boring stuff just.. works for them. Thats why you never have the poop session where your adventures have to fight in line for the last bit of TP at the local inn. Fates! Or why they never have an eyelash fall in their eye in the middle of combat. Fates

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Yeah, the +1/2 bonus things are typically really good for maxing out and then cranking up a skill to 11.

For example a Kitsune Bard (Negotiator)

To tell an impossible lie is a -20

At level 6, You'll have +3 to bluff from The bard's ability. +3 to tell lies. Possibly 16 cha. 6 ranks. +3 class bonus. If this is really your thing you might also have included Skill focus for another +3.

So you're looking at 18 modifier to tell lies. I think we could even go further than that.. But right there you're only taking a -2 to tell someone something that is impossible. Like, "you're on fire."

So, I think I've found a use for Convincing lie. Because now when someone starts screaming and flailing because you bluffed them into thinking they were on fire.. They roll bluff using your modifier.

So you have a bunch of people panicking trying to put out the fire. That doesn't exist.

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Possibly, if they wanted the arcanist to be truely mad..

Spells per day = Int
Spell DC = Cha.
Exploits = Wis. :3

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Alright DCs you'd have..

Acid Jet - Cha for damage and save.
Arcane Barrier - Temp HP equal to Level+Cha
Arcane Weapon - Lasts Cha minutes (min 1)
Bloodline development - spent bonus lasts Cha rounds (min one), Also is used for whatever the bloodline gives here.
Consume Magic items - No Cha effect
Dimensional Slide - No Cha effect
Energy shield - no cha effect, lasts strangely enough Arcanist levels in minutes. Also can protect from any energy type, including positive, force, negative etc.
Familiar - No Cha effect
Flame Arc - Cha damage/save
Force Strike - No Cha effect.. Deals damage based on arcansit level
ice Missle - Cha damage/save
Item Crafting - No Cha effect
Lighting Lance - Damage/save
Metamagic Knowledge - No cha effect
Metamixing - No Cha effect
Potent Magic - No Cha effect
Quick study - No Cha effect
School understanding - Cha replaces Int, Boost for Cha mins.
See magic - No cha effect
Spell disruption - Lasts Cha rounds, Saving throw
Spell resistance - Cha Rouns duration
Spell Tinkerer - No Cha effect

Greater Exploits

Alter Enhancements - Cha duration
Burning flame - saving throw
counter drain - no cha
Dancing electricity - saving throw
energy absorption - no cha
greater counterspell - no cha
greater metamagic knowledge - no cha
Greater spell resistance - cha duration

Blah bla

Suffering Knoweldge - can cast a spell for cha rounds.

So basically there is a few things that are important if you need a duration on something or damage saving through. But there is more than enough to just go int.

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I'm one of the some folks then.

Though something interesting, One of our games, we've got a guy who wrote 3-4 page long backstory (at least) for one of his characters, another page of her description, and over all is very invested rp wise in his characters. He'll take things that mechanically flawed ( like extra penalties and the like, because it fits his character's stories.) you know, the whole kit and kaboodle of RP things.

Then we play the game, and he unleashes a monotonous wave of the most boring wooden roleplaying I've ever seen with someone so invested in the character's back story, that I feel like I'm about to fall asleep!

I mean seriously, its bloody difficult to separate his different characters and himself from the character. Now he doesn't need to speak in funny accents or things like that, but I wish he'd at least give a little to his in game RP ability.

I'll admit that sometimes I do it too, like my pilot for our starwars game, who hasn't been able to fly the darned ship since I made him because everyone else is jumping into the pilot seat every time. (Then sometimes people complain that I didn't do anything that session.)

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I had a DM who ran things kinda like that. Where the name of the class was what you where, especially if it had anything to do with the Orient.

The first game you could not play a monk, ninja, samurai or anything else that had a name from the orient. One of the characters I had thought of playing as a result, was a guy who ran around with no armor and punched things with his fist, due to all his unarmed combat training and the like. But not a monk of course. Cause no matter how I built the character, the DM only saw the name monk = Oriental guy.

The game he was getting ready to run was an oriental campaign game. The Dm Did it again, where the name was what you where. In his particular case he banned everything he felt wasn't japanese enough, and switched around some classes and the like. Two particular classes of note where Divination Wizard and Shaman. To play a wizard you had to specilize in divination magic, and the reason for this was because to him, this was "an onmyoji"

Looking at Onmyoji through wikipedia articles and other online sources, including various anime, some of which where specifically built around this particularly kind religious shaman of Japanese history, I had concluded that the mechanics of one would be best suited by taking Shaman, as everything came back to their different domains, and spells and the fact the could see spirits.

In order to play a character that called himself an Onmyoji, I was basically shackled to absolutely playing a particular class. Shaman ended up being proclaimed to be mountain priests. (Which where originally another class the DM decided wasn't good enough for his japanese world) Because that is what was deemed as such. If the game ever does start, I have decided I wasn't going to deal with this.

I do find it very funny though that people who say the class name and class fluff is your character, compare the view that being concered with the mechanics of the character is akin to 'playing a video game' when you know, Time and time again in video games, your class dictates who you are. Like in Ragnarok online (Since I didn't play WoW) If you picked a Priest, you had a pre-set appearance. You where also expected to play a certain way. And you always came from the main city's church.

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Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
blahpers wrote:
If I'm making a rogue, I won't make a "slayer" even if it is mechanically superior because the class description and moniker do not fit the sort of character I'm making.

Personally, my character is not defined by his class. All my character's class does is define what he can do.

Using the class description as your character bio does not strike me as imaginative.

I'm in the very same boat here. Mechanics are what define what my character can do. And who my character is often is reflected by those mechanics. Not some rather arbitrary label and description of one piece of my character.

For example

Behold,The Horse

wiki wrote:
The horse (Equus ferus caballus)[2][3] is one of two extant subspecies of Equus ferus. It is an odd-toed ungulate mammal belonging to the taxonomic family Equidae. The horse has evolved over the past 45 to 55 million years from a small multi-toed creature into the large, single-toed animal of today. Humans began to domesticate horses around 4000 BC, and their domestication is believed to have been widespread by 3000 BC. Horses in the subspecies caballus are domesticated, although some domesticated populations live in the wild as feral horses. These feral populations are not true wild horses, as this term is used to describe horses that have never been domesticated, such as the endangered Przewalski's horse, a separate subspecies, and the only remaining true wild horse.

If the picture there was the mechanics, it doesn't matter what you called it. If you're not calling it a baby duck, it doesn't just become a baby duck.

Romeo wrote:
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet

is basically what it is. Switching the description of Rogue and Wizard doesn't suddenly make the wizard a rogue or vice versa. It makes them mislabeled.

Then the slayer comes along, kinda like this..


wiki wrote:
The Clydesdale is a breed of draught horse derived from the farm horses of Clydesdale, Scotland, and named after that region. Although originally one of the smaller breeds of draught horses, it is now a tall breed. Often bay in colour, they show significant white markings due to the presence of sabino genetics. The breed was originally used for agriculture and haulage, and is still used for draught purposes today. The Budweiser Clydesdales are some of the most famous Clydesdales, and other members of the breed are used as drum horses by the British Household Cavalry. They have also been used to create and improve other draught breeds.

Now we've finally got a horse! Its no longer a baby duck, but an actual horse. Its a bit specific now, but at least its a horse. And that is a lot of the problem with things here. The mechanics do not back up the name, the role, the concept of things like the Rogue quite as well as they should.

The Rogue has bled out in Pathfinder. The things it gets is very subpar a bit too often. My biggest one I've got a beef with was Esoteric Scholar

Now Esoteric Scholar means basically someone who studies things that are intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest.

But the mechanics of the talent does not back up it up. Getting the feat, Mechanically by RAW limits you to a single knowledge check per day. RAI, we can assume that it was really meant to let you roll once per day for untrained knowledge checks. But you know, if you where someone who studied things intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest you'd probably actually put skill points in there. Just one skill point per knowledge skill,and Viola, you've got that talent beat, making you truly an Esoteric Scholar more so than taking the talent ever would.

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SockPuppet wrote:

What stops you from taking spring attack? I've played a lot of characters like that. I think mobility and spring attack on a dex based fighter works just fine.

The reason people don't bother with it is because GMs and modules cater to the idea that 99% of the time the party can win any fight without healing or running. If you don't need healing or escape or MOBILITY, the only measure of success is how fast you crush encounters, or how much more damage you do than another player.

If 1/3 of encounters are unwinnable for an optimized party and the PCs know it at character creation, you see a whole lot more shape shift, spring attack, healing spells, fog clouds and horses.

Well lets break it down then shall we?

First off you need a total of three feats to have spring attack, Dodge mobility and of course Spring attack.

This means without bonus feats, you cannot have spring attack till level 5. Which alright, its okay since its a BAB +4 requirment which means you couldn't have it any earlier than level 4.

Now that we've spent the first 3 feats we have on spring attack, you know what we didn't get?

Weapon Finesse. So we'd have to go to level seven without bonus feats to get weapon finesse. Or we're suffering 2 or 3 points of AB decreases, if not more.

Obviously we want that ahead of the game don't we? Cause Doesn't matter how mobile we are. If we can't hit the enemy, we will eventually get killed.

So we've got our first four feats selected now, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse and finally Spring attack. But wait.. Enemies tend to have DR too. And here we're fighting with no real str bonus, and everything is reliant on our weapon damage mostly. Sounds like we should get Vital Strike. I mean, come on that feat is Built for these things. Wait whats that? We can't use VS with SA? Seriously?!

So now our little rapiers and knives are not doing much damage at all against anything with DR agaist them. So we've gotta go take weapon focus and slashing grace, or something to add our dex or something to the weapons damage.

TL;DR - Basically the point I'm trying to make, is that feats are very limited. And a single attack a turn does not a mobile fighter make, but its nothing more than a mear ant scratch. We're taking about people who can Jump out of a plane without a parachute and survive with only minor injuries

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Tels wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I'm sorry why do I need to protect the spellcasters? They are soooo much better than martials. If they want meatshields to stand in between themselves and the enemy they can cast summon monster themselves.

The swashbuckler should be striking the enemy spellcasters, or trolling monsters with great damage spikes and spring-attacking retreats. I'm sick of people complaining about martial classes because they can't imagine how to play differently.

I dunno, maybe because this isn't a caster/martial disparity theorycraft? In actual play, the Wizard doesn't get to walk around with ass-tons of spells on him all the time, especially at lower and mid-levels.

So you guys are in a dungeon, and you get ambushed by some minotaurs. Swashbuckler springs forward and bounces around the room while dealing damage. Now the Minotaur has a chance to charge the casters, which they do. Now you have a minotaur in the face of the Wizard and the Cleric. GG Swashbuckler!

Or, if he stood still, maybe he moves forward a bit and blocks the path of at least one minotaur! Or he sticks near to the Casters so he can get some buffs and also fend off the Minotaurs before they drop a caster.

The reality is, Casters don't become gods until they can always keep their defenses up. They're squishy for a reason, you know.

If there were another martial, or the Swashbuckler were a 5th man, I'd agree, he should be bouncing around a room, swinging from drapes and chugging his flagon... but the sad truth is, if you aren't between the casters and the enemy, the casters are going to be in trouble. Which means you've failed as a front-line martial.

So basically if you are a guy who doesn't have spells, and you have a melee weapon, you are a failure unless you're irish fist fighting with all the monsters, while Pretty spell casters can play whatever they want as they want, how they want?

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Though in terms of obsolete/less attractive, Just because you can have fun with a level one commoner in a game where everyone is level 20 mythic characters doesn't mean that the classes aren't less attractive/Obsolete.

I've had people go off on my explanation of why the mystic theuge kinda sucks (DnD/Pathfinder being an Arms Race mechanically) with them countering that they can roleplay without levels or mechanics or anything at all. In fact, apparently they roleplayed using Starcraft. And thats why Mystic Theuge is a good class and overpowered.

Its a very strange case where they seperated themselves out of all the mechanics, the Rollplay, aspect of DnD/Pathfinder and use Roleplay with no mechanics as not only means of saying the Rollplay was good, but totally works out.

Don't get me wrong, it doesn't have to be Roleplay vs Rollplay. They can play together and blend in, and ideally they should be able to blend together perfectly. But you can't just completely remove Rollplay from the Roleplay and shout out that is why the rollplay is balanced.

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Ask him if you get to attack everyone within the 5' area around you when you use dazzling display.

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Feral wrote:

Yes. Swashbuckler is overpowered.

The problem with these comparisons is that they’re always made against the most optimized example possible. A swashbuckler built with a moderate amount of system mastery when paired side by side against any other martial class is going to blow them out of the water. No, he’s not without his weaknesses but it’s still far too powerful.

I suggest you ban swashbuckler until your group gets a bit more experience under their belt.

Right, thats like banning Wizard because someone who is playing rogue decide to use his rogue talents on estroic scholar, and skill focuses, pumped his int to 18, and dropped his str/dex.

You're basically stomping on person's fun, because someone else has no idea what they are doing.

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I misspelled it. Its Esoteric Scholar that states

"Benefit: Once a day, a rogue with this talent may attempt a Knowledge check, even when she is not trained in that Knowledge skill."

That is it. Which according to the RAW of this talent, you can only make even trained knowledge checks once per day.

Clearly it is intended to be

"Benefit: Once a day, a rogue with this talent may attempt a Knowledge check she is not trained in."

Which still is pretty wonk, when you got all these other classes who can do this an unlimited number of times per day. (Bard, Investigator, some random archetypes and prestige classes)

Limiting resources on a martial class is okay up to a point. But there really needs to be some actual thought put into them, especially when a magic class gets the same thing unlimited times per day.

Another big one is with Swashbuckler and their "Charmed Life" vs a paladin's Cha to saves. Because not only is that one uses per day, but it also takes up actions to use.

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