Why is the Incredible Hulk a better pick pocket than Black Widow?


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Seriously.. This is something I can't figure out.

Steal is a combat maneuver, by rules of combat maneuvers you use your STR to perform.

So you get STR + BAB + Size Mod. The Bigger you are, the better your size mod. The Hulk is at least Large, if not Huge. And he's got gallons of str.

Black Widow on other hand, has a fairly decent amount of dex and lots of training. But the moment she gets into combat in pathfinder she suddenly forgets how to perform her pick pocket abilities.

Because by the skills definition, you cannot take objects from people in combat that are aware of your presence. Even though we see it all the flippin time in movies.

I'm pretty sure we even see it in the references I'm talking about right here and now. I know I've seen it in zootopia, deadpool, and a few other movies. I think even Dobby the elf managed to pull this off.

However in Pathfinder, The Incredible Hulk is truly capable of being Incredible at stealing things.

But wait! You might say, The Hulk can't steal things out of combat! Well Now there is a feat for that. Graceful steal. Granted it does replace STR with DEX But the Hulk still gets his size modifiers for being huge, and all his combat abilities. Not to mention he is pretty agile even though he's so big. Maybe Not black Widow agile, but still pretty good.

So basically My rules question in here is.. Did I miss anything? Does Black Widow have go and spend a large number of feats so she can match the Hulk's ability to pick pocket?


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Pick pocket is sleight of hand

Ripping something away from someone is steal.

The hulks so good at it because he takes that thing you're wearing on your ches and your chest with it.

There's also agile manuvers for that sort of thing.


Steal is just disarm for nonweapons.


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BigNorseWolf basically answered it. Black Widow DOES have Agile Maneuvers, Improved Steal and Greater Steal and can therefor take stuff without you knowing. The Hulk just rips it off with one hand while strangling you with the other.


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Graceful Steal (Ultimate Intrigue) now lets you use the Steal Combat Maneuver in place of Slight of Hand, allowing the Hulk use his giant meat fingers to slip into your pockets and pick out the coins in your purse.

If the two are matched feat for feat, In combat The Hulk will still come out on top.

His Full BAB vs her 3/4 BAB = Every four levels she's down one point vs him.

His Size is Large or Huge vs her Medium. That gives him more bonuses.

Even out of combat, His bab matches her ranks in Slight of Hand. His bonus on the feats gives him +4 to performing the check. His size gives him a +2 on the check.

If he has nothing else, she'll barely make it above him in slight of hand, on virtue that she probably has a higher dex bonus than the hulk.


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The Hulk definitely took things like Raging Vitality, Power Attack, etc., and not the stealy-thiefy feats Black Widow took. I'd assume the Hulk didn't take Graceful Steal, Greater Steal, or even Improved Steal. People notice Steal Maneuvers unless you have Greater Steal, whereas Sleight of Hand requires a check to notice. However, if the Hulk is determined to take something from me by force, I see no reason why the Hulk would have a harder time than Black Widow. The Hulk would stroll on over, grab me, grab the item, and pull until I lost the item or lost my arm. Black Widow would have to maneuver herself to take it, since she's not 10 feet tall and beefy as a meat packing house.


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Darche Schneider wrote:


His Full BAB vs her 3/4 BAB = Every four levels she's down one point vs him.

This is based on what exactly? Why has the "SMASH!" first ask questions later character got more martial skill than the one with years of martial training?


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Isn't Hulk best modeled using alchemist -> master chymist? That's not full BAB.


dot


Umbral Reaver wrote:
Isn't Hulk best modeled using alchemist -> master chymist? That's not full BAB.

Definitely. Just ask your GM (in home games) to allow you to use slam/slam/slam(headbutt) in place of claw/claw/bite with feral mutagen (call it brutal mutagen or something); shouldn't be a problem since you are voluntarily taking a nerf on your damage types.

Vivisectionist/Beastmorph works well, here, too. Beastmorph allows you to describe your own physical changes (turning big and green, for example?) and lets you pick up some handy features that the Hulk should have ready access to - climb, pounce, etc. Sneak attack fits well with the Hulk dealing more damage when his foes ate caught off guard or are unable to defend themselves.


Gulthor wrote:
Sneak attack fits well with the Hulk dealing more damage when his foes ate caught off guard or are unable to defend themselves.

Agreed with everything up to this point. Sneak Attack is precision damage, and the Hulk is anything but precise. Vivisectionist is a strong combination with Beastmorph, but not necessarily Hulklike.


My Self wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
Sneak attack fits well with the Hulk dealing more damage when his foes ate caught off guard or are unable to defend themselves.
Agreed with everything up to this point. Sneak Attack is precision damage, and the Hulk is anything but precise. Vivisectionist is a strong combination with Beastmorph, but not necessarily Hulklike.

I agree to an extent, but 1) dealing the most damage possible is very Hulk-like, and 2) precision damage is about striking vital areas, which the Hulk certainly does. Not with any great subtlety, surely, but if the Hulk catches you off-guard, things are going to be even worse for you.

"Puny god."

EDIT: It's also certainly a better fit than throwing bombs, and you even get to keep Throw Anything so that you can throw boulders and wagons at people.

Scarab Sages

Gulthor wrote:
My Self wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
Sneak attack fits well with the Hulk dealing more damage when his foes ate caught off guard or are unable to defend themselves.
Agreed with everything up to this point. Sneak Attack is precision damage, and the Hulk is anything but precise. Vivisectionist is a strong combination with Beastmorph, but not necessarily Hulklike.

I agree to an extent, but 1) dealing the most damage possible is very Hulk-like, and 2) precision damage is about striking vital areas, which the Hulk certainly does. Not with any great subtlety, surely, but if the Hulk catches you off-guard, things are going to be even worse for you.

"Puny god."

EDIT: It's also certainly a better fit than throwing bombs, and you even get to keep Throw Anything so that you can throw boulders and wagons at people.

Actually, have you read any of the Hulk comics? The hulk is VERY precise. That is why he can rampage through a town and not injure a single citizen. This is also why he can jump for miles and land where he intends to.


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Lorewalker wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
My Self wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
Sneak attack fits well with the Hulk dealing more damage when his foes ate caught off guard or are unable to defend themselves.
Agreed with everything up to this point. Sneak Attack is precision damage, and the Hulk is anything but precise. Vivisectionist is a strong combination with Beastmorph, but not necessarily Hulklike.

I agree to an extent, but 1) dealing the most damage possible is very Hulk-like, and 2) precision damage is about striking vital areas, which the Hulk certainly does. Not with any great subtlety, surely, but if the Hulk catches you off-guard, things are going to be even worse for you.

"Puny god."

EDIT: It's also certainly a better fit than throwing bombs, and you even get to keep Throw Anything so that you can throw boulders and wagons at people.

Actually, have you read any of the Hulk comics? The hulk is VERY precise. That is why he can rampage through a town and not injure a single citizen. This is also why he can jump for miles and land where he intends to.

Not injuring citizens comes and goes, depending on the author and Hulk's mental state. Generally, the Hulk generates lots of property damage and is known more for hitting hard than hitting precisely. Hulk doesn't beat up targets by aiming for the knees, necks, and nuts, he usually pummels the head and chest, then occasionally body bludgeons. Lots of hitting hard, but not a ton of sneak attacky stuff. He's not significantly more effective as a flanker than he is normally.

Scarab Sages

My Self wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
My Self wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
Sneak attack fits well with the Hulk dealing more damage when his foes ate caught off guard or are unable to defend themselves.
Agreed with everything up to this point. Sneak Attack is precision damage, and the Hulk is anything but precise. Vivisectionist is a strong combination with Beastmorph, but not necessarily Hulklike.

I agree to an extent, but 1) dealing the most damage possible is very Hulk-like, and 2) precision damage is about striking vital areas, which the Hulk certainly does. Not with any great subtlety, surely, but if the Hulk catches you off-guard, things are going to be even worse for you.

"Puny god."

EDIT: It's also certainly a better fit than throwing bombs, and you even get to keep Throw Anything so that you can throw boulders and wagons at people.

Actually, have you read any of the Hulk comics? The hulk is VERY precise. That is why he can rampage through a town and not injure a single citizen. This is also why he can jump for miles and land where he intends to.
Not injuring citizens comes and goes, depending on the author and Hulk's mental state. Generally, the Hulk generates lots of property damage and is known more for hitting hard than hitting precisely. Hulk doesn't beat up targets by aiming for the knees, necks, and nuts, he usually pummels the head and chest, then occasionally body bludgeons. Lots of hitting hard, but not a ton of sneak attacky stuff. He's not significantly more effective as a flanker than he is normally.

Yes, but the point is, he is known for being able to be precise. He just usually doesn't need to be.

Just like Superman is usually very smart in his comics(well, honestly, that comes and goes to. Thank you comic book writers), but he is so strong he can't really show it off in his fights. Since the fastest way to take down an enemy is to just go at them head on as fast and as strong as it necessary to take them out.

But, yes, in the end I can understand the OPs point. That's what you get with the odd maneuver system Pathfinder has along with strength being considered the primary attack stat.


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Quirk of the rules since mechanics do not equal real (or comic book in this case) life.


Yes it is kinda weird this feat can make Raging Barbarians with Strength Surge or heavily armored Stonelord Paladins into top tier pick pockets.

However more possible builds are a good thing and I doubt many of those characters are going to dumb half their feats into a situational manuever, if it does not give fit into their flavor.


Darche Schneider wrote:


Graceful Steal (Ultimate Intrigue) now lets you use the Steal Combat Maneuver in place of Slight of Hand, allowing the Hulk use his giant meat fingers to slip into your pockets and pick out the coins in your purse.

If the two are matched feat for feat, In combat The Hulk will still come out on top.

His Full BAB vs her 3/4 BAB = Every four levels she's down one point vs him.

His Size is Large or Huge vs her Medium. That gives him more bonuses.

Even out of combat, His bab matches her ranks in Slight of Hand. His bonus on the feats gives him +4 to performing the check. His size gives him a +2 on the check.

If he has nothing else, she'll barely make it above him in slight of hand, on virtue that she probably has a higher dex bonus than the hulk.

Fun fact: In Brute Vigilante form, the Hulk has nimbler fingers than when he's a puny human because of the BAB difference between the forms.


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Well for one Black Widow feeling like a full BAB character to me (just like HawkEye). Slayer I think.

Secondly if Black Widow is being a stealthy spy then she gets to use her maxed Sleight of Hand to take things from people. You only need Steal if you're clumsy enough to actually get into a fight and then have to take something by force.

There is no way any Hulk build would take Graceful Steal in any case.


I think I confused the whole lot of you when I said Incredible Hulk vs Black Widow. Because you lot all started running wild with how you'd build the characters from the movies and comics and did not pay attention to the mechanical failure I was presenting.

Forget the comics/movies. Those don't matter in the slightest, but just look at the mechanics of what I'm talking about.

If you had a big hulking barbarian like character who was huge or bigger, he'd have more advantage with the whole ability to steal things. In fact he could easily end up having better ability to steal than a small crafty rogue.

Some lines like

Quote:
You only need Steal if you're clumsy enough to actually get into a fight and then have to take something by force.

don't seem to really take into consideration that you're only as stealthy as the loudest party member in a grand majority of games out there. If you found one where you can split the party and not be eating by a balrog, then great for you. At least for me, That isn't how I typically find games. I'm rarely, if ever, able to seperate form the party.

Combat also isn't something that is like a jigsaw-puzzle in most games I've played. Rather its more like playing jenga in the middle of an earthquake. Its going to happen. Regardless of how skillful you are. Maybe you might be able to dread pirate roberts your way out of it, Maybe you can kitty soft paws it away by stealing it off camera.

But if there is an item you need, and only one person (or a specific group of people) has said item, and you've got no way to copy, mimic or improvise for said item, you're going to come down to a confrontation. And likely that guy is going to be one who isn't just going to give it up to you either.

And then BLAM Combat happens. Suddenly you can't do what you've trained for. Because you've got a big 'Combat Start!' sign above the party. To get that item, you'll have to make a steal combat maneuver check! Didn't train str? Didn't take a full BAB class? Didn't take that Agile maneuvers feat? We'll sucks to be you huh? Even if you've got +99 modifiers to your sleight of hand, you cannot take that item from that enemy. You have to kill him to get it.

But if you have a big beef stick, He can steal that item. Totally. And if said beef stick went and got the right feats, the feats I mentioned, he can really be able to steal that stuff.

Quote:
Pick pocket is sleight of hand Ripping something away from someone is steal.

It might have been. Doesn't change the fact that the Pickpock can't pick your pockets anymore if he didn't take the right feats/bab/etc.

And Graceful Steal Flips everything on its head. Because it allows you to pick pocket in combat using the steal combat maneuver.

Yes. A Colossal Dragon could slip his dragon claw with all of his str right into a pixie's belt pouch and steal her pixie flute. All she gets is a +5 modifier but his size, and str, and CMB is loads higher than hers.

Said Colossal dragon can also steal stuff out of combat, but he has to use his dex modifier now. Because.. its out of combat? (Which does mean he can stash items now, gaining a bonus because of how big he is.)

Liberty's Edge

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But Steal only applies to in combat checks and has nothing to do with picking someone's pockets.

You can only substitute your Steal CMB for Sleight of Hand if you take Graceful Steal. That's a pretty closet case, and not likely to be something Hulk (or a Colossal Red Dragon) would do. So, technically, yes, Hulk COULD, by taking a very specific feat that doesn't match his character build, be better at stealing things in combat than Black Widow. Maybe.

And who says you can't pick someone's pocket in combat? I'm unaware of any limitation on Sleight of Hand that says you can't use it in combat. I'm pretty sure Black Widow can make herself invisible, and she's sneaky as f***. So, combat starts, she goes invisible on her initiative (isn't that a +20 to stealth?) and sneaks up behind the baddie with the item you want. Then she picks his pocket and takes it. It's another issue if baddie is holding it, but if he's holding it in combat, you can assume it's probably providing him/her a combat bonus. So if you've allowed the situation to get to the point where you have to enter combat, yes, the big dude is better able to take the item away. And if the item is in the baddie's pocket, the actual mechanics may allow the big dude a better modifier to Steal (assuming a bizarre/unusual feat choice for a "break all of the things tank") than the sneaky character. But it's still going to be a closet case. If someone's building a high strength, large+ size martial type and spends a feat on Graceful Steal on the off chance that the party will be in a situation where they have to take something from an enemy that their Neidermeyer isn't able to steal outside of combat, I'm going to question their character building acumen.

The Exchange

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ponders a way to work agile maneuvers into this build...


But can it disable constructs and be 15 years old?


Does the Collossal Dragon even qualify for these feats? Graceful Steal needs a 13 Dex, which is quite far off for Mr. Dragon.

Edit: he also needs Agile Manuevers, Improved Steal, and three ranks in Sleight of Hand. Show me a dragon that did that believably, and I'll show you a coward of a dragon.


darth_gator wrote:

But Steal only applies to in combat checks and has nothing to do with picking someone's pockets.

You can only substitute your Steal CMB for Sleight of Hand if you take Graceful Steal. That's a pretty closet case, and not likely to be something Hulk (or a Colossal Red Dragon) would do. So, technically, yes, Hulk COULD, by taking a very specific feat that doesn't match his character build, be better at stealing things in combat than Black Widow. Maybe.

And who says you can't pick someone's pocket in combat? I'm unaware of any limitation on Sleight of Hand that says you can't use it in combat. I'm pretty sure Black Widow can make herself invisible, and she's sneaky as f***. So, combat starts, she goes invisible on her initiative (isn't that a +20 to stealth?) and sneaks up behind the baddie with the item you want. Then she picks his pocket and takes it. It's another issue if baddie is holding it, but if he's holding it in combat, you can assume it's probably providing him/her a combat bonus. So if you've allowed the situation to get to the point where you have to enter combat, yes, the big dude is better able to take the item away. And if the item is in the baddie's pocket, the actual mechanics may allow the big dude a better modifier to Steal (assuming a bizarre/unusual feat choice for a "break all of the things tank") than the sneaky character. But it's still going to be a closet case. If someone's building a high strength, large+ size martial type and spends a feat on Graceful Steal on the off chance that the party will be in a situation where they have to take something from an enemy that their Neidermeyer isn't able to steal outside of combat, I'm going to question their character building acumen.

Quote:

Take Something Unnoticed

If you try to take something from a creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check. The opponent makes a Perception check to detect the attempt, opposed by the Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You cannot use this skill to take an object from another creature during combat if the creature is aware of your presence.

Page 188 Ultimate Intrigue

Quote:

Aware of Presence: The next state is when the perceiving creature is aware of the sneaking creature’s presence,

though not of anything beyond that. This is the state that happens when an invisible creature attacks someone and then successfully uses Stealth so the perceiving creature doesn’t know where the attacker moved, or when a sniper succeeds at her Stealth check to snipe. A perceiving creature that becomes aware of a hidden creature’s presence will still be aware of its presence at least until the danger of the situation continues, if not longer (though memory-altering magic can change this).

So The moment combat starts, if you cast invisibility then, its too late. Unless the target wasn't aware of your presence to begin with. Which if you're needing invisibility, they probably are aware.

There is also two sides to this coin. People are all focusing on the one side the "Big guy won't take the feat cause it don't give more smash." But on the flip side "Small guy won't take the feat because it really doesn't benefit them."


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Umbral Reaver wrote:
Isn't Hulk best modeled using alchemist -> master chymist? That's not full BAB.

Clinton Boomer essentially modeled him as a were-terrasque wizard in his Marvel Pathfinder's page. Not everything has to be done by class.


Hulk don't steal. Hulk take !


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Oh for crying out loud. There's a difference between knowing that Black Widow is presumably still in the vicinity, and being aware of her. By that logic, simply knowing that Black Widow exists is enough to keep her from picking your pockets in combat. You have no reason to suspect she's anywhere near you, let alone right behind you, but you have immunity because you know her name. Please

Also Hulk is at most Large. Most of his forms are less than 8' tall, so those aren't even Large.


Dallium wrote:

Oh for crying out loud. There's a difference between knowing that Black Widow is presumably still in the vicinity, and being aware of her. By that logic, simply knowing that Black Widow exists is enough to keep her from picking your pockets in combat. You have no reason to suspect she's anywhere near you, let alone right behind you, but you have immunity because you know her name. Please

Also Hulk is at most Large. Most of his forms are less than 8' tall, so those aren't even Large.

Well think about it this way.. Vampire comes in and kicks your cleric in the face. Then goes invisible. Did you forget about that vampire? He's still there, (even if he teleported away), until you finally go. "Guys I think he's gone." and carry on with your life.

You might still be on edge, and who wouldn't be? But slowly you don't think he's breathing down your neck anymore, you don't think he's actively trying to kill you.

EDIT:

Of course in no way do I think combat awareness should completely shut down sleight of hand. If anything a feat or rogue talent or something to be able to use it combat. I really don't want more junkyard feats personally. but its what its down to.


This is not a rules question. Rules questions are to find out how a rule works in game. You want to know why a rule exist and/or why it works the way it does with regard to typical tropes of the small dex based character compared to larger characters and the larger character having an unusual advantage.

The answer is this is an abstraction, and you went with the hulk vs black widow. Yes in real life the hulk, the thing or any other similar sized combatants are not putting their hands in your pockets, but this is Pathfinder and reality(I can swim in lava) went out the window a long time ago. <----That is pretty much how I look at a lot of things instead of trying to make sense of them.

Also CMB's and skill bonuses are pretty even barring some extreme build.

At level 11 as an example you can see a CMB bonus of about +20
BAB 11
attribute modifier 7
weapon focus 1
feat +2
=20(basic attempt)

barbarian with strength surge, size modifers(non class specific), and other things can increase this number
--------
skill 11+3(class skill)
attribute modifier 7
You can then go on to

=23(basic attempt)

add skill focus and other feats for another 10
mw item+2, and probably a few other things.


The fundamental lesson here is that unifying all combat maneuvers under a single mechanic was a doomed endeavor that should have been abandoned by the time the APG was being written because all combat maneuvers are very much not alike.


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The problem with your dilemma is the Pathfinder combat system always, ALWAYS favors brute strength over finesse. The system works most of the time, but it's just too broad a system to cover EVERYTHING, and scenario's like this are among those that simply work better with brute strength, even though it logically wouldn't.

In response to this problem - obviously, the GM running the MCU is a fan of homebrewing, and let Black Widow grab the Swap ability from the Prankster Bard archetype, even though she's not a Bard, or a Gnome.


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Also they're not playing in the same mythic tiers. The hulk has a strength of 100 before raging. All of black widows stats combined don't hit that.


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Why in the world did this get moved to conversions? It's about the awkwardness of strength beats dex when it comes to stealing things, not actually building the hulk...

To throw in my 2cp, if more classes had access to something like the Elbow Strikes ability of 4 Wind Fantasy's Daredevil Prestige Class (not sure if Paizo's printed an equivalent anywhere) then strength winning out makes all kinds of sense since you smack someone while you're stealing from them, but otherwise in and out should be easier than manhandling them into submission.


Umbral Reaver wrote:
Isn't Hulk best modeled using alchemist -> master chymist? That's not full BAB.

Barbarian! Just because his skin is green while raging is no big deal. His human bonus skill points all go into Knowledge (Physics).


You're right it does sound strange.....!

Sovereign Court

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If you notice the hulk reaching into your pocket to grab your wallet - are YOU going to try and stop him!?

Pretending that you don't notice is a survival tactic.


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So, this is probably not conducive to the type of dialogue you are intending to stimulate, but it seems like this is one of 1,001 situations in PF where the GM and players talk it over for a minute and then create a common sense ruling that works for the table. If you're hoping to alter the rules from a PFS standpoint, don't hold your breath weapon.

Also, if a colossal dragon is standing next to you, it seems more likely that it would just use its full attack to,you know,
kill you, which would make picking your pocket even easier.


agirlisnotreadytobecomenoone wrote:

So, this is probably not conducive to the type of dialogue you are intending to stimulate, but it seems like this is one of 1,001 situations in PF where the GM and players talk it over for a minute and then create a common sense ruling that works for the table. If you're hoping to alter the rules from a PFS standpoint, don't hold your breath weapon.

Also, if a colossal dragon is standing next to you, it seems more likely that it would just use its full attack to,you know,
kill you, which would make picking your pocket even easier.

Well when I see it being that the player/Gm talk it over, it wouldn't become useful at all for the more skillful character. Rather it would be come less useful for the combat brute.

As in the Dragon wouldn't be able to use it as easily against the pixie (because of common sense) but the pixie couldn't use it on the dragon (because mechanics)

I did find a class however that a trixie character could pick up. Filch Rogue. So far its the only way for a Rogue to be able to use what he's good at (skills) to be able to do what he needed to do. (steal the thing)


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If my ninja used a Vanishing Trick in the middle of a prison break fight I would have a major problem with a GM who didn't let me use my great Stealth and Sleight of Hand bonuses to steal the keys from the unskilled fighter warden and scraper just because he was 'aware' of me.

By the same token I would have the same issue if my ninja was out of ki and instead ran around the corner and used Stealth to hide and wanted to use Sleight of Hand when the warden lumbered up and failed to find me.

Ripping something away from someone and silently picking their pocket are two very different things and I am satisfied with how Pathfinder abstracts those. Bully the Barbarian will take your lunch money from you with brute strength while you look on helplessly while Rascal the Rogue will take it so you won't even know it's gone until you go up to pay the lunch lady :(.

Edit: Plus if Bully and Rascal were working together, Bully would force you into a fight while Rascal wouldn't join in but instead sneak up behind you and take your money. There's ways of using Sleight of Hand even in the middle of a fight.


Honestly, considering feinting already uses bluff instead of CMB despite being (basically) a combat maneuver, and I think feint and steal came out in the same book, I would have absolutely based steal off of sleight of hand, and made the brute force option be based on disarm or something.


if you don't like the new rule then refuse to play the new rule.

Scarab Sages

"Sure, Black Widow can pick pocket..."

"...but Hulk can lift shop, and hold up bank - at same time, if use both hands!!!"


Alchemist makes the most sense for Hulk because of Bruce Banner being a scientist, but I think I'd still go with a Mutagenic Mauler Brawler for Hulk.

Also, I know almost nothing about the new Vigilante class, but isn't there one that has or can get a Mutagen? That would be a good fit too, wouldn't it?


I'm pretty sure literally anyone would be more dangerous if you're caught of guard, doesn't mean sneak attack fits everyone.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Pick pocket is sleight of hand

Ripping something away from someone is steal.

The hulks so good at it because he takes that thing you're wearing on your ches and your chest with it.

There's also agile manuvers for that sort of thing.

That makes sense as Steal is an action which inherently attracts attention and has no possible mechanism of being unnoticed while Sleight of Hand very much is all about taking something unnoticed.

The only problem seems to be the name, "Steal" can leave the impression of STEALth, when another term might be "snatch" or "grab" or "strong arm".


What I'm most baffled about is that the incredible Hulk invested feats to pick pockets...


Rub-Eta wrote:
What I'm most baffled about is that the incredible Hulk invested feats to pick pockets...

Look at his pants. All torn up. Every time he jumps, he loses his wallet. He's got pocket-picking skills so when he lands, he can snatch someone's wallet, then go buy himself a hot dog or ice cream or a shirt or whatnot. He puts the new wallet in his pocket, leaps...and there it goes.


I'd say yeah, 'Steal' as a combat manoeuvre is less 'pilfer stealthily' and more 'GIMME THAT THING! *RRRIP*'. Thus, with the MANOEUVRE, 'Hulk' would win over 'Widow'. Except that Black Widow got there first and used Stealth and Sleight of Hand several times, so that when the enemy wakes up to see the Hulk he's got nothing on him to defend himself while Hulk gets to forego 'steal' and go on to the tried and true favourite SMASH.

And when the next guy stays up all night, then sees Hulk roaring at him and fails to notice Black Widow, he's flanked, and at that point it's less Steal vs Sleight of Hand as it is Diplomacy between Widow and Hulk in whether the victim gets to survive or not.


Darche Schneider wrote:

Seriously.. This is something I can't figure out.

Steal is a combat maneuver, by rules of combat maneuvers you use your STR to perform.

So you get STR + BAB + Size Mod. The Bigger you are, the better your size mod. The Hulk is at least Large, if not Huge. And he's got gallons of str.

Black Widow on other hand, has a fairly decent amount of dex and lots of training. But the moment she gets into combat in pathfinder she suddenly forgets how to perform her pick pocket abilities.

Because by the skills definition, you cannot take objects from people in combat that are aware of your presence. Even though we see it all the flippin time in movies.

I'm pretty sure we even see it in the references I'm talking about right here and now. I know I've seen it in zootopia, deadpool, and a few other movies. I think even Dobby the elf managed to pull this off.

However in Pathfinder, The Incredible Hulk is truly capable of being Incredible at stealing things.

But wait! You might say, The Hulk can't steal things out of combat! Well Now there is a feat for that. Graceful steal. Granted it does replace STR with DEX But the Hulk still gets his size modifiers for being huge, and all his combat abilities. Not to mention he is pretty agile even though he's so big. Maybe Not black Widow agile, but still pretty good.

So basically My rules question in here is.. Did I miss anything? Does Black Widow have go and spend a large number of feats so she can match the Hulk's ability to pick pocket?

In our home game we split the Combat Maneuvers into 'Power' Maneuvers and 'Agile Maneuvers' with a separate CMB for each, one modified by STR, one by DEX, like so:

Agile Maneuvers: Dirty Trick, Disarm, Feint, Reposition*, Steal, Trip

Power Maneuvers: Bull Rush, Drag, Grapple, Overrun, Reposition*, Sunder
* Reposition can use the attacker’s attribute of choice and can be used to position its target in a hazardous square.

Just one of a number of house rules that have significantly enhanced our gaming experience.

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