Dragon disciple or eldritch knight?


Advice


As it says. I'm trying to figure out which is stronger. The full bab eldritch knight or the str bonus and abilities of the DD. I wouldn't go more than 8 levels in DD. I don't know if the capstone of EK is really that good or not. Can someone break it down for me.


Dragon Disciple.

The stat increases more than make up for the lower BAB, the HD is better, and the Bloodline abilities are better and more numerous than the combat feats, plus they stack with your initial class to meet Bloodline levels (including for effects, which is rare).

It's worth going for that 9th level of DD for the wings - they're permanent, after all.

Eldritch Knight is just... really weak. It's spellcasting advancement is good, but it gets so few extra abilities that you'd be better off not taking it at all, or going DD.

---

However, it's worth noting that there are two alternatives to both classes:

The Magus is pretty much better than an Eldritch Knight in every way, save for 9th level magic vs 6th. Even the decreased BAB is supplanted by tons and tons of extra tricks and Archetypes unto itself.

The Bloodrager is the Dragon Disciple in Base Class form, along with the option of being a DD for all other Bloodlines as well.


chbgraphicarts wrote:

Dragon Disciple.

The stat increases more than make up for the lower BAB, the HD is better, and the Bloodline abilities are better and more numerous than the combat feats, plus they stack with your initial class to meet Bloodline levels (including for effects, which is rare).

It's worth going for that 9th level of DD for the wings - they're permanent, after all.

Eldritch Knight is just... really weak. It's spellcasting advancement is good, but it gets so few extra abilities that you'd be better off not taking it at all, or going DD.

---

However, it's worth noting that there are two alternatives to both classes:

The Magus is pretty much better than an Eldritch Knight in every way, save for 9th level magic vs 6th. Even the decreased BAB is supplanted by tons and tons of extra tricks and Archetypes unto itself.

The Bloodrager is the Dragon Disciple in Base Class form, along with the option of being a DD for all other Bloodlines as well.

Thanks for the quick reply, DD it is.


arcanine wrote:
As it says. I'm trying to figure out which is stronger. The full bab eldritch knight or the str bonus and abilities of the DD. I wouldn't go more than 8 levels in DD. I don't know if the capstone of EK is really that good or not. Can someone break it down for me.

The EK capstone looks sexy on paper until you run into the swift action problem.

The arcane strike feat for instance
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/arcane-strike-combat

looks like it's tailor made for Eldritch Knight, but in fact utilizing it means you can't capitalize on your capstone because your swift action is already spent.

This problem crops up for a number of swift action abilities. That being said if you're goal is highest possible BaB + highest possible level of spells then edritch knight is the winner, it just takes awhile to get there.

Dragon Disciple on the other hand is pretty beefy from the get go. If you don't have a problem playing a good guy then I can't recommend PLD/SOR/DD enough, the synergies are super fun. Then when you're done with DD fill out the rest of your levels with EK.

- Torger


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Dragon Disciple [is stronger].
In its own way, yes.
chbgraphicarts wrote:
The stat increases more than make up for the lower BAB, the HD is better, and the Bloodline abilities are better and more numerous than the combat feats, plus they stack with your initial class to meet Bloodline levels (including for effects, which is rare).

The DD, if factoring the each +STR as BAB, would have 9 BAB, the HD is 12 instead of 10 (so if you're doing averages you get 1 extra HD/lvl), the bloodline and DD wings are both (Su) meaning in an area where magic is suppressed (Such as an anti-magic field) the effect of both wings (from DD and Sorcerer levels) goes away—this is not the case with the Strix as it is a racial fly speed,—the DD does get 3 bloodline feats from this list: (Blind-Fight, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Skill Focus (Fly), Skill Focus (Knowledge [arcana]), Toughness) + any other list if you are using the crossblooded archetype.

In addition to this, the DD class doesn't specifically state that the class pushed forward in caster level has to be a sorcerer or other spontaneous caster: you could do a wizard so long as you qualify for the class. The Robe of Arcane Heritage also pushes a Sorcerer 1/DD10 to qualifying for Sorcerer 15 bloodline abilities.

You could also try Fighter: Unbreakable 1/ Sorcerer 1: Crossblooded [Draconic/Orcish] 1/Wizard (Scryer) 1/ EK 1 - 2/ DD 10/ EK 3 - 7 and progress the Wizard's spellcasting (the +2 int helps the DCs),
or skip the sorcerer and qualify for DD with a racial SLA as any 1st level racial SLA that shows up on any arcane caster's list will work as arcane has priority over divine for this.

+4 str, +2 con, +2 int.
130 = HP 1d10+1d6+1d6+10d12+7d10 (10+4+4+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+6+6+6+6+6+6+6)
15 = BAB______(+1+0+0+7+7)
11 = Fort_____(+2+0+0+5+4)
05 = Ref______(+0+0+0+3+2)
11 = Will_____(+0+2+2+5+2)
01 = CL Sorc)_(+0+0+1+0+0) (1st level casting, if Crossblooded Draconic/Orcish +1 elemental damage when element matches draconic bloodline, and +1 force damage when rolling damage dice at all.
14 = CL Wiz)_ (+0+1+0+7+6) (7th level casting)

Or Fighter: Unbreakable 1/ 1/Wizard (Scryer) 1/ EK 1 - 2/ DD 10/ EK 3 - 8 (race that gets lvl 1 SLA)
+4 str, +2 con, +2 int.
132 = HP 1d10+1d5+10d12+8d10 (10+4+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+6+6+6+6+6+6+6+6)
16 = BAB______(+1+0+7+8)
11 = Fort_____(+2+0+5+4)
06 = Ref______(+0+0+3+3)
10 = Will_____(+0+2+5+3)
15 = CL Wiz)__(+0+1+7+7) (8th level casting)
No benefit from sorcerer bloodlines, so overall weaker character, weaker

Or Fighter: Unbreakable 1/ Sorcerer 1: Crossblooded [Draconic/Orcish] 1/ EK 1 - 2/ DD 10/ EK 3 - 8 (Race that gets lvl 3 SLA, most likely Aasimar)
+4 str, +2 con, +2 int.
132 = HP 1d10+1d5+10d12+8d10 (10+4+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+6+6+6+6+6+6+6+6)
16 = BAB______(+1+0+7+8)
11 = Fort_____(+2+0+5+4)
06 = Ref______(+0+0+3+3)
10 = Will_____(+0+3+5+3)
15 = CL Sorc)_(+0+1+7+7) (7th level casting)

The other strength of the Dragon Disciple is that you don't need to dip in anything else: you could go sorcerer 10/Dragon Disciple 10 (Likely Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 1 > Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 10 > Sorcerer 10/Dragon Disciple 10.

+4 str, +2 con, +2 int.
121 = HP 10d6+10d12 (6+5+5+5+5+5+5+5+5+5+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7)
12 = BAB______(+5+7)
8 = Fort______(+3+5)
06 = Ref______(+3+3)
12 = Will_____(+7+5)
17 = CL Sorc)_(10+7) (8th level casting)

or

+4 str, +2 con, +2 int.
121 = HP 10d6+10d12 (6+5+5+5+5+5+5+5+5+5+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7)
12 = BAB______(+5+7)
8 = Fort______(+3+5)
06 = Ref______(+3+3)
12 = Will_____(+7+5)
17 = CL Wiz)__(10+7) (9th level casting)

EK is great if you're looking for early access (If you are an Aasimar) to start getting extra BAB and HP faster. Overall both classes have their strengths: EKs get full bab and 9/10 caster progression with the capstone being the ability to cast a single memorized spell that normally takes a standard or less as a swift action and then deliver it, while DDs get a lot of "monster" abilities such as growing bite and claws when using the draconic bloodline to do so, gaining a breath attack, getting natural armor bonuses and ability score increases.

Honestly, though, if you want to be able to fly then just play a strix or a werebat-kin skinwalker: strix get it for free and werebat-kin can get it as a feat.

chbgraphicarts wrote:
It's worth going for that 9th level of DD for the wings - they're permanent, after all.
See Strix, get wings from level 1.
chbgraphicarts wrote:
Eldritch Knight is just... really weak. It's spellcasting advancement is good, but it gets so few extra abilities that you'd be better off not taking it at all, or going DD.
Both are potentially powerful, both, if taken at level 5 with only their chosen class (sorcerer or wizard with racial SLA to qualify) can get high level casting (8th for sorcerer, 9th for wizard) at level 20.
chbgraphicarts wrote:

The Magus is pretty much better than an Eldritch Knight in every way, save for 9th level magic vs 6th. Even the decreased BAB is supplanted by tons and tons of extra tricks and Archetypes unto itself.

The Bloodrager is the Dragon Disciple in Base Class form, along with the option of being a DD for all other Bloodlines as well.

The magus is god awful...ly powerful in the right hands. A blade bound staff magus hexcrafter can be pretty deadly.

No clue on the bloodrager, I haven't crafted one as a deadly NPC, yet.

Either way, have fun with your class, dear OP, as that is really all that matters. Being optimal is just there to facilitate RP instead of worrying about mechanics.


I think EK will be a bit better at casting.
DD will be a bit better at weapons work.

Some people will insist that the most powerful is a combination of both DD and EK.


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
Dragon Disciple [is stronger].
In its own way, yes.
chbgraphicarts wrote:
The stat increases more than make up for the lower BAB, the HD is better, and the Bloodline abilities are better and more numerous than the combat feats, plus they stack with your initial class to meet Bloodline levels (including for effects, which is rare).

The DD, if factoring the each +STR as BAB, would have 9 BAB, the HD is 12 instead of 10 (so if you're doing averages you get 1 extra HD/lvl), the bloodline and DD wings are both (Su) meaning in an area where magic is suppressed (Such as an anti-magic field) the effect of both wings (from DD and Sorcerer levels) goes away—this is not the case with the Strix as it is a racial fly speed,—the DD does get 3 bloodline feats from this list: (Blind-Fight, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Skill Focus (Fly), Skill Focus (Knowledge [arcana]), Toughness) + any other list if you are using the crossblooded archetype.

In addition to this, the DD class doesn't specifically state that the class pushed forward in caster level has to be a sorcerer or other spontaneous caster: you could do a wizard so long as you qualify for the class. The Robe of Arcane Heritage also pushes a Sorcerer 1/DD10 to qualifying for Sorcerer 15 bloodline abilities.

You could also try Fighter: Unbreakable 1/ Sorcerer 1: Crossblooded [Draconic/Orcish] 1/Wizard (Scryer) 1/ EK 1 - 2/ DD 10/ EK 3 - 7 and progress the Wizard's spellcasting (the +2 int helps the DCs),
or skip the sorcerer and qualify for DD with a racial SLA as any 1st level racial SLA that shows up on any arcane caster's list will work as arcane has priority over divine for this.

+4 str, +2 con, +2 int.
130 = HP 1d10+1d6+1d6+10d12+7d10 (10+4+4+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+6+6+6+6+6+6+6)
15 = BAB______(+1+0+0+7+7)
11 = Fort_____(+2+0+0+5+4)
05 = Ref______(+0+0+0+3+2)
11 = Will_____(+0+2+2+5+2)
01 = CL Sorc)_(+0+0+1+0+0) (1st level casting, if Crossblooded Draconic/Orcish +1 elemental...

WOW.. But once you get a level of DD you will only have one SLA. Or would you get all of the arcane spells of a level one sorcerer? Also if I go one level wiz(scryer) would my familiar level as well? How would that work if I took levels in DD? Would it continue to levels with me or no? And would the Orc bloodline level with the draconic as I take levels in DD? Im have been looking into the familiar folio. And my my it is epic. I was thinking something like.

2-4 levels eldritch guardian, 1 sorcerer, 9DD,

I really appreciate the massive input.


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arcanine wrote:

WOW.. But once you get a level of DD you will only have one SLA. Or would you get all of the arcane spells of a level one sorcerer? Also if I go one level wiz(scryer) would my familiar level as well? How would that work if I took levels in DD? Would it continue to levels with me or no? And would the Orc bloodline level with the draconic as I take levels in DD? Im have been looking into the familiar folio. And my my it is epic. I was thinking something like.

2-4 levels eldritch guardian, 1 sorcerer, 9DD,

I really appreciate the massive input.

You are allowed to choose which class you apply Dragon Disciple's +1 spell casting to, and you would choose Wizard since you have no other spellcasting class.

Racial spell-like abilities scale with your hit-dice, which, for the vast majority of PCs, equals their class levels. Creatures with racial hit dice, such as wolves who have 2hd, operate exactly the same way in terms of racial hd, but if they took class levels these HD would stack, so to push the example: a level 1 wolf fighter would have 3 HD (2d8 + 1d10), and so any racial Spell-Like Abilities it has would operate at caster level 3.

The crossblooded archetype levels both simultaneously, but you are allowed to choose which aspect to take at each level. For instance, at bloodline rank 1 (1 level in Sorcerer) you have two choices (Power A1 from bloodline a and power B1 from bloodline b), while at bloodline rank 4 (Sorc 4, or Sorc 1/DD3) you would qualify to take one of the rank 4 options, however not just that but you could take any lower level ability you qualify for, Lets assume you took power A1 from bloodline a (You could choose, Power B1, Power B2 from Bloodline b or power A2 from bloodline a.)

In addition to this, the Crossblooded bloodline gains both of the bloodline arcanas. However, you cannot take an archetypal bloodline, such as Sage or empyreal, since these are not only more powerful than regular bloodlines but change how the class works.

Think of crossblooded as a bloodline that is treated as both bloodline a and bloodline b, but you get to take choice bits from both each, while gaining the basic strengths (Bloodline Arcanas) of each. The only major drawback is is that your sorcerer levels, and only your sorcerer levels, lose some spells that it knows each level, sure you take a -2 to will, but that is more for your party to be worried about. If you get hit with Dominate Person, and then cast disintegrate on the cleric, you're winning!

I've never seen Eldritch Guardian before, looks interesting. You'd qualify for improved familiar at level 7 if you took the feat.

What might work out for you is
Fighter: Eldritch Guardian 1/ Wizard (Scryer) 1 (Bonded Item)/ Sorcerer (crossblooded or not, draconic required) 1/ EK 2/ DD 10/ EK 3 - 7. Bonded items are stupidly powerful for full wizards, but for you it would just be an extra spell per day. Not just any extra spell, mind you, but ANY SPELL IN YOUR SPELLBOOK up to your maximum spell level as a wizard. In other words: you never need to learn teleport, since if your party is getting screwed by an ambush you can ready an action, yell for everyone to grab ahold of you, declare you are fighting defensively (+2 dodge bonus to AC, dodge bonuses stack) and then when everyone has touched you: *poof!*

Familiars gain levels in familiar whenever the class that took them, or a class that is being used to gain a familiar, takes a rank. This typically means an intelligence increase, some natural armor and some cool abilities.

However, familiars ALWAYS use, if higher, your BAB, your Fort, Reflex
Will and 1/2 your max HP as their HP.

I like wizards, if you can't tell. You get to have a big beard, be a pretentious jerk and, more often than not, tell the rest of the party how they're doing it wrong with your extensive knowledge skills. Basically, you play Gandalf.

Keep in mind that if you want to be a pet-master you could go:
Summoner 20 (standard summoner)
Feat 1 [possibly from Human or Half-elf] Skill Focus (Any one knowledge) (Prerequisite for Eldritch Heritage)
Feat 2 Nature Soul (Prerequisite for Animal Ally)
Feat 3 Eldritch Heritage: Arcane (Gain familiar, whose level is at a -2 penalty to yours)
Feat 4 Animal Ally (Grants Animal Companion at -4 level penalty)
Feat 5 Boon Companion: Animal companion (Removes -4 level penalty)
Feat 6 Leadership (Gain cohort.)

This would give you a powerful Eidolon, a Familiar, An Animal Companion and a Cohort, hence making you your own little party walking around. You could both be Gnomeish wolf-riders. Of course, this means no Dragon Disciple.

You could play a werebat-kin with Bat Form, take a bat as your familiar, have a bird as your animal companions, have your eidolon be a flying quadruped of some sort as well and have your cohort also be a werebat-kin with Bat Form. Your song could go: when danger rears its mighty head we fly away, because screw that!


/QUOTE]
Racial spell-like abilities scale with your hit-dice, which, for the vast majority of PCs, equals their class levels. Creatures with racial hit dice, such as wolves who have 2hd, operate exactly the same way in terms of racial hd, but if they took class levels these HD would stack, so to push the example: a level 1 wolf fighter would have 3 HD (2d8 + 1d10), and so any racial Spell-Like Abilities it has would operate at caster level 3.

The crossblooded archetype levels both simultaneously, but you are allowed to choose which aspect to take at each level. For instance, at bloodline rank 1 (1 level in Sorcerer) you have two choices (Power A1 from bloodline a and power B1 from bloodline b), while at bloodline rank 4 (Sorc 4, or Sorc 1/DD3) you would qualify to take one of the rank 4 options, however not just that but you could take any lower level ability you qualify for, Lets assume you took power A1 from bloodline a (You could choose, Power B1, Power B2 from Bloodline b or power A2 from bloodline a.)

In addition to this, the Crossblooded bloodline gains both of the bloodline arcanas. However, you cannot take an archetypal bloodline, such as Sage or empyreal, since these are not only more powerful than regular bloodlines but change how the class works.

Think of crossblooded...

You can go to the pathfinder Ogc site to link up all of the new archetype's but you have to click on core classes>archetype's their are a lot more for all of the classes. Thei fighter got a few as didn't barbarian. Same instructions for familiars the mauler is a crazy arctype for the familiars.


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
arcanine wrote:

WOW.. But once you get a level of DD you will only have one SLA. Or would you get all of the arcane spells of a level one sorcerer? Also if I go one level wiz(scryer) would my familiar level as well? How would that work if I took levels in DD? Would it continue to levels with me or no? And would the Orc bloodline level with the draconic as I take levels in DD? Im have been looking into the familiar folio. And my my it is epic. I was thinking something like.

2-4 levels eldritch guardian, 1 sorcerer, 9DD,

I really appreciate the massive input.

You are allowed to choose which class you apply Dragon Disciple's +1 spell casting to, and you would choose Wizard since you have no other spellcasting class.

Racial spell-like abilities scale with your hit-dice, which, for the vast majority of PCs, equals their class levels. Creatures with racial hit dice, such as wolves who have 2hd, operate exactly the same way in terms of racial hd, but if they took class levels these HD would stack, so to push the example: a level 1 wolf fighter would have 3 HD (2d8 + 1d10), and so any racial Spell-Like Abilities it has would operate at caster level 3.

The crossblooded archetype levels both simultaneously, but you are allowed to choose which aspect to take at each level. For instance, at bloodline rank 1 (1 level in Sorcerer) you have two choices (Power A1 from bloodline a and power B1 from bloodline b), while at bloodline rank 4 (Sorc 4, or Sorc 1/DD3) you would qualify to take one of the rank 4 options, however not just that but you could take any lower level ability you qualify for, Lets assume you took power A1 from bloodline a (You could choose, Power B1, Power B2 from Bloodline b or power A2 from bloodline a.)

In addition to this, the Crossblooded bloodline gains both of the bloodline arcanas. However, you cannot take an archetypal bloodline, such as Sage or empyreal, since these are not only more powerful than regular bloodlines but change how the class works.

Think of crossblooded...

Also I made this build http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rwqw?APE-WITH-RANGED-WEAPON-3-ANIMAL-COMPANION S

Scarab Sages

I'm pretty sure a SLA will not qualify for dragon disciple. It counts as spell casting an arcane spell, but I don't think it counts as spontaneous casting.


Hellknight Signifer is a better option than Eldritch Knight imho.


Imbicatus wrote:
I'm pretty sure a SLA will not qualify for dragon disciple. It counts as spell casting an arcane spell, but I don't think it counts as spontaneous casting.

There's a faq that says sla's do work for entry into prestige classes. Such as racial sla's

Shadow Lodge

Elderitch knight is a much better Gish then DD. But I will concede that a melee DD is better then a eldritch knight, as a ranged character the ek wins hands down.


My CORE character for PFS is planned as Fighter 1/ Bard 4/ Dragon Disciple 4/ Eldritch Knight 2. The casting is basically just to buff himself and his allies. Not the traditional route, but both classes have good uses. I think they are both viable, it really depends on how much you value stuff like BAB vs strength in a particular build.


I played a Wizard Eldritch Knight and was perfectly happy with the character and would say they were superior to the DD. Normally I prefer spontaneous casters but in this case it was slightly less MAD and led to very good skills, spells and combat ability.

Also you do not necessarily need Arcane Strike (a few points additional damage usually) or you may not be playing to the capstone level so the reasoning given by the first poster I feel is, well a minor point at best. Always bear in mind as well the better BAB will for some levels give you more attacks too.

So better caster & better BAB = give me the Wizard Eldritch Knight.


Imbicatus wrote:
I'm pretty sure a SLA will not qualify for dragon disciple. It counts as spell casting an arcane spell, but I don't think it counts as spontaneous casting.

The prerequisite for Dragon Disciple doesn't actually say "spontaneous."

Core Rulebook wrote:
Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.

Since SLA's don't require preparation, they should do fine.

For the record, I think SLA's would qualify as spontaneous anyway.

Scarab Sages

Torger Miltenberger wrote:
arcanine wrote:
As it says. I'm trying to figure out which is stronger. The full bab eldritch knight or the str bonus and abilities of the DD. I wouldn't go more than 8 levels in DD. I don't know if the capstone of EK is really that good or not. Can someone break it down for me.

The EK capstone looks sexy on paper until you run into the swift action problem.

The arcane strike feat for instance
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/arcane-strike-combat

looks like it's tailor made for Eldritch Knight, but in fact utilizing it means you can't capitalize on your capstone because your swift action is already spent.

This problem crops up for a number of swift action abilities. That being said if you're goal is highest possible BaB + highest possible level of spells then edritch knight is the winner, it just takes awhile to get there.

Dragon Disciple on the other hand is pretty beefy from the get go. If you don't have a problem playing a good guy then I can't recommend PLD/SOR/DD enough, the synergies are super fun. Then when you're done with DD fill out the rest of your levels with EK.

- Torger

If you pick Bloodrager you can get Blooded Arcane Strike http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/blooded-arcane-strike-combat Which is active as long as you are bloodraging, which would add a few other buffs as well.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

"Dragon disciple or eldritch knight?" BOTH

Most of the best dragon disciple benefits are in the first 4 levels (maybe 6), while the biggest benefits of eldritch knight are: advancing both BAB and spellcasting (after 1st) every level, qualifying as both a fighter (Weapon Specialization, etc.) and a wizard (Arcane Discoveries) for feat prerequisites, and a wider selection (any combat feat) for the bonus feats. So you combine them: Take 4 (or maybe 6) levels of dragon disciple and then switch to eldritch knight as soon as you can cast 3rd-level spells; don't worry about the eldritch knight capstone until you're about 19th-20th level (if you get it at all).

Scarab Sages

Duncan888 wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
I'm pretty sure a SLA will not qualify for dragon disciple. It counts as spell casting an arcane spell, but I don't think it counts as spontaneous casting.
There's a faq that says sla's do work for entry into prestige classes. Such as racial sla's

I'm aware of that, and if you read my post, you'll see I said it counts as spellcasting. I don't know if it counts as casting spells spontaneously, but that doesn't matter, as gisher pointed out, the requirement reads casting spells without preparation. Based on that, I would say that a racial SLA qualifies.

Also, based on that, It might be worth taking DD without any arcane casting class. You still gain bloodline abilities, massive boosts to attributes, natural armor, bonus feats, blindsense, and a d12 hit die.

You lose on advancing casting, but for a heavy armor class, that doesn't really matter.


Dragonchess Player wrote:

"Dragon disciple or eldritch knight?" BOTH

Most of the best dragon disciple benefits are in the first 4 levels (maybe 6), while the biggest benefits of eldritch knight are: advancing both BAB and spellcasting (after 1st) every level, qualifying as both a fighter (Weapon Specialization, etc.) and a wizard (Arcane Discoveries) for feat prerequisites, and a wider selection (any combat feat) for the bonus feats. So you combine them: Take 4 (or maybe 6) levels of dragon disciple and then switch to eldritch knight as soon as you can cast 3rd-level spells; don't worry about the eldritch knight capstone until you're about 19th-20th level (if you get it at all).

8 levels of DD over 6, honestly. The DD's dead levels are 1/5/9; at those levels they don't progress either BAB or casting. Since DD 7 and DD 8 progress both casting and BAB (as well as saves, really), with a better hit die, virtually any gained class ability is going to be better than what EK grants. DD 7 and DD 8 are also pretty great-- Dragon Form isn't much (but isn't bad either honestly) and the feat could be of debatable value, but +1 natural armor is solid and +2 Int is /awesome/ if we're talking about progressing Wizard (which is likely).

Something like a race with a 1st level SLA, Inspired Blade 1/Scryer Wizard 1/EK 3/DD 8/EK 7 would be my first thought. Or Fighter, if you like a combat feat more than the Swashbuckler's defensive tricks, but I'd take the defenses.


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I support doing both. Dragon disciple loses on too much spellcasting opportunity and is front loaded on most good features. The EK is better for a long haul but it also isn't worth going all the way to the end in most cases either. the real debate is how many of each not which one of the two to take IMO. I favor DD4 in all cases that desire to be more caster than melee and DD 6 for all melee over caster. My logic is the +2 con is so rare that it is worth losing a level of casting. I figure the health gains equate to 2*D12 and +2 con over all the rest of the life of the character vs 2 levels of D6. yeah that's about 18 HP but that's nothing to sneeze at for someone who is interested in melee


Thanks guys for the input. I'm thinking a mix of both.


Issue can I wear armor? As a DD? I will have a arcane failure. Am I a tank or a caster? D12 hit die and 3/4 BAB. Should I go caster or tank/melee dps with the claws and bite? How what's the point of a DD a hybrid? Is still spell the feat all DD's take?

It confuses me that they have power attack and quicken spell on the list of feats. Like am I suppose to use a 2h weapon for max melee dps? Or am I not in armor and casting spells? What the mind set of a DD? Fighter, Magus with arcane failure, Wizard?


Not a tank. you don't normally have the armor or HP for that.

Usually the DD is built to be a self buffing melee machine. Use mage armor or arcane armor training, some medium-long buffs well before the fight , then a short buff at fight start, then behave as a superstrong two-handed weapon (or claw) combatant.

Sometimes the DD is built to be a switch hitter. If your opponent is a martial DPR death machine, you stay away and cast spell at him until dead. If your opponent is a caster, then you get right in his face and claw/claw/bite him without giving him a chance to cast spells and be a danger.

I think the second is the most fun option, but it is certainly more difficult to build and play well.

Scarab Sages

After the SLA FAQ, you can't use a SLA to qualify for DD. A non-spontaneous caster would need greater spell specialization to enter the class.

Sovereign Court

While DD is 3/4 BAB - they get enough strength bonuses - especially if you go cross-blooded to get more - that their boosted strength more than makes up for the 2-3 point loss in BAB vs full BAB.

Scarab Sages

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
While DD is 3/4 BAB - they get enough strength bonuses - especially if you go cross-blooded to get more - that their boosted strength more than makes up for the 2-3 point loss in BAB vs full BAB.

QFT, the DD is a better Eldritch Knight than the Eldritch Knight.


Something else to consider is the various stat boosts increase not just your attack bonus but also your damage, hit points, saves, and skill points too, so once you get all of them you are adding in all those on top (which scale with level instead of class level), making a DD really nice.

EK is awkward because as you get there you switch what you do. At first your a caster, then your a middle tier mix, then you end up a tougher caster.

If I was to use EK right now I would probably go bloodrager 1 caster 5 then EK and take the mad magic feat. Mixed with say the scarred witch doctor witch you have a lot of HP, and the ability to cast off of Con which, oh now you boost with rage while still casting.


Can you be a tank? Mithril armor and arcane armor training and a reach weapon?


Just use mage armor and a reach weapon

Sovereign Court

arcanine wrote:
Can you be a tank? Mithril armor and arcane armor training and a reach weapon?

The mithril breastplate can work - though it may be rather feat intensive depending what the build is. It might be easier to just use mage armor at low levels and an enchanted hamaraki at higher levels. I'm not sure about the reach weapon. I think that they do better as nat weapon builds.

If you start as either a half-orc or a tiefling - you can have a bite attack all of the time at 1.5x strength damage. Then when full attacking you can grow your claws. It's unlikely that you'd ever run out of claw rounds in a given day.

If you go tiefling - go draconic/abyssal. As a tiefling your Charisma counts as 2 points higher for sorceror abilities/spells, and abyssal can give you bonus strength at 9/13/17.

And yes - they can tank rather well. Their AC can get higher than anyone without a shield (except for monks and wild-shaped druids) due to the bonus nat armor and they get a d12hd and bonus Con. And they can self-buff with the Shield spell and mirror image etc.

Try something like -

Tiefling (Pitborn) - 20pt buy

Str:16
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:8
Cha:16 (counts as 18 for sorceror things)

Classes vary depending upon your focus. Either straight sorceror 5 into DD to be a near full caster - a couple Pali levels for proficiencies & saves along with 3 sorceror levels would make for a more tanky/martial focus. *Shrug* - there are several ways to go.

Scarab Sages

Barbarain 4 / Sorc-Bard 1 / DD / back to barbarian is rather common for a Martial DD that just does some minor buffing.

You could also just go Bloodrager 5 / DD, but I think I'd rather stay pure Bloodrager.


Imbicatus is there any reason to use barbarian any more instead of bloodrager even if you are going with the /sorc/bard/ route?

With mad magic it seems silly to do anything else to me.

Sovereign Court

Imbicatus wrote:

Barbarain 4 / Sorc-Bard 1 / DD / back to barbarian is rather common for a Martial DD that just does some minor buffing.

You could also just go Bloodrager 5 / DD, but I think I'd rather stay pure Bloodrager.

Yeah - going that route you may as well just be a bloodrager. Not a bad class - but barb 4/ sorc 1/ DD seems like a lot of extra complexity for the same ballpark effect and vibe.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

Barbarain 4 / Sorc-Bard 1 / DD / back to barbarian is rather common for a Martial DD that just does some minor buffing.

You could also just go Bloodrager 5 / DD, but I think I'd rather stay pure Bloodrager.

Yeah - going that route you may as well just be a bloodrager. Not a bad class - but barb 4/ sorc 1/ DD seems like a lot of extra complexity for the same ballpark effect and vibe.

It makes sense though if you want more spells. Even with the above the barb/sorc is going to have more spells than the bloodrager will ever dream of having.

The bard/bard will have lower level spells but his spell usage is different and he still has more slots so it seems to me if you are after those differences and more buffs it still is useful as well.

I'm just trying to see the draw of barbarian over bloodrager for it, as bloodrager will still net you pretty much everything the barbarian has and mad magic to boot.

Scarab Sages

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Charon's Little Helper wrote:


Yeah - going that route you may as well just be a bloodrager. Not a bad class - but barb 4/ sorc 1/ DD seems like a lot of extra complexity for the same ballpark effect and vibe.

Oh it is. But it's an option if ACG classes are not available in your game. It also can grant you more STR when raging earlier than you would get as a pure barb/bloodrager.

Besides, sometimes it's okay to be needlessly complicated.


I'm a fan of Folding Plate for casters who want to wear armor.


Abraham spalding wrote:
I'm just trying to see the draw of barbarian over bloodrager for it, as bloodrager will still net you pretty much everything the barbarian has and mad magic to boot.

Barb/Sorc/DD - Greater Defenses, more HP, Better spell selection, More spells known and spells/day, Bloodline abilities are always on.

Bloodrager - Better ranged options, full Caster Level (individual spells are more powerful), greater number of Rounds of Rage, cast spells while Raging.

So, for "Mad Magic" it REALLY depends on what you want - strength of an individual spell, or more spells and a wider variety of spells.

---

As far as damage output, they're pretty much dead even. The Bloodrager casts burn spells which deal damage, but the Barbarian-DD has a more powerful Rage than a Bloodrager.

Bloodragers get +6 to Str & Con at level 11 for [22 + Base Con] rounds per day.

Barbarian-DDs get +8 to Str and +6 to Con at level 10 for [12 + Base Con] rounds per day (remembering that your Con is increased by 2 from DD, so effectively 1 more than usual).

---

Barbarian-DDs get a far greater spell selection and more spells per day than a Bloodrager. However, a Bloodrager can cast spells even while Raging without needing Moment of Clarity, and their entire Class Level is their Caster Level. Bloodragers, therefore, will have more-powerful individual spells (like Scorching Ray), and a much-greater chance of breaking through SR.

Bloodragers get 1 3rd level spell, 2 2nd level spells, and 2 1st level spells per day at lv12, with a Caster Level of 12.

Barbarian-DDs get 3 3rd level spells, 5 2nd level spells, and 6 1st level spells per day at lv12, with a Caster Level of 6.

---

Pure Barbarians, Barbarian-DDs, and Bloodragers are three ways to make a Viking God of Death, and they're all about even in effectiveness.


The Barb1/Sorc4/DD4 has a huge casting edge in practical terms. Getting to cast Greater Magic Weapon +2 on a Furious, Courageous weapon at 8 - when your strength just evened out, hopefully - is huge. By the time the Bloodrager has their first third-level spell twice a day at 10, the DD can have Haste, Fly, Greater Magic Weapon, and either Heroism or Monstrous Physique 1 (Gargoyle) 6 times a day. The DD is just rolling in second level protection as well. Bloodrager and barb-heavy DD have advantages, but the casting support is minimal compared to the sorc-heavy DD's. The one notable issue for the low-barb DD is rage rounds, but Extra Rage is pretty generous at 3 levels worth.

People often bemoan the rage/casting dilemma, but it seems to me like it's pretty rare to want to try and throw a spell once the big bits of metal are flying around at head-level. I guess it could depend on the style of the game.


So a related question.

Assuming you're going Barb1/Sorc4/DD4...

Why not make that Bloodrager 1/Sorc4/DD4?

You're trading 2 HP for a slightly better rage (via getting the bloodline) and access to the Mad Magic feat without jumping through hoops, giving you the ability to cast in combat should the situation arise.


kestral287 wrote:

So a related question.

Assuming you're going Barb1/Sorc4/DD4...

Why not make that Bloodrager 1/Sorc4/DD4?

You're trading 2 HP for a slightly better rage (via getting the bloodline) and access to the Mad Magic feat without jumping through hoops, giving you the ability to cast in combat should the situation arise.

Because you're losing out on several HP, several notches of DR (there's no reason NOT to take Invulnerable Rager Barbarian), Elemental Resistance granted from the Barbarian, almost 10 rounds of Rage, your Bloodrager levels don't stack with Sorc for calculating your Bloodline, you MUST take Dragon Bloodline for both classes because of how they work, and your spells are all weaker.

Bloodrager STRAIGHT into Dragon Disciple is actually an okay idea. Not GREAT, but okay. You lose out on 2 levels of spellcasting, but you get the upped HP and the increased Str and Con, plus all 5 levels of Bloodrager still count towards calculating your Caster Level, so you're CL10, meaning your spells are still quite formidable, even if you only get up to 2nd level spells.

Another reason pure Bloodrager is nice is that you can be ANY Bloodline. Bloodrager is basically the answer to the long-running question of, "Will we ever get a Dragon Disciple-ish Prestige Class for X Bloodline?"


kestral287 wrote:

So a related question.

Assuming you're going Barb1/Sorc4/DD4...

Why not make that Bloodrager 1/Sorc4/DD4?

You're trading 2 HP for a slightly better rage (via getting the bloodline) and access to the Mad Magic feat without jumping through hoops, giving you the ability to cast in combat should the situation arise.

Okay, I misread that as Bar 4/Sorc 1, and Bld 4/Sorc1

See my previous posts, and then add in that your rounds of Rage are now nonexistent, you get next-to-no abilities at all, and your HP is in the sewers.

You're better off basically forgetting either Barbarian or Bloodrager at that point and going Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4/Bloodrager, or some other Martial class, just not the Bloodrager or Barbarian.


you could go aasimar bard and take the favored class bonus that allows you to get inspire courage +4 at lvl 12 and then take 8 levels of DD. arcane duelist archtype for the extra feats, and focus on melee bard with high str and buff spells like haste and heroism. your party will love you for inspire courage +4 at lvl 12. maybe even take a one level dip into barbarian for the rage and you'll jack your strength up hugely from DD and barbarian.

if you wanted a full caster thats nuking people this isnt really for you, but then again thats not really what the flavor of the dragon disciple seems to be with the extra strength and natural armor in there. but thats just my two cents


Skald 4/Bloodrager 1/DD X (probably 4)/something sounds like a pretty good build, especially if you go with the amplified rage familiar shenanigans.


Mad Magic wrote:

Benefit(s): You can cast spells from any class that grants you spells while in a bloodrage, and you keep your rage benefits when using moment of clarity during a rage.

If you have the greater bloodrage class feature, you also gain a +1 bonus to the save DCs of spells you cast while in a bloodrage.

You can cast in rage with mad magic without needing moment of clarity.

Basically its my opinion that at least a level in bloodrager is worth it if you are using sorcerer or bard because with that one level and a feat (mad magic) you open up your options while raging -- you don't have to drop out of rage in order to cast.

Honestly I would consider:
Barbarian 2 (invulnerable rager)
Bloodrager 2 (spelleater)
Sorcerer/bard 1
DD/EK mix for 15 levels

You get the bit of DR, the better upfront HP, you get better saves, you have more/better spell selection, you can cast in a rage, you have the better stats, and a touch of fast healing. The only thing you lose is actual caster level and lets face it, with as few spells and the crappy list of spells that bloodragers have it's not as impressive as it could be on that front either.

IF what you want is DD.


chbgraphicarts wrote:

...your rounds of Rage are now nonexistent, you get next-to-no abilities at all, and your HP is in the sewers.

You're better off basically forgetting either Barbarian or Bloodrager at that point and going Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4/Bloodrager, or some other Martial class, just not the Bloodrager or Barbarian.

The difference in rage rounds between Barb4 and Barb1 with 1 Extra Rage feat is 0. The difference in average HP between a barb1/sorc4/dd4 and a barb4/sorc1/dd4 is 6 HP, on characters in the 80's/90's. I don't really get where the disaster is here.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

So a related question.

Assuming you're going Barb1/Sorc4/DD4...

Why not make that Bloodrager 1/Sorc4/DD4?

You're trading 2 HP for a slightly better rage (via getting the bloodline) and access to the Mad Magic feat without jumping through hoops, giving you the ability to cast in combat should the situation arise.

Because you're losing out on several HP, several notches of DR (there's no reason NOT to take Invulnerable Rager Barbarian), Elemental Resistance granted from the Barbarian, almost 10 rounds of Rage, your Bloodrager levels don't stack with Sorc for calculating your Bloodline, you MUST take Dragon Bloodline for both classes because of how they work, and your spells are all weaker.

Bloodrager STRAIGHT into Dragon Disciple is actually an okay idea. Not GREAT, but okay. You lose out on 2 levels of spellcasting, but you get the upped HP and the increased Str and Con, plus all 5 levels of Bloodrager still count towards calculating your Caster Level, so you're CL10, meaning your spells are still quite formidable, even if you only get up to 2nd level spells.

Another reason pure Bloodrager is nice is that you can be ANY Bloodline. Bloodrager is basically the answer to the long-running question of, "Will we ever get a Dragon Disciple-ish Prestige Class for X Bloodline?"

So, working with the Barb 4/Sorc 1/DD 4 vs. Bloodrager 4/Sorc 1/DD 4...

HP: Average comes out to five HP. Two at level one, one at levels 2-4. I'm... frankly not worried.

DR: It's DR 2/-. Useful? Certainly. Mind-bogglingly awesome? Definitely not.

Elemental Resistance: One point of fire or cold resistance matters less than the DR by a long shot. Copying a 1st level spell with a 24 hour duration is also really, really negligible.

Rage rounds: What? Unless d20 is wrong...

Barbarian wrote:
Starting at 1st level, a barbarian can rage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, she can rage for 2 additional rounds.
Bloodrager wrote:
At 1st level, a bloodrager can bloodrage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, he can bloodrage for 2 additional rounds per day.

Those look identical to me.

Draconic Bloodline: Advantageous if you're using a natural attack build, since the Bloodrager's claws are better than what you'd pick up off Lesser Beast Totem. Having the claws extends your combat time per day significantly. Not stacking is a minor concern at best; take Primalist and trade in the fourth-level power for two rage powers of choice (meaning Bloodrager actually gets more rage powers).

Weaker spells: Sorcerer spells will be identical either way. Bloodrager spells are a strict bonus over the spells the Barbarian grants (read: zero). Not sure what you're going for here.

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