I am pretty sure that the guys who say that the Gunslinger is not OP have not seen one in action at the higher levels. I am getting a live demonstration every Tuesday. :-/
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Obviously you have different dice than I do, half of all crits made with x4 weapons I make are against beasties which would die to a normal hit:) It might not be the 2/3rds estimate I use, but x4 crit is much more likely to produce 'waste' damage than 18-20 x2 crit. Unless you are fighting regenerating creatures, any damage beyond that than needed to reduce to unconsciousness is wasted.
All sensible guns are x4 and x4 is as good as 18-20/x2. And precision damage will do the rest. So no disadvantage for gunslingers.
Agreed. Carn is correct that mathematically 18-20/x2 is the same as x4. However when you look at DPR actually applied to an enemy, 18-20/x2 pulls way ahead.
Furthermore a pristolero, as GMs likely will frown upon two gun use, will make full use of a light shield.
Hmm, I looked at the description for shields and says if you use a weapon you lose the Shield bonus. Technically reloading is not using a weapon but I'm sure GMs would classify using a shield just as much (if not more) cheese than dual-wielding.
I claiming only overpowered at high levels, phase of OP probably beginning at lev 13 (so at lev 12 not realy overpowered and lev 13 only slightly better), when finally misfire no longer cause problems.
Yes he becomes powerful at 13th level, the Gunslinger jumps in power levels throughout his career, but at this point OP build such as a pouncing barbarian, summoners, horizon walkers, ect. become viable.
No argument for Dual Wielding. Dual Wielding past 13th level greatly increases DPR and pushes the Gunslinger into OP. But nearly any combat oriented class can be cheesed into OP. Also, past 15th level is when Pathfinder as a whole becomes unbalanced anyways.
Design Manager
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If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.The designers have stated that you can make all your main hand attacks first then proceed to offhand or vice versa. Also, what you posted from PSRD says to choose "either weapon first" then make attacks with that weapon in order from highest to lowest. Then use what weapon you chose not to attack with first and make attacks highest to lowest.
It sounds like you plan to shoot all attacks with one hand, using both hands to reload, then drop your primary weapon, swift draw your offhand weapon and fire all of your offhand attacks while again using two hands to reload. Aside from being patently ridiculous, it is also against the rules.Dual Wielding in this manner is ridiculous but legit per RAW, hence why people refer to it as cheese.
@Kaisc
Where have designers said you can make all your main hand attacks first and then switch to off-hand? Half of the uproar a few weeks back about the monk was specifically in reference to the fact that TWF attack routines need to be done in sequence with your alternating weapons and that's how a monk's flurry has to work. Not to mention the fact that the -2 penalty for TWF without a light weapon was something I hadn't even noticed you'd left out in your attack routine earlier, which brings it down that much more.Most of the arguments you're bumping into on this thread though, stem from the fact that you chime in and say the gunslinger is balanced, and then immediately begin to describe how it's not. People are pointing out the issues with your build so that people like the OP can understand why some people have issues with the gunslinger, and why the issues are not class or balance issues, but player and rules comprehension issues. And even with your interpretation of many of the rules, there is still a hefty set of balancing factors at the DM's dsiposal to rein in gunslingers gone wild, namely, reasonable free actions per round, wealth availability (which does have guidelines built directly in to the system) and effective range of monsters.
And as I noted earlier, a DM who really has an issue with the Gunslinger but who likes to run a high loot campaign can always point out that while alchemical paper cartridges reduce the reload time of a one handed firearm to a free action, they are, as written, alchemical items and thus require a move action to draw limiting their use to what you can reasonably have in hand, a factor which cannot be mitigated by Quick Draw, which specifically does not work for alchemical items. This gets rid of your two weapon build making full attacks every round and dropping dragons in round 2.
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Design Manager
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This would cripple the gun slinger and making him worthless, as then he could not make full attacks with one weapon.
a DM who really has an issue with the Gunslinger but who likes to run a high loot campaign can always point out that while alchemical paper cartridges reduce the reload time of a one handed firearm to a free action, they are, as written, alchemical items and thus require a move action to draw limiting their use to what you can reasonably have in hand, a factor which cannot be mitigated by Quick Draw, which specifically does not work for alchemical items. This gets rid of your two weapon build making full attacks every round and dropping dragons in round 2.
No, for a number of reasons.
1) Deadshot- let's the gunslinger pool his potential into a single shot that accounts for his full attack action.2)Lightning Reload- This was where they were intended to pick up unmitigated full attacks anyways, the class was never meant to be full-attacking every round of every combat before 11th level anyways. The paper cartridges should have been a stop-gap to allow you that extra oomph when you needed it, not a mandatory gear requirement for the class.
3)Did I mention they hit against touch AC? This means that by and large, for the 4 levels before they get Deadshot, they're probably the most accurate member of the party, which mitigates the extra attacks available to other ranged fighters who don't have to reload.
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Design Manager
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This would cripple the gun slinger and making him worthless, as then he could not make full attacks with one weapon.
a DM who really has an issue with the Gunslinger but who likes to run a high loot campaign can always point out that while alchemical paper cartridges reduce the reload time of a one handed firearm to a free action, they are, as written, alchemical items and thus require a move action to draw limiting their use to what you can reasonably have in hand, a factor which cannot be mitigated by Quick Draw, which specifically does not work for alchemical items. This gets rid of your two weapon build making full attacks every round and dropping dragons in round 2.
And furthermore its not RAW:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammun itionSRD lists it under ammunition.
My ultimate combat has a section titled "Firearm ammunition and adventuring gear".About the alchemical cartrisge it says:
"Alchemical cartridges make firearm loading easier,..." defining the effect upon the required reload action.The only two aspects in favor of it being an alchemical item are, that one needs craft alchemy 1 and gunsmithing to make ammunition and the name "alchemical". Neither the name nor the way something is made give clear indication, what it is.
d20 SRD has nothing to do with rules as written, look in the PRD for RAW. It is included under a table titled Table: Firearm Gear, not Firearm Ammunition.
Regardless, my point wasn't that this was the final end-all be-all, just that it was open to DM mitigation RAW.As to the effect it has, a gunslinger with a BAB of +6/+1 using a one-handed weapon and holding a paper cartridge ready in his off-hand would benefit by getting an extra attack in that round. Instead of getting one attack every other round, he could full-attack, every other round, which is still an improvement. I'm not interested in making this into an argument, I'm just pointing out what's out there.
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I see your argument and raise you a misfire chance that no other class has.
(Keep in mind there are no critical failures per RAW in Pathfinder)
I'll see your misfire chance and raise you Utility Shot, Targeting, and Evasive, amongst others, which, along with bonus feats and decent skill points, give the gunslinger a level of utility and ability well in excess of most other full BAB classes.
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Carn, if I was really feeling like rules quibbling, I'd point that there's a difference between the item Alchemical Cartridge, and the metal cartridge that advanced firearms use as ammunition. The same argument can be made, ad infinitum. I don't even rule that way, I just pointed out that the argument could be made. As for hitting touch AC being useless, that's the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. Take the humble troglodyte, and his high natural armor bonus scaled brethren, who has a 15 for both his AC and Flat-footed AC, but a 9 for touch. Dragons et all are the same, and against all of these creatures your gunslinger has a ludicrous advantage in landing attacks. It blows my mind that people want to keep arguing with me, despite the fact that I'm pointing out that the Gunslinger is balanced. Also, lightning reload allows you to reload a single barrel of a one handed weapon as a free action with Rapid Reload, giving you your full attack but pointing out that it was clearly never intended for dual-wielding dual-barreled gunslingers to be full attacking every round, as they're the only ones who wouldn't get a full attack from this ability.
Also, it's ridiculous for people advocating ridiculous OP builds to claim grit is a balancing factor, since you regain grit by dropping an enemy, and you'll be doing that guaranteed with some of the suggested cheese.
How do you guys feel about Musket Master?
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Add me to the list of DMs who have experience with Gunslinger and find that it is NOT broken. I DM'd a level 15 Gunslinger, so if you consider that to be "high level", I still don't think they're overpowered... even when combining Rapid Reload, Alchemical Cartridges, and/or Lightning Reload to be able to always reload as a free action.
Reason being, Gunslingers have to invest so many feats and gold into being able to shoot well, that they're hardly good at anything else. The Gunslinger I DM'd was easily doing ~40 damage per shot or more, but that's all she could really do. If her gun was disarmed or she got grappled or something, she might as well have been a sitting log.
Not to mention, she was completely useless at long range. I think she had to be within 20 feet or something for her shots to even be worthwhile. Gunslingers CAN shoot things well, but that's the only thing they're good at... they hugely lack versatility. They're not overpowered.
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Add me to the list of DMs who have experience with Gunslinger and find that it is NOT broken. I DM'd a level 15 Gunslinger, so if you consider that to be "high level", I still don't think they're overpowered... even when combining Rapid Reload, Alchemical Cartridges, and/or Lightning Reload to be able to always reload as a free action.
Reason being, Gunslingers have to invest so many feats and gold into being able to shoot well, that they're hardly good at anything else. The Gunslinger I DM'd was easily doing ~40 damage per shot or more, but that's all she could really do. If her gun was disarmed or she got grappled or something, she might as well have been a sitting log.
Not to mention, she was completely useless at long range. I think she had to be within 20 feet or something for her shots to even be worthwhile. Gunslingers CAN shoot things well, but that's the only thing they're good at... they hugely lack versatility. They're not overpowered.
For the record, this is my experience with Gunslingers as well (albeit at a lower level). They're really focused, combat-wise, on shooting and doing damage. They're good at it...but they're pretty lacklustre otherwise. Much like the classic archer-Fighter or Ranger in that respect.
Outside combat they have decent skills, better than a Fighter or Barbarian...but less than a Ranger, and basically nothing else.
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Where have designers said you can make all your main hand attacks first and then switch to off-hand?
Scroll down halfway and you'll see I said exactly what Jason Bulhmahn stated almost four years ago during the beta phase. There are plenty of arguments on threads of issues that have been solved a long time ago just like the whole dual wielding debate we're having right now.
I don't even rule that way, I just pointed out that the argument could be made
Carn has shown the argument regarding alchemical ammunition as an alchemical item can't be made...
OK wow... I am GMing a party with a high level gunslinger people are forgetting that alchemical cartridges iirc adds +1 to misfire. And when it comes to their balance you have to remember unless guns are readily available then the gunslinger will be hurting to have enough ammo. In fact even at level 17 my groups gunslinger refuses to be caught without his back up shortbow. Another of my groups is playing in a more modern mana-punk world similar to some Final Fantasy games and has a gunslinger and guns are actually easily obtained. Heck we houseruled in automatic guns and the gunslinger is still hurting for damage and ammo. He falls back on a rapier fairly often to avoid running out. So even in an optimal world gunslingers have a hard time keeping up. Unless they find some loop-hole or gimmick and even then they might have a hard time. Especially since they only get touch AC in first range increment.
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OK wow... I am GMing a party with a high level gunslinger people are forgetting that alchemical cartridges iirc adds +1 to misfire. And when it comes to their balance you have to remember unless guns are readily available then the gunslinger will be hurting to have enough ammo. In fact even at level 17 my groups gunslinger refuses to be caught without his back up shortbow. Another of my groups is playing in a more modern mana-punk world similar to some Final Fantasy games and has a gunslinger and guns are actually easily obtained. Heck we houseruled in automatic guns and the gunslinger is still hurting for damage and ammo. He falls back on a rapier fairly often to avoid running out. So even in an optimal world gunslingers have a hard time keeping up. Unless they find some loop-hole or gimmick and even then they might have a hard time. Especially since they only get touch AC in first range increment.
Uh...ammo shouldn't be that difficult, as they can make it themselves. And by even 4th or 5th level 300 GP for 50 paper cartridges is very affordable.
OK wow... I am GMing a party with a high level gunslinger people are forgetting that alchemical cartridges iirc adds +1 to misfire. And when it comes to their balance you have to remember unless guns are readily available then the gunslinger will be hurting to have enough ammo. In fact even at level 17 my groups gunslinger refuses to be caught without his back up shortbow. Another of my groups is playing in a more modern mana-punk world similar to some Final Fantasy games and has a gunslinger and guns are actually easily obtained. Heck we houseruled in automatic guns and the gunslinger is still hurting for damage and ammo. He falls back on a rapier fairly often to avoid running out. So even in an optimal world gunslingers have a hard time keeping up. Unless they find some loop-hole or gimmick and even then they might have a hard time. Especially since they only get touch AC in first range increment.
Dont forget a wand of abundant ammunition. Or make an ammo pouch with this cast on it (probably a custom item, im to tired to look right now). with all the skills that they get, UMD should not be to hard to keep up and this effectively solves any ammo problems. Saves you alot of gold as well.
in my games ammo is hard to come by simply do to the fact that it is specific to an individual to the weapon and must be crafted by the user (i use a DC10 Craft Gunsmithing check). Which is historically what was required as there was no such thing as mass produced firearms at least not in large quantities. In fact historically the largest early firearm mass production was by the spanish with every 5 rifles using a single bullet mold. In my mana-punk/high-tech level worlds it depends on whether it is a rifle, assault rifle, pistol, or shotgun and the enemies encountered. Heck I even have different types of each gun to make it more challenging. As with all houserules YMMV.
On the archtypes it depends on the group composition. In a melee focused group then the gunslinger will dominate as they will fire before anyone else gets into combat. In a ranged focused group they will be out stripped quickly in a world where guns are rare. If they are available fairly easily then most likely Players will start to take them over bows and crossbows especially since if you go based on what is expected then a lot of archery feats work with them as well. Again this is what happened historically. The musket actually is more devastating in terms of damage than most of our modern rifles. Especially when you look at the fact that the common musket caliber was .55-.69 Heck one of the most famous rifles from the civil war was around .75 caliber. Look at the modern M4 assault rifle it uses what is effectively a modified .22 magnum.
What I'm getting at is gunslingers if you are making them emerging and feel they are to powerful talk to your GM about making it ammo must be crafted. If you are playing a commonplace firearms campaign then yeah the firearms will start to over take bows.
But remember if they are emerging then they are exotic and surprisingly faulted unless you metagame the build. If they are any era after emerging then most likely they are martial if not simple weapons. Which means you can adapt and use it for yourself. Heck even today the bow and crossbow is a novelty.
Hope this makes sense.
I am pretty sure that the guys who say that the Gunslinger is not OP have not seen one in action at the higher levels. I am getting a live demonstration every Tuesday. :-/You mentioned that you let your Gunslinger character use two "six-shooter non-revolvers". Do you mean pepperboxes or are these a homebrew firearm - because that might be the lion's share of the problem there (or at least a force-multiplier for the Gunslinger's issues, which are normally much smaller). And if you look closely at the Iconic Gunslinger; she's just using normal flintlock pistols, not revolvers or anything fancy.
With how firearms reload in this, I don't see the benefit in a character carrying more than one pistol unless it's so they can quickly draw the second one when the first is empty. I'm using a tiefling gunslinger at the moment in a Council of Thieves game and I haven't been doing any major damage so far (granted, there's only been a few fights and, since it's forum-based, is going a lot slower than a normal game, but she hasn't managed to kill anyone yet).
And are you doing anything to keep larger creatures with low touch-AC out of his first range increment so he has to try and hit their normal AC?
EDIT: Also, haven't cannons been mentioned in some AP instalments as defences on some keeps or am I getting confused? I know that cannons wouldn't be anachronistic - they were around in England during the Middle Ages, I think, and they're used on ships.
EDIT2: Here we go; England was using cannons back in 1327: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_cannon Wouldn't be too out-of-place in Golarion, IMHO.
It's two Pepperboxes, with a mechanism that automatically spins the barrel. We wanted to make a two-weapon Gunslinger viable without resorting to cheese like getting two levels of Alchemist and growing a third arm, so I cleared that mechanism with him ( he has Knowledge: Engineering at max rank, so that explained it more or less in-lore ).
And, yes, I know that this is a reason why he is so good. OTOH, he still doesn't even have Rapid Shot and hasn't even tried to argue for getting Manyshot, so he is only getting two shots more per round than he normally would.
The problem is that he completely circumvents most AC rules with his ranged touch attacks. The rest of the character is not different from an archer, only with less range.
As for the range question, I am GM'ing Carrion Crown... and you know the predilection of APs to put players into cramped rooms, right?
I know nothing on the AP issue... Though I will say the Touch AC problem can be overcome in cramped spaces by having enemies use cover and such. In my low firearm world that is how I managed to put our gunslinger in his place after he got a big ego early on in the campaign after some lucky crits on some lowly kobolds. His enemies hugged cover until he either stopped firing or moved in close enough to attack him.
Simple tactic often forgotten or utilized in an incomplete fashion Though a good party can unravel it.
Hmm wonder what he might do if his pistols were stolen from him... sorry I got to brainstorming.
Back on topic. A Slinger's power comes from availability of ammo & firearms, space, and Tactics. I have found the more common firearms are the weaker a gunslinger becomes overall. While the Slinger has good perks an archery based fighter wielding a rifle especially one that say is lever action and holds 8 rounds (if you allow it) such as the early lever actions from the civil war. And the fighter outstrips the gunslinger in all but the slinger's specialization in firearms some of which is made up by the fighter weapon training and weapon mastery.
On the early revolvers look at the colt navy such as the ivory handled ones used by IIRC wild bill.
As far as the general brokenness/cheesiness of gunslingers goes comes it's the duel wielding pistols (or double barreled pistols) and using up close and deadly that really breaks things.
They are generally hated because of the sheer amount of damage you can do (brokenness) and the act I like to call 'gun juggling' so you can reload (cheesiness).
The biggest flaw I can see in the build is up until 13th level misfires are going to make you their b*&!@. But as it has been pointed out, misfires don't mean much when you kill people in one round, which can still happen.Also to avoid Gunslinger hate, don't use a double hackbutt. You really should go adventuring with one of those, they really should have been classed as siege weapons.
actually it'd be more like ~12d8 + ~12*dex mod because of gun training, assuming you take gun training with the pepper box that is, but why wouldn't you?I know at eleventh level I can take lightening reload and reload as a swift action. By that time I will have multiple attacks I will be able to reload one barrel a round as a swift action. So with even with the pepper box I 2 rounds of full attack before I need to reload which will take me 2 rounds to fully reload. (2 from the swift actions on the two rounds firing, 2 move actions a one swift to load 3 more rounds and then one more move action to reload) so over 8 rounds I will do ~12d8. t actually seems kind of low at 11th level. I suppose I could have multiple pepper boxes with some enhancements so it would be more.
I guess it seems balanced to me...either that or I am missing something.
Meh, I have seen several other builds that will beat out a gunslinger in damage. Their damage matches that of an archer at lower levels and surpasses them mid levels. However they have to be closer to melee combat. Even then you could argue their DPR dips a little because they have to move a little more to avoid attacks and misfire chances. In the end the class is pretty balanced, it just doesn't have to try that hard to hit.
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To summarize:
More accurate, Shorter range, Possibility for Small supply of ammo, lower potential damage, weakened by widespread use of firearms.
You know I just done a little bit of math and realized a Wizard can cast magic missile for a higher maximum damage than an equal level gunslinger firing the maximum number of shots from their pistol the only variable is the Gunslinger getting a critical or a misfire.
Ah, that makes sense. Still, I don't think that character's a good example of what most Gunslingers are like - even the auto-rotating mechanism for the pepperboxes can be enough to skew the results - and you seem to be basing your opinion on the class on this one character.
I'm not saying that the class doesn't have the potential for breaking encounters, and the close-quarters nature of most AP encounters does present a real problem. But this guy sounds like he's still putting out more fire than a normal Gunslinger would be.
Two more shots per round at level 14... it's close enough to what a "one firearm" Gunslinger would do. As I said, the problem is not the damage output itself ( an archer would do comparable damage ), but that he hits touch AC and therefore circumvents the AC mechanic almost completely. Oh, and also stuff like auto-disarming opponents or auto-tripping. That is just something which shouldn't be in the game.
With the mechanism, though; have you thought about increasing the misfire chance to reflect the extra complexity from the mechanism? Or has he found a way to get around misfires? And I assume he's gotten his reload speed down to a free action? Maybe introduce a limit on how many free actions a person can take in a turn? Fast as he may be, I doubt he can unload twelve barrels and then reload them all in a six second period. Or has he used his Know(Engineering) ranks to invent a pepperbox speedloader (which you could also use as an excuse to boost the misfire rate - that and the mechanism are both probably prototypes)?
Frankly, if his Know(Engineering) score was high enough to invent this stuff, I'm surprised he hasn't invented the revolver yet (I think there were some early revolvers that still used the compacted-power-and-lead-ball ammo, ramrod was worked by a lever on the underside of the barrel).
I refrained from allowing revolvers in the game, because that would have eliminated one of the few other things a Gunslinger has going against him, the range issue.
And he has not even tried to lower his reload times... he needs a standard to reload one barrel. However, given the fast-paced nature of Pathfinder combat, I have yet to see, in 15 levels of play, that he had to reload in combat even once. He has twelve shots and at the level we are playing at, the vast majority of combats is over in two rounds. I plan on using that against him in the final encounter ( which should come around in two weeks ).
As for misfires... he ate quite a lot of them during the campaign. It didn't really slow him down. And as he is a Pistolero, they aren't an issue anymore.
The character seemed more or less in line at the lower levels, but as soon as mid-levels arrived ( i.e. as soon as he reached the fifth level of Gunslinger), it went completely through the roof. I'm saving myself the trouble of allowing it anymore in my games. I don't want to have to rebuilt entire encounters due to ones class ability to almost completely circumvent one of the most important defensive features of the game. Alchemists are bad enough in that regard, but at least they run dry very fast if they go all-out with their bombs.
Good foresight and luck. For example he loaded up on adamantine bullets because he was expecting lots of high-level spellcasters ( i.e. ones which would logically cast Stoneskin ) and as it happens the group ran into a lot of golems on the same level.
He could easily also have taken the Clustered Shots feat, but didn't. So far it has worked out still quite well for him. Using Up Close and Deadly as his signature deed ( and never really missing, because of the half-damage rule ) has helped a lot in the last three levels, too.
OK wow... I am GMing a party with a high level gunslinger people are forgetting that alchemical cartridges iirc adds +1 to misfire. And when it comes to their balance you have to remember unless guns are readily available then the gunslinger will be hurting to have enough ammo. In fact even at level 17 my groups gunslinger refuses to be caught without his back up shortbow. Another of my groups is playing in a more modern mana-punk world similar to some Final Fantasy games and has a gunslinger and guns are actually easily obtained. Heck we houseruled in automatic guns and the gunslinger is still hurting for damage and ammo. He falls back on a rapier fairly often to avoid running out. So even in an optimal world gunslingers have a hard time keeping up. Unless they find some loop-hole or gimmick and even then they might have a hard time. Especially since they only get touch AC in first range increment.
A lot of video games have Unlimited ammo (and potions/Either that replenish Magic).
Good foresight and luck. For example he loaded up on adamantine bullets because he was expecting lots of high-level spellcasters ( i.e. ones which would logically cast Stoneskin ) and as it happens the group ran into a lot of golems on the same level.
Isnt avoiding the problem of DR just 1 feat for a pistolero, so he can load the necessary ammunition as free action?
Or is this players approach to save on ammunition cost by using only bullets in six barreled peppbox double wield?
Ammunition costs kinda become redundant at higher levels, even buying a hundred adamantine bullets like he did.
Uh, yeah? Also non-alchemical stuff still is a lot cheaper than making alchemical cartridges. ^^
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I still don't see the issue...I'm running Council of Thieves and have a Goblin Pistolero that I designed for the player because he wanted a dual wielding gunslinger, so I know its good. In one turn he crit with one shot and double misfired to have his gun explode in his face. He is constantly firing BOTH barrels in his double barrel pistols and this happens quite frequently...if you are using paper cartridges you are twice as likely to misfire than to crit.
If you have problems with things shooting at touch AC then use some monks as enemies.
If you have a problem rationalizing how he can create his own ammo remember that wizards shoot fire from their hands.
Most really apparent issues came about when level 10 was passed. A Monks touch AC is not likely to hold up at this level and further.
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You know I just done a little bit of math and realized a Wizard can cast magic missile for a higher maximum damage than an equal level gunslinger firing the maximum number of shots from their pistol the only variable is the Gunslinger getting a critical or a misfire.
Could we see this math please?
The character seemed more or less in line at the lower levels, but as soon as mid-levels arrived ( i.e. as soon as he reached the fifth level of Gunslinger), it went completely through the roof. I'm saving myself the trouble of allowing it anymore in my games. I don't want to have to rebuilt entire encounters due to ones class ability to almost completely circumvent one of the most important defensive features of the game.
Had you incorporated a higher misfire chance, say 1-3, he would not have been as broken. Also, to circumvent these defensive features the gunslinger is getting very close to his enemies, making a huge racket, and killing them. This seems like a good justification for enemies to focus fire him after his first slavo. If facing foes who've heard of them, they'll probably go straight for his throat.
So when talking about overpowered gunslinger i assume those claiming its OP, actually only mean the musketeer and even more the pistolero archetype.
I'd agree that the archetypes (pistoler/musketeer) themselves are OP in comparison to the other gunslinger archetypes simply because gunslingers must choose one or the other if they want to be effective. But they aren't OP in general.
I was wondering how they were auto-disarming and auto-tripping opponents, but I took another look at the Deeds (my own Gunslinger's still pretty low-level so I haven't looked into the higher-level deeds yet) and saw Targeting as well as the Pistolero's Twin-Shot Knockdown. Those seem pretty powerful - I'd be tempted to up their cost in Grit to maybe two or more. Although I remember you saying that he hardly ever ran out of Grit so that might not work.
Targetting is pretty ridiculous and I'm not sure why they included this in the game. As far as I know it's the only auto condition ability in the game. If you took signature deed, you could effectively confuse a BBEG every round. However, most gunslingers have 1-2 grit points until around level 10. Upping the grit point cost is not the solution. Instead simply have the ability grant a fortitude save [10+1/2 gunslinger level+Dex mod]. Dexterity mod because it requires a well placed shot.
Had you incorporated a higher misfire chance, say 1-3, he would not have been as broken. Also, to circumvent these defensive features the gunslinger is getting very close to his enemies, making a huge racket, and killing them. This seems like a good justification for enemies to focus fire him after his first slavo. If facing foes who've heard of them, they'll probably go straight for his throat.
I did give him a 1-3 misfire chance. It didn't slow him down much.
And additional to his great damage output, he managed to get an obscenely high AC at the early levels ( which by now has leveled out with the obscenely high ACs of the other frontliners ), due to his level in Alchemist. So focusing him with enemies normally worked to the advantage of the group.
And disallowing the class completely works out pretty well for my taste. You don't have to rewrite all the bad stuff about it... and it really doesn't fit thematically with most of Golarion, anyway.
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Had you incorporated a higher misfire chance, say 1-3, he would not have been as broken. Also, to circumvent these defensive features the gunslinger is getting very close to his enemies, making a huge racket, and killing them. This seems like a good justification for enemies to focus fire him after his first slavo. If facing foes who've heard of them, they'll probably go straight for his throat.I did give him a 1-3 misfire chance. It didn't slow him down much.
And additional to his great damage output, he managed to get an obscenely high AC at the early levels ( which by now has leveled out with the obscenely high ACs of the other frontliners ), due to his level in Alchemist. So focusing him with enemies normally worked to the advantage of the group.
And disallowing the class completely works out pretty well for my taste. You don't have to rewrite all the bad stuff about it... and it really doesn't fit thematically with most of Golarion, anyway.
What is your definition of obscenely high AC?
To summarize:
Possibility for Small supply of ammo,
Only if one adjusts rules
lower potential damage,Can somebody explain, how an archer beats the +3d6 a pistolero at lev 11+ gets on each shot always, with the added cheese that on a miss, he always deals 3d6/2?
Actually you don't even have to adjust the rules for them to run out of ammo. You just have to make it to where they have to wait longer between crafting sessions or even my personal favorite stick them into a situation where the gun isn't viable. such as a damp cave or plenty on other areas.
On the pistolero you have to remember that by lvl 11 the archer would have magic weapons and probably a good amount of magic ammo types. Look at some magic properties for ranged weapons/ammo. They can dramatically increase DPR. Heck I seen an arcane archer beat out a pistolero's. While his arrows where situational be bane arrows and elemental it still doesn't reduce the impact it had on the gunslinger.
Now the archer doesn't get any damage on a miss.
Personally I would never play a gunslinger(unless I could get a motorcycle with the class) because it lacks versatility. It's the same reason I don't play fighters.
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To summarize:
Possibility for Small supply of ammo,
Only if one adjusts rules
lower potential damage,Can somebody explain, how an archer beats the +3d6 a pistolero at lev 11+ gets on each shot always, with the added cheese that on a miss, he always deals 3d6/2?
Actually you don't even have to adjust the rules for them to run out of ammo. You just have to make it to where they have to wait longer between crafting sessions or even my personal favorite stick them into a situation where the gun isn't viable. such as a damp cave or plenty on other areas.
On the pistolero you have to remember that by lvl 11 the archer would have magic weapons and probably a good amount of magic ammo types. Look at some magic properties for ranged weapons/ammo. They can dramatically increase DPR. Heck I seen an arcane archer beat out a pistolero's. While his arrows where situational be bane arrows and elemental it still doesn't reduce the impact it had on the gunslinger.
Now the archer doesn't get any damage on a miss.
Archers also aren't paying 2000g just to own a regular old bow...heck you could pay for an archery UNIT for the price of upgrading ONE or buying one more.