Why do people like to play bards?

[Dave Justus]

Chicks dig them.

[What's in the box?]

You can sing REALLY poorly during your turn and annoy the crap out of all the other players at the table. All while being in character because you are PRACTICING for the next great ballad.

That and Sound Striker is pretty AWESOME! I didn't miss inspire competence or suggestion (though the party I was in had a beguiler so maybe that was part of it)

[Ched Greyfell]

Pretty much what James said. Bards are so versatile. You're never going to be a hardhitter. But good hope is one of the best buffs in the game. Bardic Performance. Just about every skill is Class. 1/2 level to Knowledge checks. Heals. Getaway. I'd play one in every campaign if I could get away with it.

[Fromper]

What's in the box? wrote:

You can sing REALLY poorly during your turn and annoy the crap out of all the other players at the table. All while being in character because you are PRACTICING for the next great ballad.

I have an archery focused bard in Pathfinder Society who does oratory performances. So he gives inspiring speeches while firing arrows. And his speeches tend to be based on actual historical speeches. ie "Ask not what the Pathfinder Society can do for you, ask what you can do for the Pathfinder Society" or "The only thing we have to fear is these ghouls eating our faces."

My favorite is to start out combat by standing up, yelling "FREEEEDDOOOOMMMMM!!!" and throwing the "Inspire Courage" card from the buff deck down on the table.

[Larkos]

I love Bards because I can heal with power of rock! *Wyld Stallions Guitar Riff*

[What's in the box?]

This may be a side argument but if people are playing for archetypes the bard has A LOT of options (31 and 5 racial) for archetypes.

By contrast a Sorcerer (which the bard has a couple of things in common with) only has 9 (sorry- Wildblooded is a single archetype in my book) and 1 racial.

If this were the only argument though you would see a LOT of fighters because they have a whopping 44! (and 4 racial) archetypes.

This was just something I noticed after looking at the Sound Striker again (it pairs well with additional archetypes also... really worth keeping in mind imo).

[Fromper]

My favorite bard archetype is still the Prankster archetype for gnomes in the Advanced Race Guide. You keep most of the typical bard stuff (bardic knowledge, inspire courage, inspire competence), but instead of fascinate and a couple of other minor things, you gain the ability to debuff enemies by mocking them. This can be fun at the table.

[Atarlost]

RotRL tends to have a lot of the classic monsters that assume every party has a cleric. I think blindness/deafness may not crop up so a druid may serve adequately. Shamans do not get remove disease and I know that one can come up. A samsaran shaman would be fine. Clerics and healing patron witches are the gold standard of condition removal. Oracles lack spells known and a martial heavy party probably doesn't have the cash to spare from enhancing all the junk martials need to enhance to stay relevant to buy enough scrolls to really act as proper insurance, particularly since many of them will have to be high caster level.

If you do wind up going cleric go travel domain. The late game is not near civilization, but the magic item treadmill tends to break without access to a magic mart. RotRL is probably in the AP least tolerant of nonstandard parties. Lots assume a cleric, but I think most leave you with access to markets without requiring teleportation magic.

Or you can agree as a group that the first person to die or be forced to retire because they failed a fortitude save to something a cleric could have fixed has to replace their character with a condition removal specialist of some sort. Maybe you'll get lucky and not need one.

[Neriathale]

We played RotRL (3.5 version) as a 3 person party of shapeshifting druid, knowledge skill focussed bard and Conan clone (barbarian/rogue/something else/mammoth lord).

Playing a bard in the AP was a lot of fun, not least because there are places where having maxed out knowledge skills was relevant to the plot, and going "why yes I can make that DC 40 history roll" made the referee wince.

[Aelryinth]

I would like to point out to the Sublime player that the Sublime Chord was considered one of the top 5 PrC's in 3.5, because you basically gave up nothing, and gained accelerated wizardly spellcasting + class abilities in its place. Just one level in that class set you up for MAGNIFICENT abuse of Theurgy.

So, yeah, bringing that over to Pathfinder is definitely not advisable.

Bards and inquisitors are two of the most enjoyed classes in the current game for multiple reasons, most of which are covered above.

1) You can serve as a main line fighter. Your BAB is decent, and both classes get built in buffs to their offensive power. Keep your AC decent and you're fine.

2) They are both skill monkeys, and very good skill monkeys. The bard gets more skills then any other class, is THE social maven with Cha off its spellcasting, and major bonuses to knowledge skills. Being able to work skills off Perform ranks is just sick.

3) They can heal. It may not seem that important, but in the long run, it's a form of staying power that everyone in the party appreciates. Along with the ability to use CLW wands.

4) they can buff the whole party. This can be done with class abilities (judgments and bardsong) or with excellent spells. Everyone appreciates a buffer.

5) They always have something to do. can they fight? Yes. Can they spellcast? yes. Can they heal? Yes. Can they use all sorts of skills? Yes. Can they bardsong and just stand there as a lookout? Yes.

6) They are a 20 level caster with level 6 spells. Those spells are still useful, and that caster level, throughout the whole game.

===Aelryinth

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

Because I can drop 3 kinds of group buffs on the first round of combat, have tons of skills, and have a sweet unique spell list.

[Yoshu Uhsoy]

Thanks for posting James! :)

[Corvino]

For being solo caster in a group, I'm not not sure I'd choose Bard. Sorry, because they're awesome. But sometimes other needs come first.

In some ways it depends on your stats. A 25+ point-buy (or high rolled) favors Shaman a lot. It lets you abuse the MAD Arcane Enlightenment human/half-human type that gets absurd spell access from Druid, Cleric & Wizard lists. Look at the human FCB and Arcane Enlightenment Hex. Exploit both. With good mental stats a Shaman is a Swiss army knife caster - they have a tool for any problem. Perhaps not the optimal one, but it should more-or-less work.

Lower point buy makes either Witch or Evangelist Cleric more attractive. Witches can mono-stat INT to an extent, while Evangelist Clerics get by regardless as long as they have enough WIS to cast their max spell level. Witches do the entire "Theurge" thing but do miss out on key Arcane Spells. Evangelists get Bard performances and the entire Cleric list. Pick your favored approach and roll with it.

You can be sole "caster" as a Bard but it will be hard. You get minimal condition removal, so you'll have to UMD and have scrolls/wands. Lacking full-caster Battlefield Control might hurt more though.

[Tacticslion]

You get to be (totally not!) Marry Poppins!

[UnArcaneElection]

If you want to keep on with Mary Poppins in this thread, you had better pay her more . . . .

* * * * * * * *

Atarlost wrote:

RotRL tends to have a lot of the classic monsters that assume every party has a cleric. I think blindness/deafness may not crop up so a druid may serve adequately. {. . .}

Rise of the Runelords:

I havn't seen or heard anything to justify that assumption . . . .

[Black Hammer]

Mechanically, bards are awesome because:

They are insane force multipliers. Whatever the rest of the party is doing, you can make them better at it. A guy in the party is good at something? Make him even more amazing at his specialty.

They are versatile. Nobody in the party can do something? Odds are you can, and you probably aren't even bad at it.

Action economy. With lingering song, you can get crazy utility out of your bard song uses for a ridiculously long time, all while still getting your normal actions most of the time.

Spell list isn't insane, but is solid enough on utility that you'll never be bored.

Charisma based classes are the most fun to play, because your primary stat has lots of applications outside combat besides lifting things.

Roleplay-wise, bards are awesome because:

Despite initial appearances, bards offer a lot of options for characterization. Sure, the lute-strumming strumpet or yodeling fool are there. But everything from rhetoric to dance counts as bardic performance, not just music. A Polonius mumbling moral anecdotes, a fiery demagogue preaching hellfire, or an actually competent tactician providing inspiring insights.

My favorite bard was heavily inspired by Ellis from L4D2. Didn't know beans about anything in an academic sense, but Bardic Knowledge was him knowing a story about everything.

[ryric]

For RotR, or really any adventure path, your group should be able to address the following questions regarding healing:

How are we going to heal hp damage?
How are we going to deal with disease and poison?
How are we going to heal temporary ability damage?
How are we going to heal ability drain?
How will we deal with temporary/permanent negative levels?

Obviously, "cleric" answers all those questions. "Suck it up" also answers all those questions. But these are all common things in any AP, so making sure your party can either handle them or, at least, know that they can't, can be very helpful.

For a proposed "bard as only healer" party, you might come up with:
Hp: wands of CLW
disease: Heal checks to boost saves
poison: heal checks and antitoxin to boost saves
ability damage: time, potions and wands of lesser restoration. Need UMD for wand
ability drain: now trickier - UMD a wand of restoration(expensive!), pay NPC clerics?
negative levels: temp let heal on own, permanent pay NPC cleric?

Just making sure you have these bases covered somehow can really save your skin when your party is in a bad position. It also helps you realize that you need to stock up on certain wands and potions to cover these things before they become a crisis in the middle of nowhere.

[GeneMemeScene]

A good chunk of people like tabletop games not for the game aspect but for the acting and roleplaying in an epic world. So they feel resonance with a character that is an over-the-top and passionate actor journeying through an epic world.

[pennywit]

Fromper wrote:

My favorite bard archetype is still the Prankster archetype for gnomes in the Advanced Race Guide. You keep most of the typical bard stuff (bardic knowledge, inspire courage, inspire competence), but instead of fascinate and a couple of other minor things, you gain the ability to debuff enemies by mocking them. This can be fun at the table.

Don't forget:

Quote:

Swap (Ex)

A prankster can steal an object from a creature and replace it with another object of the same size or smaller that the prankster has in his hand. This functions as the steal combat maneuver, but the prankster does not provoke an attack of opportunity, and may use his Sleight of Hand check in place of his combat maneuver check. If the prankster's check exceeds the target's CMD by 10 or more, the target is unaware the swap has been made until it tries to use the swapped object or the end of its next turn (whichever happens first).

Replace the evil wizard's spell component pouch with a pouch of banana peels.

[Charon's Little Helper]

pennywit wrote:

Fromper wrote:

My favorite bard archetype is still the Prankster archetype for gnomes in the Advanced Race Guide. You keep most of the typical bard stuff (bardic knowledge, inspire courage, inspire competence), but instead of fascinate and a couple of other minor things, you gain the ability to debuff enemies by mocking them. This can be fun at the table.

Don't forget:

Quote:

Swap (Ex)

A prankster can steal an object from a creature and replace it with another object of the same size or smaller that the prankster has in his hand. This functions as the steal combat maneuver, but the prankster does not provoke an attack of opportunity, and may use his Sleight of Hand check in place of his combat maneuver check. If the prankster's check exceeds the target's CMD by 10 or more, the target is unaware the swap has been made until it tries to use the swapped object or the end of its next turn (whichever happens first).

Replace the evil wizard's spell component pouch with a pouch of banana peels.

Why are you being so nice with this? Replace the spell component pouch with a pouch of acid or contact poison. Replace an archer's quiver with a wasp nest. And replace a warrior's sword (first round only - and if they haven't drawn it yet) with that banana peel which, when used to attack, will both be useless and provoke AOOs.

[Fromper]

My prankster bard has actually never used the swap ability. He tends to avoid the front line.

I gave him the gnome racial trait that gets two languages per rank of linguistics, and keep that maxed out, on top of his 14 int (great for a skill monkey and bardic knowledge). His goal is to be able to insult anyone, so he needs to make sure he's understood. For instance, he took Terran, just so he can tell any earth elemental he meets, "Hey boulder balls! Yo mama was a cubic zirconium!"

I actually started a thread looking for "in character" insults for Golarion when I first created the PC.

[Grond]

Yoshu Uhsoy wrote:

What would be the best class to have if you only had one spell caster?

Wizard?

Cleric?

Personally? I would go with Evangelist cleric. Almost all the fun of the cleric with inspire courage and other bard goodies tossed in. It is hands down IMO the best buffer in the game and the best way to play a cleric. You just can't go wrong with it.

[Riuken]

Not really a "spellcaster", but you could probably get good mileage out of a bard/pathfinder chronicler with a focus on UMD.

[Tacticslion]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Why are you being so nice with this?

Because it's a Prankster: it's Banana Peels all the way down!

[Fromper]

Tacticslion wrote:

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Why are you being so nice with this?

Because it's a Prankster: it's Banana Peels all the way down!

Or use Beguiling Gift with a potion of Inflict Light Wounds. Not only do they take 1d8+1 damage, but they provoke AoO's when they drink it, so your allies actually do most of the damage. I actually carry some potion bottles with plain water in them for when I don't want to bother with the cost of an Inflict potion, and just want to make them waste their standard action and provoke.

But again, I'm rarely on the front line often enough to use that.

Besides, my prankster is actually good aligned, and in the Silver Crusade. Chaotic good, but still good. I have fun with the whole "playing against type" thing.

[mcv]

I love Bards for their versatility and flexibility. Note that a Bard doesn't have to be a musician. In a Kingmaker campaign, I'm playing a politician who uses Perform: Oratory to give speeches and inspire courage. A Bard can also be a kind of wizard or sorcerer with more focus on knowledge and buffing (in fact, people have argued that Gandalf fits the Bard class better than the Wizard class). Or you can be a kind of rogue. Or you can take any of the crazy archetypes to turn it into something completely different.

Back in the 3.5 days, I liked rogues because I felt you could turn them into anything. They were never very good at it, though. Pathfinder Bards are similar, except they really are good.

[Cevah]

Yoshu Uhsoy wrote:

Snowblind wrote:

Yoshu Uhsoy wrote:

Since I am the only spell caster do you recommend I take an archetype that gives me 9th level spells?

There is no archetype that gives 9th level spells. Not for the bard, or any other class.

What are the other players in your campaign running? Also, what is the campaign itself going to be like? It's hard to give good advice without knowing both of those.

1. Sublime archetype gives 9th level spells

2. We are running rotrl

3. I am not really sure what everyone else will be playing, probably a melee focused martial.

Sublime Chord

/cevah

[Qaianna]

I know the bard in our party uses it as an excuse to ensure that all his spells' verbal components come from various rock songs he knows.

Aside from that ... I've read a few build-a-bard guides and they have me very, very curious. If I were more charismatic of a person in general I might try it sometime. (Assuming that the next campaign my group does decides to have someone else cover the tanky meatshield role that's been mine for three campaigns in a row so far :)

[Cavall]

I like bards because while every class has advice about what to do to make your character the best, bards main role is to make everyone else even better than that. That's in addition to being a great help in pretty much any role you can name.

There is one main class to make a party into a team. That's always been the bard. Always will be.

[Rennaivx]

Cavall wrote:

I like bards because while every class has advice about what to do to make your character the best, bards main role is to make everyone else even better than that. That's in addition to being a great help in pretty much any role you can name.

There is one main class to make a party into a team. That's always been the bard. Always will be.

This.

Also, I like bards for being able to fit just about every character concept I have in one way or another. They can be made into just about anything with their multitude of archetypes.

[Cevah]

Qaianna wrote:

I know the bard in our party uses it as an excuse to ensure that all his spells' verbal components come from various rock songs he knows.

Aside from that ... I've read a few build-a-bard guides and they have me very, very curious. If I were more charismatic of a person in general I might try it sometime. (Assuming that the next campaign my group does decides to have someone else cover the tanky meatshield role that's been mine for three campaigns in a row so far :)

There may not be a tank style bard. So what. When the next campaign is announced/decided, immediately tell everyone you are playing a non-tank bard. Then they have no excuse to assume you will tank. If they choose not to have a tank, then live with it. It can be fun without a tank. It can also be scary. Even both.

When they ask you why or to play a tank, just say you need a break from tanks. No need to go into it any more. Then insist on being a bard. When the time comes, pull out the bard you built with a guide.

/cevah

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

Yoshu Uhsoy wrote:

I need some inspiration for an up coming character.

When I created Zahir as a character, my inspiration was Ahmad ibn Fadlan.

[Qaianna]

Cevah wrote:

Qaianna wrote:

I know the bard in our party uses it as an excuse to ensure that all his spells' verbal components come from various rock songs he knows.

Aside from that ... I've read a few build-a-bard guides and they have me very, very curious. If I were more charismatic of a person in general I might try it sometime. (Assuming that the next campaign my group does decides to have someone else cover the tanky meatshield role that's been mine for three campaigns in a row so far :)

There may not be a tank style bard. So what. When the next campaign is announced/decided, immediately tell everyone you are playing a non-tank bard. Then they have no excuse to assume you will tank. If they choose not to have a tank, then live with it. It can be fun without a tank. It can also be scary. Even both.

When they ask you why or to play a tank, just say you need a break from tanks. No need to go into it any more. Then insist on being a bard. When the time comes, pull out the bard you built with a guide.

/cevah

It'd definitely be a change for them. I think I miscounted all the tanks I've done. We've played Toon, Spycraft, Ironclaw, Mutants and Masterminds, and Pathfinder so far. Out of those, the only one who wasn't outright a tank was my Ironclaw character. She was built because I was hanging out at the time and put together what I thought would be an NPC (at the time I thought I wouldn't be there often enough to be a full PC). So I built..the town smith. And usually in any new game I get I try building a martial type.

Hm. Would be a surprise to spring on them. 'You see the tall imposing half-orc. She grunts something in the all-too-often heard tongue of the evil humanoids, and her eyes flick to the massive axe at her side. Then she stands, gulps down her tankard of coarse ale, and ... (ooh, that's an 18 total for Perform: Oratory..)'

[leo1925]

I have GMed the RotRL (first half original edition converted to PF and second half anniversary edition) and the players got just fine with no cleric, OK they had a healing patron witch and a bard but still...

If you are playing the anniversary edition I think that it is doable with the bard as the only spellcaster if the DM is a bit lenient but it would much better if there was also a Paladin (who is careful in his mercy selection) or an inquisitor (who is careful in his spell selection).

[Troll Bard]

Troll Bard likes to TROLLZ FOR THE LOLS, but to mess wit people's heads in realz lifes is mean and gets u in twouble.

Me alsos not so moozicals, but I kindas likes makings wip da bigs inspeereightional Braveheartz speakes from timez to timez- Perform: oral stories! Alzopes, Troll Bard getz called "Best Bardz EVAR!" when he duz "Empire Couragez" by makin' speakes about u should not want to messes wit us anymorez then u want mess wit a drunks dwarves' beer.

Oh, and if I gets twoos singings, there be plenty songs I get to sings off kees, like "WE'RE GON-NA ROCK DOWNS TOES E-LEC-TRICKS AVE-E-NUES! AND THEN WE TAKES IT HIGHS-ER!" orz "HERE'S A BAAAAD MOONS ARISIN'!"

Youse got that alls? Goods, I'm done, where's mine candied gnome heads? I'm hungry!

[Harleequin]

Bard playing = fun playing!

[Cevah]

Troll Bard wrote:

Troll Bard likes to TROLLZ FOR THE LOLS, but to mess wit people's heads in realz lifes is mean and gets u in twouble.

Me alsos not so moozicals, but I kindas likes makings wip da bigs inspeereightional Braveheartz speakes from timez to timez- Perform: oral stories! Alzopes, Troll Bard getz called "Best Bardz EVAR!" when he duz "Empire Couragez" by makin' speakes about u should not want to messes wit us anymorez then u want mess wit a drunks dwarves' beer.

Oh, and if I gets twoos singings, there be plenty songs I get to sings off kees, like "WE'RE GON-NA ROCK DOWNS TOES E-LEC-TRICKS AVE-E-NUES! AND THEN WE TAKES IT HIGHS-ER!" orz "HERE'S A BAAAAD MOONS ARISIN'!"

Youse got that alls? Goods, I'm done, where's mine candied gnome heads? I'm hungry!

If anyone criticizes you, you can say...

"You no like Empire Couragez? Then Empire Strike Back!" and hit 'em with your instrument.

/cevah

[Charon's Little Helper]

Cevah wrote:

Qaianna wrote:

I know the bard in our party uses it as an excuse to ensure that all his spells' verbal components come from various rock songs he knows.

Aside from that ... I've read a few build-a-bard guides and they have me very, very curious. If I were more charismatic of a person in general I might try it sometime. (Assuming that the next campaign my group does decides to have someone else cover the tanky meatshield role that's been mine for three campaigns in a row so far :)

There may not be a tank style bard.

Bards can be quite tanky. In some ways they do it better than most because they can focus more character resources on defense without being ignored/useless, because their buffing alone contributes enough to pull their weight and make foes want to attack them. Plus - they're awesome at Antagonize, and since their personal damage in mediocre, using an action on it isn't such a waste.

[Darche Schneider]

Bards in Pathfinder are very varied, depending on your archetype.

Archaeologist for example lets you be both the party rogue and the party spell caster. You could even be a good damage dealer with some Luck bonus cheese. (Fates Favored, Lingering Song, Exquisite Accompaniment)

There is a few dervish ones I haven't quite tried out yet. And if you include Skald as a bard, (since it is a hybrid of Bard/Barb) You can also be the spellcaster and primary frountliner. I had a bard centaur that just tore people up.

[Scythia]

How else can you be a member of KISS (Knights In Sarenrae's Service)?

[Ms. Pleiades]

Because sometimes you need to convince the NPCs that your party is totally on legitimate government inspection teams.

[UnArcaneElection]

Scythia wrote:

How else can you be a member of KISS (Knights In Sarenrae's Service)?

I want to steal this so bad . . . .

[Scythia]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Scythia wrote:

How else can you be a member of KISS (Knights In Sarenrae's Service)?

I want to steal this so bad . . . .

Go ahead. :)

Spoiler:

It's a play on an urban legend from the satanic panic days that said that the band name KISS stood for Knights In Satan's Service.

[Sledgehammer]

Bards are fun to play but I've always thought of them as a secondary spell caster to support the team and backup the primary caster/s.

Mainly because they only cast up to 6th level spells but more importantly they're spontaneous casters and thus have a very limited range of spell they can cast compared to a prepared caster who can typically draw from a larger variety of spells.

If your GM is happy to adapt the campaign to suit then go with it. If they like to stick to the campaign then you might have problems if the bard is your primary/only caster.

[Aelryinth]

Scythia wrote:

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Scythia wrote:

How else can you be a member of KISS (Knights In Sarenrae's Service)?

I want to steal this so bad . . . .

Go ahead. :)

** spoiler omitted **

Oh, I thought you were making a quip about the Knights in Stanley's Service. Didn't think you knew about the older stuff.

Heh!

==Aelryinth

[Skeld]

I love Bards.

-Skeld

[Harleequin]

Bards are the archetypal Jack of all Trades - ideal for filling in the gaps!

[UnArcaneElection]

Aelryinth wrote:

Scythia wrote:

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Scythia wrote:

How else can you be a member of KISS (Knights In Sarenrae's Service)?

I want to steal this so bad . . . .

Go ahead. :)

Spoiler:

It's a play on an urban legend from the satanic panic days that said that the band name KISS stood for Knights In Satan's Service.

Oh, I thought you were making a quip about the Knights in Stanley's Service. Didn't think you knew about the older stuff.

Heh!

That does it! Now I have to find a suitable Evil Deity or quasi-divine Outsider whose name starts with 'S' . . . How Evil is Stanley? :-)

[Aelryinth]

Ye know not of Stanley the Tool?!? Heaven Forbid!

Um. He's mostly Chaotic Stupid. But Knights in Stupid's Service doesn't work out too well.

http://www.erfworld.com/erf_stream/view

start from the beginning, of course!

==Aelryinth

[Aelryinth]

Oh, and it should be noted...Stanley the Tool, while ostensibly a warlord, gets his power by Rocking Out and playing an Artifact level guitar. He's functionally a bard.

==Aelryinth