ossian666's page

Honestly I'd just tell him straight up how it is.

"Your attitude and behavior has been unacceptable that reflects badly on <insert name of friend> that invited you to play with us. I liken your behavior to that of a tantrum throwing child and is disrupting the game and the rest of our relaxation time. I am going to ask you to control your outbursts and actions at this time, and if the problem persists I will find your home and kick your family pet to death."

Its an NPC. So it doesn't have to worry about anything since I assume he's GM. I just don't know if it is being added to the party or its an enemy.

Also not sure how this would be considered evil?

I'd take Precise and Point Blank first level. Get those out of the way. Then get Rapid Reload at 3 and Rapid Shot at 4. 2WF at 5 and Clustered Shots at 6. Those are the most important feats to your build IMO.

Because reloading firearms as fast as possible is a bigger damage increase than deadly aim is.

Ooooph you won't find many people telling you to do either of those things.

I hate the rules that a few of you got wrong and then posted in a thread about hating.

Please go re-read rules before you rant about hating them.

A good Gunslinger shouldn't be squishy.

Lets do math!

Lets base this on level 8 with 6 Gunslinger and 2 Alchemist (since this is what I made recently for a friend to dual wield pistols).

I started the player out with a 16 Dex. Add 4 for being Goblin. Add 2 for Belt of Incredible Dexterity. Add another 2 for level ups at 4 and 8. So his Dex is sitting at 24. Naked and with no class (kind of have to be if you are naked...BAZINGA!) his AC is 17. Not bad.

At level 6 of Gunslinger you have +2 Dodge AC because of Nimble.

A smart Gunslinger is probably just wearing +1 Leather Armor (with the Dex getting higher its tough to stay safe).

At this level its not uncommon to have a Ring of Protection +2, an Amulet of Natural Armor +1, and since he has 2 levels in Alchemist a handy Extract of Shield granting a +4 Shield Bonus.

Doing some math here we have a level 8 Pistolero with an AC of 30.

For a ranged class that will dish out MASSIVE amounts of damage (thanks to Clustered Shots) from 20 ft. away its astonishing that he can pull a 30 AC while wearing only Leather Armor. Considering that most wisdom on the forums says your AC should be 20+your level I think the Gunslinger is OK. His flat footed will suck...but even his touch AC (Gunslinger style shoot out fun) will be in the 20s.

I'd say your "to hit" is going to be more important than DPR. I'd rather consistantly hit than miss, but you also have to remember that around level 3-4 enemies start to have about 5/DR, levels 7-8 its gonna bump to be around 10/DR, and then around level 11-12 its gonna jump again to 15/DR. Make sure you have enough to at least be chipping away past that and you should be contributing.

They are one of the best debuffers in this system.

If they fly I suggest tossing out a few Air Elemental Gems. Take advantage of the Large Elementals to just be pains in the butt using Whirlwind all over the place. Its not much but it forces saves and the dice gods know that the more you roll the more likely you will fail and be stuck in a Whirlwind wasting a turn.

You people are thinking too Globally...you gotta think more LOCALLY!

Get 2 Unseen Servants. Command them to move next to Tarrasque. Command them to put Portable Hole into Bag of Holding. Taadaa...win. Or just go out like a champ and do it yourself you big baby.

and the creature just uses deeper darkness again.

the true best solution to this is an Ioun stone with a continual flame spell cast upon it heightened to 4th level.

a dull grey ioun stone costs 25 gold, 50 for the material components, and 280 for a 4th level version of heightened continual flame.

Or just buy an ioun torch for 75g...

Bastard sword? If you were trying to make a point of some kind, you could do better than picking one of the worst swords in the game. I was thinking more like the nodachi, katana,urumi, Elven curve blade, falcata (especially the falcata), or the temple sword (if you're a monk).

A bite attack is probably the most valuable natural attack in the game as it is considered a primary attack alone, and can be used in conjunction with hand-held weapons, essentially giving you a free attack to your attack routine. And a tengu doesn't have to expend resources get it.

I wouldn't put the Falcata at being more powerful than the Dwarven Waraxe. Axe is 1 more average damage all the time for a small loss in threat range. And you wouldn't have to play a crumby fighte race.

Getting a bite for a trait is hardly an expenditure of resources...especially when using in part of an attack action is a -5 to hit.

Those choices are DEFINITELY not swaying me to play a Tengu. If anything its made me realize how terrible the race is at martial classes.

Resistance 5 does nearly shut down most energy stack-on weapon enhancements though.

But how often as a PLAYER do you encounter this? Enough that its something a character would legitimately want to add them if it cost a feat? Probably not.

TarkXT wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Aren't tengus superior to dwarves?

No.

Prove it.

Tengus are proficient with every sword in the game and have natural attacks, thus making great fighter types. Their ability scores and skill bonuses make them terrific rogues and divine spellcasters.

What do dwarves get that's better? They're tough and have darkvision. That's about it. The rest of their abilities are either highly situational, or the tengu has it better (such as weapon familiarity versus swordtrained). Dwarves are also painfully slow when compared to tengus.

Thank goodness I get sword proficiency...don't have enough choices of better weapons with my Martial Proficiency as a fighter...and before you say "but but Bastard Sword" I want to remind you of the Dwarven Waraxe you get as a Martial for being a Dwarf.

And what would I ever do without a bite attack? Oh take the Trait Adopted and pick up the Orc Race Trait Tusked.

Tengu for flavor. Dwarf for skull bashing.

Keep it in a glove full of lotion..... For the ladies.

Or men...no need to be sexist here.

I can't believe you are arguing the very definitions of the words Temporary and Permanent...

Wow, 196 posts and I see only one actual monk build. I'm right and your wrong posts don't prove anything. Show me builds that not only compare to hit and damage but out of combat skills and combat manuevers and there affect on the GAME. If you take damage from traps, ambushes you didn't see or because you couldn't sneak past a group of mooks are you really better.

Jeez someone ate their Jerky-O's this morning. Should have switched to Shredded Literacy.

...you do realize that you have roughly 55 minutes to fill those 10 reserved posts before they get locked and you will just look funny for reserving them, right?

Andru Watkins wrote:

So just ask the Paizo community on rules questions? I can do that.

Yup. You'll have responses in the hundreds.

Just don't ask how to control power gamers...or about potted plants. =b

Basically this will more than likely turn into a DPR race...it will be who can blow whom up first. Have fun and when one of them dies it will click that they need a martial character.

Quote:

Abusing that poor plant and killing it intentionally IMO is not reverent.

And summoning animals to fight for him and get slaughtered is? Also the plant isn't killed. It shrinks back to normal after the spell is over. Taking a Druids powers for something like that is a jerk move and punishing a player for using his head.

Reread how summons work you have it wrong...when reduced to zero they simply return to their plane of existance...nothing says they die forever.

And throwing it isn't bad...INTENTIONALLY LIGHTING IT ON FIRE IS! Its premeditated plant murder!

The Area part id what the spell creates, not what it needs to work.

Again you can only throw the plant 10 ft and the area is 40 ft radius, so therefore you just trapped yourself and all of your travelling companions along with the enemy. Also, if he chooses to them burn a HUGE area of plants using Alchemist's Fire how is this NOT irreverent?

ossian666 wrote:

...After reading the spell Entangle I have to say that the spell doesn't work that way and is partially DM enabling.

Well, you'd be incorrect. It does work like that.

There are a lot of things that don't, like your other examples. But the potted plant entangle totally works. This is not DM enabling, for once it is actually people doing it right, despite the fact the player has found a creative way around the limitations of the spell.

Link to Entangle

The spell itself doesn't say the plant grows in any way...it simply says plants in that area entangle the enemy. So unless this guy is carrying around a pretty decent sized tree...not technically going to work.

And if you are reading it as it needs to just be a plant to make 40 ft of plants to spring up and entangle everyone well then you hit the issue of the plant itself only being able to be thrown 10 ft., so every creature including your party and yourself would be stuck inside the area of effect.

I am all up in your campaign hiding in plain sight!

Alright, I asked and received what I needed yesterday to make my dream of a Monk Barbarian come true. Now its time to help me build it.

My concept is to use a Devil Spawn Tiefling for +2 Con, +2 Wis, and -2 Cha. I would be taking the alternate racial traits of Scaled and Tail. Take 5 levels of Martial Artist Archtype for Monk and then go into Barbarian for what looks like 5 levels to get Uncanny Dodge (and because Monk's Robe will offset this loss in AC and Unarmed Strike).

My problem come in with stats, feats and archtypes. I can't decide if it would benefit me to pick a Barbarian archtype or not, and whether I can pick up Master of Many Styles along with Martial Artist. Martial Artist doesn't require me to be Lawful, but Master of Many Styles doesn't explicitly list a Lawful requirement. If I can go with Master of Many Styles then I'd probably benefit from bumping Dex to atleast 15 and picking up TWF since I lose Flurry.

Right now here is where I am stuck.

Str-14
Dex-14
Con-14+2=16
Int-10
Wis-14+2=16
Cha-8-2=6

If I can do Many Styles I'd probably start with Dragon Style and for my 1st level feat take Crane Style. If I can't do Many Styles I'd probably go Crane Style for 1st level and Deflect Arrows for bonus feat.

Then I'd like to kind of get advice on where to go from here...

Eh its gotta be Paizo content.

Sense Motive: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (15) + 6 = 21

There is a catch all phrase as part of Permanency and Wish...GM approval. If the GM is cool with it there shouldn't be a problem with making it happen. BUT, be careful man...making your bird that big will mean he is going to be excluded from anything involving a city, tunnel, dense forest, dungeon, etc. due to space limitations...

RISE FROM THE DEAD MY NECRO THREAD! LET US BREATHE NEW LIFE INTO THIS AGE OLD QUESTION!

maxx then why is it the consensus of most here that an optimized roleplay character is "worse" not "better" than a combat optimized character?

Its not. Your reading comprehension fails you on this. We are just simply saying that taking things that are more "roleplaying" than "rollplaying" will simply not benefit you as frequently as taking something that is more combat oriented. Truth is when you play this game you will spend more time and make more rolls having to do with combat than almost anything else (short of like knowledges and perception, and even those are largely combat based). Your player can be as flavorful as Jambalaya, but if you aren't going to use those flavor choices but once or twice every few sessions then you probably should have chosen something that would come into play more frequently. Its like making the choice on whether you should buy a nice new frying pan so you can make pancakes and bacon and eggs and grilled cheese and other things, or you should buy a waffle maker. That pan will be more useful all around than the wafflemaker and therefore be a better use of your resources. There will be one time you want waffles and having that waffle maker will be awesome and delicious...but for the most part not the greatest investment.

Yes Pharasma is anti-undead, what creates undead? what fuels this guy's temporary HP. in the DM's mind that priest would not like being around a half vampire, be distrustful, etc.

twisting the rules, I think it is rules legal, in the same way that making a beastmorph/dragon style totally optimized monk is legal. Its using the letter of the rules, rather than the spirit in which they were written. he is trying to get every ability he can to gain the maximum amout of healing and gaining temp hp from bite attacks etc, regardless of how unliely this would be (did the ork rape the 1/2 vampire or vamp rape the ork? and where did mr.miagui wander into the badlands to decide it would be a great idea to teach this roaring thing hungry ghost monk technique?) regardless of the amount of grief it will cause to the other players and the DM in the game. good enough? its not breaking rules its twisting and squeezing for every last drop of effect.

DM told us he did not want us to read the players guide to the campaign. said it still had spoilers he didnt want us to know about.

At this point I am going to post once more then remove myself from this thread.

Nothing in that character concept grants that player temporary hit points...he gets HP back from drinking the blood of already dead creatures, and there are some aspects of stealing ki that happens or hit points much later one. This is a clear misunderstanding that you are propogating here and in your group. Stop spreading misinformation for the sake of putting down a player you clearly dislike.

I don't see where he is squeezing any drops of power out of anything. This character is going to be on the weak side unless your GM allows him to roll stats.

What heritage feat are you talking about? It doesn't grant a bite attack. The player needs to choose whether he is a Dhampir or a Half-orc. You can NOT be both. There may be some misunderstanding there, but the GM, not you, needs to tell the player what he is reading is wrong and he needs to pick ONE race. As a matter of fact he really should just outlaw the ARG since he can't even get the basic core rules down.

Your GM is a fool. You read the player's guide because it gives you some back story into the area that you have apparently been living in your entire life leading up to this point! Jeez what a cluster eff of badness...it tells you in there what classes and races are suggested and tells you what are and are not good decisions and who the leaders are and what happened recently and all kinds of pertinent information that will help the player's make good characters that fit into the story. Its like everyone playing characters with amnesia without that player's guide. There aren't any spoilers in it and I advise you to download it, read it, then go to your GM and tell him everything he knows about Pathfinder is wrong and lay down a shun of seismic proportion until he can prove to you guys he deserves the mantel of GM.

/endrant

could always go half elf for multiple favored classes or take eclectic as a human...unless you cannot favored class a prestige class.

Though as a DM i would house rule that away

You can't favored class a prestige class.

@baalbamoth - in the long run, the gaming group you describe, and especially the GM, will be better off without that player. It's clear he doesn't "get it", and perhaps after a few years of experience he might mature enough to listen to the GM and be more considerate of the group playstyle.

For many reasons it's good to have these discussions up front to see if there are any "red flags" that pop up when getting to know players. This isn't about judging anyone--it's about getting the right players at the table for the type of game the GM wishes to run. Players who have enough self-awareness to know they're a powergamer and have those preferences could be self-regulating and find another group to play in where they will be happier.

Wait wait...you are calling this guy a powergamer? HOW? Did you read his character concept? A Hungry Ghost Monk with a multiclass into a Sanguin Bloodline Sorcerer! That is the opposite of powergaming...as a matter of fact his character design sounds more like power roleplaying than powergaming.

At this point its not even about being a more powerful character its just the GM being a terrible GM. He may as well come out and say, "Here is the story I want to read you guys so I need you to make these characters to play."

The easiest solution is to waste the guy that stepped in front of you like a fool.

Fixed.

Again...not powergaming.

Granted it is an interesting concept and the character will be pretty MAD, but the game is about everyone having fun. Its really not YOUR job to tell someone they are having fun wrong.

He will have to write himself a very good back story, and there will be A LOT of roleplaying for this character. Personally fitting in and gliding through the story sounds incredibly boring to me...I'd be more upset with the GM making you change your character concept.

I can't believe I am saying this again, BUT APs are a GUIDELINE...GUIDELINE...GUIDELINE! Just because the players want to go a different route or whatever doesn't mean you punish them. YOUR GM NEEDS TO LEARN TO ADAPT! I am running Council of Thieves and the very first chapter there is a warning that says "if the PCs decide NOT to follow Janiven you will have to make changes" and then it gives some suggestions. If my players decided to go a different route at one of the dozens of crosroads in the books then I'd be in unwritten territory and have to adapt and evolve the story myself. Your GM needs to stop being lazy and start learning to adapt. If he has enough time to scheme and think of creative ways to kill players and make players turn on each other then he has enough time to figure out creative solutions.

Off the top of my head I can think of 2 creative solutions to this problem:
1. Make this guy your character's body guard.
2. Make this guy in debt to your character for saving his life and make the character take the alternate racial trait Chain Fighter.

See how much better life is when you aren't trying to be a huge d-bag to the players in your group?

Well I haven't quite seen what you expect out of the builds either...you have to give us a direction. If you try and make a rounded out character in any class you are going to mediocre across the board. If you want to be melee we can make that happen. If you want to be ranged we can make that happen. If you want to be the face we can make that happen. If you want to be magical we can make that happen. See what I am getting at? Give us a direction. Say, "I want to see a DPR build that focuses on melee" or "I want to see a battlefield control Alchemist", so we have some kind of a direction here.

Alot

Alot no play D&D...

I see your argument and raise you a misfire chance that no other class has.

(Keep in mind there are no critical failures per RAW in Pathfinder)

OOOOOPH GROD! GROD! We need a translation from Grod!

Yea that sums it up, but the GM kinda added fuel to the fire when he allowed such ridiculous things in his game...Advanced Races, Dice Rolls, Poor Decisions on how to handle melee powerhouses, etc.

Orthos wrote:

Aranna wrote:

I am curious Baal... Have you gone to your GM with some of the good advice we offered? If so how did he respond?

He did this at one point much earlier in the thread, then reported that the GM's response was "Don't listen to the people on the forums, they're all powergamers".

Because obviously, a DM or a player can't learn from what people have to say on what to do, what not to do, and how you may counter anything with a mature answer so everyone in the game has fun and doesn't feel gimped.

Sheesh, people on the Internet are so playing it wrong.

Talk to this DM again. Say him you got awesome advice on GMing on Internet, and quickly state that the first one is "no f~@$in' custom magic items".
After all, everyone knows sticking to core magic items (instead of, you know, abusing the system) is top class powergaming advice. If he keeps demeaning potential advice as stinky suggestions from dirty powergamers, do yourself a favor and start GMing the game. People on these boards will be happy to help for any issue you have with the game.

Whoa Whoa that is NOT the first advice we have...Don't use rolled stats, don't use advanced races and learn the rules is the advice we gave first!

Think I added cleave and improved cleave when I leveled, armor is +1 full plate, +1 mith sheild of bashing, +1 keen guisame, got a "custom" magic item "thorm body" CL3 as spell at will, (think I paid about 4k for it), human Kellid, stats rolled, Gorim Diety. If there are errors this was the first PF character I ever made, without direction and without reading a book, if there are errors here I didnt catch em and neither did the DM (or he didnt care)

nothing in this was fabricated, or lied about, and do you have a point with this or are you still just trying to make the same point

that being "the guy is new to PF and does not know what he is talking about and he's stupid so there! neener neener neener!"

Just because I am new and inexpirenced with PF does not mean that the arguements do not hold water.

You are right but it fits nicely into my point that due to your inexperience (and based on previous statements made your GM as well) you can not and should not make any blanket statements in regards to "powergaming" and the fairness of your adventuring compatriots. I can tell just by looking that your character is just wrong...if the GM allows it so be it, but I also don't see anything that gives you RP value and not combat value.

Keep in mind you also can't take 2 feats per level EVER with any class so not sure how you did that, and I am not even sure you can take a pre-req at the same time as taking another feat...I think you need to take a pre-req the level before you take that higher level feat.

And how do you have 12 feats?

What weapons are you using?

What armor are you wearing?

What magic items do you have?

What is your race?

How did you get those stats?

What is your diety?

Can't have Imp Trip without Combat Expertise which you don't meet pre-reqs for...

So anything else that I am sure you lied and fabricated for the sake of this argument I'd expect you to fix before you post up your info again.

lol here's your proof b

Re: crafting, ok here was the thread I was talking about...

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz637e?So-a-5-weapon-for-2667-GP

I wasnt wrong at all about it, sure its only getting a 50k item for around 3k, sure a 4th level wizard would need a lot of starting capitol to create wish items, but the rules are still broken when it comes to crafting, of particular interest was this part from diego... (mist here's where the money comes from as well...)

A use activate whetstone of greater magic weapon would cost 120.000 gp, have a DC of 25, +5 for overcasting: DC 30.
A "common" wizard with 18 stating intelligence and skill focus in spellcraft would be capable to make one at level 8 with ease (base int raised to 20, +2 int circlet = +6 for intelligence, +3 for the feat, +3 as it is a class skill, 8 rank in the skill = +20 skill bonus).
So your 4 party members chip in 15.000 gp each at level 8 and get to have all their weapons enchanted to +5 constantly, leaving the space for plenty of interesting enchantment on their weapons.
The same wizard would have to wait for another 12 levels before casting the same spell by hand.
And note that he is not really trying to push it. With the right trait/feat he could do the same thing at a way lower level.

broken... simply... broken.

Porphy- heh our group avoided that stuff not because players didnt try to bring it in, but because our DM refused to let anything into the game he could imagine would break it. we'd have to wait months to use a new class book. again, I dont mind the iorn hand as long as it directly serves a purpose. further, because those game breaking mechanics didnt really get into the game till after 12-13th level, and the DM could completely control what spells you had access to, that never entered into our games either. also our world was extremely low magic, an 8th level character say would have two or three +2 class items, maybe one misc item, and some potions. and thats it, the idea of buying or having items created that you...

Yep if you have a bad GM and a table full of terribad players...

Table: Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.

Link to quote

(See how sources are linked...do more of this)

The only thing broken about your post is the GMs inability to know the system and the player's ability to capitalize on it. THIS is an good example of "powergaming". The players taking advantage of a known loophole in the system due to the GM being ill equipped to deal with it. See how its not creative...its down right WRONG and abused. You are talking about CUSTOM CREATED MAGIC ITEMS...this isn't something printed so it has NOT been approved by Paizo for use in Pathfinder and therefore can not be used as a source of balancing issues.

Oss- The most Out of Character thing a soldier could do is waste precious training time on something that will not help him survive.

you read that right? so according to that, if you have any skills that flesh out your character, any skill which conforms to a backstory, its not "helping you survive" and therefore not worthwile for a character to have.

and this guy is a RP-er as well as a min/max-er

its just that he does nothing to create characters that have any potential of RP-ing anything that cant be broken down or killed.

flesh, this is directly proving my point that minmaxing IS powergaming
and that was also sorta the point about the slave/fundraser, I see a crapload of postings about how to max out a magus, but I dont see anything about using that kind of system knowledge to make a character that isnt 80% combat effective (they are all 90-100s)

Oss- and your last post backs that up, when was the last time you created a character where 20% of your feats, and 20% of your stat bonuses had nothing to do with combat effectivness?

wow thanks guys... I think you totally gave me a way to stop powergamers... the 20% rule!

Profession: Sailing does help me survive as a fighter. I can use this for tying knots, not getting lost, fishing, weather, geography, repair and maintenance of weapons that got wet, etc. My fighter is useless if he is starving, not able to climb with the rest of the group, lost, incapable of preparing for bad weather, his weapons aren't useful due to damage from not caring for them, etc. Taking things like Craft: Weapons is a good choice but maybe not for the Wizard. My fighter probably doesn't want to take Profession: Librarian even though I can think of a few scenarios where that just may help him survive an encounter.

This goes back to the discussion earlier where we said that skills and stats can have many different uses and strengths. And back to the point of you GM putting too much focus on combat...real games include things like those stated above.

so... do you think Ingo had any crafting skills? his father was a sword maker, maybe any CHA based skills after all sword makers have to sell swords? see thats just it, you probably wouldent have put any of those skills in there, you even forgot about that in your description of ingo, a nearly totally onesided character can still have non-combat RP skills and feats. and yes, you can have a character who's goal is to do all those things, but very rarely does somebody start out as take over the world guy... hitler was an artist...

by the way your on about 10 fails... how many do YOU get?

And how many of us build characters without Survival? Acrobatics? Knowledges? Crafting? I guarantee on my next paycheck that every single person in this thread whether they are a barbarian or a bard puts skill ranks in things that may not be directly related to "class norms". My fighter has ranks in Profession: Sailing because I preferred to roll that instead of Survival for things like tying knots and using the stars for directions. but my backstory says my father was a farmer...didn't take that profession because of the way I wanted to go instead.

High int fighters can be fun, with a half decent CHA for the few class skills that use it.

Also gives you Combat Expertise, which opens up a lot of fun feats.

Since its mentioned this goes back to the initial reason for this thread. Baal you made a trip fighter, so obviously you took Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. Imagine your goal is to trip the enemy and the "powergamer" just runs up and bashes them in the face. Thats how a team works!

Charisma is definitely important. Paladin, Sorceror, Summoner, Oracle, Bard, Inquisitor, Rogue, Gunslinger, Cleric, Cavalier, etc. use Charisma for LARGE portions of their classes. Dumping Charisma would hurt all of those classes in one way or another and limit their capabilities. Count em. Thats a list in the double digits. Have you played anything other than a fighter?

Orthos I am listening I just do not agree...

Flesh- I think your placing too much import on looks, I read the thing about the elephant man, so... the lowest stat you can have is a 5 CHA, and the elephant man had a 5 CHA solely because of looks...

so your saying if your character has a wonderful personality but a 5 CHA uglyness in the game, everyone will run from you, children will scream in terror, gangs of drunk people will attack you in the streets for no reason... you cant walk down a street for 5 seconds without something like this happening...

honestly I dont see how a character like this would even be playable, I certanly wouldent allow it, it would disrupt the hell out of the game.

let me ask, with all your playing of 5 CHA ugly characters... have you ever had a DM actually RP THIS level of terror and fear from appearance to your "nice but extremely ugly" characters?

I doubt it. probably because you say "well... he has bad manners too!" (facepalm)

my point is this... if you are recieving a +6 bonus for having a high strength... and you could have only gotten that by having a -6 neg on charasma... how much does your str effect the game and how much does your CHA effect the game?

they should both be equal, that +6 Str will help you win and survive, that -6 CHA should cause you to fail and nearly get killed.

how often does your STR help you nearly survive? 2-3 times a game? how often does your CHA nearly get you killed? once every 10 games?

scint- ok make it a person in a wheel chair and he says "hey wheels, wanna buy this car" or a person person with dwarfism "hey tiny tim, wanna buy this car?" any way you wanna put it, somebody is "discriminating" and coming out as charming funny etc.

No...because even though my 22 strenght makes me have a 4 charisma my AVERAGE (10) intelligence tells me that I should let the bard of the group do the talking so I don't anger everyone we come in contact with.

See I've pin pointed the problem here. You don't understand the basic concepts of the game and how its a GROUP endevour...not to mention the general basics of the stats and feats associated with character creation. Thats why you think there is ONLY one way to play the game...all out combat or all out RP. There is no equal balance in the world you play in. Its okay little buddy its not your fault...I blame your GM...still.

At this point I am convinced that no one (generalized statements yay) can be this closed minded, hard nosed, and just down right wrong on so many levels. I think we have been trolled to the greatest extremes.

I love how this thread turned from him telling us how broken Pathfinder was to telling the boards what each of the stats means as if his statements are truths.

Charisma just means that in social situations you have a flaw. That flaw could be your looks, your demeanor, or even just being awkward. I've played low Cha as a character that carried around jugs of ale and was drunk so blurted out whatever was on his mind. I've played low Cha as a fighter with a glowing tattoo all over his face. I've played low Cha as a disfigured barbarian that constantly wore a leather mask over his face. I've even played a low Cha as someone with tourette syndrome. All of those accomplish the same goal of making social interactions uncomfortable for NPCs so as to effect their thoughts or feelings for that PC.