Eliminating Stat Boost Items


Advice


I have been reading a lot of threads regarding magic items, how to reign them in, make them more unique / special / rare, etc.

I like the ideas, and I want my next campaign to have a better feel to it (no Bob's Magic Emporium).

With regards to "Stat Boost" items, I had the following idea:

Remove items with statistic enhancements, and rather than give characters a stat increase every four levels, give them an increase every two levels.

It seems that this would allow them more flexibility in how they progress and keep them from needing the items.

Have any of you done something like this in your games?


I just don't give out stat booting items :) 80% of my treasure is randomly rolled, and rarely do my PCs have time to sit around and wait for custom items. But then again, none of my players are over-optimized, and neither do I run my adversaries "overclocked" as it were, so I may not be the best example.


Firstbourne wrote:

I have been reading a lot of threads regarding magic items, how to reign them in, make them more unique / special / rare, etc.

I like the ideas, and I want my next campaign to have a better feel to it (no Bob's Magic Emporium).

With regards to "Stat Boost" items, I had the following idea:

Remove items with statistic enhancements, and rather than give characters a stat increase every four levels, give them an increase every two levels.

It seems that this would allow them more flexibility in how they progress and keep them from needing the items.

Have any of you done something like this in your games?

I love the idea, but I'd personally modify it a bit. +1 every 2 levels is equal to +10 to (potentially) a single stat. That's the regular +5 you get from levels and then a +5 item. The problem is that most, if not all characters tend to rely on more than one stat and usually end up with at least a couple +stat items. Wizards, the notorious single stat class, still need a fair bit of Dexterity & Constitution to live comfortably with their lame AC, meager attack bonus, and pitiful hit die.

I'd change it to +1 to two different stats every 2 levels. This will be a powerful boost to your characters, but will appear gradually and allow your players to level out potentially lopsided builds. It also removes a large amount of dependence on magic items to boost effectiveness, which is really where I think you're going with this whole thing anyways.


Firstbourne wrote:

I have been reading a lot of threads regarding magic items, how to reign them in, make them more unique / special / rare, etc.

Have any of you done something like this in your games?

No, I don't tend to think of it along those lines.

There are magic items that are more mundane so to speak, and then there are, indeed, special magic items. That seems to serve both masters.

If you are going to change expectations then you want to make sure that you don't skew things too badly.

For example you will want to look over all the spells that replicate these items. Are you making them that much more powerful or should you eliminate them as well?

How are you going to effect PCs that need multiple stats vs those that need only one?

I would suggest against it, but rather detail out what you really desire as an end result and don't take your eye off the prize there. Don't confuse one thing with another. Do you want fewer magic items or do you want a class of magic items to be special?

Just be aware that whatever changes you make will have ripples. Prepare for them ahead of time or you will disrupt the continuity of your campaign by having to do your homework in class rather than the night before.

-James


james maissen wrote:
Firstbourne wrote:

I have been reading a lot of threads regarding magic items, how to reign them in, make them more unique / special / rare, etc.

Have any of you done something like this in your games?

No, I don't tend to think of it along those lines.

There are magic items that are more mundane so to speak, and then there are, indeed, special magic items. That seems to serve both masters.

If you are going to change expectations then you want to make sure that you don't skew things too badly.

For example you will want to look over all the spells that replicate these items. Are you making them that much more powerful or should you eliminate them as well?

How are you going to effect PCs that need multiple stats vs those that need only one?

I would suggest against it, but rather detail out what you really desire as an end result and don't take your eye off the prize there. Don't confuse one thing with another. Do you want fewer magic items or do you want a class of magic items to be special?

Just be aware that whatever changes you make will have ripples. Prepare for them ahead of time or you will disrupt the continuity of your campaign by having to do your homework in class rather than the night before.

-James

The spells that replicate the items (Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, etc) have limited durations - they don't bother me.

PC's that need multiple stats? I don't believe any PC has to have 18s or 20s in a stat to be effective. I don't want to get sidetracked, but this goes back to roleplaying vs. rollplaying and coming to the table to engage in collaborative storytelling rather than just number crunching.

People have said that the D&D system and all of its variants are item dependent and that if a GM doesn't like it he/she should run a different game. I disagree.

I believe the game can be played without every character needing a deflection ring, a stat belt, a resistance cloak, and a natural armor amulet.

As far as the ripples of change - I expect there to be some. If the PCs don't have stat belts and headbands, neither do the NPCs, but they will still have ways of increasing their stats.

Liberty's Edge

I'll refer you to this post. It talks about using point buy for the stats gained after level 1 (and giving out more points to compensate) in addition to changing the stat boost items to point buy increases. This prevents people from getting as high in their good stats and makes those items more useful for those who lack in that area since it boosts them more. "Me? An Archwizard using a headband of intellect? I scoff at the very suggestion! Give it to Thogg, over there. Lord knows he could use a little 'inspiration.'"

Not quite what you're looking for, but combine that with increasing the rarity of magic items (shut down the magic-marts across the world) and you should be fine.

Dark Archive

actually giving a stat boost every level and 2 at every 4 levels ends up about right. its the same as belt of +6 to 3 stats and a single +5 tome. just rule that you cant raise the same stat 2 levels in a row.e


Just to clarify my view of things first.
Stat boosting items are there for a reason, cause after a while you need something to penetrate that DR and custom made items need a lot of time to get (couple of months at least, its not like there is 15 high level wizards waiting to do all of items you desire and even than it can take a month or more for them to actually make an item) and stat boosters aren't really that custom compared to +1 keen flaming burst adamantine greataxe for example - and this weapon is even cheaper to get than a +6 stat, true not by much (35320 vs 36000) but in and of itself every armor and weapon are a lot more custom (size, specific enchantments, specific weapons, specific materials) than any wondrous item(yes even amulet of mighty fists) just cause 99% of wondrous items are premade without worries will someone like what they do, there ain't +4,1 bonus on stat or hand of glory showing middle finger (all through i think you can make it show a middle finger without crafting it like that, you just have to be extra careful while clenching other 4 fingers)

Again off topic, roleplay vs rollplay, D20 favors rollplay, just check for which one there is more options - items, spells, class abilities.

Just to clarify, i am not pro rollplay, just saying that the system is heavily favoring rollplay.

And if you wish to remove stat boosters AND IF your players agree with you, go right ahead. You don't need to compensate one god damn thing, cause they don't exist for one reason or another and so enemies nor NPC's have access to them either, making PC's stronger compared to most enemies. Why ? Simply they got stat boosting spells and some of them would actually be viable and taken instead of laughed at (Mass stat boosting spells i am looking at you) while most enemies do not posses that ability.


Zoddy wrote:

Just to clarify my view of thins first.

Stat boosting items are there for a reason, cause after a while you need something to penetrate that DR and custom made items either need a lot of time to get (couple of months at least, its not like there is 15 high level wizards waiting to do all of items you desire and even than it can take a month or more for them to actually make an item) and stat boosters aren't really that custom compared to +1 keen flame burst adamantine greataxe for example - and this weapon is even cheaper to get than a +6 stat, true not by much (35320 vs 36000) but in and of itself every armor and weapon are a lot more custom (size, specific enchantments, specific weapons, specific materials) than any wondrous item(yes even amulet of mighty fists) just cause 99% of wondrous items are premade, there ain't +4,1 bonus on stat or hand of glory showing middle finger (all through i think you can make it show a middle finger without crafting it like that, you just have to be extra careful while clenching other 4 fingers)

What DR is penetrated by high stats? I have never seen DR 10 / 22+STR

Zoddy wrote:

Again off topic, roleplay vs rollplay, D20 favors rollplay, just check for which one there is more options - items, spells, classes.

Just to clarify, i am not pro rollplay, just saying that the system is heavily favoring rollplay.

Believe me, I understand how much D20 favors numbers over role-playing. I happen to like the Pathfinder APs and as I am an older gamer now, I no longer have the time to craft custom campaigns or adventures. So, I try to find ways to make the system better (for me and my players).


Firstbourne wrote:
What DR is penetrated by high stats? I have never seen DR 10 / 22+STR

I think he means that, if you don't have the right DR breaker, a high STR score serves to mitigate some of DR soak. Does that make sense?

Curious, maybe you stated it somewhere and I just missed it, but why are singling out stat boosters?


loaba wrote:
Firstbourne wrote:
What DR is penetrated by high stats? I have never seen DR 10 / 22+STR

I think he means that, if you don't have the right DR breaker, a high STR score serves to mitigate some of DR soak. Does that make sense?

Curious, maybe you stated it somewhere and I just missed it, but why are singling out stat boosters?

I singled out stat boosters because I had an idea to offset their loss (in my original post).

The other items (magic weapons, armor, etc.) can be fixed in other ways. I was just looking for feedback on using a different stat increase pattern to offset the loss of +stat items.


I have used a house rule granting a +1 bonus to one stat every even numbered character level for some years now with few problems (one particular bard aside). My current house rules limit the maximum ability score before racial and ageing nodifers) to 20. This prevents players putting all their eggs in one basket and makes them feel better at the same time.

By the way, in my latest campaign (currently in planning) I am getting rid of stat boosters as well...


Firstbourne wrote:
I singled out stat boosters because I had an idea to offset their loss (in my original post).

Okay, after reading it (yeah, yeah), uhm, isn't that a good way to give players a ridiculously high stat of choice? And it would permanent, too.


loaba wrote:
Firstbourne wrote:
I singled out stat boosters because I had an idea to offset their loss (in my original post).
Okay, after reading it (yeah, yeah), uhm, isn't that a good way to give players a ridiculously high stat of choice? And it would permanent, too.

If I had terrible players who min maxed, yes - I would be concerned.

But, seeing as how my players are more story driven, nah.

Liberty's Edge

In my games we do the "every even level" thing for stats, but no two consecutive gains can be in the same stat. That means that if you put your level 2 stat into Int, you must then do so at 6, 10, 14 and 18 if you want to get the maximum potential into int. Any lapse will lower your maximum increase to 4. This helps out MAD characters a little with comparatively small (but still noticeable) benefit to SAD characters.

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