Does Weapon Finesse Allow the use of Dexterity with Grapple?


Rules Questions

Lantern Lodge

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Questions (some don't fit with the title as my questions gave me more questions).

Q1. If I have Weapon Finesse can I use my dexterity instead of strength for my CMB to grapple?

Q2. Does an Amulet of Mighty Fists allow my grapple checks to have the applicable +# magic bonus?

Q3. If I have the Improved Grapple feat from a class ability that allows me to take it without meeting the prerequisites and I do not have Improved Unarmed Strike would I provoke an attack of opportunity?

This FAQ specifically answers a question about Weapon Finesse and CMB: Pathfinder Core Rulebook FAQ.

"Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex)."

This Paizo Blog gives more information on combat maneuver bonuses:
Combat Maneuvers and Weapon Special Features Blog

"Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.

For other maneuvers, either you’re not using a weapon at all, or the weapon is incidental to making the maneuver and its bonuses shouldn’t make you better at attempting the maneuver. For example, just because you have a +5 greatsword doesn’t mean it gives you a +5 bonus on dirty trick checks (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 320), and just because you have a +5 dagger doesn’t mean it gives you a +5 bonus on grapple checks. Of course, the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers, such as when using a sap in a dirty trick maneuver to hit an opponent in a sensitive spot."

Disarm, Sunder, and Trip seem to be very purposefully mentioned as the only maneuvers that work with finesse.

Improved Grapple has Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite and the rules for grappling (Core 200) state "Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a -4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll."

Weapon Finesse is applicable for all light weapons (Core 136) and unarmed strikes are considered light weapons (Core 182).

Side note- Page 182 of the Core Rulebook talks about "armed" unarmed attacks, but does not say that "unarmed" unarmed attacks are treated differently in regards to whether or not it is considered a weapon. Unless that is mentioned in a FAQ or blog it should mean that you don't need Improved Unarmed Strike for your unarmed attacks to count as weapons.

Points

P1. Unarmed strikes are considered weapons for CMBs and are considered light weapons.
P2. If you're using a weapon for a combat maneuver you use that weapon's bonuses for the CMB (including those granted by Weapon Finesse).
P3. Improved Unarmed Strike is a prerequisite for Improved Grappling.
P4. You take a -4 penalty on your CMB to grapple if you don't have two hands free.
P5. Unarmed strikes and grapple attempts each provoke attacks of opportunity without applicable feats.

Q1. P3 & P4-grapple is a hand attack, otherwise known as unarmed strikes; P1-hands are light weapons; P2-you use weapon bonuses, such as Weapon Finesse, for CMB on any maneuver that uses that weapon. With the side note above lacking Improved Unarmed Strike or Improved Grapple should not prevent your unarmed attacks from counting as weapons.

Q2. P2-use applicable weapon bonuses for CMB; P1-unarmed strikes are weapons; P3 & P4-grapple is a hand attack (unarmed strike).

Q3. P5-as a separate action, each provokes an attack of opportunity; P4-you are using your hands to grapple; P3-a feat that prevents unarmed strikes from provoking attacks of opportunity is normally required before you can take the feat that prevents grapples from provoking attacks of opportunity. Grappling sounds like a hand attack, otherwise known as unarmed strike. It seems to me that not having Improved Unarmed Strike, but having Improved Grapple would cause grappling to provoke an attack of opportunity, not from the grapple itself, but because you are attacking with your hands, otherwise known as using an unarmed strike, which provokes an attack of opportunity without the applicable feat. Or I'm reading too much into things.

Reading more on combat maneuvers in the Core Rulebook pp. 198-201 it never states grapple as an attack so maybe I'm assuming too much by saying your grapple is a "hand attack". However, having Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite for Improved Grapple makes it appear to me that it is a hand attack because of P5 above.

I would appreciate some official ruling on this topic; please click the FAQ button by my post.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There's a feat here that lets you add your Dex to CMB, so I'd imagine weapon finesse doesn't.


mordion wrote:
There's a feat here that lets you add your Dex to CMB, so I'd imagine weapon finesse doesn't.

Finesse does let you do that to a degree, if its a weapon based. Like a Disarm. Because anything that modifiers your attack roll modifies those.

Still don't know about this case though.

Lantern Lodge

mordion wrote:
There's a feat here that lets you add your Dex to CMB, so I'd imagine weapon finesse doesn't.

Except as noted in the FAQ, this feat does not preclude other ways of adding DEX to CMB. For example, you can use Weapon Finesse OR Agile Maneuvers to add your Dex in place of Str in calculating your CMB for a trip using a finessable weapon.

Otherwise, I don't really have a posiition of the OP's question, though I do find it intriguing.


Note that if you use weapon finesse, you'll only use Dex to CMB when making attacks. Agile maneuvers lets you apply Dex to CMB all the time.

This can be relevant in some cases, where your CMB is used as part of a DC that an enemy rolls against.


I think one of your primary issues is that you're avoiding taking Improved Unarmed Strike. Showing us your full feat build would help to see what feats you can switch out if need be.

IUS means you threaten squares with unarmed strike, and your unarmed strike counts as a weapon for weapon purposes (like adding magic enhancement bonuses to CMB checks, such as grapple). Without IUS, you're pretty much forced to use grapple strictly as written with little leeway. If you take IUS, your unarmed strike would be a delivery weapon for grapple, instead of just being a normal guy trying to grapple another guy who is armed with a sword. With IUS as a delivery weapon, your Dex bonus (due to weapon finesse) would be one of the bonuses used to calculate CMB when using a weapon. Conversely, you could just take Agile Manuevers and not worry about IUS altogether.

I know it also says that "you only use weapon bonuses for XXX combat maneuvers", and grapple isn't one of them. Luckily it also has the GM Fiat line, "Of course, the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for {those other} maneuvers". Taking IUS would give you a better position for advocating to your GM that this is a case where weapon bonuses matter. It shows you invested a feat to do this, and I don't think being really good at attacking things with your bare hands is incidental to grappling; it's essential to it.

Stacking Dex if you decide to take IUS, Weapon Finesse and Agile Manuevers is a gray area for me. it's too late at night for me to look at it more closely, but answers to similar stacking questions can probably be found in Dex-based Trip builds.


The FAQ clarifies that if you're using a weapon to conduct a maneuver, you get whatever attack modifiers you have available to that weapon as a bonus to your maneuver roll. The FAQ also only specifically calls out sunder, disarm, and trip as maneuvers where Weapon Finesse applies, though. It does highlight Agile Maneuvers as an alternative.

However, there are other clearly weapon-based combat maneuvers other than those three; drag with some weapons or certain applications of dirty trick, for instance. I don't think it would be improper to apply Weapon Finesse in those cases. Considering that, Weapon Finesse does affect your unarmed strike. And while you're not necessarily striking them while grappling, you are using the same "weapon" to conduct the maneuver as you would in striking. I think Rendrin lays out these points well. It makes sense to me to allow grapple to work with Weapon Finesse.

Not to mention that Agile Maneuvers is kind of a trash feat overall and Weapon Finesse should just apply to every maneuver, anyway. How are you dextrous with a weapon but not your own body in general?

As for question 2, I suppose if you allow Agile Maneuvers to apply to question 1 under the ruling that modifiers to attacks apply to applicable maneuvers, you'd have to allow AoMF to apply to grapple as well. I think I'm fine with that.

For question 3, I don't know if I'd require IUS to avoid the AoO. There isn't a good analogue to regular weapons here. You don't provoke by attacking with a non-proficient weapon, for instance. I'm having trouble thinking of a situation where this would be a big deal, though. I can't really think of any classes that would grant free improved maneuvers without also giving or expecting IUS. Perhaps Rendrin has one in particular in mind.


Agile Maneuvers should just be part of Weapon Finesse, it's stupid making it a separate feat. Any CMB is using unarmed if not a weapon, and unarmed is STILL a finesseable weapon (till the devs decide monk needs more nerfing, at least...). The distinction is really dumb.

In any case, there are some weapons in UC that let you grapple with it if you crit, that at least would let you use dex, if any of them are finessable. Which they probably aren't. :(

Lantern Lodge

Hey, thanks for the responses everyone.

I actually didn't start this post because of a character I have or even have in mind, but I was reading through the FAQ and it actually created questions in my mind while it was answering some others.

I honestly don't know if it's possible to get Improved Grapple from a class that lets you skip the prerequisites, that's a hypothetical question for a situation that may or may not even exist. It was another question that popped up while I was thinking about this whole situation.

As far as home games it's easy to rule and I would probably stick with weapon finesse working with grapple, but I am trying to find some official stance because I have enjoyed the 4 PFS games I played in at Gencon and am considering running PFS games locally. In that case I don't know how much leeway A GM has and, while the purpose and focus of the game is to have fun and role play, I want to run a fair game and try to stay on the same plane as the rest of PFS out there in case my possible future players travel a bit.

In the case of Weapon Finesse vs Agile Maneuvers the former has some very specific restrictions, namely the limited weapon selection and that carrying a shield applies its armor check penalty to your attack rolls. By the wording of all pertaining documentation I don't think Weapon Finesse would work for the tie up action where the escape DC is 20 + your CMB. That's the only case I can think of where your CMB is not an attack, but there may be more.

I think I agree with what was mentioned above that Agile Maneuvers should be covered in Weapon Finesse and not a separate feat. And I had to just delete a ginormous paragraph on the old Weapon Finesse rant I've had since 3.0 as it was a bit off topic so I am going to stop here and end with the desire to have that official ruling please in case this comes up when I GM PFS games.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Grappling is typically not a Combat Maneuver made with a weapon, so Weapon Finesse will not apply. You have to have Agile maneuvers. You'll notice that in feats like Weapon Focus, grapple nad unarmed strike are called out separately because they're not the same thing. There was a huge thread not long ago centering around how the Amulet of Mighty Fists does / does not apply it's enmhancement bonus on a grapple.
The devs have weighed in on this before, I will dig around and see if I can find the thread.
At the end of the day though, Weapon Finesse does not apply to Grapple.


Yeah, getting Grab attack would be another way to grapple with a finessable weapon. In that case, a natural weapon.


It works with a whip and whip mastery feats.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Agile Maneuvers should just be part of Weapon Finesse, it's stupid making it a separate feat. Any CMB is using unarmed if not a weapon, and unarmed is STILL a finesseable weapon (till the devs decide monk needs more nerfing, at least...).

There is a good case for making Weapon Finesse a combat option for everyone, without requiring a feat.


I'd also be in favor of that route. I was going that way with my houserules before PF came out. Anyone can use dex to hit w/ light and finesse weapons w/o a feat; Finesse lets you use dex to hit with any other 1H weapon.


I have asked this question before on another thread and not received a reply.

One of the points made against Weapon Finesse working for grapple is that there is a separate Weapon Focus (Grapple) available and many consider that Unarmed Strike is not necessarily the "weapon" being used to effect the combat maneouver.

Personally, I think the answers should be

Q1: If you are using Unarmed Strike to do this, then Yes you can use Dex in place of Str for your CMB
Q2: If you are using Unarmed Strike to do this, then Yes the AoMF will affect your CMB
Q3: If you are using Unarmed Strike to do this then Yes, you will provoke an AOO

i.e. If you get to use Unarmed Strike as the "base weapon" then you get the benefits, and the penalties.

really it comes down to whether or not the Grapple is effected using the "Grapple" weapon or is part of the Unarmed Strike weapon's abilities...

Lantern Lodge

Ssalarn wrote:
The devs have weighed in on this before, I will dig around and see if I can find the thread.

That would be great Ssalarn.

Axl wrote:
There is a good case for making Weapon Finesse a combat option for everyone, without requiring a feat.

Yeah, ever since 3.0 that's been a house rule for me, but I try to balance it with the spirit of the feat. At character creation you have to choose whether dex or str applies to finesse weapons and if for some reason you want to change it in your career (Reincarnate perhaps) then you need a feat. If I was a master dagger fighter and I had a student who had a naturally high dexterity I think it would be logical to teach that person how to fight using their natural gifts from the beginning. In PFS though I have to accept it as a feat tax because AC, reflex saves, and a few skills is apparently so overpowered compared to higher base damage weapons, bonus damage, and carrying capacity that a feat is required to use a limited selection of weapons with your character's natural gifts.

That's one thing about the Improved Grapple feat, since it requires Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite it implies that to learn how to grapple you first need to learn how to strike unarmed, which further implies, to me at least, that you are using unarmed strike to grapple. I have been known to overthink things though and I might be reading too much into that.


ayronc wrote:

I have asked this question before on another thread and not received a reply.

One of the points made against Weapon Finesse working for grapple is that there is a separate Weapon Focus (Grapple) available and many consider that Unarmed Strike is not necessarily the "weapon" being used to effect the combat maneouver.

Personally, I think the answers should be

Q1: If you are using Unarmed Strike to do this, then Yes you can use Dex in place of Str for your CMB
Q2: If you are using Unarmed Strike to do this, then Yes the AoMF will affect your CMB
Q3: If you are using Unarmed Strike to do this then Yes, you will provoke an AOO

i.e. If you get to use Unarmed Strike as the "base weapon" then you get the benefits, and the penalties.

really it comes down to whether or not the Grapple is effected using the "Grapple" weapon or is part of the Unarmed Strike weapon's abilities...

My only disagreement would be with Q3. If you have Imp. Grapple, you are making a grapple check to grapple, not an unarmed strike, and Imp. Grapple means you don't provoke an AOO with grapple checks. If you just punch the dude without bothering to grapple, you would provoke the AOO. If you're the player and you offer to be subjected to AOO's, more power to you for taking the high road and adding some flavor. If you're the GM, I wouldn't throw AOO's at a character who has Imp. Grapple and hence ignore the biggest benefit of the feat.

You can make some pretty sick Tetori Monk builds if grappling is your thing, especially at level 15 when you get constrict which qualifies you for the Final Embrace feat (giving you the grab special quality w/out needing to blow ki points).


laarddrym wrote:
ayronc wrote:

I have asked this question before on another thread and not received a reply.

One of the points made against Weapon Finesse working for grapple is that there is a separate Weapon Focus (Grapple) available and many consider that Unarmed Strike is not necessarily the "weapon" being used to effect the combat maneouver.

Personally, I think the answers should be

Q1: If you are using Unarmed Strike to do this, then Yes you can use Dex in place of Str for your CMB
Q2: If you are using Unarmed Strike to do this, then Yes the AoMF will affect your CMB
Q3: If you are using Unarmed Strike to do this then Yes, you will provoke an AOO

i.e. If you get to use Unarmed Strike as the "base weapon" then you get the benefits, and the penalties.

really it comes down to whether or not the Grapple is effected using the "Grapple" weapon or is part of the Unarmed Strike weapon's abilities...

My only disagreement would be with Q3. If you have Imp. Grapple, you are making a grapple check to grapple, not an unarmed strike, and Imp. Grapple means you don't provoke an AOO with grapple checks. If you just punch the dude without bothering to grapple, you would provoke the AOO. If you're the player and you offer to be subjected to AOO's, more power to you for taking the high road and adding some flavor. If you're the GM, I wouldn't throw AOO's at a character who has Imp. Grapple and hence ignore the biggest benefit of the feat.

You can make some pretty sick Tetori Monk builds if grappling is your thing, especially at level 15 when you get constrict which qualifies you for the Final Embrace feat (giving you the grab special quality w/out needing to blow ki points).

Your argument seems to hinge on unarmed strikes provoking and improved grapple not, but that's not the case. Improved grapple requires improved unarmed strike, which makes your unarmed strikes not provoke either.


Atarlost, in the OP it says "If I have the Improved Grapple feat from a class ability that allows me to take it without meeting the prerequisites and I do not have Improved Unarmed Strike would I provoke an attack of opportunity?"

If you can get Improved Grapple through a class feature where it specifically says you don't need the pre-reqs, then you would not need IUS. Off the top of my head I can't think of a class/archetype that does it, but in the theoretical situation the OP described what I answered holds true. (Or at least I think it should).

Lantern Lodge

Yeah, that situation is completely theoretical and might not even be possible; I cannot think of any specific examples myself.


However, under the descriptions of grapple, you have the option to use unarmed, light, or one handed weapons with the grapple check.

Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple.

Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.

Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.

So if I have weapon finesse, and do damage with a dagger, I get to use my dex, but if I have weapon finesse, and use an unarmed strike, I don't?

Lantern Lodge

That is an option to injure an opponent while already grappled. My questions were aiming at the CMB for the check to start the grapple. I already listed a specific citation where unarmed strikes are considered light weapons and that unarmed strikes would therefore fall under Weapon Finesse. I don't think your question was a previous contention by anyone else eiher. Sorry TGMaxMaxer, I guess I'm confused as to where your question came from.


Actually, I was just poking at one of the earlier posts that said finesse doesn't apply because it's not a weapon strike.

I agree that it should be a no brainer, falling under the "other situations where you use a finesse weapon (unarmed in this case) to perform the manuever."

Lantern Lodge

Ah, hehe.

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