I for one wanted a class that could once per rage heighten D6's to D8's, (or even to D10's!)Or increase save DC's because he was so angry. Change save types because he was so angry. Increase the number of dice rolled because he was so angry.
A guy who could make Detonate the go-to-spell. Hurting myself with AoE is a-okay cause it hurts you too.
Increase the amount of damage based on proximity.
A class ability that would let him deal a natural attack's damage at range. (Because he's so angry).
I wanted a caster that worked out of pure rage. And I wanted that to be reflected in the class abilities.
A true Khornite caster.
I wanted Evocation to be given a second life, and a prime-time spot with this Sith of a caster.
I like that!(I assume the INT bonus doesn't multiply on a crit) I'd like it even more if the extra damage was classified as an insight bonus.
I like the idea of being rewarded for movement on the battlefield (same goes for fighting multiple opponents). But I wouldn't want it to become a "must do" and have it end up denying you full attacks.
Just wanted to bring up some comments Google made which I largely agreed with wholeheartedly. Mostly that it's in this section I feel the class needs a large amount of work.
I agree, I'd basically never use it. The only situation I can see coming up is if I needed to use Escape Artist to get out of some kind of grapple wherein my CMB wouldn't cut it. Panache is currently too important for my damage for me to waste out of combat on skills. I like the idea of exploding dice however.
Dodging Panache: It's incredibly rare that you can find a use for it, but it is good when it comes up... at very low levels when you have nothing better to do with your panache. Upgrade the movement to 10' at level 7, or just in general even, and it's worth keeping.
Agree with the bold section. It allows her to occasionally avoid full attacks, (of course not if the monster has reach, or step-up type feats). Even if it didn't interrupt full attacks, by being more than a simple 5' step it still provides possible respite for next turn's potential full attack.And we've also just added to her mobility in combat.
I like this move a lot. Perhaps level 3 is a more appropriate time to get it. I agree that it should only be usable if something is indeed going to hit you. That makes sense to me fluff-wise and mechanically.This is the primary use of Panache, and Immediate Actions (the Riposte).
Adds mobility, and combat usefulness... a static benefit and at a cost a better one. Sounds good.
I've never personally cared about demoralizing my foes in combat. I'm definitely not spending a swift action on it (which could be instead free damage with a riposte, or enhanced Precise Strike). Like he mentioned, there's a series of feats for this. Why waste class design space?
I like Precise Strike's first paragraph. In a nutshell I agree.
I understand why it's here. I'm not against it from a flavor standpoint, but in practical applications it isn't terribly useful. What if this just became an increase to base move speed?
It's potential utility which I'm not entirely against. I'd only want to use this in very specific occasions however. Maybe if I could just sacrifice a single attack out of a full attack action to do this.
I'm not as against this as Google is. I hold staggering, confusing or knocking prone an enemy with no save in very high regard. And it's a shout out to the class' gunslinger routes.
I like it. It's worthy of the Panache point spending, and doesn't gum up our action economy.
Not sure what Google means about "skipping to improved evasion"
I'm still confused about this ability.
The practical applications of this are very limited. I'd vote to drop it.
I agree that it feels useless at this level. By level 15 the skills that matter to you probably get a bigger bonus than you could roll on the d20.
I'd love to see this around levels 7-12.
After reading and participating in several of the other threads, I'm really hoping the Devs/Designers can find a way to extend their timetable (as unlikely as it may be), to allow for another wave of public testing.
Encumbrance aside we still have Save issues, action economy problems, and mobility Issues. Am I forgetting any of the major ones?
I second the "remove the crit tax" on precise strike. It negates the panache point earned by criting, and hurts action economy. Granted, as-is it does allow you to apply x2 Precise Strike on non crits as well--which might be kind of neat at levels 5-10...but I'm not sure that's worth it given the potential problems.
Someone pointed out "Leadership" can be a dirty word at some tables. I agree.
I was hoping an Investigator side-kick talent-tree/archetype could give some unique uses for the companion (like storing inspiration, or acting as a spell book, or providing daily-re-rolls) that apply in clever ways for the investigator. Not just to improve upon Leadership. Most agree leadership is too powerful unless house ruled appropriately.
There are of course other ways to do it (as you mentioned above)--but if it's class specific we might see even more fun (and balanced) additions to game play.
That's fair enough point about the CHA. We wouldn't see this being used very often.
I've been mulling it over (and had been hoping to see more comments on it from our fellows) but I'm actually okay with it balance wise at 1,2,3.
Particularly because so many abilities require you to have at least 1 Panache. And this is a fighting class. You're supposed to be able to dish out damage.
Reasonable arguments could be made for this being potentially too strong, as I'm sure we'll see. But I sincerely like it.
1 Point for a move seems reasonable.
2 Points for a Standard...Seems strong. Basing it off of other classes Monks and Ninjas for example can spend 1 ki point for an extra attack. This is obviously much better than just an extra attack, as theirs doesn't stack with haste, and is restrictive. But then again our points pool is more limited. So a more finite resource in theory should indeed be given higher value.
3 points for what could be two full attacks in one round? That seems very powerful. Not that I'm against power. But I've just gotten better DPR spread than a TWF of my level. Very strong.
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Oh. That makes sense I guess... Downside being that this won't be used often (if ever), given the action economy choke-points happening with the Swashbuckler as-is.
I loved the idea of Detonate (had Dragon Ball-Z/Vegeta flashbacks). It would be super cool to have that as a build/area of focus for the Bloodrager.
You're absolutely right of course. Really it seems like the community agrees on the need for adjustments to the saves here.
For my part, I'm just waiting for Developer commentary. I'd like to know where their thoughts are on the subject of the Swashbuckler at this point.
So it sounds like either Swashbuckler needs to be able to use Charmed Life as an "immediate free action" and get plenty of uses of it.
Or better yet, she needs to get Fort as a good progression, and swap CHA for WIS for Will saves.
(I'd be happy with swapping Fort for Ref in terms of good/bad save progressions, and upgrading Charmed Life to usefulness...but that doesn't necessarily match flavor.)
Otherwise we're looking at a rather frail front line fighter.
Perhaps we'll see some help via archetypes.
Personally I'd be okay with that weak point, presuming I had proper offensive/utility compensation.
If I was able to use Charmed Life as an "immediate free action" and could use it up to my CHA mod per day that is (or maybe my CHA Mod + X). Mostly because in later levels as your CHA gets higher it'll scale well and see you through those hard do-or-die saves.
Of course that still makes early levels really rough... Which was the primary weakness many pointed out.
Yeah, tricky thing with design and balancing is even if you think A is done, any modifications you make to B might cause A to require adjustments.
I love the idea of Slayer's Momentum. A cool unique Talent.
Possibly a lot of design space for things reminiscent of Deadly Juggernaut (applied to Favored Targets of course).
A toast to optimism then!I'd love to hear Stephen or another Dev's final thoughts as they move into the next stages of Development for each of these classes. Perhaps when testing ends.
I'm not opposed.
I really feel like this class is almost at the perfect spot. Just gotta fix that battlefield flow.
Are we going to get to preview another revision of it before it goes to print?
RAW it says:
Dodging Panache (Ex): At 1st level, when an opponent attempts a melee attack...
Opportune Parry and Riposte (Ex): At 1st level, when an opponent makes a melee attack...
"makes" and "attempts" aren't necessarily keywords (to my knowledge), but it seems like you're supposed to use a Dodging Panache first, (as they are attempting to hit you) and then the Parry if the Dodge fails...which also makes sense from a flavor standpoint.
However the choice to parry is made before the enemy attack roll happens...So I'm not sure.
This is shaping up to be my absolute favorite class concept.
Take some of these notions, work in an investigative sidekick option, and Paizo, you've done it again.
A talent about getting a sidekick would be nifty. Maybe as a Cohort that has a certain number of base skills per level. Maybe just an Expert that you can 'store' Inspiration in and make use of it later, like a ring of grit.
One thousand times yes.
Every Sherlock needs his Watson.
Put a talent tree in for this and I'm sold.
(Maybe an archetype that replaces mutagens?)
Malachi's suggestions sound great to me. Although, I honestly wish I could keep riposting (multiple times in a round) up to my number of available AoO's via burning extra panache... but perhaps that'd be too strong.
Precise Strike: Would it be too powerful to have both options? Spend a Panache as a swift action to deal double your level as precision damage...or spend 1 panache and have it deal your level in damage that can multiply on crit? (seems a bit strong to give that much flexibility tbh. Having cake and eating it too). Or Perhaps leave it as is, and later on in the class they can start multiplying the extra damage on crit? (as a new level 16 or 19 ability?)
I am also confused about Dizzying Defense.
As a matter of fact the MORE ways I can convert my sneak attack dice into static bonuses, like Bonus damage, to-hit, or AC, or Saves, or anything vs my Favored Target the better!... That allows for Slayers to have a good amount of variety in terms of builds and flexibility.
Slayer Talents are really going to make or break this class for me.
Upgrading Sneak Attack against a single target, or dishing out de-buffs against your target's AC or Saves (like Slowing Strike), and giving more talents that have DCs to take advantage of that aspect of Favored Target.
As long as there is a nice, large spread of unique options for Talents (that fit with the Slayer/Murderer motif...serial killer talents anyone?) this class will work out great.
Alright, setting DEX aside (as Stephen's acknowledged it)...Did we get a solid foothold on the Swash's action economy?
Immediate actions + Swift actions?
This guy is supposed to be a rapid, mobile fighter, doing it all (with style!)
Ideally in the final build I'll be able to deflect an attack or two on it's opponents turn, and then add twice my level in damage on my turn (or during these parrys).
Just wanna make sure all of that is do-able. (I believe it is currently?)
Also, final thought: I realized I pretty much don't care about any of the other class abilities... Targeted Strike I'm okay with, Bleeding Wound isn't bad and Evasive is clever...all the rest that involve panache however (Swashbuckler's Initiative, Grace, Superior Feint, Perfect Thrust, Edge) I find pretty useless.
I'm hoping we'll see an expanded list in the final version.
Slayer VS Guide (Ranger Archetype)
Seems like the slayer sacrifices damage for the potential of utility. Correct? Because Guide gets twice as much attack and damage bonus of "favored target".
I'm having a hard time of seeing the Slayer as more effective at "killing one specific target" than a Guide, or a Ninja.
I didn't math-hammer anything, just took a look at numbers as presented. Anyone have insight/experience in playing murderer type characters?
Sir Jacobs, I was just reading over some Carrion Crown and was wondering....
In developing adventure paths which of these have proven to be larger restraints in regards to the amount of content you all can put in:
Costs of printing/editing? (Including keeping the prices affordable for buyers)
Also on a way, way more serious note:
What are the odds of us ever seeing: a Druid wildshaped into a Tyrannosaur, riding an enlarged Tyranosaur Animal Companion, summoning additional Tyrannosaur cavalry as a boss fight at the end of an AP?
Because I feel a glorious charge of Tyrannosaur (Tyrannosaurus?) is a decent avenue to explore. You know. Creatively.
Congrats to her, and to you on the landmark!
She should be immensely proud.
I would rather pit a level 2 Character against a Glabrezu than fight even a single one of those. :P
Male Human Ninja 10/Red Mantis Assassin 10
Excellent. Given that I won't be joining until later I'll see how the party forms up and finalize the decision afterward with whatever can work best.
Excited to see how this game unfolds. =)
Male Human Ninja 10/Red Mantis Assassin 10
There are two concepts I'd like to pursue and would love to hear opinions on.
Odd Man Out 1 - Kalam/Sorry Archetype:
This type would be a character that joined the service not necessarily out of duty or loyalty, but for another reason (possibly to capitalize on their own talent. Possibly because they were running away from something)
This character is suited to taking orders, and not squeamish in the least. Always willing to do whatever unpleasant deed needs doing, this type would likely have become a criminal if they hadn't enlisted.
Despite dancing sociopath undertones, this character is not treacherous in the least. They are dedicated to their direct superior, trusting their orders almost to a fault. The reasons for this dedication however are rarely traditional.
This would be a Ninja(Assassin)/Ranger (Scout) (Would have to take ranger for TWF given my stats. Otherwise I would have enjoyed going Inquisitor or Samurai with it.)
Odd Man Out 2 - Internal Affairs:
This character has a healthy dose of military tradition, and a respect for queen and country-- while still having a keen eye for career advancement.
Through their actions they have built up somewhat of a reputation as an "Internal Affairs" type, or Military Police. This reputation was built through the characters' natural talent for weeding out spies, and interrogating enemies. Though--he himself does not much relish the duty.
As a result he is often at odds with the regular soldiers. They think he believes himself 'above them' given his talents and status within the regiment. He on the other hand assumes they wouldn't understand if he tried to explain the truth--that he envied them. That he wanted nothing more than to fight by their side, instead of being forced to pick out their flaws.
For this I would probably go Magus/Inquisitor with the knowledge domain.
Hurray! I'll get a character prepared.
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (1, 6) + 6 = 13
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (4, 1) + 6 = 11
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (2, 1) + 6 = 9
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (6, 2) + 6 = 14
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (2, 6) + 6 = 14
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (5, 4) + 6 = 15
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (1, 2) + 6 = 9
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (2, 3) + 6 = 11
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (6, 2) + 6 = 14
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (4, 2) + 6 = 12
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (3, 1) + 6 = 10
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (1, 4) + 6 = 11
Edit: Hah, gotta love those rolls.
(Right now looking at either Assassin(Ninja) or Magus to really define the character)
Two brief questions before I jump into character creation:
The Weapon Bond trait, is it functioning like Heirloom Weapon (So one particular weapon) or is it functioning like Weapon Focus (All Longswords?)
I ask for the purposes of TWF.
And if one had TWF with light weapons would Ambidextrous drop the penalty from -2/-2 to 0? Or can it not override the -2/-2 base?
Thank you kindly.
I would love to be in on this. The Malazan books and Black Company were both great, and I have been reading along your midnight game for some time. (Inspired me to try the setting with the folk's at home. They loved it.)
Sadly, I'll be traveling for a week on the 15th.
Would you accept candidates for 'would-be's were anyone to drop out?
Definitely like the thought of a Magus being able to emulate the fighting styles of the different melee classes.
A more Roguish Magus for example. It doesn't need Trapfinding necessarily but a blend of class abilities and new arcane pool tricks/spells to allow the archetype to feel more like a Rogue would be very cool.
Same goes for Barbarian...Paladin...
Perhaps kinds that build off of different abilities?
Fast Magus (for some additional synergies with Dex)
Not sure entirely what this would be, just throwing it out there.
Or a similar thing but with alignment based themes, such as:
Their spell list could change a bit as well as their Arcane Pool allowing some additional boosts (such as anarchic or unholy wep enhancements).
...Lastly would a Magus with an Animal Companion be too much? Because if that could work out, I would love to see it.
Evil Lincoln wrote:
Aye I believe you do good sir.
Alien had me at the edge of my seat... until they showed me the guy in the body suit. Keeping the xenomorph mysterious and abstract was a good choice...I also understand the choice made to reveal it at the end.
But I saw it and was knocked out of the moment a bit. "Ah...man in suit..."
It could be that it was better than the CG for many people. I'm just a fan of the mysterious cloak and dagger threat over the more obvious monster.
To bring this back to relevance:
HIGH LORD JACOBS, preference? Monster shrouded in mystery ala Jaws? Or stampeding behemoths such as Jurassic Park?
Haha I really hope the effects of working in an obviously haunted office building over night will manifest in the AP.
I cannot express to you the joy that would come from reading it and being able to read between the lines and say "Ah...yes this is where Wes was assaulted by the spirits...oh and here is where he drank some!"
When was the last time you Ran/Participated in an "evil" campaign?
And do you think in theory, that writing an adventure for an assumed evil party would be fundamentally different than writing an adventure for a good one?
I'd consider some levels as an evil cleric, or grabbing leadership and an evil cleric cohort.
If you have the Death Domain eventually you too will be healed by negative energy. So you can burst, heal your shadow and yourself and hurt your enemies (who hopefully will be taking strength damage as well).
Just a thought, great way to keep you and your little friend alive. =)
Definitely something I'd be interested in. I'm into the Magus play-test right now, but am willing to play any class.
What method were you looking to play by? You mention messengers such as Yahoo and Skype as opposed to playing on the forums.
My concern is that since it's a PBP we may have trouble co-coordinating dedicated time for us to all be on and game.
I feel you could argue for it either way.
It is a light weapon (only weighing 2 lbs) but mechanically is treated as a longsword when you don't have proficiencies.
Maybe others can provide more insight or a firm ruling, but I'd say it's up to your GM to decide.
Generally speaking I don't think any amount of proficiency with a weapon should confer indirect penalties. (Such as causing its official listing to become "Blades, Light" when you have invested Weapon training with Blades, Heavy.)
Out of curiosity, does that (a ranger using a weapon in one hand and claws for his natural with the Multi-attack feat) essentially replicate TWF?
Back in "the day" Barbers were also often surgeons.
Sounds like it could fit. Also...War Razors are cool--so there's a plus.
Umbral Reaver wrote:
That's interesting, I actually really like this.
It would be pretty cool to see some official undead included in future products that had this quality.
As far as some of them having smaller amounts of fortification I think that would be fine as long as you tried to balance them a bit. (possibly lowered HP a tad?)
Really I think the best call is to apply it in your game as you see fit. If you don't think the wood golem should be Sneak-Attackable, then modify it appropriately. The Rogue'll pout (I know I've done my share) but it's not the most unreasonable thing in the world.