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Will multiclassing for spellcasters be modified in Pathfinder? I really think it should be addressed, and the changes would be very easily backwards compatible.
I think characters should gain Caster Levels from other classes... full levels if the 2nd class is a full caster of the same type (Arcane/Divine), 1/2 levels if they are a semi-caster (like the Ranger) or a full caster of the other type (such as a Wizard/Cleric), and 1/3 levels if the class is a non-caster, or only a semi-caster of the opposite type.
So, a Wizard 6/ Cleric 4/ Rogue 3 has an ACL (Arcane Caster Level) of 9 (6+2+1) and a DCL (Divine Caster Level) of 8 (3+4+1).
Yes, something like this was covered in the A1 forums. I think the favored result was that it required investment of feats. Honestly, until rules come from it, we've got house rules to compensate.
And before they chime in, there are those that believe that PrCs fill this gap nicely. And those that say if you multiclass, you know what you're giving up for what you're gaining. And those that feel the mixed base classes provide what you're looking for.
I think it should be automatic, since a multiclassed fighter/wizard improves his combat abilities automaticly too!
I think it should be automatic, since a multiclassed fighter/wizard improves his combat abilities automaticly too!
I agree with you (again ;-))
The rule of the OP is quite neat and can be core without issues I guess.
I think it should be automatic, since a multiclassed fighter/wizard improves his combat abilities automaticly too!
Unless he doesn't take a level of fighter, he won't get much better over time. A little because the BAB of a wizard does increase over time, just very very slowly. If he takes a level of mage his spell casting gets better, but he doesn't get the fighter bonus feats. If you have a fighter/wizard who wants to get more fighter feats, they take the class. I do not think that F/W should automatically get to be better wizards by swinging a sword.
I like the concept would go well with an idea we worked on with another thread where we reduced everything to two spell lists (arcane/divine) and every casting class would gain one or the other at a certain rate.
Divine:
Cleric 100% (+1 caster level every level)
Druid 66% (+1 caster level every level but 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18)
Paladin/Ranger 50% (+1 caster level every even level)
Arcane:
Sorcerer 66% (same as druid)
Wizard 100% (same as cleric)
Both:
Bard 50%/50% (+1 divine every odd level, +1 Arcane every even level)
Also DCs for spells are 10 + 1/2 caster level + Ability Modifier + Misc Modifer
This makes casting as simple as it is going to ever get, you only have 2 spell lists, 1 spell slot list, 1 spells known list, and interchangable caster level (ie if you have bard and cleric you can just gain extra divine casting as though it was the same class.)
also completely backwards compatible.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I think that the progression from the Book of 9 Swords would work fine for spellcasters. Basically, caster level equals caster level from main casting class, plus 1/2 all other classes. If you have multiple casting classes, they also count as only 1/2 towards each other.
So:
Wiz 4/Ftr 4 = casts at 6th level caster
Wiz 6/Clr 4/Ftr 4 = casts as 10th level wizard/9th level cleric
I've never felt this sort of problem as either a gamer or a DM. If you want to be a mighty fighter who throws fireballs, great take wizard to 5th level and concentrate of fighting. Or do one of the odd ball PrCs. However, I don't feel that a wizard (or cleric, or any other sort of spell slinger) should get a boost in their spell power because they took additional levels in fighter classes (includes paladin and ranger as well). My players haven't had a problem either taking the practiced caster feat (for up to a +4 Caster Level (for range, effect, but not spell levels)) for their caster classes and sticking with their fighter classes, nor have my mages who dipped into a fighter class felt that they should get say weapon specialization because they took a level of fighter in their 13 level build.
I think a system like that could be very easily broken to favor multicasters.
Honestly, I think the given system is fine. That's what PRCs are for. That being said, a few new PRCs in the pathfinder book, esp those that encourage multiclassing and work specifically with the pathfinder system, that would be nice..........
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I dunno ... a valid argument one poster made is that prestige classes either offer 1/1 or 2/1 spellcaster progression. If you set every other class out there to have 3/1 or even 4/1 spellcaster progression, that would be fair and balanced.
After all, a fighter who takes levels in wizard does get to be a better fighter, although very slowly ...
I think that the progression from the Book of 9 Swords would work fine for spellcasters. Basically, caster level equals caster level from main casting class, plus 1/2 all other classes. If you have multiple casting classes, they also count as only 1/2 towards each other.
So:
Wiz 4/Ftr 4 = casts at 6th level caster
Wiz 6/Clr 4/Ftr 4 = casts as 10th level wizard/9th level cleric
I find such a progression really simple and easy to implement. I'm stealing it! :P
Regards,
ZOOROOS
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IMO, Caster level for a caster is equivalent to BAB for a Fighter. If you advance in either your main class or one that is very similarly martial-focused (such as Barbarian), your BAB increases at the full progression, the only difference is the powers and abilities gained. If you advance in a related class, such as Rogue, it increases 2 points every 3 levels. If you advance in something totally different, such as a Wizard, your BAB still increases at 1/2 rate, +1 BAB every 2 levels.
Now, we could do the same progression for Casters, maybe even just cut it down to 2 categories: Full progression if you are in a similar type full caster class, such as Wizard/Sorcerer, or Cleric/Druid. (These really should stack fully IMO because you aren't gaining access to many spells you didn't have before, and you're trading higher level spells for lower level ones.) Then have 1/2 progression for all other classes. That's even more simplified than my previous suggestion, and is close to the suggestion given above about 1/2 for all other classes, with the 1 caveat.
This has come up multiple times in our games, and it really handicaps characters who dip into casting classes if the caster level never rises, while Martial characters still get BAB increases at 2/3 or 1/2 rate.
That's what I meant. We could easily incorporate two extra colums into the class tables: Spell level (Arcane) and Spell level (Divine), just like BAB.
That way you only have to look up your spell levels, sum them up and you're done.
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That's what I meant. We could easily incorporate two extra colums into the class tables: Spell level (Arcane) and Spell level (Divine), just like BAB.
That way you only have to look up your spell levels, sum them up and you're done.
I'd call it ACL (Arcane Caster Level) and DCL (Divine Caster Level).
But there's not really even a need for additional columns. I think it's pretty obvious which classes are major casters from the same type, and if not, just include a notation with the class ("This class is an Arcane Caster, and counts for full ACL when combined with other Arcane casting classes.") Paladins and Rangers only gain a 1/2 DCL and ACL respectively, but it would start counting at 1st level, not 4th (since Fighters and others would all count as 1/2 level ACL and DCL starting from 1st too).
So if you allow CL from different classes to stack:
What caster level does a mystic theurge10/wizard3/cleric 3 have in each class.
In 3.5, the character is (barring feats) effectively CL 13 wizard and Cl 13 cleric.
If you go even with the sugestion of 1/2Cl of other class is he CL15 in each (3 base + 1/2*3 other + 10 for theurge) or is he Cl21 (13 from ECL of one class + 1/2*ECL of other)?
If you go 1 for 1... is he CL16 or CL26?
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So if you allow CL from different classes to stack:
What caster level does a mystic theurge10/wizard3/cleric 3 have in each class.
In 3.5, the character is (barring feats) effectively CL 13 wizard and Cl 13 cleric.
If you go even with the sugestion of 1/2Cl of other class is he CL15 in each (3 base + 1/2*3 other + 10 for theurge) or is he Cl21 (13 from ECL of one class + 1/2*ECL of other)?
If you go 1 for 1... is he CL16 or CL26?
He'd be ACL/DCL either 14 or 15, depending upon whether you round up or down. Since BAB starts at +0 for non-martial types and only increases later, I'd probably follow the same rule with CL, meaning you'd round down. He gets a +1 CL at the 2nd level of the cross class, and combined with the other 13 full levels, he'd be ACL 14 / DCL 14.
But the thing is, even multiclassed characters ARE ONE PERSON!
Class skills become "characer skills", BAB increases too, so why not caster level (I knew spell level wasn't the right term but I strangely forgot caster level).
And with the new columns it's going much way easier.
No need for Prestige classes mixing +1 caster level and +1 spellcasting level in the same column.
He'd be ACL/DCL either 14 or 15, depending upon whether you round up or down. Since BAB starts at +0 for non-martial types and only increases later, I'd probably follow the same rule with CL, meaning you'd round down. He gets a +1 CL at the 2nd level of the cross class, and combined with the other 13 full levels, he'd be ACL 14 / DCL 14.
Unlike BAB (which adds in the full BAB of both classes), we are postulating only adding half the Cl of the other class so I don't see how that effects your reasoning on rounding up or down as we are not using the same mechanic (1 for 1 transfer). But that isn't really my point.
What I was trying to point out (and rather badly, if I do say so myself, and I do)is that the theurge adds CL to both the wizard and the cleric and should those CL be pre or post addition before adding in the second class for CL computation. Your answer clearly indicates you feel it is a post addition (as do I, because no level 16 character should have a CL21 IMHO).
I also think that I have been out of school too long and need to brush up on my grammar :-)
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combining caster level is not a good idea although the need for it is reasonable.
It also depends what you mean when you say caster level. does a multiclassing CL affect just the CL or spell acquisition as well? For balance reasons I would rule no to spell acquisition otherwise theres no point in playing a straight caster. secondly the practiced spellcaster feats do a fine job of increasing CL and (given even a half CL progression) would be more effective than having every class increase CL.
The mystic theurge example above could spend 2 feats on practiced spellcaster and have an effective CL of 16/16, better than what your suggesting plus with more feats practiced spellcaster times two isn't that big a loss anymore.
If you wanted to make practiced spellcaster more useful for multiclassing over just 2 classes my suggestion would be to make an advanced spellcaster feat that adds an additional +4 CL with practiced spellcaster as a prerequisite but also increases spell acquisition by +4 levels.
So a 10 fighter/10 wizard with practiced spellcaster and advanced spellcaster would have a CL of 18 but a spell list of a 14th level wizard caster instead of 10th. But a 5 wizard/1 fighter/10 eldritch knight would have a CL of 16 and a spell acquisition of 16 also with 2 levels spare.
While I think thats pretty powerful, with Paizos approach to revamping the base classes those 10 eldritch knight levels mean you sacrifice a lot of the new powers of a wizard and fighter just to keep up with a straight wizard so its a fair trade off.
Focused Spellcaster (general feat)
Prerequisites: none
Effect: Add one to your caster level for all purposes including bonus spells, additional spells known and access to higher level spells.
your caster level can never be higher than your character level and in fact must remain one level lower even with this feat. This feat is stackable.
The problem with this idea is that it can make multi-class dipping into caster classes an issue. A 12th monk takes a one level dip in wizard to wear mage armor all day (because half his monk levels count toward caster level) and picks up Ray of Enfeeblement and Magic Missile as well (both at very high effectiveness).
It also introduces a spell 'pop' mechanic. If the 12th level fighter takes 1 level of wizard at 13th level but counts half his fighter levels toward CL then he is instantly casting CL 7 spells.
I agree this issue needs to be resolved but I think it needs to be done through feats. It should require ranks in Spellcasting and have the ability to cast spells as a prerequisite. So you can't take the feat at the level you gain the ability to cast. You have to be able to cast first, then improve your caster level. A feat that let you apply half your non-caster class levels to your Caster Level seems reasonable to me.
There are a few points I think should be made,
Even if you go 50/50 Fighter/Wizard (for example) without some form of boost to you spells you'll end up without access to level appropriate spells, and indirectly, lower saves for your spells causing it to be less effective or even ineffective. (lower saves due to spell level)
Having played a character that for plot related reasons as a 12th lvl Fighter started to pick up, _at_no_cost_, spell casting. Albeit it started at first level Wizard equliviant, but he picked up power faster than he was leveling. Other than the ability to drop a few Fireballs before the combat really started it didn't seem too overpowering tho that might have been in part my playing style.
And as a final note, there is one quick and easy way for a non-spellcaster to get access to the abilities of a full caster up to 2 levels lower than they are.... Leadership. Granted they won't have access to the self only spells, but other than that...
Having said all that there should be some limit, and there would need to be some mechanism in place to stop the 'pop' Arne mentioned, tho thinking about it, in the case of the 12th lvl Fighter taking a level of Wizard at that point, becomes a 1st lvl Wizard with access to all the spells of a 1st level Wizard, and casting them as a 7th level character, is that too much of an issue? And your taking a turn out to cast rather than have your 3 attacks that round.
Later,
Oni
This is a great idea, if Pathfinder totally replaces 3.5e.
For those of us who will use it to augment 3.5, then the rule proposed nerfs or modifies the use of any number of prestige classes that improve spellcasting. Take the (OGC) prestige bard, for example, who gets 7/10 spellcasting. Would he get 7/10 plus the 1/3 bard class bonus? Or just 7/10, in which case the prestige class just got a whole lot less prestigious? (I could cite any number of other examples; I picked that one just because it's OGC and offers a fractional improvement mechanic.)
Unlike BAB (which adds in the full BAB of both classes), we are postulating only adding half the Cl of the other class so I don't see how that effects your reasoning on rounding up or down as we are not using the same mechanic (1 for 1 transfer). But that isn't really my point.
In D&D/d20 rules, you round down no matter the fraction, so I think Samurai was ust operating under that assumption.
What I was trying to point out (and rather badly, if I do say so myself, and I do)is that the theurge adds CL to both the wizard and the cleric and should those CL be pre or post addition before adding in the second class for CL computation. Your answer clearly indicates you feel it is a post addition (as do I, because no level 16 character should have a CL21 IMHO).
Maybe it's not clear above, but you count 1/2 class level, not 1/2 caster level. So it doesn't matter if you are a Cleric 6/Wiz 4 or Cleric 6/Fighter 4, or Cleric 6/Rogue 4, you would add 2 to your cleric spellcasting. So, since the mystic theurge adds to your cleric spellcasting, you wouldn't count it even though it adds to wizard spellcasting as well.
So a cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 10 would necessarily cast as cleric 14, wizard 14 (under this "add 1/2 other class levels" rule). :)
Hope that clarifies it a bit.
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This is a great idea, if Pathfinder totally replaces 3.5e.
For those of us who will use it to augment 3.5, then the rule proposed nerfs or modifies the use of any number of prestige classes that improve spellcasting. Take the (OGC) prestige bard, for example, who gets 7/10 spellcasting. Would he get 7/10 plus the 1/3 bard class bonus? Or just 7/10, in which case the prestige class just got a whole lot less prestigious? (I could cite any number of other examples; I picked that one just because it's OGC and offers a fractional improvement mechanic.)
I don't know this Prestige Bard class you mentioned, but I believe you are saying it is a 10 level PrC, of which 7 levels gain new spells and 3 do not. Is that correct?
If so, then the next question is this: Even if you do not gain new spells that level, does your Caster Level still increase? In other words, by the time you are done with the class, do you ordinarily get 7 levels worth of new spells, which you cast at 10th level? Or do you only cast them at 7th level? The way we've always played PrCs that skip a level here and there when acquiring new spells is that your caster level with the spells you've already got still increase on those "off levels". I'm not sure if that was the official way to handle such PrCs or if Caster Level is only supposed to increase when "Spell's Known" increases. Does someone know the official answer on this?
Anyway, if we were doing it right and CL increaees even if Spells Known did not, then there's no problem, the class counts for full CL with its own spell type classes.
If not, then I'd say those levels that provide a CL count for full, and the remaining levels count for 1/2. (Which would mean after 10 levels you'd have ACL of 8).
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Oh, I also wanted to mention that this change is not meant to replace Practiced Spellcasting, but in addition to it. Currently, characters get only 1 Feat every 4 levels (outside of class feats). They should not need to spend all or most of those Feats on Practiced Spellcasting just to keep up with their character level. This rule would mean they'd need the feat far less... even 1 time may be enough to take them up to full character level if they are a 50/50 split below 17th level. (A Fighter 8/Wizard 8 would naturally get ACL 12, and the 1 Feat would make him ACL 16, though he'd still only be able to cast the spells of an 8th level Wizard...)
I think the easy patch is better "prestige" classes for caster hybrids. The two problems with current prestige-class solutions are the dead space before you can start acting like a real multiclassed character and the ten-level structure means you need to find another hybrid prestige class.
For the first, a class which can be taken for the third character level does reasonably well; combined with something like the original 3e "1st level multiclass characters", it gives you a hybrid character from level 1. For the second, giving the hybrid prestige class between fifteen and eighteen non-prestige levels fits.
I like the OP's idea. It's clean, simple, and effective.
The problem with this idea is that it can make multi-class dipping into caster classes an issue. A 12th monk takes a one level dip in wizard to wear mage armor all day (because half his monk levels count toward caster level) and picks up Ray of Enfeeblement and Magic Missile as well (both at very high effectiveness).
It also introduces a spell 'pop' mechanic. If the 12th level fighter takes 1 level of wizard at 13th level but counts half his fighter levels toward CL then he is instantly casting CL 7 spells.
--[snip]--
A 13th level character with the spells known and per day of a 1st level wizard with a caster level of 7 doesn't seem super powerful to me. I'm fairly certain a full attack from a 12th level fighter out damages a magic missle cast as a 7th level caster.
Does it make logical sense to suddenly wield that kind of spell power late in your career? No. I'd say not. But I'd also say its not much more illogical than suddenly gaining ranger 1 and learning a favored enemy out of the blue with no previous training. Or if you like expansions and splat books, how about taking level 1 of OA samurai and your 13th level character suddenly has an ancestral heirloom weapon that has been in the family for years. The point is, it's not outside of the realm of credibility for DnD and it could be explained off by a backstory between the player and the DM. Perhaps this particular character takes a level of sorcerer instead of wizard and suddenly unlocks some sort of dormant arcane bloodline. In fact, that particular possibility is kinda similar to the Slayer storyline of the Baldur's Gate series (cept the MC suddenly became part demon, but oh well =) ).
I pose that DnD in general has a certain amount of "leap of faith" to it. It is a fantasy game after all. I also think that the designers of the rules have to place a certain amount of inherent trust in the DM and player's to smooth out some of the illogical side effects of the mechanics.
IMO always =)
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But the thing is, even multiclassed characters ARE ONE PERSON!
Class skills become "characer skills", BAB increases too, so why not caster level (I knew spell level wasn't the right term but I strangely forgot caster level).And with the new columns it's going much way easier.
No need for Prestige classes mixing +1 caster level and +1 spellcasting level in the same column.If this sort of thing is allowed, why not have something similar for ALL major class abilities, like sneak attack or turning. Defending oneself is something ALL classes SHOULD be able to do. The same cannot be said (IMHO) for casting, nor for any other class ability.
I understand that a warrior-mage is VERY iconic, but I think it could be done better as 20 level class.
However, as I posted already, I think caster levels should stack in some way when multiclassing multiple caster classes.
IMO, classes should have some things that grow inherently with the character, and other things that are specific to the class. Learning new Fighter Feats is a class feature of Fighters, but gaining BAB is an inherent thing, no matter what class they take, but it happens at a slower rate for non-martial classes. Similarly, the Rogue has certain class abilities (backstab, etc) and some things like skills that still grow when taking another class.
Spellcasters need the same thing... their spells known is something that only grows by taking the class, but their caster level (the amount of raw power they can draw on, which is gained with experience) should grow naturally, albeit at a slower pace when not taking classes that cast the same type of spells.
By itself, I don't think it truly balances out a spellcaster who decides to multiclass... they are still getting the short end of the stick, IMO. But at least this helps to tip the scale a bit more in the direction of fairness.
I'm pretty sure that this would nuke backwards compatibility into the ground.
And I really don't think so. What does it change? The caster level of multiclassed characters. And that only to a certain degree.
I really don't see why this would be unbalancing or screwing BWC.
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I'm pretty sure that this would nuke backwards compatibility into the ground.
Not at all... like Draco said, it doesn't alter anything that has come before. The only change is that if you see a multiclassed spellcaster in an adventure somewhere, their Caster Level will be a little higher. They have no additional spells, powers, or alterations beyond that. You really can't get more compatible than that and still try to fix things. The Sorcerers Bloodlines and Wizard Specialties being introduced will require far more work than this change.
...The Sorcerers Bloodlines and Wizard Specialties being introduced will require far more work than this change.
SOOOO true... That's why I am not that fond about the new specialist and domain abilities. But that's another topic not to discuss here.
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The practiced spellcaster feats aren't OGL, unless you know of a source for them that I don't. While I agree with your suggestion, unfortunately it cannot be implemented in 3.Pai. Also, I would certainly agree that increasing spell acquisition is a bad, bad idea. Just the CL - any class that doesn't already directly add to an existing CL adds a reduced amount to it.
Saying it cant be implemented is a bit short sighted, It wouldn't be too hard to create a new feat that duplicates the intent of practiced spellcaster, kind of like Sneaksydragons feat.
Also I personally think that practiced spellcaster is one of the most important feats that has appeared in addressing multiclassing and it would be a shame for Paizo not to include it as a part of the core books. Its far more backwards compatible than adding CL progression to every single class.
On a side note has anyone considered the effect adding CL to non-spellcasting classes has on spell-like abilities? say I'm playing a Tiefling, my CL for darkness is equal to my character level, class level, caster level or something else? I know the entry says class levels but having multiple caster levels for different abilities not tied to a specific class can cause a lot of confusion. I could see an argument siding that if every class has a CL then surely spell-likes from race should use that instead? just a thought
On a side note has anyone considered the effect adding CL to non-spellcasting classes has on spell-like abilities? say I'm playing a Tiefling, my CL for darkness is equal to my character level, class level, caster level or something else? I know the entry says class levels but having multiple caster levels for different abilities not tied to a specific class can cause a lot of confusion. I could see an argument siding that if every class has a CL then surely spell-likes from race should use that instead? just a thought
I seem to remember somewhere that had an NPC who was like a MindFlayer who had a level of psion that they added to the natural races psionics to make an effective 13th or 14th level psion who was really a mindflayer +1 class level. Something about his "natural" psion levels were added to his trained levels, so there president for it. And I seem to remember some Drow book that mentioned this for the natural abilities of a drow as well (effect level for say levitation is equal to character level).
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Wasn't something very similar done in Unearthed Arcana?
They gave all full casters (including the Bard) a 1/1 Caster Level/Level, half casters and the Monk (?) were given 1/2 and non-casters were 1/4.
So a Fighter 4/Wizard 7 would have a Caster Level of 8 but the spell selection of a 7th level wizard.
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Here's a thought - Practiced Spellcaster is non-OGL, but how about this as a backwards-compatable fix?
FEAT: SPELL DABBLER
- prerequisite caster level 3rd
- choose one spellcasting class, and add 1/3 of your non-spellcasting levels to your caster level, and effective level for spells known
FEAT: SPELL ADEPT
- prerequisites caster level 6th, Spell Dabbler
- choose one spellcasting class, and add 1/2 of your non-spellcasting levels to your caster level, and effective level for spells known
I think that the progression from the Book of 9 Swords would work fine for spellcasters. Basically, caster level equals caster level from main casting class, plus 1/2 all other classes. If you have multiple casting classes, they also count as only 1/2 towards each other.
So:
Wiz 4/Ftr 4 = casts at 6th level caster
Wiz 6/Clr 4/Ftr 4 = casts as 10th level wizard/9th level cleric
This is the way I would handle things if someone wanted to play a multiclass caster in one of my games, but I'm a fan of sword-mages and holy-assassins.
The rule being outlined here is simple, elegant, and, unfortunately, far too easy to abuse, in my opinion. Think of it this way: if I can take levels in other classes and get free spellcasting to go with them, I'll give every rogue a level of wizard from now on, and every fighter a level of cleric or sorcerer. The world will be full of cleric 2/fighter 18 characters, and wizard 2/rogue 18s. The -1 to BAB doesn't come close to steering me away from all that free spellcasting. No one WON'T have a level of spellcasting. That would work for a highly-magical homebrew world, but it goes against the basic model of D&D.
Overall, there are a lot of existing PrC's that give multiclass caster options. Some of them are quite lame (bladesinger and spellsword should give 7/10, not 5/10 for example) -- I won't argue that -- but some of them do exactly what they're intended to do (mystic theurge). OK, maybe eldrtich knight needs a boost in HD, too, but overall, the system in place works OK.
The way we've always played PrCs that skip a level here and there when acquiring new spells is that your caster level with the spells you've already got still increase on those "off levels".
That probably works quite well as a houserule -- I like the idea -- but officially, on levels with no increase listed you get no new spells and no free bump to caster level, either.
P.S.: The prestige bard is in the system reference document. The prestige ranger and prestige paladin are worth a look as well.
The rule being outlined here is simple, elegant, and, unfortunately, far too easy to abuse, in my opinion. Think of it this way: if I can take levels in other classes and get free spellcasting to go with them, I'll give every rogue a level of wizard from now on, and every fighter a level of cleric or sorcerer. The world will be full of cleric 2/fighter 18 characters, and wizard 2/rogue 18s. The -1 to BAB doesn't come close to steering me away from all that free spellcasting. No one WON'T have a level of spellcasting. That would work for a highly-magical homebrew world, but it goes against the basic model of D&D.
Are 6th level spells really that useful for 20th level characters? I'm asking an honest question here, my games rarely go beyond 10th level, so I don't know how unbalanced these combinations could get.
Are 6th level spells really that useful for 20th level characters? I'm asking an honest question here, my games rarely go beyond 10th level, so I don't know how unbalanced these combinations could get.
I find that the whole game sometimes gets a bit wonky above 15th or so, so you're probably smart just going to 10th +/-. 6th level spells, if there's a moderate price tag (e.g., give up some of your bonus feats, if your a fighter, or sneak attack damage if you're a rogue, etc.) are just fine. Balanced or not, though, I really quibble with stacking them on top of a full progression in another class -- I don't subscribe to the "something for nothing" theory, and I don't think that every character should be able to do everything. Maybe that's a personal preference, but the game isn't much fun to me if I can get all the skills or feats, all the combat ability, and then add a bunch of free spellcasting levels to boot without having to give anything up for it. I like to build a character, and mull over whether an extra level of spellcasting is really worth giving up some other class feature I also want, rather than just get instant gratification.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I had a thought for the issue of a 12th level fighter taking a level of wizard and suddenly casting spells as a 7th level caster. It's a bit more work to keep track of, but what about only counting other classes as 1/2 level for levels taken AFTER you have a spellcasting class. This will still let a 12th Ftr/1 Wiz cast spells as a 7th level wizard, but only if you take your 1st level as wizard.
If you take wizard at level 13, you're a 1st level caster - if you then add 6 more fighter levels, you're a 4th level caster.
Thoughts?