[FAQ REQUEST] Infernal Healing Pricing


Rules Questions

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Shadow Lodge

Rysky wrote:
Well cleric's can't cast opposed alignment spells themselves so they would have to be asking for someone else, and that's where uncertainty comes into play.

And you don't think that they, too, as guardians of their flock, mouthpieces of their faith, and hands of the deity would think to ever study this?

:P

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
DM Beckett wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Well cleric's can't cast opposed alignment spells themselves so they would have to be asking for someone else, and that's where uncertainty comes into play.

And you don't think that they, too, as guardians of their flock, mouthpieces of their faith, and hands of the deity would think to ever study this?

:P

Study? Yes.

Know the exact formula for everyone ever? No.


Rysky wrote:
silverrey wrote:
I can see Asmodeus and the Archdevils doing so, but Nethys, Pharasma, and the Ushers I can't see having a reason to. One is the definition of magically neutral and the others are judges with no claim to the soul one way or the other. Considering the later would be the ones to make the final call on you they would even be able to tell you as an individual howe it will work in your case.

Well Nethys is b@#!$#+ f~!*ing crazy so that should speak for itself.

As for Pharasma, hmm. Would she answer correctly? Would she answer at all? I don't think she would based on her observance of Fate, but that's just my interpretation of her.

It would be similar to asking a judge about what the law regarding something is. If you break the law through ignorance you still broke the law but a lawyer might be able to lessen your sentence if it is something obscure. If you break the law after being told what will happen then you have chosen to accept the ruling. What you do with the knowledge is what you will be judge on not that you requested the knowledge.

For example: You can't just claim a car that was left in your yard as yours because they left it overnight, That would be considered stealing the car, but if it has been left for a certain amount of time (different in each area) and you made an attempt to contact the owner then the car is legally yours free and clear. Asking what that time frame is and what paperwork you need to fill out would be something any local judge (or DMV) would be able to answer easily and have no reason not to answer.


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Are we arguing that unholy water isn't evil aligned? It's unholy.

The semantics people go to in this game.

How about find me one example were unholy anything else isn't evil aligned? Or holy isn't good aligned? The evidence (and common sense) tells us the burden of proof is to prove that some how in some way unlock water is somehow different from every other unholy thing in the game.

Scarab Sages

Cavall wrote:

Are we arguing that unholy water isn't evil aligned? It's unholy.

The semantics people go to in this game.

How about find me one example were unholy anything else isn't evil aligned? Or holy isn't good aligned? The evidence (and common sense) tells us the burden of proof is to prove that some how in some way unlock water is somehow different from every other unholy thing in the game.

Without this line, "This power makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction." the Holy weapon enchantment wouldn't make the weapon good aligned. Anything that is going to be good aligned needs a similar line to make it so. The title of a thing, the fluff of a thing and the mechanics of a thing can be different than you expect, this happens often. The title is holy water, but it isn't holy. It doesn't do holy damage nor does it do good damage nor is it good aligned. It is positive energy though, which is neutral.

The opposite is true of unholy water, not evil aligned or evil damage, just negative energy.

If you think it makes more sense for unholy water to be evil aligned... then go ahead and add the rule that says it is for your home tables. But it is not a rule as things stand. This isn't about semantics. It is about mechanics. And unholy water does not have the "evil-aligned" mechanic attached to it.


Horror Adventures rules should only be considered in their context as rules related to more horror related adventures.

That now often recited passage in the book was written for scenarios as another layer of corruption which is major theme of the book, not something that should be gamified for general play. It is slow corruption by forbidden spells that slowly twist the casters mind. You know, horror tropes.

Consider Phylactery of Faithfulness also.

Liberty's Edge

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Don't holy/unholy water damage outsiders of opposed alignments to the spell used to make them?

That's another pretty good argument for them being inherently aligned.
Edit: Ah, mentioned last page.

Well, I'm just glad I generally play home games and don't have to deal with the lunacy of such items 'not explicitly' stated as having any alignment to them, especially given their ritual and combat purpose.


Wait, was this about the use of these waters or their existence?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Envall wrote:
Wait, was this about the use of these waters or their existence?

their use at first, then their existence.


Cavall wrote:

Are we arguing that unholy water isn't evil aligned? It's unholy.

The semantics people go to in this game.

How about find me one example were unholy anything else isn't evil aligned? Or holy isn't good aligned? The evidence (and common sense) tells us the burden of proof is to prove that some how in some way unlock water is somehow different from every other unholy thing in the game.

Plenty of people argue that inflict light wounds is "obviously" evil, even though its not.

You need more than that to demonstrate something is actually inherently evil.


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The way I currently see holy/unholy water: Positive/negaitve energy is used as a carrier to transfer something unrelated to water and silver into it. The primary damage against outsiders is the main effect of the concoction. Holy water damages undead but unholy water does not damage living creatures because positive energy is more damaging and unstable than Negative. (proof: put an undead on the Negative plane and an animal on the positive plane and see which lasts longer).

This means that, as it stands, unholy water is infused with something inherently damaging to good outsiders. However, using the (more stable) negative energy carrier in holy water may be able to increase Celestial Healing's effectiveness to match its fiendish counterpart.

Shadow Lodge

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Holy/Unholy Water are oddities, (and not in the sense of lets blame 3.5). Looking through the Alchemy Manual, it seems (unless I missed it), that neither are considered "alchemical items", and can not be crafted, and thus the only way to create them is by the Cleric Spell Bless or Curse Water, both of which are Aligned spells.

However, Holy Water, (and Unholy Water which seems to just use Holy Water as the base and is not described itself), is not actually an Aligned item. Or even a magical item. It does contain a lot of text that is highly suggestive that it is, but never specifies so, which is odd if that was the intent, because every other case I can think of, this is explicitly mentioned for the spell, item, feat, ability, etc. . .

So, as far as I can tell, Holy Water is not a [Good] Items, though Bless Water is a [Good] Spell. And similarly, Unholy Water is not an [Evil] Item, though Curse Water is an [Evil] Spell. Being that it seems these are the only ways to create the two items, (even Craft Alchemy doesn't mention <Un>Holy Water as an option), it does seem that this was intentional. Both Holy and Unholy Water are not included in either the Alchemy Manual or Adventure's Armory (Power Spell Components), but neither are also listed as Magical Items.

So, as far as I can tell, they are not either Aligned or Magical in nature, (outside of being created through a spell), and so would not ping for Detect Evil or Good, or even Detect Magic, which seems very intentional.

Part of this is that Paizo really mucked up Positive and Negative Energy, in the sense of making it very inconsistent in how it works, (Channel Energy either heals or harms based on both Creature Type and what application the user is intending, Align Channeling potentially uses Positive Energy to hurt Good Outsiders and heal Evil Outsiders if they want, etc. . .)

Positive Energy itself, and similarly with Negative Energy is NOT Good or Evil. Both are simply unaligned "spiritual" energies that are an intrinsic part of the universe and life. It is not the same thing as Sacred/Profane, Light/Darkness, Holy/Unholy, Divine, or even Neutral (with a capital "N") any more than "Fire" or "Bludgeoning" is. It just happens that generally speaking, Good aligned casters/beasties/options tend to use Positive Energy, and tend to use them for Good, while Evil ones tend to utilize Negative Energy more, and generally for at least NOT Good uses.


Really, they should just have redefined by a FAQ.
Make them magic items, consumable ones, like elixirs since they act like it.

Shadow Lodge

Why would they be redefined? They do not really act like Magic Items or Consumables, but really act in most ways exactly like Alchemical Items. Single use, mundane items that can be thrown, used as splash weapons, and have a specific effect, acting like Acid against Undead and Evil Outsiders (or Good Outsiders).


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Making the use of holy waters not aligned makes sense in the way that they can function as nothing but very fancy bugspray.

Shadow Lodge

Ok?

Scarab Sages

DM Beckett wrote:
Ok?

Ok!


Lorewalker wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Ok?
Ok!

No.


This debate seems to have veered off into a tangent. I just made this post to cover the questions about holy and unholy water.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tx5u?Holy-Water-what-is-it-exactly

Summary of relevant question:

"Creating holy water is a Good spell, and can be construed as a good act. Is holy water itself inherently Good, and can using it be construed as a Good act, even if used against a good-aligned undead, such as a CG ghost?"

Community & Digital Content Director

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Removed a series of heated posts—if you find yourself seeing red or at an impasse with another poster to the point of lashing out, take the time to step away from the keyboard and come back later. If the issue is irreconcilable, it's likely time to the hide the thread and excuse yourself from the discussion. Flagging and moving on is perfectly OK.

Additionally, it appears this discussion has shifted significantly form the original question, and I'll be locking it for now.

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