I looked at building a mounted character for the first time in a few years and noticed a bunch of subtle buff between Treasure Vault, Player Core, and GM Core. Under the original core rulebook lances were awkward.
1. You lost reach when riding a large mount.
2. The lance was never the best possible weapon for any given situation because it was an ok weapon in so many different situations. There was no way to leverage all its traits at the same time.
3. Actually switching between those situations required spending extra actions grabbing your shield or gripping the lance two handed on top of the action to mount.
These problems haven't entirely gone away but have gotten much better.
Treasure Vault
War Lance
Trades reach for parry and shove. Parry is a weird trait for a weapon you want to use a shield with, and shove is niche. (Unless you're fighting other riders and can knock them prone.) But you already lost the reach when mounted, and it matters even less with the next thing...
Harnessed Shield
While you have the shield raised, you can gain the jousting benefit of a weapon as if you were mounted. Because a significant portion of the weapon needs to be braced behind the shield, the weapon's reach is reduced by 5 feet if it is greater than 5 feet.
This is the centerpiece of the power creep. You trade reach on foot (if you ever had it.) But you wind up being able to leverage everything else about the lance on foot and on horseback. You can shield block while wielding a d8 weapon with deadly d8 and an effective damage size bump after moving. With GM Core's reinforcing rune for shields, you can scale this to full sturdy proportions. I think you can still use a shield boss and doubling rings for bludgeoning damage. I think technically you can use Everhand Stance too.
You're a bit below a true two hander weapon for damage, but deadly and jousting get you pretty close. The only thing you really miss out on are specific magical shield options. I think most players will gladly take that trade. But if you don't like it...
Player Core
Updated Jousting Trait now allows you to switch your grip on the weapon as part of the action to mount or unmount. You still need to spend an action to draw a shield, unfortunately, and would still drop your damage dice to d6. But it lets you use specific shields while mounted. I think there might also be some interesting shenanigans with a second lance. I haven't quite figured out if you can apply the jousting damage and horse support benefit to both hits in a Double Slice... But it seems worth exploring.
Cap sorry but almost nothing significant change.
War Lance is an uncommon weapon with "Knights of Lastwall have access to this weapon" as access. It's not a TV item. But I agree due the restriction of reach while mounted make sense to use this weapon once that reach trait in normal lances is useless.
The main point of War Lances IMO is it Parry trait that allows you to use the full d8 damage dice and use an action to get +1 into AC and when used when mounted in a horse if you move 10ft with the horse and use its support you algo get a +2 per weapon dice whats effectively turns the War Lances with an avg dmg of a d12 + deadly d8.
But when used with shields its works like a normal lance that can also Shove.
Harnessed don't make difference while mounted just allows to use the lance in justing mode (what reduces the damage dice to d6) while not mounted.
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While you have the shield raised, you can gain the jousting benefit of a weapon as if you were mounted. Because a significant portion of the weapon needs to be braced behind the shield, the weapon's reach is reduced by 5 feet if it is greater than 5 feet.
The weapon is suited for mounted combat with a harness or similar means. When mounted, if you moved at least 10 feet on the action before your attack, add a circumstance bonus to damage for that attack equal to the number of damage dice for the weapon. In addition, while mounted, you can wield the weapon in one hand, changing the damage die to the listed value.
In practice if your are mounted it's better to just use the Sturdy Shields normally with the lances.
In practice lances just allows mounted players to get a dmg similar to d10 (d6 +2 circumstance per weapon dmg dice) + d8 deadly when using with shield risen when mounted in a horse. It's not bad if we consider that this combination is basically impossible with other weapons (there's no d10 one handed weapon specially with deadly trait).
The main problem of mounted chars isn't about dmg IMO but about the fact due balance factors the designers restricted to get reach benefit while mounted in a large creature whats creates that strange interaction of small creatures mounted in medium sized creatures have a more safest reach than medium sized creatures mounted in large creatures.
To quote the words of the Great Mighty Kevin:
"Great, how marginally better is that!"
Sorry cap but I'm with morgan on this one, this is a very contrived way to put a patch on a pretty bad mechanic. I'm happy for you if you find it satisfying but I'm havin a very hard time to find this exciting in the least xD
I see the improvements and they are real. Thanks for highlighting them.
It is still a fail on flavour grounds. Lances were all about striking first(reach) and charge impact. It is just not close at all yet.
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Good call on the War Lance book. Still, being uncommon isn't that big a deal. "Access" isn't a prerequisite, and every GM I know tends fo default to allowing uncommon picks.
I also agree with y'all that losing reach still stinks, particularly from a flavor perspective. I didn't say jousting was great or fixed completely, I just said it was better than it used to be.
The main point of War Lances IMO is it Parry trait that allows you to use the full d8 damage dice and use an action to get +1 into AC and when used when mounted in a horse if you move 10ft with the horse and use its support you algo get a +2 per weapon dice whats effectively turns the War Lances with an avg dmg of a d12 + deadly d8.
But when used with shields its works like a normal lance that can also Shove.
The horse support is not a unique advantage to the lance. You could use a great axe or bastard sword instead and still get the 2 damage per dice bonus on top of an actual d12. The bonus damage from jousting is the only thing which actually raises your damage profile compared to other weapons.
You also ignored the first paragraph of harnessed:
"You can Interact to lock a weapon with the jousting trait in place in the shield, enabling you to use two hands to wield the shield and weapon simultaneously. If you're not wielding the combined unit with both hands, you can use neither the weapon nor the shield."
This means you can maintain your full base damage and utilize your shield while not mounted. Being able to get the jousting charge damage on foot is just icing; it is strictly worse than having a d8 damage dice all the time instead of a d6.
Yeah, you still don't get reach... But you now get better damage than any other sword and board setup I can come up with outside of the odd falacata build. Prior to this, the lance was worse than a glaive on foot, worse than a bastard sword when riding and two handing, and only better than a one handed bastard sword one handed if you were charging. The set up finally has a niche, even if it isn't the one we wanted.
Slight correction: After looking closer at the reinforcing rune, I realized you can't upgrade ANY shield to an equivalent sturdy shield. The equivalent values are maximum amounts, but they add fixed numbers to the existing shield. A Reinforcing Harnessed Shield will still be a bit behind sturdy shields. So using a specific shield (including sturdy) and dropping your damageremains a valid option. But then you can't use the shield on foot and lose actions drawing the shield when mounting. It's better balanced than I first thought, but still leaves you with no way to leverage all of the lances advantages (sans reach) at once.
Harnessed Shield does seem strictly better than using the Parry trait on a warlance, though, if you can afford the extra bulk.
"You can Interact to lock a weapon with the jousting trait in place in the shield, enabling you to use two hands to wield the shield and weapon simultaneously. If you're not wielding the combined unit with both hands, you can use neither the weapon nor the shield."
This means you can maintain your full base damage and utilize your shield while not mounted. Being able to get the jousting charge damage on foot is just icing; it is strictly worse than having a d8 damage dice all the time instead of a d6.
Unfortunately I don't that this works this way. Because in the paragraph below it mentions that if you Rise a Shield you get the effect of "you can gain the jousting benefit of a weapon as if you were mounted" what's means that you apply all the Jousting effects including the reduction in dice size.
This shield features a special brace or opening designed to hold lances or other jousting weapons. Jousters often use these shields as a backup in narrow passages and other places where they're unable to ride a mount. You can Interact to lock a weapon with the jousting trait in place in the shield, enabling you to use two hands to wield the shield and weapon simultaneously. If you're not wielding the combined unit with both hands, you can use neither the weapon nor the shield.
While you have the shield raised, you can gain the jousting benefit of a weapon as if you were mounted. Because a significant portion of the weapon needs to be braced behind the shield, the weapon's reach is reduced by 5 feet if it is greater than 5 feet.
The other point that makes me to believe that works in this way is the initial description of the shield as "Jousters often use these shields as a backup in narrow passages and other places where they're unable to ride a mount". The text don't mention that this shield was developed to help you to improve your efficiency in a horse. That's why I believe that the second paragraph applies when you are mounted too. I don't think that this shield was made to improve the mounted lance benefits.
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"You can Interact to lock a weapon with the jousting trait in place in the shield, enabling you to use two hands to wield the shield and weapon simultaneously. If you're not wielding the combined unit with both hands, you can use neither the weapon nor the shield."
This means you can maintain your full base damage and utilize your shield while not mounted. Being able to get the jousting charge damage on foot is just icing; it is strictly worse than having a d8 damage dice all the time instead of a d6.
Unfortunately I don't that this works this way. Because in the paragraph below it mentions that if you Rise a Shield you get the effect of "you can gain the jousting benefit of a weapon as if you were mounted" what's means that you apply all the Jousting effects including the reduction in dice size.
The other point that makes me to believe that works in this way is the initial description of the shield as "Jousters often use these shields as a backup in narrow passages and other places where they're unable to ride a mount". The text don't mention that this shield was developed to...This shield features a special brace or opening designed to hold lances or other jousting weapons. Jousters often use these shields as a backup in narrow passages and other places where they're unable to ride a mount. You can Interact to lock a weapon with the jousting trait in place in the shield, enabling you to use two hands to wield the shield and weapon simultaneously. If you're not wielding the combined unit with both hands, you can use neither the weapon nor the shield.
While you have the shield raised, you can gain the jousting benefit of a weapon as if you were mounted. Because a significant portion of the weapon needs to be braced behind the shield, the weapon's reach is reduced by 5 feet if it is greater than 5 feet.
That reading doesn't track.
A. It says you get the "benefit" of the jousting trait, not the "effect".
B. Even if we are applying the full effect, the jousting trait doesn't lower your damage dice when two handing a lance while mounted. It remains a d8 weapon when wielded in two hands while mounted, and therefore remains a d8 weapon when wielded in two hands here.
C. Even if both of the above are wrong, the paragraph about jousting only applies when you have the shield raised. You can just attack twice before raising your shield.
I agree with Captain Morgan on this one. If I'm on a horse and choose to use my Lance or War Lance two handed, I still get the circumstance bonus to damage if I move 10 feet or more. It's only if I willingly use it one-handed that my die size is lowered. With 2 hands, it's stil a d8 weapon.
The Harness just lets you also get the circumstance bonus by moving 10 feet if you previously raise your shield while on foot, without needing a horse. And because it requires 2 Hands to use, I retain my d8 die.
It's not...super amazing by any means but it is a pretty nice buff.
I think the more significant buff for the harnessed shield in actual play will be the action economy of switching between the different modes of use.
I'm feeling less thrilled about the remastered change to the jousting trait upon further reflection. Releasing a hand is already a free action, so going down to one handed as part of mounting doesn't seem to matter. I'd consider house ruling the free action grip change be applied to grabbing a shield when you mount. Switching back to two handed as part of the dismount would be better, but I don't think I've ever seen someone use an action to dismount in combat. Leaving the saddle is always against your will because you are knocked off or your mount is knocked out.
I personally think Jousting is at its best with a lance wielding ruffian rogue from a small ancestry. It is among the weapons with the highest damage potential for the class, has reach for bigger Gang Up returns and rogue can fit an AC really well in its action economy (Gang up also gives you an on-demand off-guard if you go at 5ft distance from an enemy).
The upgrades you mentioned are alright, but I think remasterd rogue was the biggest of them all.
Never thought of that, but I can see the appeal.
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I personally think Jousting is at its best with a lance wielding ruffian rogue from a small ancestry. It is among the weapons with the highest damage potential for the class, has reach for bigger Gang Up returns and rogue can fit an AC really well in its action economy (Gang up also gives you an on-demand off-guard if you go at 5ft distance from an enemy).
The upgrades you mentioned are alright, but I think remasterd rogue was the biggest of them all.
Even the ruffian rogue REALLY wants sneak attack and that is going to be fairly difficult to consistently achieve with mounted combat.
But you're right, it would make for a quite interesting character. Especially if they got the animal companion through the Cavalier Archetype which lets them get Quick Mount which would certainly greatly help them.
I personally think Jousting is at its best with a lance wielding ruffian rogue from a small ancestry. It is among the weapons with the highest damage potential for the class, has reach for bigger Gang Up returns and rogue can fit an AC really well in its action economy (Gang up also gives you an on-demand off-guard if you go at 5ft distance from an enemy).
The upgrades you mentioned are alright, but I think remasterd rogue was the biggest of them all.
Even the ruffian rogue REALLY wants sneak attack and that is going to be fairly difficult to consistently achieve with mounted combat.
Why? The new gang up makes it super easy and you have a higher speed which can help setup flanking. A large mount might run into small map problems, but even they have can flank from more squares at once. With a medium mount it just seems easier to me.
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Why? The new gang up makes it super easy and you have a higher speed which can help setup flanking. A large mount might run into small map problems, but even they have can flank from more squares at once. With a medium mount it just seems easier to me.
Even the ruffian rogue REALLY wants sneak attack and that is going to be fairly difficult to consistently achieve with mounted combat.
You're quite right, at least from level 6 on.
I'd momentarily forgotten Gang Up for some reason.
It still hurts one of the cavaliers traditional roles which is to go into the back to gank the squishy caster but that isn't all that great a tactic in PF2 anyway (they just don't make squishies like they used to :-) :-))
I personally think Jousting is at its best with a lance wielding ruffian rogue from a small ancestry. It is among the weapons with the highest damage potential for the class, has reach for bigger Gang Up returns and rogue can fit an AC really well in its action economy (Gang up also gives you an on-demand off-guard if you go at 5ft distance from an enemy).
The upgrades you mentioned are alright, but I think remasterd rogue was the biggest of them all.
Hmm so a 1d6 Martial weapon as long as they use it one handed they are OK.
It still hurts one of the cavaliers traditional roles which is to go into the back to gank the squishy caster
What's the issue, you just flank with your mount (with Gang Up).
I personally think Jousting is at its best with a lance wielding ruffian rogue from a small ancestry. It is among the weapons with the highest damage potential for the class, has reach for bigger Gang Up returns and rogue can fit an AC really well in its action economy (Gang up also gives you an on-demand off-guard if you go at 5ft distance from an enemy).
The upgrades you mentioned are alright, but I think remasterd rogue was the biggest of them all.
if you are a small boy you can have any martial class and have the lance be nice. Be ye a fighter (crits galore) a barbarian (sbonk) a precision ranger (smaller sbonk) or thaumaturge (weird sbonk), ye will be allright. Not so much for medium sized ones
The reach and large mount interaction is unfortunate. I get why it is the way it is, at least at low levels. I just wish you could get around it later on via a feat or anything. Large mounts are already inconvenient a lot of the time without factoring in the reach thing.
Also small creature mounting a medium creature only works up to level 3 once the starting from level 4 you usually needs to get a mature companion feat to avoid it to become too weak as the levels rises.
The only alternative that I see to this is a sprite riding a corgi once that your mount is your familiar not your companion so its size doesn't increases and its defaults stats is based in your stats (basically it have same AC + item bonus as you have and same saves of you but using your spellcasting atribute instead the normal atributes).
It also allows you to get the same land speed of a horse using Fast Movement.
If you take the familiar improvement feats like Familiar Master Archetype feats you can also improve your corgi resistance improving its HP with Tough and/or sharing your HP with Lifelink, improves one of it saves (usually reflexes) with Damage Avoidance and gives one energy type immunity (usually fire that is the most common energy damage) and immunity to bleed, paralyzed, poison, sleep with the combination of resistance with elemental familiar abilities.
The only problem of this mount build is that you must use a reach weapon (because the default reach of sprites is 0) or a range weapon (yet its not too different from large mounts at all) and don't work with independent familiar ability.
Well curiously the champion steed ally doesn't get independent too for some unknown reason (that's the main reason that usually is better to take Cavalier archetype with champions than take a companion via steed ally).
Also small creature mounting a medium creature only works up to level 3 once the starting from level 4 you usually needs to get a mature companion feat to avoid it to become too weak as the levels rises.
Medium Animal Companions are the rarity. I personally do it the other way around: Small Animal Companion that becomes my mount at level 4 once it gets Medium. So it's only 2 levels without being able to mount your AC, but these are also the levels where your AC doesn't have free actions (I generally mount my companion for free move actions).
Another solution is to go Cavalier with a Small Companion. Cavalier size increase interaction with Mature size increase is unclear and most GMs won't bat an eye if you replace one by the other for your Companion to stay Medium at level 4.
The problem is that you don't get Special mount ability with a small companion this restricts you from use its support abilities or non-land speed (but this usually is restricted to champions due it be a late game feat). Yet still an option.
I still miss the playtest version of the trait that didn't require you to be mounted to get the damage bonus.
Well good news, the harness shield lets you hack that. :)
Rogue also has ways to reduce the action economy and avoid needing a mount. Skirmish Strike allows a 1 action step and strike. That could be combined with a feat like the goblin scuttle that lets you step as a reaction to 'move 10ft' raise your shield and strike twice a turn. I feel like there must be a way to step 10 ft so you don't lose your reaction, but I can't think of it and my AON searches aren't turning up anything.
Elf step maybe?
That won't work. Its 1 action to step twice, but your step doesn't actually become 10 ft. The issue isn't the distance sinec you can almost always stride >10 ft. Its that you have 4 actions you need to do: Strike, Strike, Raise Shield, Move (10ft). So you need some kind of action economy compression feat even if it was raise shield + move, or strike + strike, or raise shield + strike, etc. Its just that skirmish strike is right in the base chassis so if there was a way to improve your step distance you wouldn't need any archetype.Rogue also has ways to reduce the action economy and avoid needing a mount. Skirmish Strike allows a 1 action step and strike. That could be combined with a feat like the goblin scuttle that lets you step as a reaction to 'move 10ft' raise your shield and strike twice a turn. I feel like there must be a way to step 10 ft so you don't lose your reaction, but I can't think of it and my AON searches aren't turning up anything.Elf step maybe?
Only way I know to increase step distance is Tiger Stance.
Not really, since you lose a damage die size and then when you move you get +1 per die... which is just the amount you lost using the shield.I still miss the playtest version of the trait that didn't require you to be mounted to get the damage bonus.Well good news, the harness shield lets you hack that. :)
You don't though, when you use the harness you're wielding the weapon with two hands. Damage stays d8, and you get the bonus to damage if you move 10' or more.
What you do lose though is Reach, but then you gain the use of the shield, which is otherwise impossible unmounted. Up to you if the tradeoff is worth it or not.
Again, one handing is an optional thing you can do while mounted. It's not an inherent constant of the jousting trait.
It's a little wild how hard people are working to keep lances from finally being good.
The harnessed trait itself excludes the option of going one-handed with the lance by stating that unless you are wielding the combined unit in both hands, you can't use either.
I also don't really get complaints about the lance. It's a one-handed reach 1d6 that hits like a 1d8 weapon once per round and has deadly d8 on top (a nice trait that not even any non-reach 1-handed d8 weapon has). I don't know a one-handed weapon that I'd rather use for a mounted character. Gnome Flickmace might have been a contender for the better crit spec, but probably not anymore after the remaster nerf. The rest of the one-handed reach weapons have really niche benefits in comparison.
Of course you don't take a large mount with it as to preserve the reach trait, but that's not so much the fault of the lance as it is one of the mounted combat rules.
I'll admit medium mounted lances are more or less fine, but that excludes THE iconic mount. I'm not even sure there are medium creatures with the mount trait.
There are several medium sized mounts... including the horse, since that entry is supposed to include ponies as well. Of course you still have the issue of all of these inevitably becoming large. Really wish size increases were more optional in PF2.
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I also don't really get complaints about the lance. It's a one-handed reach 1d6 that hits like a 1d8 weapon once per round and has deadly d8 on top (a nice trait that not even any non-reach 1-handed d8 weapon has). I don't know a one-handed weapon that I'd rather use for a mounted character. Gnome Flickmace might have been a contender for the better crit spec, but probably not anymore after the remaster nerf. The rest of the one-handed reach weapons have really niche benefits in comparison.Of course you don't take a large mount with it as to preserve the reach trait, but that's not so much the fault of the lance as it is one of the mounted combat rules.
As a weapon. The Lance is not terrible, it is about right to be interesting. However size medium creatures need a size large mount, which drops the reach trait, which then makes it a weapon for a tricky build like is being suggested here. A human on horse back is essential to many settings and Lance is a staple. But in this game it is just pathetic. There are no good Maneuvers with it. You may as well just use a sword. It's just depressing.
Yes it is the mounted combat rules. But those should work in favour of the Lance not against it.
There are no good Maneuvers with it. You may as well just use a sword. It's just depressing.
Were cavalry with lances in reality really able to do all that much with them? Seems to me they could do a cavalry charge and impale things with them, and little else.
A versatile weapon they were not.
There are no good Maneuvers with it. You may as well just use a sword. It's just depressing.Were cavalry with lances in reality really able to do all that much with them? Seems to me they could do a cavalry charge and impale things with them, and little else.
A versatile weapon they were not.
IDK what Gortle meant by no good maneuvers with them, but lances aren't even particularly good at the cavalry charge thing. (Or at least weren't until the harnessed shield.) The charge is the best way to use them, but without reach your average damage is only better than the bastard sword in one scenario.
Lance one handed no movement, 1d6 (3.5) + deadly
Lance one handed with mounted movement 1d6+1 (4.4
5) + deadly
Bastard sword one handed: 1d8 (4.5)
Lance two handed no movement 1d8 (4.5)
Lance two handed with mounted movement 4.5+1 (5.5)
Bastard sword two handed 1d12 (6.5)
You need to be critting, one handing the weapon, and charging to pull ahead of the sword, and you probably can only get the charge damage once a round at once. Seems like the only thing its really good for is the Cavalier's Charge feat.