I'm putting together an adventure that involves a succubus disguised as an elf. In looking at the possibilities, it occurs to me that the Unnatural Beauty ability of an elf could use some clarification. Is it based purely on physical looks, or is there some mystic nature about elves? If it's the former, then the succubus should be able to gain the ability just by using her change shape ability. Moreover, anyone with a Disguise Self spell or even a high Disguise skill should be able to get the benefits, since they can easily copy an elf's beauty.
My interpretation is that it's something innate about elves that goes beyond physical beauty -- a sort of aura. However, that also raises questions, such as whether another race disguised as an elf would have a harder time blending in among elves due to the fact that they lack the unnatural beauty. In game terms, an elf might look at the succubus and get the feeling that something doesn't seem quite right, although he can't put his finger on it.
I think the ability is a good one, and fits with elves of fantasy stories. However, it should probably clarified so as to eliminate some of this gray area.
You raise very good points, and as there are clearly tangible consequences one way or another, it would be nice to have this very flavorful ability clarified a little more.
In my campaigns, I don't assume Charisma is automatically equivalent to physical beauty... An elf could be unnaturally beautiful, but at the same time be an arrogant, pompous jerk.
I see Charisma more as the effect your personality, stance, mannerisms and personal magnetism have on others, how are you perceived by other folk. Sometimes, beautiful people are really insufferable past that first look, and people not very handsome are really nice and charming, and make you want to have a long conversation with him or her.
So, the unnatural beauty of an elf would take care of those initial reactions, but anything deeper would rely on the elf's charisma.
In short, I'm not in favor of giving elves bonuses to charisma, based only in their physical beauty. Elves have (at least in my campaign world) an otherworldly aura, a strange mystique that is perfectly explained by the unnatural beauty racial ability.
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I guess I just don't like the unnatural beauty aspect because it's so subjective. I wouldn't see it apply to an elves impact on dwarves or orcs. Charisma was thrown out there, because charisma can include beauty. Besides, I would think that an elf's elegance, poise, and grace would go beyond just surface complexion.
I view it as 'idoru'. In the words of someone else, you should never attempt to meet your idols. Realizing that they are human is a crushing blow to your spirit.
Sure, elves LOOK like graceful forest sprites. Surely something that harmonious-looking must be friendly and kind, the soul of all goodness. In my campaigns, the Unnatural Beauty doesn't work on people who have been hosed over by the elves. (From RotRL, the goblins, the Kaijutsu family, etc. I even had the garbage collector get WORSE because of the torment he's suffered for HIS looks.)
I think my view was tarnished by Escalla the Fairy from TSR's novel series. Just wondering how foolish people would be to fall for that 'sylvan creatures are all good and harmless' line. But here it is, called Unnatural Beauty and sponsored by Paizo.
I just think they added that without having ever had a rampaging Bard or Advocate (From Spycraft) loose in their campaign. Think how easy Burnt Offerings becomes when the Diplomacy specialist motivates all the high level NPCs into solving the adventure. The PCs coast behind, earning Wrath points for using coup de grace on mangled goblin heroes, and possibly wracking up Envy. Sure, they get less XP by far, but look how easy it becomes.
Then you have the people without Diplomacy skill who try to pull the same emotional strings. But this is wandering from the topic, so I'll stop meandering now. I personally feel the automatic shift PLUS diplomacy is too much social power, potentially unbalancing the game.
In my campaigns, the Unnatural Beauty doesn't work on people who have been hosed over by the elves.
Just as a point of clarification, wouldn't people who have been hosed over by the elves most likely have an attitude of unfriendly or hostile towards elves to begin with and thus be unaffected by their unnatural beauty anyway? I mean, by PF RPG RAW, it only works on people who are indifferent or better already.
Saurstalk, wouldn't dwarves tend to have a natural disposition of unfriendly toward elves given their huge cultural diffeneces and wouldn't orcs be hostile? So once again, unnatural beauty would never come into play.
I NEVER EVER liked the idea that Elves are better/prettier humans.
That's a phenomenon from our days society: Wanting women be tall, thin, with great eyes and small lips, blabla.
In a medieval world those Elves are: "All that skinny, and lack a nice round ass and big boops to cover your face in - har har!"
Hope you know what I mean.
My interpretation is that it's something innate about elves that goes beyond physical beauty -- a sort of aura.
Anything to make elves more like Pratchett elves is approved by me! There, they have aura to spare.
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamourous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
Of course, an utterly evil race of sadistic fey creatures doesn't work well as a standard player race, but a bit of that glammer could wash off to their Golarian brethren.
I NEVER EVER liked the idea that Elves are better/prettier humans.
Doesn't say better. And doesn't say that they're just humans but with more pretty.
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Actually, this is one of the new special qualities of the races that I hope gets dropped. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and something like this can simply be covered with a +2 to Cha instead.
I love it -- in my opinion it's one of the most innovative things about the races in PF. Why? Because it gives *all* elves (regardless of their CHA score) a quality that simply cannot be replaced with a flat bonus to Charisma. Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but nobody thinks an elf with CHA 6 or 8 (with the +2 bonus like you suggested) would be "beautiful" (naturally or unnaturally). 'Unnatural Beauty' is meant to make elves seem more "fey" and "otherworldly" and "awe-inpiring" without ab "overkill" like +6 to CHA (since +2 wouldn't be enough, right?).
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I NEVER EVER liked the idea that Elves are better/prettier humans.
That's a phenomenon from our days society: Wanting women be tall, thin, with great eyes and small lips, blabla.In a medieval world those Elves are: "All that skinny, and lack a nice round ass and big boops to cover your face in - har har!"
Hope you know what I mean.
Uh, I think that's rather because elves in D&D are modeled after Tolkien's elves and not because of our modern standards of beauty.
Well, two things to keep in mind here with the ability...
1) The approached individual must have a starting reation of "indifferent" to the elf. Which by no means is going to be guaranteed, depending on the situation.
2) Even then, the encounter and when this ability is applicable, is still under the DM's perview.
I personally don't have a problem with the ability at all, in fact I think this ability would synergize quite well with the Bard class.
I am not in favor of Unnatural Beauty as it is written. In general, it provides a +10 modifier to Diplomacy checks when dealing with Indifferent or better attitudes (a one category shift). This means, a friendly NPC is always helpful to an elf. As such, an elf could get a friendly target to give dangerous aid by taking 10 on the Diplomacy check. I can see all kinds of abuse from this, enough that I could see elves quickly getting a con-artist reputation and not being trusted.
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I am not in favor of Unnatural Beauty as it is written. In general, it provides a +10 modifier to Diplomacy checks when dealing with Indifferent or better attitudes (a one category shift). This means, a friendly NPC is always helpful to an elf. As such, an elf could get a friendly target to give dangerous aid by taking 10 on the Diplomacy check. I can see all kinds of abuse from this, enough that I could see elves quickly getting a con-artist reputation and not being trusted.
How is this any different from PCs who max-out Diplomacy? There is always room for abuse, especially with Enchantment spells or Psionics ("Why don't you just hand over that magic item?") so if we want to eliminate any such "manipulation" potential from the game, we need to start with eliminating all mind-affecting spells and effects first.
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I am not in favor of Unnatural Beauty as it is written. In general, it provides a +10 modifier to Diplomacy checks when dealing with Indifferent or better attitudes (a one category shift). This means, a friendly NPC is always helpful to an elf. As such, an elf could get a friendly target to give dangerous aid by taking 10 on the Diplomacy check. I can see all kinds of abuse from this, enough that I could see elves quickly getting a con-artist reputation and not being trusted.
Correction: it gives a +10 bonus to Diplomacy checks for characters who are already friendly - i.e., the people for whom you need it just about the least. It gives a +5 bonus when dealing with people who are indifferent, and nothing at all when dealing with people who are unfriendly, hostile or (interestingly) helpful.
Also, as was just pointed out, this doesn't really change things from how they are for everyone else. A target who is friendly can be made helpful with a DC 10 Diplomacy check - as you say, assuming the GM allows the character to take 10 on the check, they can be made helpful with no chance of failure, and then the same requests can be made that you said before. This changes very little.
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In my campaigns, I don't assume Charisma is automatically equivalent to physical beauty... An elf could be unnaturally beautiful, but at the same time be an arrogant, pompous jerk.
I see Charisma more as the effect your personality, stance, mannerisms and personal magnetism have on others, how are you perceived by other folk. Sometimes, beautiful people are really insufferable past that first look, and people not very handsome are really nice and charming, and make you want to have a long conversation with him or her.
So, the unnatural beauty of an elf would take care of those initial reactions, but anything deeper would rely on the elf's charisma.
In short, I'm not in favor of giving elves bonuses to charisma, based only in their physical beauty. Elves have (at least in my campaign world) an otherworldly aura, a strange mystique that is perfectly explained by the unnatural beauty racial ability.
In my campaigns I tend to revert back to 1st Edition AD & D, I still have those old books, so I simply pull out the old Unearthed Arcana and in the beginning is the Comliness Ability, which completely and ONLY describes a characters physical beauty. Certain races gain negatives or bonuses, and Cha effects it as well, as someone can be beautifull but once they open their mouths they get real ugly. I can easily provide the rules if any need it, I had to type it up for my players to all have access to it.
I think it's a good system, or additional ability score.
I think charima does this already, its not necessary to break it down for physical appearence. The persons charima as a whole is what matters anyway. ugly people with high charisma are charming, and bueatiful people with low charisma are jerks, this can also go the other way depending on the score.
So I am fine with things as they are, and dont see the need for another score to be tracked.
Correction: it gives a +10 bonus to Diplomacy checks for characters who are already friendly - i.e., the people for whom you need it just about the least. It gives a +5 bonus when dealing with people who are indifferent, and nothing at all when dealing with people who are unfriendly, hostile or (interestingly) helpful.
Also, as was just pointed out, this doesn't really change things from how they are for everyone else. A target who is friendly can be made helpful with a DC 10 Diplomacy check - as you say, assuming the GM allows the character to take 10 on the check, they can be made helpful with no chance of failure, and then the same requests can be made that you said before. This changes very little.
You are correct. I did not catch myself there.
How is this any different from PCs who max-out Diplomacy? There is always room for abuse, especially with Enchantment spells or Psionics ("Why don't you just hand over that magic item?") so if we want to eliminate any such "manipulation" potential from the game, we need to start with eliminating all mind-affecting spells and effects first.
Just because a system can be abused does not mean we should create additional ways for it to be abused. An elf with 0 ranks in Diplomacy and a 10 Charisma can talk a friendly target into giving dangerous aid by taking 10 on the Diplomacy check.
As this racial ability is writen, elves should have a massive reputation as con artists. People who are "indifferent" are considered "friendly" to elves. Take 10, and the are helpful. At this point the target can be talked into possibly risking their lives to help the elf, or at least offering a good discount of gear because the need is so great.
It looks like this trait has been dropped in the newest release.
It looks like this trait has been dropped in the newest release.
Huh? What new release? Have I missed anything?
Edit: I HAVE. How did they sneak that past me?