Looking for Build Advice - How do I Optimize a Kitsune Rogue?


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Dark Archive

Hi guys,

First off, I feel I should note - this is my first time posting on these forums, and only my fourth month playing Pathfinder in general. I've got a decent amount of experience with RPGs, but I still find the sheer number of options in Pathfinder a bit overwhelming at times.

That typed, recently I signed on for a PF home game with some friends my brother and I met during PFS organized play. We had a party vote, and decided to do a run through the Skull & Shackles Adventure Path.

Now, since this isn't going to be "official" PFS play, the GM is letting us use some of the more exotic races, and I'm dead set on playing a Kitsune. I chose Kitsune in particular because I think the race sounds cool, and they have a pretty nifty racial rogue archetype - the Kitsune Trickster - which I want to utlize for it's awesome party face potential (you get to add your Intelligence score in ADDITION to your base stat scores on Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Disguise checks!).

Now, I also realize that Rogues aren't exactly a "strong" class option in PF. Luckily our GM realizes this too. He's house ruled the following changes:

• In addition to the standard levels, rogues gain rogue talents at 5th, 7th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 17th, and 19th. This may mean they gain two rogue talents in a level.
• Rogues may take feats that modify sneak attack as rogue talents. Prerequisites must still be met.

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Factoring that into the basic level progression of a Kitsune Trickster, the level breakdown looks something like this (my apologies for any formatting issues):

1st: Sneak attack +1d6, Kitsune’s Guile
2nd: Evasion, rogue talent
3rd: Sneak attack +2d6, Kitsune’s Charm 1/day
4th: Rogue talent, uncanny dodge
5th: Sneak attack +3d6, rogue talent
6th: Rogue talent, Kitsune’s Charm 2/day
7th: Sneak attack +4d6, rogue talent
8th: Improved uncanny dodge, rogue talent
9th: Sneak attack +5d6, Kitsune’s Charm 3/day
10th: Advanced talents, rogue talent
11th: Sneak attack +6d6, rogue talent
12th: Rogue talent, Kitsune’s Charm 4/day
13th: Sneak attack +7d6, rogue talent
14th: Rogue talent, rogue talent
15th: Sneak attack +8d6, Kitsune’s Charm 5/day
16th: Rogue talent, rogue talent
17th: Sneak attack +9d6, rogue talent
18th: Rogue talent, Kitsune’s Charm 6/day
19th: Sneak attack +10d6, rogue talent
20th: Master strike, rogue talent

With all that taken into consideration, I'm trying to make a Kitsune Trickster with a pirate theme (because, c'mon - you can't play Skull & Shackles and not be a pirate!). I want him to be a party face (because I love being a diplomancer), a skill monkey (to help fill any gaps in the party's skill spreads), but I'd also like him to be useful in combat (at least to some extent - after all, I realize I might not be as good as a Barbarian for instance, but I still want to feel like I'm contributing in the fights).

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That's why I was hoping I could pick the brains of some of the more experienced players on the boards.

My main question is this - how can I optimize this character?

Which rogue talents are best (and should I take any ninja talents)?

Which feats are best (for combat, as well as role-playing encounters)?

Are the Kitsune-specific feats any good (like the tail thing)?

Should I take the Scout Archetype, or keep my Uncanny Dodge?

Any advice on class dips (for instance, I'm highly considering taking a point in Mysterious Stranger, as MS is Charisma-based and Focused Aim seems like a nice lvl 1 Deed)?

I'd also like this character to have a pet parrot of some kind - though whether the parrot will be mundane, an animal companion, or a familiar is still up in the air... Any ideas of what my best options would be for making my parrot dreams a reality?

Finally (and possibly most importantly), we'll be using a 20 point-buy system in S&S - but I'm finding it hard to decide on the best stat spread, as pretty much every stat is useful to some extent for a social rogue. Any advice on what the best stat spread would be for this character? I'm currently leaning towards the following:

STR: 10 DEX: 16 CON: 10 INT: 16 WIS: 8 CHA: 16

This would give me +3 on Dex, Int, and Cha (+6 base on my Diplomacy, Bluff, and Disguise), but it also means I'm going to be squishy, and my Wis will also suffer a bit (though I'll still have a +2 base on Sense Motive - which is respectable). I'm still not sure about this spread though. Any thoughts?

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Overall, I know I might have given you guys a little too much information here, but I'm just looking for any helpful advice in general. I'm really excited to play this character, but I know that rogues tend to be on the weaker side in terms of class power - so I'm hoping you guys can help me find a way to make him work well (in combat, as well as in RP encounters).

Thanks for your time guys, and this should go without saying, but while giving advice, please don't give away any spoilers about the Skull & Shackles adventure if you can help it.

Thanks again!

(:

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Well, Weapon Finesse and TWF are obvious if you wish to contribute in combat. If willing to wait till 2nd level for Weapon Finesse and 3rd for TWF you can even get Weapon Finesse as a Rogue Talent. Other Feats you're likely gonna want: Iron Will, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Lunge, Realistic Likeness (because looking like whoever you want to is awesome), Swift Kitsune Shapechanger (as a prerequisite for Vulpine Pounce), Vulpine Pounce (See below...also, it's Pounce), maybe some of the other Kitsune only Feats. Possibly some Combat Maneuver Feats at some point if you want to dabble in that (Feinting is a thing). Possibly a Skill Focus if you want to be really good at a particular skill.

I also highly recommend the Scout Archetype, it's good in its own right (most turns you aren't Flanking you'll be moving, getting you Sneak Attack all the time), and more importantly, it combines brilliantly with the Kitsune-only Feat Vulpine Pounce, which you can grab at 14th level with the 'Feat' Rogue Talent. That point is a long way away, and you may never reach it, but Pounce + Sneak Attack is a terrific combination, and not to be missed if already planning on a Kitsune Rogue.

More generally, most Ninja Tricks aren't worth it to Rogues as they lack the Ki Pool to make effective use of the good ones (which are almost all Ki Powered). Some of my favorite Rogue Talents are as follows:

Major Magic (well worth it for Chill Touch...touch attacks equal to your level you can apply Sneak Attack to? Yes, please, even if it does require the less shiny Minor Magic), Combat Trick, Weapon Training, Finesse Rogue (if you're willing to wait for it), Fast Stealth, Trap Spotter (if you want to dabble in Trapfinding), Offensive Defense, Survivalist (if you want Heal and Survival as Class Skills), Terrain Mastery (Water should cover most of your stuff, and enables Hide In Plain Sight),

For Advanced Talents:

Feat, Crippling Strike, Improved Evasion, Skill Mastery, Dispelling Attack (This is phenomenal, with as many Rogue Talents as you get, take it), Opportunist, Hard Minded, Weapon Snatcher (So very nice if focused on a bit...less so otherwise), and of course Hide In Plain Sight. And Familiar if you want a Parrot (since Rogue Talents are your cheapest asset at the moment given your sheer number of them).

Stat-wise, I'd personally go as follows:

Str 8 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 16

The lost Int hurts a little, but increase in survivability with greater Dex and Con is worth it. The lost Strength reduces damage by a whole point, and not even that once you get Agile Weapons.

In terms of dips...honestly? I'd be more inclined to do a Kitsune of some other class with Rogue as a dip (even if it is the first couple of levels taken) than vice versa. That said, Oracle of Waves for Water Sight plus Obscuring Mist is a classic for getting Sneak Attack, will get you a +2 to Will Saves and a little healing to boot (or at least the ability to use CLW wands sans UMD), and is pretty solid thematically for Skull and Shackles. Curse-wise, I'm a big fan of Legalistic, which will net you even more social benefits eventually.

Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Notes on Rogue Archetypes:
— Scout stacks with Kitsune Trickster. The archetype's ability to let you sneak attack whenever you A) charge or B) move more than 10 feat is excellent.
— You lose Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge in the above trade, however. Skulls and Shackles might have a fair number of rogues (considering it's all about pirates), so the sneak attack protection could be missed at 8th level.

Notes on Kitsune Feats:
— Realistic Likeness is powerful. Crazy-powerful. The ability to alter self into any human you've met before can be ridiculously good. Especially with how that adventure starts.
— Vulpine Pounce is good, especially if you take the aforementioned Scout archetype. Getting a full attack on your pounce is nice.

Notes on Feats in General:
— Personally, I don't think Two-Weapon Fighting is worth the investment on a rogue. The extra attacks look nice in paper, but statistically (and in practice) you're reducing your already low chance to hit. Two-handed weapons are all-around stronger for rogue characters in my experience.
— To that end, I recommend the tried and true Feint + Vital Strike combo. Simply put, you grab Improved Feint to feint during combat as a move action and then Vital Strike the bajeebus out of your target, doubling your weapon damage nice. At the level in which you get Vital Strike, you're only going to have two attacks anyway and that attack for +1 is probably going to miss. You lose out on damage from modifiers, but in the end I think it's worth it.
— If you decide to go Scout, the Spring Attack feats aren't a horrible investment, although they tend to be costly. Note that you cannot use Vital Strike during a Spring Attack, however. I'd pick one or the other and you certainly don't NEED Spring Attack to make good use of the Scout archetype.
— I think you're really going to be hurting for damage if you leave your Strength score at 10. That's no modifiers and no Power Attack, the later of which makes a huge difference. Personally, I always buy at least a 14 Strength for my Kitsune, which is modified down to a 12 for them. That allows me to put my 4th Level ability point into Strength so I can grab Power Attack by 5th level. (Or 4th level when I'm playing a fighter).

Notes on Rogue Talents:
— Offensive Defensive is the most powerful Rogue Talent there is. It starts off being as strong as the Dodge feat and scales to the point where it is literally 10 times better. It gives you a +1 dodge bonus per sneak attack die you possess against foes that you've sneak attacked. For a lightly armored character, this is amazing.
— While grabbing a ki pool is certainly helpful for a kitsune rogue, the one bestowed by the Rogue Talent is pretty underhwelming. Unless you REALLY feel the need to go invisible, I wouldn't touch it.
— You've mentioned that you'd thought about taking a parrot familiar. There's a rogue talent for that, but it's a 10th level talent and requires you to take major and minor magic as rogue talents. Picking up vanish as a major magic talent might not be too bad, but minor magic is pretty terrible as far as rogue talents go. The alternative is to take Skill Focus (any Knowledge) and then Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bloodline, which would give you a familiar as a wizard of your level –2 as opposed to the rogue talent's –4. If you do decide to grab the familiar, look into taking the Valet Familiar and the Feint Partner teamwork feat. That way, your familiar could feint and you'd get the bonus. It's a lot of effort, but it could be neat to take that one feat instead of Combat Expertise and Improved Feint, though you'd likely want Evolved Familiar: Reach so your familiar wouldn't need to enter a creature's space in order to feint. Again, not a hugely attractive option for your build, but it's still an option.

Notes on Playing Kitsune:
— I've played two kitsune thus far, one to level 9 in a homebrew campaign and the other to level 5 in Wrath of the Righteous (both are ongoing).
Here are my thoughts on what I call the "True Form Reveal."
Here are some more thoughts on the topic.

Notes on Playing Rogues:
— I write a blog called Everyman Gaming. I've written two articles assessing the damage output and utility of the rogue class. If you're interested, you can find the links below.
Oh, Rogues Part I
Oh, Rogues Part II

Happy gaming!


DeadmanWalking and Alexander have definitely provided some good information. I just want to highlight a few things they said that I full agree with.

First, your will saves are horrible as a rogue with 8 Wisdom, Iron Will is a must and dippig into Oracle is a really good option as it allows you to see through obscuring mist after you cast it, allowing you to sneak attack and gain concealment from enemies at the same time.

Second, the Scout archetype is great and probably the easiest way to bump up your combat ability. This was you don't have to worry too much about tumbling through the enemy lines to get a flank position where A) you will likely be closer than the barbarian for your enemies to smash and B) that barbarian will likely full-attack smash whatever enemy you jsut got into flanking position with before you get a chance to full-attack sneak on them.

Taking the Major Magic talent with Vanish truly takes away any real reason to get the ki powers, otherwise just make a ninja. Offensive Defense is also just a fantastic talent, especially with Scout since you should be getting a sneak attack chance on every round (you may still miss and lose out :/)

Finally, TWF is very feat-intensive for little usable gain. Like I mentioned earlier, by the time you get into flanking position, the target will be dead shortly. If you get a full-round of sneak attacks once per session I would be suprised.

All in all, enjoy your class. I find playing rogues to be a joy even if they have lower power within battle. It is more mentally engaging to strategize how you are not going to die and still inflict damage rather than, Rage! Hulk Smash! until everything is dead. But thats just me.


One thing to seriously consider is a level or Wizard or Sorcerer for the character. That dip opens up all kinds of possibilities - like Cantrips, a Familiar, the ability to use spell trigger items like Wands of Vanish and a host of useful spells like Charm Person or Silent Image.

The Kitsune feat Realistic Likeness has also proven to be invaluable in the past.

Dark Archive

Wow. Thanks guys! I didn't expect I'd get such great responses so quickly.

I was leaning towards the idea of getting Realistic Likeness as my Lvl 1 feat. I think I'm definitely doing that now. I've heard too much positive feedback about that one racial feat to not take it.

I think I also will go the Scout route.

I'll have to look at Wizards, Sorcerers, and Oracles of the Waves in more depth too. I'm not normally much of a magic-user, and that's why I wasn't really considering any of them before now - but I'll have to check that out.

Any thoughts on taking the dip in Mysterious Stranger though? I feel like it has potential, since if I can catch opponents flat-footed with a gun, (and if this combo works the way I think it does) I'd be hitting the bad guys at AC 10 (flat-footed + touch AC?).


I'm actually currently running a Kitsune-like character in a Skulls&Shackles campaign. I went with Ninja over Rogue, and took both the Kitsune Trickster and Scout archetypes (replacing poison use, no trace, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge). Since the only real loss would be Evasion, I'd recommend using Ninja over Rogue since it will have a slightly easier time in combat and you're Cha will already be high for Ki. I also would advice against dipping classes because postponing your advanced talents hurts.

For stats I wouldn't roll with 10 Con, ever. In your case since you're building finesse I'd go with a 10/16/13/14/10/16, or a similar stat spread.

Definitely invest in the Kitsune racial feats. Realistic Likeness is great for infiltration, but definitely remember to invest into Bluff or perhaps Perform (act) to help assist your Disguise checks (if your GM allows). Fox Shape is an excellent scouting tool due to having a Tiny size (+8 to stealth yes please) and having Scent. Swift Shapechange is great when you can get it so you can shift as a swift, and it leads into Vulpine Pounce, which has amazing synergy with the scout archetype. Avoid the Magical Tail feats, they aren't all that great.

If you want a familiar, the Minor and Major Magic rogue talents are the way to go. A ranged touch cantrip is nice since you can sneak attack off it, but spells like Prestidigitation are amazingly useful. For major magic, I would recommend something like Shield, since it's a +4 Shield bonus to AC which can make a difference (the blocking magic missiles is also a nice bonus). These feats open up into the Familiar advanced rogue talent and also the Dispelling Sneak rogue talent, which is great.

Offensive Defensive is a must have talent for keeping you alive and scales nicely. If ninja, Vanishing Trick and Invisible Blade are must haves. Fast Stealth is very useful. If a ninja, Forgotten Trick can really make you adaptable to different situations (a Ring of Ki Mastery makes this even better).

Since you're a kitsune, you can take the alternate racial favored class bonus to get more talents/tricks. On my ninja I took HP for levels 1-4, and then the alternate for 5-10 so I could take two advanced ninja tricks at level 10. But considering you've got so many bonus talents, you can go all HP for favored class bonus.

There are some great ninja tricks that don't rely on Ki, such as Wall Climber (a climb speed in a campaign with ships is amazingly useful, I can say from experience), Unarmed Combat Training, Deflect Arrows, Pressure Points, and if you have any combat maneuver feats Redirect Force (a new trick recently added). I would check with your GM if you can take advanced ninja tricks via advanced rogue talents like the ninja can with rogue talents, since the Assassinate trick is great, and Unarmed Combat Mastery is pretty potent if you're going unarmed.

For combat feats, since you're building finesse, you've got a few options. Two weapon fighting is an obvious choice, but is feat intensive, but can make a full attack on a charge very dangerous. From this you could go with a Two Weapon Feint focus for getting sneak attack when you can't flank, charge, or move 10 feet. The Sap Adept -> Sap Master feat line is very potent, and doing non-lethal damage as a pirate is beneficial (you want to capture crew, right?). If Two Weapon Fighting isn't your thing, you could always go with a one handed dervish build and get imp./gr. feint, but that limits you to a single attack per round. Another option, if you build up some good Intimidate, is the Weapon Focus -> Dazzling Display -> Shatter Defenses feat line, in addition to the Enforcer feat, which when combined with a Cruel weapon is a fantastic debuff tool and lets you get sneak attack. Another thing to note is enemies with Uncanny Dodge will be your worst nightmare, since they turn off sneak attack completely with the exception of feinting. Another nice feat is Arcane Strike, which you will qualify for as a Kitsune, and gives a nice bonus to damage and lets you bypass magic DR easily (it also applies to your bite).

Lemme Sum Up:
Scout Archetype + Vulpine Pounce can be devastating
IMO Ninja > Rogue
Tiny Fox Form is amazing for Scouting/Stealth
Diversify your ways to get Sneak Attack (scout archetype, flanking, feinting, shatter defenses, invisibility)
Uncanny Dodge is the bane of all Ninjas/Rogues
Never forget to bite (unless you're trying to stay disguised)
Do what you want (cause a pirate is free).

Sczarni

Realistic Likeness should be mandatory for Face types who happen to be of the vulpine persuasion.

Since you get a great number of additional feats, I would be more than half tempted to go with the wonderful Dervish Dance and focus on a single weapon. It is worth asking your GM if you can re-skin the feat to cover whichever weapon you will be using most.

I second Vulpine Pounce. It is just that good.

I also second anything that lets you shape shift into common animals, such as foxes. A small or tiny fox skulking about is much less a threat than a person. Depending on your area, it may be completely invisible for all intents and purposes.

I haven't played Skull and Shackles, so I cannot offer any specific advice, but I would recommend squeezing in Profession (Sailor) and Swim if they are not already among your skills.


A few things about Skulls and Shackles and Skills (since I am running a Kitsune-like Ninja through it) :

Profession (Sailor) is very important, and hope that one of your party member's has high Wis for the Prof. and Perception checks.

Diplomacy is king, and focusing on being a face with all your bonuses will help tremendously. Bluff as well.

Swim is important, and since you have a low Str score, you'll want to dump a few ranks into it so you at least can't fail to keep your head up.

Climb is pretty important, but if you take the Ninja Trick to get a climb speed, it becomes an non-issue, and actually opens up a lot of tactical advantages of being able to scale things with ease.

Another important thing to note is Tiny creatures use Dex for climb and swim checks, so shifting to Fox form, getting +4 to Dex and using Dex for swim could save you if you need it (just don't get eaten :D).

Contributor

XandZero2 wrote:
Any thoughts on taking the dip in Mysterious Stranger though? I feel like it has potential, since if I can catch opponents flat-footed with a gun, (and if this combo works the way I think it does) I'd be hitting the bad guys at AC 10 (flat-footed + touch AC?).

Eh. It's hard to deny someone their Dexterity bonus to AC with a ranged attack. Feinting is melee-only (unless you take that new Gun Twirling grit feat from Champions of Balance) and you can't flank with ranged attacks. Shatter Defenses is reliable, but it doesn't work on anything that can't be demoralized or afflicted with a fear effect. I don't think it's great personally, but it could work for you. Mysterious Stranger is an extremely dipable archetype.

Sovereign Court

I would definitely go Dervish Dance over TWF, particularly if you're going with Scout. Trust me when I say that stacking -2s on a character with 3/4 BAB and no class-based boost to attack is NOT a good idea, nor is having a character in light armor and d8 hit die hang out and trade full attacks with monsters. Even if you can't go Dervish, I would still just use a light weapon and Piranha Strike. See if your GM will let you use a cutlass - it has the exact same stats as a scimitar.

Honestly, I prefer Rogue as a splash rather than the full class, but YMMV. If you're OK with being much more useful outside the battlefield than in it, go right ahead and play a Rogue - they do make fine swashbucklers.

PS: Fox Shape is AWESOME! Take that as soon as you can.

Dark Archive

Hi again everybody!

Well, I read over everything everyone had to say so far, and I'm back with a first draft at a level progression chart for my Kitsune Rogue. Here's what I'm thinking of right now:

1st Lvl - Sneak attack +1d6, Kitsune’s Guile, 1st feat - Realistic Likeness

2nd Lvl - Evasion, rogue talent – Weapon Finesse

3rd Lvl - Sneak attack +2d6, Kitsune’s Charm 1/day,
2nd feat – Skill Focus: Diplomacy/Improved Initiative/
Ninja Trick: Wall Climber

4th Lvl - Rogue talent – Sap Adept, Scout’s Charge, 1st Ability
Score Increase

5th Lvl - Sneak attack +3d6, rogue talent – Weapon Focus: Sap,
3rd feat – Dazzling Display

6th Lvl - Rogue talent – Shatter Defenses, Kitsune’s Charm 2/day

7th Lvl - Sneak attack +4d6, rogue talent – Offensive Defense,
4th feat – Fox Shape

8th Lvl - Skirmisher, rogue talent – Sap Master,
2nd Ability Score Increase

9th Lvl - Sneak attack +5d6, Kitsune’s Charm 3/day, 5th feat – Swift
Kitsune Shapechanger

10th Lvl - Advanced talents, rogue talent – Redirect Attack

11th Lvl - Sneak attack +6d6, rogue talent – Resiliency,
6th feat – Two Weapon Fighting

12th Lvl - Rogue talent – Minor Magic, Kitsune’s Charm 4/day,
3rd Ability Score Increase

13th Lvl - Sneak attack +7d6, rogue talent – Major Magic,
7th feat – Improved Two Weapon Fighting

14th Lvl - Rogue talent - Familiar, rogue talent – Vulpine Pounce

15th Lvl - Sneak attack +8d6, Kitsune’s Charm 5/day,
8th feat – Evolved Familiar? Opening Volley? Persuasive?
Enforcer?

16th Lvl - Rogue talent – Get Away Artist, rogue talent – Get Away
Master, 4th Ability Score Increase

17th Lvl - Sneak attack +9d6, rogue talent – Skill Mastery, 9th feat
Evolved Familiar? Opening Volley? Persuasive?
Enforcer?

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I'm only focusing on levels 1-17 because that's the official level range for Skull & Shackles I believe.

I decided to pick up the Scout archetype first off. I also decided to wait until lvl 2 to get Weapon Finesse, as Realistic Likeness just looks like it'd be way too much fun to not pick up from the very beginning.

I'm not sure what would be best to pick up as my second feat. Considering I'm the party face, an extra boost to Diplomacy might be nice, but Wall Climber does sound really good, and Improved Initiative could be handy too (even Combat Reflexes - Gah! So many choices!)

After realizing from this thread just how good Saps can be with Rogues, I'm also going to try and take the Sap Master and Shatter Defenses line of feats - aiming to get the fully lethal combo by level 8.

*Remember, my GM is allowing Rogues to take sneak attack feats as rogue talents.

I'm not sure if I should try to get the Sap Master ability even sooner (I could technically get it as soon as level 5 - but then I would have to wait for Shatter Defenses, which looks really nice on a rogue).

I'm not a big fan of the idea of waiting until lvl 7 to get Offensive Defense (as that seems like a long while to survive without it) but then again, I could also pick up Sap Master a level earlier if I want to wait until lvl 8 for OD...

You guys also sold me on the other Kitsune feats, so I'm going to try to get all of them asap.

10th and 11th levels are going to be devoted to getting more survival-based talents (though maybe I should put more priority on getting those earlier?).

I'm leaning towards the idea of dabbling in the first two links of Two Weapon Fighting by lvl 13 (I know it's pretty highly debated which is best - two weapon fighting or Dervish Dance, but I feel that adding my Dex to damage isn't as big of a deal when I'll hopefully be dealing a ton of damage with each Sap Master swing - at least on the right opponent). I might still trade out something for Two-Weapon Feint, or remove all the Two-Weapon Fighting feats for something more roleplay oriented altogether (like Skill Focuses or the like).

I'll finally have my familiar by level 14, and from there I'm not sure exactly what I'll get - but it'll probably be highly dependent on how the campaign's played out up to that point. I'm thinking a +10 to drive checks (thanks to Get Away Master) might come in handy when steering a ship. Otherwise though, the last levels will definitely the most subject to change.

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Now, considering all this, I'd still love to find a way to fit an Oracle of the Waves lvl 1 dip into my build somehow. It sounds like a really nice combo with a rogue - but I'm also hesitant to slow my BAB and sneak attack progression - as well as my feat-intensive Shatter Defenses/Sap Master combo. I know there's also a type of goggles you can buy that lets you see through fog and mist, but those things are around 8,000 gp I hear?

I'm also wondering if I should be focusing more on survivability than damage output early-on (though that might be something to figure out personally during the course of play - if I'm having a lot of trouble staying alive, I may need more defenses).

On a final note, I'm also not sure if I should be devoting less focus to combat and more focus to roleplay feats (like Skill Focuses). That's something that probably also depends heavily on the rest of the party, but I'd like to know what you guys think.

Overall, you've all been a big help to me so far. Thanks again for all the advice you've given, and as always, any feedback you can give me now would be greatly appreciated.


I think you would get more specific advice if everyone knew what else your party consisted of.

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