Merellin |
So, I was looking at the shifter class and.. Right now it dosent actualy look bad, It looks pretty good and very intresting. The base shifter, The Elementalist Shifter and the Swarm Shifter all seem super fun and not that bad.
So I wanted to ask, Has anyone actualy looked at it recently and has it been fixed? All threads I find talking about it claim it is worthless and weaker then a NPC class, But they are also all quite old threads.. So for people who has looked at it recently, Is it still super weak and just seem good? Or has it been fixed and is useable now?
Chell Raighn |
It really depends on how you intend to play one and your feat selections... the class at its core isn’t terrible... though it still has some issues...
If you are looking for Wildshape, it’s not good unless you take one of the archetypes that changes it to get a Druids wildshape. The shifters wild shape is horribly underpowered still and a logistical nightmare to keep track of its restrictions, limits, and uses...
If you want a natural weapon combatant on the other hand, it is phenomenal. Not only do you get a powerful natural weapon that gets stronger as you level, but you get to make full iterative attacks with said natural weapon, something no other natural weapon attacker gets. Sure any other natural attacks are at a -5 when you do so, but it’s worth it for the three extra attacks in a round by level 20. Weapon Finesse and Shifter’s Edge are two of your best feat choices as well for some exceptional damage... sadly Shifter’s Edge precludes you from using an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists for dex to damage though...
Coolwasabi |
Most of their abilities are just adding flat numbers so they can be effective in combat through that. But they are probably always doing the same thing and fall flat if that is ever countered they don't have many other options.
I agree with Chell in that the archetypes for normal wildshape give it some more versatility and options. But the base class to me still feels like a hollow unchained monk without any abilities ki powers or style stuff to choose from, instead getting a usually underwhelming wild-shape.
avr |
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Shifters have full BAB but no bonus feats and their accuracy booster overlaps with basic magic items or automatic bonus progression. That's not a good start. Druids and spell-using shapeshifters can cherry-pick the best forms, shifters get an OK but not amazing selection, and the vanilla shifter has a very limited subset of that selection.
The adaptive shifter archetype actually gets some unique abilities that druids etc. don't. It's probably better to consider that the basic shifter.
Swarm shifter is just weird because they didn't want to give out all the swarm effects. It makes a strangely powerful grappler eventually (no counter-grapples allowed) but it's under par in every other way. Elementalist shifter is OK.
Wonderstell |
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The Shifter is usable, sure. It just doesn't bring anything new to the table (as Derklord said) and is worse than existing options. The only reason you'd have to choose the Shifter is because the druid feels complicated. Kind of like playing a Warpriest with negative wisdom because you feel spells are annoying to remember.
So, I was looking at the shifter class and.. Right now it dosent actualy look bad, It looks pretty good and very intresting. The base shifter, The Elementalist Shifter and the Swarm Shifter all seem super fun and not that bad.
Funny you should mention those two archetypes specifically. They're both in the very awkward spot where it's better to wield weapons than to rely on natural attacks. Not very shifter-y archetypes.
Take the Elementalist. If you actually transform into one of your major aspects you can't communicate effectively, can't use Elemental Strike, and lose pretty much all combat prowess. With the exception of new movement types, none of the benefits are worth it.
Slyme |
I would rate it as a low tier 5 class on its own...barely mediocre at it high point. If you absolutely min-max it to death, you might get it up to tier 4...but that is a stretch. If you use 3rd party rules, you can salvage it and make it a decent class, but Paizo completely abandoned 1e before they could get around to making it into a proper class.
If you like the Oozemorph archetype...just forget it exists...that archetype is so badly written it drops the class down to a low tier 6...without some heavy home brew fixes, it is on par with NPC classes like Aristocrat and Commoner.
Derklord |
Druids and spell-using shapeshifters can cherry-pick the best forms, shifters get an OK but not amazing selection, and the vanilla shifter has a very limited subset of that selection.
In practise, that's actually not much of an issue, because WS Druids use the same few forms anyway: Deinonychus, Dire Tiger, Allosaurus, one for each size. Shifter can actually keep up with the numbers even without different forms. WS Druids only take something different if they need to fly or swim, and Shifter can do that as well. The power level of the Shifter's forms is limited and there's nothing like, say, a Deathsnatcher, but the same could be said about WS Druid.
The adaptive shifter archetype actually gets some unique abilities that druids etc. don't. It's probably better to consider that the basic shifter.
While certainly much better written (it gets Character Shaping Choices!), Adaptive Shifter is not exactly a godsend saviour: The delayed Wild Shape is just insulting, the reduces number of hours per day adds prevents using Planar Wild Shape, and there's still no reason to fully stay in class, although Adaptive Shifter is dead "only" after 9th level (when you get permanent flight).
I would rate it as a low tier 5 class on its own...barely mediocre at it high point. If you absolutely min-max it to death, you might get it up to tier 4...but that is a stretch.
No. Not only is the tier list is about potential, which includes optimization, the idea that Shifter is "low tier 5 class" is completely unfounded. It's a much better martial than any of the tier 5 classes, because multiple natural attacks + pounce is a strong combination. It also has significantly more outfight ability thanks to long-lasting flight at 5th level.
Dragon78 |
The dragon and fey archetypes are not bad, but since they don't replace Wis with Cha for class abilities and AC make them much less useful for me. Also the dragon one doesn't get form of the dragon 3 and they could have given them more abilities if they replaced the druid/nature themed abilities.
I really wish the base class got more natural attacks and natural attack options.
SheepishEidolon |
I like the shifter. It's not the master of many forms the class name suggests, but a decent straight-forward melee combatant.
IMO the lack of bonus feats is not a biggie - most is baked into the class already. And you don't need an accuracy booster that urgently, if all your attacks are resolved at full BAB. Not counting that at least two aspects give you an accuracy booster (enhancement on Str / Dex) that you usually would need an item for - meaning you get it guaranteed at a certain level, plus you can use the money and item slot in another way.
Wis to AC gets augmented by 1/2 Wis to AC when lightly armored - doesn't sound like much, but should be a real blessing at low level. A monk has real trouble to compensate the lack of light armor first (would need Wis 18 for chain shirt level), but a shifter easily gets away with Wis 14.
Shifter might be outclassed by druid at some point, but full BAB (especially for feat unlock), natural attacks even without polymorph, more uses of wild shape per day, less need for high Wis and better AC give you an edge first. And honestly, we don't need another class in "tier 1" - which is basically an nice wording for "toxic in the hands of the wrong player".
Finally, half of the campaigns are dead by level 8 or 9 anyway, according to the 2018 survey. In such a case you don't have to care about high level issues anyway...
Darche Schneider |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would rate it as a low tier 5 class on its own...barely mediocre at it high point. If you absolutely min-max it to death, you might get it up to tier 4...but that is a stretch. If you use 3rd party rules, you can salvage it and make it a decent class, but Paizo completely abandoned 1e before they could get around to making it into a proper class.
If you like the Oozemorph archetype...just forget it exists...that archetype is so badly written it drops the class down to a low tier 6...without some heavy home brew fixes, it is on par with NPC classes like Aristocrat and Commoner.
If you want to play Oozemorph, play a Vigilante instead. They take two of the best abilities off the ooze morph as vigilante talents.
Slyme |
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Morphic Weaponry is garbage for the Oozemorph...and only mildly better for the Vigilante. The damage never scales, and they never innately count as magic or bypass any sort of DR. At least the vigilante can equip items like Amulet of Mighty Fists to get around part of that limitation.
Malleable Flesh is pretty cool...but the flavor of the character is completely different.
For me, the most interesting part of playing an Oozemorph was the concept of the archetype...you permanently become an ooze, that can shift into humanoid and animal shapes. Like Odo from Deep Space 9, or the T1000 Terminator...the vigilante version feels more like Mr. Fantastic from the Fantastic 4...stretchy and bendy, but still mostly whatever race you started as.
SheepishEidolon |
Morphic Weaponry should work well, at least in humanoid form. Getting additional full BAB attacks later (at 6 and 15) means you keep up with two-weapon fighting. Not being forced to aim for high Dex or spend multiple feats is a clear advantage over TWF. Amulet of Mighty Fists functions while in humanoid form, and it also boosts further attacks you get from items.
At level 1 to 3, you have only a single hour per day as humanoid. That can be limiting, but usually you have few magic items then anyway.
Darche Schneider |
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You become an ooze.. but also not. Its like getting a pirate class, but it gives you hydrophobia, and the fear of boats, rum, and parrots. And you have to say ARRR, for every word you speak. Also, you have to roll a will save or you stab the nearest party member.
Its not the magic items that oozemorph hurts at early levels. Its how are you going to adventure with the party, as you no longer have the ability to speak or communicate at all with the rest of the party.
Slyme |
For an Oozemorph, communication isn't too bad of an issue if you are creative. You can do fun stuff like take the Expressive Pantomime character trait and communicate via games of Charades. 1 tap for yes...2 for no. Write out communication via slime trails...All sorts of alternative means of communication that isn't verbal.
Morphic Weaponry falls into the problem of never scaling it's damage, and never bypassing DR, so at higher levels you might hit things a dozen times...but it will likely be for minimal (if any) damage. At higher levels, you are far better off just shifting into a form that has innate attacks, and ignoring morphic weaponry.
The most limiting factor for the Oozemorph is that they built it in a way that none of the baseline Shifter errata applies to it, since the archetype replaces pretty much every ability instead of modifying them, so you don't qualify for any of the feats that apply to shifters claws, or wildshape, your shapeshifting is limited to 1 use per day until level 4, 2 uses at level 4, etc. By level 6 it starts to become a non-issue...but the entire beginning of your adventuring life you are going to be stuck as a useless pile of goo that can't equip items, wield items, speak, might be marginally useful against fodder type opponents...unless they are wielding swords.
There are any number of easy fixes you can apply in home games to make them at least a functional character, but if you play PFS rules, or your GM doesn't allow home brew or 3rd party materials, just ignore the Oozemorph.
deuxhero |
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The only reason you'd have to choose the Shifter is because the druid feels complicated. Kind of like playing a Warpriest with negative wisdom because you feel spells are annoying to remember.
That remind's me of Shifter's biggest flaw: A Druid with negative wisdom is better at it in everything except BAB (meh). A class focused on shapeshifting ought to at least be the best shapeshifter or a serious contender, but loads of existing shapeshifter options were better in every way.
Darche Schneider |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For an Oozemorph, communication isn't too bad of an issue if you are creative. You can do fun stuff like take the Expressive Pantomime character trait and communicate via games of Charades. 1 tap for yes...2 for no. Write out communication via slime trails...All sorts of alternative means of communication that isn't verbal.
Morphic Weaponry falls into the problem of never scaling it's damage, and never bypassing DR, so at higher levels you might hit things a dozen times...but it will likely be for minimal (if any) damage. At higher levels, you are far better off just shifting into a form that has innate attacks, and ignoring morphic weaponry.
The most limiting factor for the Oozemorph is that they built it in a way that none of the baseline Shifter errata applies to it, since the archetype replaces pretty much every ability instead of modifying them, so you don't qualify for any of the feats that apply to shifters claws, or wildshape, your shapeshifting is limited to 1 use per day until level 4, 2 uses at level 4, etc. By level 6 it starts to become a non-issue...but the entire beginning of your adventuring life you are going to be stuck as a useless pile of goo that can't equip items, wield items, speak, might be marginally useful against fodder type opponents...unless they are wielding swords.
There are any number of easy fixes you can apply in home games to make them at least a functional character, but if you play PFS rules, or your GM doesn't allow home brew or 3rd party materials, just ignore the Oozemorph.
Oh that reminds me, Ooze morphs "natural weapons" also don't actually count as any natural weapon. So you can't take feats that enhance your bite attack, cause the ooze morph doesn't have them.
Sam Phelan Customer Service Representative |
SheepishEidolon |
Alright, I was curious and spent some more thoughts on the first levels.
Social interaction
Since you can mostly ignore two mental stats and the third (Wis) is just one of several important, you will usually leave the NPC interaction to others anyway. Interaction with PCs can be done with "blob body language" etc.. Further, you start out with a single hour of being humanoid, so if you want to talk, plan accordingly. Finally, having many different shapes can be nice for deception - you are not restricted to a specific humanoid form.
Problem solving (beside violence)
Not the job of a martial, but you can offer compression to get to many places - which works especially well with a Small character. Ooze empathy is niche, but might save you from a few fights during a campaign. Who knows, depending on the GM an ooze might even turn on other dangerous creatures.
Combat (ooze form)
You are immune to crits, sneak and flanking. Saves you from the odd greataxe wielding orc or city rogues. Items don't protect you, but mage armor does. At level 2, you get Wis to AC, resulting in monk-like AC. With your two morphic weapons, your damage output is also monk-like, but you get to choose the damage type. Nice against skeletons and zombies, if you wait until you know the enemy. Power Attack should make your damage output solid.
Combat (humanoid form)
AC goes up a bit thanks to armor (assuming no mage armor), but you lose your immunities. You gain full benefits from alter self, meaning +2 Str / Dex, and probably darkvision / scent / a swim speed / a desired size change for Stealth or Intimidate. When it comes to weapons, you now can choose from a simple one (longspear comes to my mind), the ones from alter self and your morphic weapons. Keep in mind morphic weapons don't occupy your hands, so you can easily threaten 10 feet around you. In any case, Power Attack works fine for all these weapons. If the single hour of humanoid shape is not enough, you can try to make the Fortitude checks - challenging, but at least their DC doesn't scale with level.
Sounds like a good package to me.
Ryan Freire |
sadly Shifter’s Edge precludes you from using an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists for dex to damage though...
I feel like mathematically as long as you don't completely neglect strength shifters edge comes out ahead on damage. Its more like it SAVES you from needing an agile amulet of mighty fists.
Darche Schneider |
One thing is the oozemorph does not get their wisdom to AC. They get a small amount of damage reduction instead.
The big problem with power attack is that it lowers you attack bonus, resulting in less hits with a class and archetype that doesn't get bonuses to hit normally beyond a high bab. Runs into a lot of the same issues rogues do in this regard, and only has a point or two higher bab for a good number of levels.
Derklord |
I feel like mathematically as long as you don't completely neglect strength shifters edge comes out ahead on damage. Its more like it SAVES you from needing an agile amulet of mighty fists.
Let's do the math! 4th, 8th, and 12th level, Deinonychus major aspect. 2nd form is Falcon, 3rd is Electric Eel (1d3 damage from minor aspect at 12th). 19/22/25 Str/Dex (13 STR for the Dex builds), +2 Str from WS. Spending 2/3/4 feats on damage. 8th and 12th level have Haste. AoMF is 0/1/3 (Agile at 8+ for dex-build). We're pouncing an average CR 4/8/12 monster. I'll calculate with the Foreclaws being secondary attacks, even though the description doesn't say so.
4th level:
Str: Power Attack and Chaos Reigns, DPR is 36.2
Dex: Weapon Finesse and Power Attack. DPR is 19.8
Edge: Weapon Finesse and Shifter's Edge. DPR is 18.7
8th Level:
Str: Power Attack, Chaos Reigns, and Demonic Style. DPR is 105.1
Dex: Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, and Demonic Style. DPR is 69.3
Edge: Weapon Finesse, Shifter's Edge, and Power Attack. DPR is 67.2
12th Level:
Str: Power Attack, Chaos Reigns, Demonic Style, and Mutated Shape. DPR is 167.8
Dex: Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Demonic Style, and Mutated Shape. DPR is 116.2
Edge: Weapon Finesse, Shifter's Edge, Power Attack, and Mutated Shape. DPR is 119.4
These are, of course, only sample feat combinations, optimized for pounce damage, but it shows that both dex builds are pretty similar in damage. The main problem with Shifter's Edge is that it only works well if you stay in class - and there's not much of a reason to.
The big problem with power attack is that it lowers you attack bonus, resulting in less hits with a class and archetype that doesn't get bonuses to hit normally beyond a high bab.
Don't forget the +2 strength from Alter Self.
SheepishEidolon |
One thing is the oozemorph does not get their wisdom to AC. They get a small amount of damage reduction instead.
The big problem with power attack is that it lowers you attack bonus, resulting in less hits with a class and archetype that doesn't get bonuses to hit normally beyond a high bab. Runs into a lot of the same issues rogues do in this regard, and only has a point or two higher bab for a good number of levels.
You are right, defensive instinct is replaced. The damage reduction is odd, like the whole archetype: I find 4 points at level 2 to be very strong, but being bypassed by slashing means it works only half of the time. It gets another bump at level 4, and afterwards progression "slows" down to invulnerable barbarian speed. With no chance to boost it further, opposed to a barbarian.
Oozemorph doesn't need a built-in accuracy booster since morphic weapons work at full BAB. The usual class level based accuracy booster (rage, weapon training etc.) roughly compensates the drop of average AB during a full-attack, due to iterative attacks. A level 6 fighter might be happy about his second attack, but actually his average AB drops by 1.5 points during a full-attack: Average of +6 and +1 is +3.5, 1.5 points lower than the previous +5. Weapon training 1 pretty much offsets this. Haste, TWF etc. are ignored for this example, but don't change much.
So if "normal" martial classes can afford Power Attack, oozemorph can too. Especially since 1d6 begs to be augmented, and at the first levels, during a full-attack you get the +2 damage two times, where a "normal" two-handed martial "only" gets +3. And for the cases where two-handed is superior (standard attack, AOO): In humanoid shape you can have both the +3 and a halved (secondary natural) two +2s, meaning a +5 overall. At level 1.
Toxie2725 |
Wonderstell wrote:The only reason you'd have to choose the Shifter is because the druid feels complicated. Kind of like playing a Warpriest with negative wisdom because you feel spells are annoying to remember.That remind's me of Shifter's biggest flaw: A Druid with negative wisdom is better at it in everything except BAB (meh). A class focused on shapeshifting ought to at least be the best shapeshifter or a serious contender, but loads of existing shapeshifter options were better in every way.
That's the biggest flaw - for specializing in shapeshifting, its worse at it than most other classes than get it. Paizo went entirely the wrong direction with the shifter, and it shows. People wanted a class that would be BETTER at changing shape than the others, not one that mutates into weird combined animals or whatever it is that the shifter was designed to do lol.
SheepishEidolon |
Don't forget...if you go for a Strength based Oozemorph, your AC will likely be in the 10-12 range 90% of the time for your first 4-6 levels.
Hrm. I will keep the answer bullet point style, since it includes some repetitions:
* Mage Armor
* second hour of Alter Self at level 4
* ~50% chance to make the Fortitude save for another hour of alter self (and another...)
* daily encounters not necessarily split over many hours
* caster comrades who also plead for not too many adventures per day (actually even the player behind a low level barbarian wants a rest at some point)
Oozemorph definitely can be caught on the wrong foot, sure. But that's necessary for balance, given its significant situational strengths - mainly full-attacks and damage reduction.
Now we could discuss details further and further, but I am content with the impression I got, so I will bow out here.
Slyme |
Slyme wrote:Don't forget...if you go for a Strength based Oozemorph, your AC will likely be in the 10-12 range 90% of the time for your first 4-6 levels.Hrm. I will keep the answer bullet point style, since it includes some repetitions:
* Mage Armor
* second hour of Alter Self at level 4
* ~50% chance to make the Fortitude save for another hour of alter self (and another...)
* daily encounters not necessarily split over many hours
* caster comrades who also plead for not too many adventures per day (actually even the player behind a low level barbarian wants a rest at some point)Oozemorph definitely can be caught on the wrong foot, sure. But that's necessary for balance, given its significant situational strengths - mainly full-attacks and damage reduction.
Now we could discuss details further and further, but I am content with the impression I got, so I will bow out here.
*If you have a party member willing and able to cast it on you
*I did say until level 4*Not something you can rely on with those kinds of odds
*Again, not something you can rely on
*Highly dependent on your group makeup
If you playing in a home game, with a set party, and the other players are willing to devote a portion of their character into enabling your character, the Oozemorph can be an okay character until level 4+...but that is still a big ask, and you are forcing the rest of your party to cater to your under powered character choices. If you play in a home game which starts higher than level 1 you could definitely pull something off with one.
In a PFS setting, bringing an Oozemorph character to the table would just be unfair to the rest of the players, unless you communicated with them all ahead of time and they agree to carry you through the first 4 levels of play. At least you could skip to level 2 by playing pregens for the first few sessions I guess. Or if you GM, save up enough GM credit to just start playing the character at level 4+.
Darche Schneider |
If its the full attack with natural weapons, Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger and the like still have the Ooze morph beat. Because while the ooze morph eventually gets 4 primary 1d6 attacks (Not until level 15), the others don't play with that whole "You can only have this many attacks" that the oozemorph does.
For example, Ratfolk Fighter can start off with 4 natural attacks at level 1. Bite, Claw, Claw, and Tail blade. Yeah the damage dice is a little smaller, but they more than make up for that with getting lots of combat feats and weapon training.
Barbarians often take that whole pounce line, letting them charge and do a full round attack with natural weapons, all while of course getting more to hit and damage with their rage.
Alchemists can get 3 natural attacks at 2nd level with feral mutagen, and more than make up for their 3/4ths bab with more drugs than Scarface.
Vigilantes literally steal the oozemorphs morphic weapony, and can use it while wearing armor and equipment.
Painful Bugger |
Just use the N. Jolly's Legendary Shifter. It has everything the Shifter should have been. Shout out to Adaptive Shifter being pretty good (even though the amount of time you stay wildshaped was to short).
All Paizo had to do was make a full BAB wildshaper with archtypes that changed the wildshape focus to specific creature types based on the shapechanging spells. After that you start making the weird shifters. Probably the easiest class you could have possibly developed. The one class that didnt have a playtest and it shows. Forever the wet fart end of 1st edition.
Derklord |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Reposting:
All threads I find talking about it claim it is worthless and weaker then a NPC class
Shifter was never weak - that's not what the classes problem is. It was always usuable, and actually relatively good for a martial (thanks to early pounce and pretty early acces to flight). The main problem is that the class doesn't offer anything not existing before, and to make things worse, the atrocious design (see detailed analysis below) results in a class that's all but dead after 5th level. Whatever one wants, multiclassing does it better than staying in class - I think I don't have to explain what that says about the class design. Paizo's fix, Shifter's Fury, sucks on any aspect with multiple attack (which includes the ones with pounce, mechanically easily the best ones), the scaling damage on only some of your attacks is a pathetic joke, and the minor aspects are cute at best - none of that is worth class levels. Wilderness Origins added a small incentive to stay in class (the feat allows one to combine pounce and flight), but that's nothing multiclassing couldn't grant, too.
What's wrong with the Shifter?
*takes a very deep breath*
There's a section in the ACG about designing classes. Some extracts and how Shifter breaks them:
"While the rules for a class can share some similarities with those of an existing class, each new class should have something that makes it unusual, giving it a means to interact with the game, and the game’s world, in a new and interesting way."
Every single Shifter class feature was copied from another class (mainly Druid, Hunter, and Monk), and it's supposed novelity of spell-less shapechanger was already done by Metamorph Alchemist and Beastkin Berserker Barbarian - the later even has the exact same "select one form each at 1st/5th/10th/15th/20th level" feature.
"Look for a way that the class can perform its role without coming in contact with the rules of another class. If the rules are too close, you might end up with a class that invalidates (or is invalidated by) an existing class’s mechanics in a way that makes it unappealing to play."
Shifter is completely overshadowed by Druid (plus the two above mentioned archetypes).
"There are a number of questions you should ask yourself.
• Does the class have a novel concept and rules niche?"
Without a single new class feature in sight, it's no big surprise that the answer is "neither".
"As a general rule, (...) you want to avoid dead levels—acquiring new and improved abilities is part of the fun of leveling up!"
Half the levels only grant increases to small bonuses, and sometimes nothing at all, so plenty of dead levels.
The problem is not power level - Shifter is already doing relatively well when it comes to raw damage - but it's versatility. In short, what the Shifter is lacking is what I call Character Shaping Choices™.
Such character shaping choices come in three forms:
1) Daily: Mostly spell preparation and the Medium's spirit.
2) On levelup: Spells known, rage powers, etc., doesn't have to be every level up
3) One time: Domains, bloodline etc., mostly done at first level
I don't count feats, skills, and equipment because it should be obvious that options that literally every class can take have to be relatively weak (otherwise almost every character would take them, cf. Leadership for what happens when this rule is broken). I also don't count choices that don't affect playstyle and only grant minor numeric bonuses, such as a Fighter's weapon training.
Archetypes are technically one time choices as well, if these are included depends on what we want to compare.
Naturally, the more choices you can make, the more you can (in general) shape your character. Also, the more often you can make choices, the more flexibility the character can have. Daily choices don't add power over on levelup choices, but they add a lot of flexibility.
The following classes are generally accepted to be the weakest ones in Pathfinder: Fighter, Brawler, Rogue, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler, Monk.
Apart from the Rogue *, you'll notice that none of these classes have a daily or on levelup choice **. Cavalier and Samurai have a one time choice at first level, while the others don't get to make any character shaping choices at all. It's also noteworthy that there are no classes lacking daily or on-levelup choices that are generally considered good.
Now, choices don't automatically contain strong options (few rogue talents are better than feats), some fixed class features are fairly powerful as well (like rage), and there are options that offer choices to make on the fly, like wildshape or a Summoner's SLA (not character shaping by definition, but can be very powerful). But if you look at both power level and flexibility, there's almost no getting around having class features that allow character shaping choices fairly often.
*) Whoever thought that a pure martial with medium BAB, no accuracy increasing abilities, d8 HD, and the worst possible saves a PC class can have was a good idea?
**) Fighter got on levelup choices with AAT and AWT, while Monk got on levelup choices with UnMonk's Ki Powers and Style Strikes.
The Shifter get's to make one such choice every five levels, and quite frankly, it's just not enough. Since many aspects are very similar, after the second (combat form + flying form), you basically only get the minor form bonuses, and those aren't even remotely character shaping. The class description say the Shifter can "fuse [forms] together with devastating effect", so where is the class feature for that? A limited use Skill Focus is not helping me be devastating!
We already have "can turn into one type of creature all day long" with Druid and Metamorph (and Agathiel Vigilante), and "can turn into one of the few previously selected animals multiple times per day" with Beastkin Berserker.
And then there's the Weretouched Shifter archetype that grants most of the class's goodies, only better. No flight, but 5 instead of 3 primary natural attacks + pounce at 4th level, and no issues with armor or other equipment, making for an excellent base to add a multiclass on; for most builds, Weretouched is just better than vanilla Shifter (and only needs 4 levels).
Thanks for all the replies. I still think the Shifter looks intresting, But I'm understanding it isent the best choise. Might still try it some time though just because it looks fun to try, Maybe for a one shot. Thanks all!
The criticism isn't about "best choice". It's true that the class is atrociously designed, but that doesn't mean a character can't be good or fun. Indeed, especially at the most common levels of play, it's rather good. Some people simply focus on the negative and don't look at the big picture. Not as powerful as a Druid? Class must be worthless! Doesn't have bonus feat or an accuracy boost? Can't be a good martial!
If you want a polymorph-based character, or even any natural attack based character, Shifter is a very good place to start, and Weretouched Shifter even more so. Indeed, for combat prowess, I'd consider Weretouched Shifter the place to start (ignoring Synthesist Summoner). You don't have any reason to stay in class after 4th level (Weretouched) or 5th level (vanilla), but so what? You have a world of multiclassing aviable. Barbarian for rage and more natural attacks? Scout Rogue plus Accomplished Sneak Attacker for plenty of SA on a pounce? Spiritualist with Phantom Ally for a melee tag team? All that and plenty more; a Weretouche Shifter has even more options as its Wild Shape doesn't hinder non-psychic spellcasting.
Shifters have full BAB but no bonus feats and their accuracy booster overlaps with basic magic items or automatic bonus progression.
Forgot to adress this. Natural Attacks is probably the least feat hungry martial playstyle in the game. As for the lack of an accuracy boost (beyond the +2 strength from WS), it doesn't need one - Shifter goes the unMonk route by giving additional attacks instead. That method only really works if the class grants the ability to move and still full attack, but both unMonk and Shifter do that.
Kaouse |
Slyme wrote:I would rate it as a low tier 5 class on its own...barely mediocre at it high point. If you absolutely min-max it to death, you might get it up to tier 4...but that is a stretch.No. Not only is the tier list is about potential, which includes optimization, the idea that Shifter is "low tier 5 class" is completely unfounded. It's a much better martial than any of the tier 5 classes, because multiple natural attacks + pounce is a strong combination. It also has significantly more outfight ability thanks to long-lasting flight at 5th level.
Shifter is decent at melee combat, sure. But what about ranged combat? I'm not so sure you can say that he has "significantly more outfight ability" when compared to Archers. Important to note that Shifter has no way to get both Flight and Pounce simultaneously. So Archers generally have the advantage here, no?
And even if we're comparing melee damage, there's always the issue that natural weapons suffer when it comes to DR, and the Shifter can only ignore certain types of DR with their Shifter Claws, not their other natural attacks. Compare that to 2-handed Power Attack users, who generally deal a large amount of damage per strike, and thereby care relatively little about DR.
Shifter definitely has the ability to deal damage, but I'm not so sure it's all that much better than say, a Fighter when it comes to that. Though maybe "low" Tier 5 was a bit of a stretch...at least after the errata that freed up their uses per day. With more freedom in shifting, I'd wager that they're at least high Tier 5, maybe even bottom-of-the-barrel Tier 4. At least, potentially. Even limited Shapeshifting has SOME utility.
I will however make sure people know that the Beastkin Berserker is easily far and away the superior option, though. What's really crazy is that Beastkin Berserker stacks with Savage Technologist, which fixes Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome by giving you STR + DEX rather than STR + CON. As a result, it actually enables you to pull off both Large and Small creatures without a huge decrease in efficacy. This actually also gives you a semi-decent AC, especially since Rage increases your AC rather than decreases it. Furthermore, the amount of crazy stuff you can pull off once you gain the ability to rage cycle is amazing.
Derklord |
Shifter is decent at melee combat, sure. But what about ranged combat? I'm not so sure you can say that he has "significantly more outfight ability" when compared to Archers.
What does archery have to do with outfight abilities? The ability to turn into a flying creature is huge for outfight ability. Sure, it costs an hour of WS, but when the PC want to get up a cliff, or across a chasm, or into the castle's highest tower, the Shifter can easily do that, probably starting at 5th level. That alone makes them better than most martials, sad as that is.
And even if we're comparing melee damage, there's always the issue that natural weapons suffer when it comes to DR, and the Shifter can only ignore certain types of DR with their Shifter Claws, not their other natural attacks.
"While a shifter uses wild shape to assume her aspect’s major form, her natural attacks gain the same benefits granted by her shifter claws ability." UW pg. 27 Without this, Shifter's Edge wouldn't work.
Shifter definitely has the ability to deal damage, but I'm not so sure it's all that much better than say, a Fighter when it comes to that.
Past 3rd level, Shifter is ahead in practise when it comes to dealing melee damage, because pounce reigns surpreme (again sad, but true).
Important to note that Shifter has no way to get both Flight and Pounce simultaneously. So Archers generally have the advantage here, no?
They do actually, but have to wait until 14th/15th level. Adaptive Shifter has it build in at 6th level.
I will however make sure people know that the Beastkin Berserker is easily far and away the superior option, though.
Maybe for long lasting campaigns, but it's important to remember that Beastkin Berserker has to wait until 8th level to get pounce.
It should also be noted that pretty much all those things only apply to single class Shifter, and as I've said before, there's little reason to stay in class. Weretouched Shifter 4/Stars domain Cleric 5 has pounce, flight, 5 primary natural attacks, and plenty prebuffing potential. Going into Involutionist Spiritualist with the Heaven spirit can grant flight for limited rounds per day starting at 7th total level (presuming Haste), and has a full level Phantom when that's not needed. At 11th total level (around the time a Barbarian gets flight, and a level after Paladin does), flight kicks in for the multiclass builds that went into 6/9 casters, e.g. Jinyiwei Inquisitor which basically has a +6 to attack and damage rolls at that point. Without any prebuffing.
The real competition for the Beastkin Berserker is a not a straight vanilla Shifter, but one (vanilla or Weretouched) multiclassed with Savage Technologist itself.
If its the full attack with natural weapons, Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger and the like still have the Ooze morph beat. Because while the ooze morph eventually gets 4 primary 1d6 attacks (Not until level 15), the others don't play with that whole "You can only have this many attacks" that the oozemorph does.
It's not just other classes, it's other Shifters as well. Weretouched especially does that whole "keep your humanoid shape" thing way better, both purely with natural weapons, and with manufactures ones, or the combination.
Vigilantes literally steal the oozemorphs morphic weapony, and can use it while wearing armor and equipment.
And they still wouldn't want to, because the Tiger's Claws talent is better.
And since I re-read the Adaptive Shifter archetype recently, I notices something in the description for Lasting Adaptation: "She can select a form that has a minimum level only if her character level is at least 3 higher than the minimum level." It says character level, not level or class level. Guess that means an Adaptive Shifter doesn't need to stay in class past 6th level after all, although 3 hours WS per day aren't exactly a lot.
Derklord |
Derklord, why are you saying the Tiger Claws talent is better than Morphic Weaponry? MW does more damage, more varied damage types (B/P/S), more attacks as you go up in level, and doesn't occupy your hands (you can choose to grow tentacles, for example)?
Two reasons:
A) Morphic Weaponry has de facto Malleable Flesh as a prereq, a talent that does almost nothing in itself. Vigilante Talents are worth more than feats, especially since there is no "Extra Vigilante Talent" feat, so that's a notably higher cost.
B) Morphic Weaponry imposes a hard limit, while Tiger's Claws can be combined with other natural attacks, be it from race, multiclassing, feats, or items.
It might be different for a non-natural-attack-centric build, although two talents is still a notable investment for those. For centric builds, I just don't think three natural weapons most of the PC's lifetime good enough to pay two talents on.
Slyme |
Technically, a Vigilante only needs the Shapechanger subtype for Morphic Weaponry. So if they choose a race like Kitsune or Skinwalker (or other races with Shapechanger subtype) they can take it without the need for Malleable Flesh.
Morphic Weaponry does cap your natural attacks, but you can still use them as secondary attacks with a weapon, so there are some possible uses for an Avenger based Vigilante that wants to tack on some secondary natural attacks with a weapon build.
As for Malleable Flesh...I wouldn't say at will compression and disguise self (and being able to squeeze through cracks with all your equipment at higher levels) is 'nothing'
The vigilante talents that steal the 2 core abilities from the Oozemorph makes a generally better Oozemorph than the actual Oozemorph...but it is still not a great choice.