Thalin's page

Well, relative to monsters you fight it's low.

As everyone else said, 15 points actually make the min-maxers better; role players will not dump stats and basically end up with a 16-14 setup; a wizard can pretty easily dump str, chr, and to a lesser extent Wisdom and basically not feel anything.

That's why I tend to go higher points (my default is 24 points nothing under 10... a 20 point buy giving everyone "credit" for taking a 7, so those who refuse to dump stats don't end up vastly underpowered).

Good analysis; maybe the strict answer is have more "paths" built into classes (you choose X class path and just "get feats" from that path). With most of the other options just giving you a variant way to use your action, the pre-defined path just gives you the feats along the line; then the "feats" will be more generic options that can go along with any of the classes lines.

Like as a Paladin, if you choose the Shield, you get the shield options as listed for free. You don't have access to the sword options; unless you take Second Ally (which might unlock those options as feats).

Might go along way in making characters feel more customizable.

I'm glad everyone is keeping open and constructive. This is the conversation I wanted, what I think Paizo needs to hear.

The concept of "what can I do to open it up" is a difficult one, and the short answer is "I don't know". In PF2, each class feature is, in and of itself, an action or reaction. There isn't a way to get a static bonus, or add keywords to actions; and 95% of the items are regulated to your specific class. In fact, even in multiclassing you can not EVER get to the defining characteristics of a class (Paladin retributive strike, rogue sneak attack, etc).

So to open things up, you have to have more "static bonuses" allowed into the game. And make it so that you can stack up a reaction setup (I react retributive strike with a finishing trip attempt added on). That's a fundemental change on what they are going for, but may be necessary to fix up the two inherent problems previously mentioned... lack of customizationand lack of ability to be great at anything. Otherwise by not adding a chance of something accidentally being broken (hey, there's always errata); you've eliminated any chance for Roleplayers to "think outside the box".

After 4 rounds, our group is adding to the list leaving the playtest.

It's not that I think that classes or powers are underpowered. There are some balance issues that have been beat to death (non-scaling druid forms, bardic performances, etc). It's not the lack of the difference between "trained" and legendary... these are problems to be sure, but I am confident the team will eventually fix these issues.

No, the issue is I think the game is, fundamentally, not fun. And I don't know that you can fix this with just playing and rebalancing.

It took playing the (I enjoyed it) Pathfinder: Kingmaker video game to really help me understand the real difference here. I must have played the first act 10 times, just because I wanted to test various combos and builds and rebuilds and feat setups. This was what Pathfinder was all about, what DND 3.5 had that 4.0 and 5.0 lacked, the ability that you were truly building towards something unique with tons of options. Someone that could do their "special trick" without worrying too much about the die roll mitigation.

With Pathfinder 2.0, it felt like no matter what you did, your success was more or less 50/50 on pretty much every action you did (poor scaling made the monsters hitting on 6-7 while parties hit on 13-14, but again I have some confidence you'd balance that out). Your tanks were 2-3 points higher AC than your non-tanks; which sounds like a "big deal", but in our play simply meant things were more regulated to the dice.

And actions? You were so focused on making sure that things can't stack or build in ways that you did not anticipate that, well, everyone is cookie cutter. Yes a few classes have certain specific "long term goal setups" that you can pick and choose (Paladin change was good, for the record; I played a paladin in our final round). But by and large, every character feels the same, like I can't really put much thought into my character creation and say "look how cool!"

In the end, the best you can do with this fundamental system is add a few more interesting options and fix the bad abilities to be slightly better or scale better. But this isn't going to change having a system based too much on everyone being average at everything.

My hope that I don't think will be realized from 2.0 is that you take the parts that work well (love the "3 action setup", I think there SHOULD be a limit to the number of ongoing buffs that characters can have going on, and like at least the idea of the racial feats for free... even if I think there are obvious choices for nearly every race). Take those pieces, put them into PF 1.0 system, and you have something better (already you've given martials "move and attack", which I think was the only thing they were honestly lacking). I hope you do not let Pathfinder die into a 4.0 "blah" system... remember that PF dominated the market because players hated DND 4th.

Please. I believe in you Paizo. With love and hope,

-Dave

You mentioned "2d8". I actually think you meant "2d12". Which brings up the point... magic weapons being tied to the die of the damage make having a d12 weapon insanely important. Anyone not able to find that d12 will suffer heavily. You can somewhat accept d10s for reach, but that's as low as I will go. Rogues with their fairly-easy-to-pull-off sneak attack I guess can accept d8s, since that is the only way to get an agile weapon.

I still think my top issue is Trained Vs Legendary only amounting to +3; the minor differences in what you are "specialized" in makes you feel, well, not very special.

I actually think the spells are quite good; though the number that are quite good relative to their level are limited. Magic-types seem to have plenty to work with.

I think they've handled the bland race issues; or at least "vastly improved them". At the very least, I now think races are better than PF1.

I'm giving a lot of feedback. I'm actually feeling the same way as the OP. We haven't given up on the playtest... but I just posted the first message along those lines. Second edition does not feel fun; in almost the exact same way that 4th edition did not feel fun. They were answering a lot of complaints about first edition... the redic class combinations, poor multi-classing, and the disperarity between min-maxed characters and "newer player" characters being so huge that it almost felt like you were playing the same game. I appreciate the way they tried to do things, and I actually like the CONCEPT of where they went with it.... make a simplistic system where "a bonus type is a bonus type", make everything an action, make feats.

The problem? At the end of the day... it's not fun. At all. Somehow I lost the diversity of actions that was made to be part of my character. Far from being an "expert" of a skill, the lack of specialization made it feel like I don't even care which skill I take above "trained". The characters feel cookie-cutter, and (I play on d20pfsrd) I have very few macros because I just don't use a ton of different actions. Combats are slow slug-fests of repeated attacks with everyone having no hp and not being able to chew through those hp very fast.

And while the SurveyMonkey surveys try to do something, they don't really let us express ANY of this. And never will. I've filled out the surveys. They've done a few good changes to address the most major problems. But it's not changing the fact that this new game doesn't feel as fun as Pathfinder 1st; or even some of the "even more broken" other game systems I've played.

I've personally been on the other side of the fence a lot; telling people complaining about the terribleness of magic that in 1st edition it was "flat over the top" like the damage ratios. But for that, things in 1st felt fun. And exciting. And I really want that here, I'm just worried there may be a fundemental flaw in this system that isn't being addressed, and won't be unless more people post like the OP.

Love paizo, believe they will find some way to fix this.

Morning Paizo. I don't really think your survey is enough to give "True" feedback, so I wanted to come back to the forums and do a post-up.

My character for the playtest, part 2, was a Dwarven Monk. I wanted to experiment with multi-classing, and wanted to see dwaves "in action".
Here were my thoughts on everything (for those reading, minor spoilers below). I ended up using Rogue, even as I saw that it would probably
be better to be a fighter. I also wanted to see how combat manuevers worked, so I "Experted" Athletics and took lots of skils aroudn it.

*The rogue add-on feels MUCH weaker than the fighter add-on. Rogue gets "suprise attack", which doesn't really come into play terribly often
(especially considering how relatively easy it is to flank etc). Fighters get full access to all weapons and armor; and fighter feats are simply
better at low levels. I'd like to see something more iconic... maybe make the sneak attack "d4 style" be what you get as a rogue multi-classing
(since sneak-attack is probably why you took it anyway).

*For wanting to be a manuever specialist, I sure couldn't find any athletics-based skills that let you do a manuever better than anyone else.
I used the opportunity to become a jumping specialist... which turned out good. Assurance was a lot better than I thought for athletics... the ability
to just know I could make 15 foot jumps (expert athletic + extra 5 foot feat + quick jump) was good for determining landing spots.

*Combat in general felt pretty sloggish. Part of the problem were the monsters... when they generally have ACs in the low 20s and our highest was 20;
and they get +13 to hit compared to our +8, it felt like the scenario where they rarely missed and we rarely hit.

Only the containment fields on the elementals kept us alive... those things were rough. Our GM said this has been a general belief, and that crit immunity at low levels will be discussed; much less the air/earth elementals ability to take exactly 1 hit without everyone go into "ready" mode.

*You sure reintroduced the "Cure Light Wound" effects quickly. Yes we had long combat days... but at no point did we actually enter a combat with less than full health. Medicine is required; and like a lot of skill-check based thing, sitting there rolling dice until that person rolled a 1 (and the party
became "bolstered" for them), then moving to the next peson seemed like a waste of time. I know you want longer adventuring days... but I thought part of the CLW effect was it removing the danger of traps and the need to ever go in combat with less than full hp.

*Manuevers were actually pretty good

The gnoll fight (we had a player who had made their background a slave by gnolls, so yes, it was a fight) was great for testing the "push" manuever; and indirectly the "grab edge" reaction. Grappling seemed effective. Disarm seemed terrible so I did not even try. For the crab, grapple leading to it ending up tripped on a nat-1 showed lots of potential danger

*However, it emphasized that there felt like almost no difference between an "expert" and a "trained" character. Lacking any exciting feats, the +1 was a 5% bonus... leading to the die having a lot more outcome than how I spent my skills. I think your introduction of the -4 to "untrained" skills
really did what it was supposed to... we stopped doing the "everyone roll every knowledge check" scenarios. I think this could be extended.... double the bonuses to each level on everything. It should fix itself... a legendary armor vs legendary weapon user is still relatively the same. And I do think the
difference between a Legendary person at a skill and a untrained one should be the difference in a critical (a success for the untrained guy being critical for the Legend).

*With the higher hit points and "static" options, games don't feel as diverse as 1st edition. I've been a big advocate and really trying to push the idea of change. But I feel like I am playing the same problems of 4th edition... they tried to overbalance everything, and doing so took away options and
made everyone seem kinda "blah". I don't like that feeling... I can't put my finger on it, but I think something needs to make the combats more exciting and have more options.

*Animal companions were god-awful. We had a ranger and a druid (animal companion specialist). The druid's animal companion occasionally got a hit for a little damage, but the rangerrarely felt it was worth 1 of his actions for 2 low-damage attacks from the animal companion. Also, they suffer from lack of feeling special as well.

*Monks still feel bad relative to the "weapon" classes. With the magic weapon spell being 1st level, and all the emphasis on making a weapon magical adding dice, a d12 feels like a requirement for weapons. Anything not rolling d12 had better have some amazing keywords to make it worth swinging. Also, the expert in unarmored did not make up for what armor can do for you. Not that it mattered (see the monster's high to-hit).

Again I can't emphasize the combat is starting to feel very 4th edition-like. It seemed you went SO safe in the design of the new edition that you took no risks and effectively made everyone feel the exact same. You have lots of potential actions that could be useful in a variety of circumstances... fill up our arsenal of options. As a monk, I should have had a million extra actions for Athletics to be cool... I had none (I think there was one that lets
you do str in damage if you start a grapple... that is terrible). Barbarians should have options to make their various rages more cool. And experts relative to trained should feel more diverse.

And just so we can say it, I'm not coming down hard... I like the way the levels are set up and the fact you are trying to give options. They just don't feel risky enough. You took the game's power level down 95%... I think you need to consider dialing it back up in the final edition.

Always a fan! I know this is playtest and far from the final version.

You just want to be an arcanist. They really are the wizard/sorc mix that accomplishes your goal. Aside from that, spell pages or Mneumonic Vestment (keep a whole wardrobe of them) are the easiest way.

I mean, depends on how you play it. If you use others to deceive and stay quiet and benefit, it is a lie by most standards. Remember it is your oath... if you are trying to work around it, it's probably not a very good roleplaying experience.

But as saying, it does not require you to be stupid. If someone starts asking you for answers you can remain silent in those situations; for instance, if you are asked where another PC is and you know the answer but know it would be a bad idea to speak to the enemy.

It does ruin many infiltration module potentials though; so check with GM first.

Hybrid is honestly the "best"; Ranger to 6 gets you Improved Precise as early as possible, as well as two favored enemy (for long play I recommend Humans and Evil Outsiders, but humans can easily be undead). You can also pick up a wand of instant enemy to "switch this bonus out)

Then switch to fighter (probably Lore Warden for no better reason than 4 skill points / level and the ability to eventually trip with bows regardless of Int, and all they give up is new armor); more feats along the way (including Weapon Specialization), and at 5 you get Weapon Training. This enables gloves of dueling, effectively giving you +3 to hit and damage with bows.

*plink plink*

I'm all for it personally. Yes, the game mostly works, but the splat books are getting cherry-picked, and it is the nature of games to 'break' once people have too many options available. It's a bit of a shame, but we all know that, while they fixed a LOT, 3.5 had a lot of inherent problems, especially in the high levels.

Newer games like 13th Age have a cooler leveling system ("try before you buy" approach to leveling, getting to choose higher level abilities). 5th edition limited the number of buffs available to characters (preventing the math nightmare). And both are new enough to have not gotten over-bogged in splat books.

*plink* *plink*

If you want a "power holy build", straight evangalist is an amazing non-combatant (more spells, still has inspiration). You can throw the below in on evangalist as well.

Lacking that, Bards do fine in general with non-combat. Take Signature Skill - Intimidate and the Weapon Focus / Dazzling Display line... soon you'll have opponents at least shaken with a DC 10+your level save area effect to avoid being frightened (or take 1 level of thug and skip the save if you beat the DC by 10 or more; however the character you are building does not sound "Thuglike").

I'd go:

Str: 7 (no reason for an 8, if you are willing to dump anyway)
Int: 14 (you're a skill master; take full advantage)
Wis: 10
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Chr: 20 (All level-ups except 20, which can go to Int)

Take the +2 to use intimidate trait (if traits are allowed) and the Human alt that gives skill focus at 1st, 8th, and 14th level (start with Skill Focus: a perform skill that gives intimidate... drums are good, and let you get a masterwork drum set to push this up).

At level 6, your intimidate can be (6 levels + 3 class + 3 focus +2 Masterwork drum +2 Trait) = 16; so you basically need to roll their wisdom bonus in order to make an equal-level opponent do a DC: 16 save or run for a round (and take all the AOOs). It scales really well with level.

At level 8, you get free Skill focus (Sing), and can consider throwing in Antagonize @ 7 and you can cause more chaos in the opposing ranks.

Also, be aware that "Snake Style" only works on one attack per round, so may not be as good as you think. It takes your immediate action.

I 4th an evangalist cleric. As a GM it's a nice buff, a great healer, and lets the other PCs shine.

50/25/25 would probably be the right thing; though if a GM wanted it as a storyarc where the blood mixed in a weird way it would be whatever makes the best story :).

So if you want to hypnotize zombies take the undead alt-class. The cure statuses should be "someone else's job" anyway, and it is a much more effective psychic inception for undead (who are one of the most difficult classes to deal with).

As far as tricks, I've found thusfar that the will save trick is by far my first one after 3rd level; shadow splinter was only good for a while, since its damage does not scale with level and it requires a legal new target for the attack. With the "Cha to will saves", you end up with great will saves to hand out to your otherwise-vulnerable tank-types.

Pin down requires 11 fighter levels.

A manuever master / rogue does most of this better. This allows you to have "Quick Dirty Trick" effective @ level 2 (we'll assume rogue level 1). And you won't need to take the combat expertise until 9.

Traits should be Helpful and Bred for War (+1 CMB)
Monk 1: Improved Dirty Trick, Combat Reflexes, Agile Manuevers
Rogue 1: Weapon Finessee
Rogue 2: Two-weapon fighting, Combat Training (Bodyguard)
Rogue 3: Improved Weapon Finesse (now you deal actual damage)

This gives you an extra attack (meaning 3 at level 2, or legally being allowed to "Dirty Trick" twice in 1 turn).

You are also encouraged to up Wis (if you are willing to dump, the character is "strictly better" with a 7 Str AND a 7 Chr, but that's a big IF... I know some people consider it taboo). If you'll do this, that gets you a 19 Dex and 14 in all other stats. Your saves will also be much better thanks to the Monk's +2 to all.

Lore Warden is probably the "best unique archtype". It's difficult to get CMB bonuses, and they get it like a charm.... and make high-level maneuvering viable (especially if combined with 1-2 levels of Manuever Master, but I digress).

I think that is also the best use of tons of feats that I have seen... since you can reliably avoid simply "concentrating on tripping" and be a tripping-grappling-dirty tricking machine.

First Steps can be run by a newbie in 3 hours, and teaches all of the basics of the game. It's actually designed for just that.

Atheism, when there are provable ways to show the gods exist (as is the case in the Pathfinder world) seems a bit silly. You could potentially play a character that refuses to bow down to the gods, but not in PFS (that would be a "cleric of an idea").

Or I guess the character could make an argument that these "Gods" are merely powerful creatures, and not something to be worshiped. And to a lesser extent they're right... Gods have stats and can even die in the Pathfinder world, so they're just powerful creatures "at their heart". There is no "All seeing, all knowing being" like the one professed in Earth's world.

It's the perfect hook-in. A "ghoul" is a murderer who dies and is forced back to unlife; so there it is (he did kill his wife and such). Go with the "Wrathful" line pointed at the Gunslinger, the story continues uninterrupted.

So normally your penalties for fighting with a light off-hand and a regular weapon is -4 (Primary) -8 (Secondary). Two weapon fighting improves the primary by +2 and Secondary by +6. You count as having two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes; but not longswords. Therefore, RAW you would get the bonus with the hand and not the longsword; making your total penalties -4 to hit with longsword and -2 with your fist.

I've been in this situation. It's not that this is broken per se to deal 90+ damage in a round at that level, it's that the other players are simply on another power level.

There's no "great" solution in game, save to just accept it, keep the encounters at the level of the rest of the party, and focus the game more on the role playing and world instead of the game. But I would just talk to the player. Tell them that their dynamic is making it difficult to work with the other players since their power level is so drastically higher than the rest of the party. Say that you don't mind power in characters, but when the rest of the players are so far back it's taking the fun out. Encourage them to change out for a powerful strictly support character; they can min-max buffs to make the rest into fighting machines.

If they are stubborn you may have no choice to dismiss them. It's sad, but games are fun with all power players or no power players. They can even be fun as a mix if the power players are front-line and non are support (or vice-versa). But this does not sound like the case here :(.

Good luck to you, it's never pleasant having this conversation, but most people are more open and understanding than you might think.

First, it's not suicide; far from it, it can be quite good. Your choice of classes is not "ideal", but we can work with it.

Ki Thrower is not going to be good unless you go Monk. For the TRULY best version of this class, you would want a Manuever Master Monk (at least 5 levels); after 5 you could have brawler to improve your flexibility (and also get multiple attacks). But we'll discuss this if you are more interested (think in this case Brawler 1, MM 1, Brawler 2, MM 2-5, Brawler the rest of the way for how you would do this).

So we'll go with Human, and focus primarily on Trip and Grapple (the two most powerful manuevers).

Stats (and I didn't see anything saying you were "not OK" with the min-max):

Str: 19
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Chr: 7
Traits: Bred For War, Heirloom Weapon (+1 to trip Horsechopper)

Skills are Intimidate, Perception, and then some "1 points" in things like Swim, Climb, etc.

Feats:

1) Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
2) Combat Reflexes
3)Improved Grapple
3) Manuever Training (Trip), Combat Reflexes
5) Grabbing Style, Fury's Fall

So the idea here is to keep the Horsechopper up to intercept "rushing" opponents with Trip attacks and knock them down. Afterwords you can follow up by closing in and punching them with your fists or, if they are solo/magic types, grappling them (now at +4 thanks to them being on the ground).

By 5th level your "bought list" should be:

+1 Mithril Chain Shirt of Brawling (+2 to grapple manuevers, +2 to unarmed damage)
Masterwork Horsechopper ('cause)
Red Ioun Stone (in Wayfinder)

With next purchases "online" being a +2 strength amulet and an Amulet of Mighty Fist +1.

So at 5th level your trip will be:

(5 BAB, 5 Strength, 1 Masterwork Horsechopper, 3 Fury's Fall, 2 Red Ioun Stone, 2 Trip Manuever, 1 Bred For War, 1 Manuever Training) = +20. +21 since you get your armor if you use fists (the Horsechopper is really just there for AOOs). Enough to take down, well, everything at this level (even things on 4 legs).

Your Grapple will be:

(5 BAB, 5 Strength, 2 Shirt of Brawling, 2 Red Ioun Stone, 2 Grapple Manuever, 1 Bred For War) = +17

Your attack will be:

(5 BAB, 5 Strength, 2 Brawling Armor, -2 Flurry) = +10 for d8 +7 damage each (2 attacks). Not great, but for being a "secondary mode" it's by no means bad.

Feats worth "Manuever Mastering":

Enforcer - Your fists can deal non-lethal, and even with your -2 on charisma your intimidate will be 2 + level; giving you about a 50-60% chance per hit to give someone a -2 to all d20 rolls.

Blind-Fighting - Don't forget this gem vs invisible opponents; or when the lights go out. 5th level required.

Vicious Stomp - A free extra attack when you are tripping someone that is "in your face". You could possibly trade out grabbing style for this, but again it won't always apply (the horsechopper trip can't combine with this).

Ki Throw - While I don't recommend getting it as a non-monk (because there's no way to apply it to large opponents), it's great to "Flex" into. @ 6 you can get it and binding throw at the same time to get that "Trip Grapple" lock against pretty much any medium-sized opponent.

Improved Disarm - If lots of human opponents rush you, put this up and send all their weapons flying with your AOOs on the horsechopper.

Improved Dirty Trick / Swift Dirty Trick - Nice to be able to blind AND trip someone as a flurry. This is 6th level add-on.

Easily the most powerful character I've seen in all of Pathfinder had NO HINT of magic.

It was a Dwarven Wild Rager 2 / Martial Artist x.

The Wild Rager was to gain an extra attack. Martial artist gave bonuses to attacks and AC, and could get past ANY flavor of DR reduction (or hardness). I was shocked to find out this actually lets him PUNCH THROUGH WALLS OF FORCE LIKE THEY WERE NOTHING.

Torwards the end of the campaign (ROTRL, run straight from the book) he was (granted, with bard help and some buffs) attacking in the +50 range on his primary attacks, generally delving out about 400 damage (the campaign ended @ level 17).

He was considered the party powerhouse; above all of the other members (each of which had magic... the rest of the party was a Rage-Inquisitor, a Sky Cleric, a Bard, and a Wizard). His saves were pretty much "only a 1 will fail" too; Monk + high Wis/Dex/Con + Dwarf. Even his armor class was 40ish (and I don't think he had any special buffs for that).

Generically, an Arcane Bloodrager is a good idea if you are looking for something "straight out of the box". Better survivability than a normal Barbarian (thanks to "always on" buffs after a few levels; including automatic displacement at level 8). For 20 point I would break him down:

Human Steelblood BloodRager 1
Str: 18
Int: 7 (You still get 3 skill points/level to keep you interactive outside of combat)
Wis: 12
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Chr: 12 (It's OK, you should have a +2 Headband by level 7)

Rager of the Society (Up those rage round), Bred For War

1) Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3) Combat Reflexes
5) Arcane Strike
7) Greater Trip, Disruptive
9) Power Attack

Swing a Horsechopper (Level 1 while raging: d10+9 damage @ +7 to hit; or +9 CMB for tripping). Trip spellcasters, who will have to deal with a +2 concentration check (and by level 7, +6 concentration check). Get some Full plate for good armor class so you can tank hard.

Pretty straightforward, buff up, swing hard, trip a lot.

Straight fighter you get the Corrigun Smash (or Enforcer) feat and a Cruel weapon. Every power attack you do on a foe effectively lowers all of their d20 rolls by -4 (first hit applies "shaken", second hit adds "sicken"). Get a high-crit weapon with Enforcer, since any crit actually makes them lose their next attack with no save. The 5 hp per foe dropped can be quite handy too.

Blade of Mercy + Enforcer is the best setup; if you are willing to follow Sarenrae AND your GM allows it. It allows Scimitars to do non-lethal (and 1 extra point of damage to boot).

If you don't mind the splash, thug changes "Shaken" to "Frightened" much of the time; effectively making each attack force opponents to run away. At this point you can actually start considering Dazzling Display to act as crowd control; eventually leading up to Violent Display (if you can befriend a were-tiger somehow) or Dreadful Carnage (at very high levels) to do this during full attacks.

It's easy to keep your CMB up where you can trip huge; as far as "ways to do it", size adjusting is best. The halfling monk is also created to be able to trip foes extensively larger than them (and not even suffer penalties).

Ki Throw lets you do it (albeit draining your ki pool a lot for each use; ring of ki mastery can help there).

Not too much else; you'll face few enough enemies over HUGE size anyway, and geting consistantly into the 60s to trip the tarrasque is really, really, really hard.

Instadeath curses without the ability to remove sound pretty harsh. It sounds fine to give them a way to remove it, assuming you did not want it as part of a storyarc.

Everyone has it right; it's a matter of fun. If everyone has fun, who cares how weak or strong you are as a GM?

Meh, much as I love the manuever master, I'm going with "no"; manuever master excels when you are doing dirty trick, grapple, or other feats that require a full-round action; and trip has the effect of being amazing until 6, OK until 9, and bad at high levels.... the Bloodrager already suffers from being "stacked" more for low levels than high levels, so losing a level in your progress towards greater bloodrager hurts

Right; NPCs usually hear the PCs coming. If the party optimizes and pulls off "stealth kills" and infilitration, probably not. But I have yet to see a party do that (I tried to encourage us to do that for this party, but was not successful; the teamwork feat that lets everyone use the best die for stealth was paramount to this setup).

Plus, let's be honest; casters especially are so far outclassed by action economy that it is still not a fair fight. That goat? Probably going to die to a failed will save.

Having said that, unless the boss intends to come after the PCs, having round buffs usually does not happen pre-combat; at best they should probably have minute buffs up.

Slings are better than throwing weapons because of free-action reload; Quick Draw pending.

It's not that "Slings are amazing"; it's that for a non-range person who does not want to spend 1000 GP on an adaptable bow it is a bow less 2 points average damage.

Thug builds, for the record, are not the same as fear effects. Even if it was ruled a morale effect (it's not right now, go scare all of the undead paladins you want), it doesn't allow a save. Tweaking a skill to uber levels (which is largely unnecessary) is easy enough, and you can either stack with enforcer (to not have to get the "+10" before pulling the fear effect) or Dazzling Display (an area-effect based on skill points, rather than their save. Since it is relatively easy to get skill bonuses, you should typically fear off all opponents on a 5 or higher even taking the "-10" into consideration... remember all they get is HD + Wisdom bonus).

Just food for thought.... they pretty much outclass necromancer mages in every way for AE fear.

Slings are amazing for a high-Str character. They're the go-to cheap weapon; bows do eventually get better, but at level 1 it's nice to be able to pull rocks and get your full strength to damage right off the bat. Compare a sling (almost free) to a Strength +4 bow (475 GP)... you get a 2 hp difference. Most melees will be saving up for upgrades to save items, weapon buffs, and armor buffs; so the sling tends to last until they finally have 1K to spare for an adaptable bow (to take care of any str-buff bonuses they get along the way).

I don't think your build can be; look instead at being able to pass your potions to others and be a buffer. Take additional traits (adopted-helpful and whatever else you want), then "Aid another" to give allies +4.

With very poor physical stats and no real focus towards combat, your to-hit (in the BEST scenario, having spent the action to study) is as good as a 2nd level barbarian; with nowhere close to the average damage output. This is fine, as long as you try not to suddenly become a damage output person.

With you and an Oracle, maybe have the 7th level Kyra changed out for something more combat-worthy and "buff them to the max"?

Thalin wrote:

For the record, Thunderstomp (unlike Hydrolic Push) does not REQUIRE the use of charisma, it says "May". You would probably use strength instead, since it is significantly better.

Great at low levels for that "closing" round.

Isn't blade lash pretty consistently better?

Yes, it is; I was just reading bloodrager spells and noticed that one too.

The greater Thunderstomp is where you get a better spell floating around, but that is about at the level where tripping starts to be worthless.

For the record, Thunderstomp (unlike Hydrolic Push) does not REQUIRE the use of charisma, it says "May". You would probably use strength instead, since it is significantly better.

Great at low levels for that "closing" round.

However the enemy spell casters tell me to.

If it's legal in your world Master Summoner is by far the best; you can crank out death-armies of creatures that last minutes/level 10+(1 / 4 levels) or so per day. There is a reason it is banned in PFS :). Having an Eidilon trap-monkey is icing on the cake).

After that, Summoner (Still does it 9 times per day, and with spell-using summons they kinda break it; the game neither expected standard action summons nor summons that stick around for minutes / level... and after about level 7 the summons are better than the Eidilon), then probably Cleric (good support, can summon at least alignment-matching guys as a standard action, and with the Glory domain can radiate heroism to them for extra goodness).

Shield Master is pretty awesome for PFS; a +3 Shield gives you 5 AC and a +3 weapon, and you can put "Keywords" on the shield spike eventually (Holy, etc). That works well with the "cost availability"; a +3 weapon is 18K, a +3 shield is 9K. Eventually you'll have an early +5 Holy Weapon (43K in two seperate components can be had ~level 10).

And Sword-and-board rangers are the first to possibly get that (Level 6).

It's not true. There is one other way to get Blood Money in the RoTRL

And to answer the question: most GMs disallow Permanency in general. And Magic Jar + Blood Money is a non-bo because of the wording; so luckily even in the worst case you need a 15 Str (you can go to 0 during the casting).

As a GM I would personally ask the player not to do it since it will destroy the wealth cap; and as a player if you have a hesitation on doing something like this it is probably good to "not do it"... the object is not to make the game a cakewalk or frustrate your GM.

A trap. Even if their sneak attack was "straight up" a d6 damage every 2 levels they are a trap. The Thug archtype is a great 1-level splash for the Enforcer-type character, but otherwise they don't do the "DPS" they are meant to and have difficulty boosting their AC. Skills should do more; their tricks should be more unique, there should be less "better" skill monkeys in the game.

I keep an open mind when one sits down at our tables, but they always turn out the same (disappointing and frustrated in combat and not really to stand out even outside of combat). I think if you are making the "heavy roleplaying skill-monkey" character. Slayer does the DPS-skill monkey better, too.

And it's nothing new; I had more fun with them in 1st and 2nd edition, where they were more necessary (and nobody else actually had skills)... but it is always the roleplaying aspect. Even there they felt like the odd-man out, only there to detect traps and try to be cool. At least there skills were an exclusive to them; and sneaking was a straight-percentage (not a losing die roll where they had to beat EVERYONE in the room).

These days I still have fun playing "rogue themed" characters, but they are Bards, Slayers, and Swashbucklers.

It depends on "Best Manuever".

At low levels, trip is hands down the best. It is easy to get bonuses (since bonuses from your weapon actually stack), a reach weapon with combat reflexes means opponents never get to you, and there are feats specifically designed to boost it (Fury's Fall gives you Dex AND Str; 5 levels of Manuever Master and you can get 3 stat bonuses to it). It also is easy to get multiple attacks (Vicious Stomp / Greater Trip), and is always a "go to" even in mid and high levels for those that can't avoid it (the flying / swimmers / 100 legged / ooze / elemental /huge... all right, pretty much most things high level). But since levels 1-7 see more play than most others, it is a great early focus.

For solo fights, or fights where only 1 enemy "really matters", grapple takes the cake. A lockdown forcing them to put their damage on the fighty-type (and good luck trying to cast ANY spell... even a quickened still spell has to overcome your CMB + spell level). Stopped by Freedom of Movement, Incorporability... and that's really about it. If you focus and can get to over +30 by 10th level (there are several approaches to this), you will have plenty of options, and even grapple things most don't think possible (in my 12 levels I grappled plenty of dragons). Just remember to save 20K for a flying carpet by level 9 so you can chase-grapple flyers.

Dirty trick is great as a backup to trip (with Manuever Master or "quick dirty trick"). But until you have greater, it can be removed with a move action still enabling casters to remove, step back, and cast their spells. This is why I love the 1-level MM splash... you can Dirty Trick + Grapple, eliminating their ability (even at low levels) of removing the blindness.

Thalin wrote:

They're not as diminishing return as one thinks.

First, at least 1 level of Manuever Master Monk is nearly a requirement for a "really good" CMB-specialist that can do more than just "Only Trip". The reason for this is they are the ONLY class in the game that effectively gives you a free "CMB" attack per turn as part of your attack.

This is untrue. If you're using Flurry of Blows you can replace 1 attack with a CMB at any time. Maneuver Master Monk allows you to Flurry of Maneuvers...which lets you do multiple maneuvers as part of a full-attack action. It also means you can only flurry maneuvers since you're replacing Flurry of Blows.

That is true only for Trip and Disarm. The rest (Reposition, Grapple, Dirty Trick) are standard actions (pending "quick" varient feats, which let you cheat this a little). So things like "Trip-Grapple" or "Dirty Trick-Trip-Trip-Trip" only work with a manuever master until level 6-8 (when you get CMB +6 and first qualify for "Quick" feats, but probably want the "Greater" feats instead). The trip-grapple makes it really easy to lock people on the floor for your buddies to wipe up (they get +6 to hit effectively, and the opponent is -4 on trying to escape with CMB).

Eventaully Two-Weapon Fighting Style combos with your Flurry of Manuevers and actually give you the best of both worlds; whereas Two-Weapon does not combo with Flurry of Blows. Flurry of Manuevers can also combo with Brawler Armor (if you are going the STR route and want to pump damage), again unlike Flurry of Blows.

They're not as diminishing return as one thinks.

First, at least 1 level of Manuever Master Monk is nearly a requirement for a "really good" CMB-specialist that can do more than just "Only Trip". The reason for this is they are the ONLY class in the game that effectively gives you a free "CMB" attack per turn as part of your attack. This is effectively like getting Quick Dirty Trick, Quick Grapple, Quick Bull Rush, etc etc all for free. This should always be your second level if you are multiclassing; since the classes you would use as your first class (Brawler, Lore Warden) have better hp. As an added bonus it has a +2 to all saves and gives you your wisdom to AC (if you are not doing "Brawler armor").

Second, the best race is going to be Tengu. Tiefling used to be the best for a similar reason; natural attacks can be used for "basic" (Disarm, Trip) attacks just like regular attacks (albeit @ -5). There are few other PFS-legal races that get these natural attacks; formally Oni-Tieflings were the best, but like the rest of Tieflings are now banned in PFS.

So now let's focus on CMB. I generally recommend the dex route if you are going to be heavy into Lore Warden (since they have the spare feats you'll need to make this "worth it"). The dex-dump-strength route does have the issue of lowering your CMD (which helps you keep Grappling), but with the best race(s) being Tengu and other dex-based natural attack races, that bonus (and not failing on AC) makes this worth it.

For low levels, Trip is your best trick.... guys on the ground don't hurt anyone, and as a tengu Manuever Master you can take 5 trips a turn if you want. Mid levels as flight becomes more common Grapple takes over; it also is the best manuever for boss fights.

At low levels I tended to disarm after most humanoids were tripped, but since I had a good Wis and Dex and they were -4, I accepted that attack and did not ever bother taking the "Improved Disarm" route. I did the "Ki Throw" thing for a while, but ultimately trained out of those after deciding to cause more damage... and I was starting to run into too many "trip immune" enemies.

For the manuever master "Extra Attack", Dirty Trick is key. At high levels blinding enemies is king; incorporeals aside, it works on everyone (no need to worry about flight, or size, or anything else; they are "just blind", or nautious if you want them to be hit by your spellcasters.

So, my personal build by 5 was (accepting a tolerance of "Min Max")
Tengu Lore Warden 4 / Manuever Master 1
Str: 7
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Dex: 19
Con: 12
Chr: 7

LW 1) Agile Manuevers, Combat Reflexes
MM 1) Improved Trip
LW 2) Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Grapple
LW 3) - +2 CMB, +1 to Dex
LW 4) Weapon Finese, Vicious Stomp (Damage time)

By level 5 you should finally have the PP for your Agile Amulet of Mighty Fist (Dex to damage) and a Dusty Rose Ioun in a WayFinder (+2 CMB, +1 AC).

This places you at:
CMB: +5 (level) +5 (Dexterity) +2 (Improved feat for most relevant manuevers) +2 (Lore Warden) +2 (Ioun Stone) = +16... which sould be plenty to take down even most bosses @ level 5.

Round 1 - typical attack as you close
Trip (+16, you're not flurrying)
AOO (Vicious Stomp) +13 to hit (since they are on ground) for d6+5

Round 2 (or any round you get a full attack).
Dirty Trick someone with your manuever master attack (+14) to blind
Trip them with a claw (they are blind so flat footed -2) - you are at +11 since it is a claw attack.
AOO them as they go down.
Trip any other opponents around (AOO each, see Round 1).. again preferring to use claws and beak to do the tripping and save your more damaging fist.
Disarm anyone on the ground with a weapon (suck up the AOOs).
Finish off with attacks (d6 + 5 can add up with lots of attacks).

At Level 5 you'll have 1 Free Manuever, 1 "Punch Attack", 3 Natural Attacks... and any trips will get you a free AOO.

@ 6 you'll get Fighter Training (Natural) and a +2 Dex amulet for further CMB. I'd also take Improved Blindfighting here (Invis/Dark can be annoying)
@ 7 you'll start into the "Greater" line of feats (you finally qualify) for +2s. You'll also be doing two manuevers when someone gets tripped (Greater Trip + Vicious Stomp work togheter) and @8 you get another +2 from Lore Warden.

From there I would start back into Manuever Master (build up the 5 levels to add your Wisdom to CMB as well; and get better saves. More levels of fighter really don't offer much).

By level 12 my manuever bonuses were in the 30s, and (thanks to Gloves of Dueling and an Insane dex) I was doing d8+10 per hit (not much until you realize I am up to 8 attacks). It's a good build.

Alternatives include staying as Manuever Master (Which costs the Gloves of Dueling and some attack bonuses and limits your number of feats a little; but makes your defenses much better and eventually enables even MORE attacks); and Brawler dip (which eliminates the need for the 13 int).

You have to stay REALLY focused on CMB to make it work throughout your career, but if done right it will be a very fun character to play.

He let the PCs kill him as a show. He had already set up necromatic magics to tether his soul to a Golem creation of his; but realized after creating the swamp area that heroes would be sent to wipe him out, and so he staged an opportunity for some "green" PCs to kill him so everyone would know.

After the task, the PCs are regaled as heroes who stopped the terrible artificer. Send them off on unrelated quests; then start having hints that certain things are going wrong around the town. All signs point to the swamp he originally occupied, but the mayor refuses to admit that the gnome could possibly still be alive, and quashes all rumors to this affect...

It's a non-bo. Just because something says "as a..." doesn't make it one. Same with mithril varients of heavy armor becoming medium; doesn't grant proficiency. The weapon type is still "two handed polearm", regardless of the number of hands you put on it.

If you do this you'd be cheating; pending having a GM house-rule to allow you to do it (it's not overpowered; it simply does not work... so some GMs may allow you to get away with it).

Also added to FAQ request. I play an intimidate (BloodRager / Thug) as well; and am also curious if I can go around frightening paladins with ease when I am bored.

The only way I see to make this class powerful enough is to go away from combat.

Take Fear as your emotion.

Both you and phantom get up to uber levels on Dazzling Display (as well as the feat that makes Dazzling Display increase fear an additional step).

At 7, the Phantasm's aura ensures that pretty much any creature within 20' that does not have the "mindless" keyword runs away. He stays incorporal, both of you fear every turn (you can get your Intimidate high enough to not worry about the growing +5 difficulties; and the party should wipe up with AOOs anyway. Especially since all of your spells are heroisms and hastes that you can cast on them).

Rinse, wash, repeat, you can throw in "Antagonize" for more fun with your incorporeal phantasm.

Straight combat you have to play a summoner; 2 slams are not going to cut it, even with the minimal damage addition of an "Anger" phntasm.

Theorycrafted, but based on a very solid theory.... +20 to a skill is easy enough by 7 with magic items and your spare feat. And a 10 HD creature with 20 wis will then run away on a 5....

Added to the growing list of people requesting this as a FAQ candidate. It's lack thereof will prevent me from building one, since lacking the rage powers makes it semi-worthless.

I don't recall seeing this, but I do want to know how far you guys are okay with me going in terms of the following:

- Language
- Gore/Blood in descriptions
- Depth of role play
- Player Freedom (for example, do you want me to keep it mostly sandbox, or should I help usher things along?)

"Let them go? They're lawbreakers. What kind of example would we be setting for the town if we just let them go." Cimri says through a mouthful of food. "We're being paid for this. Maybe fancy-pants here can deal with sleeping in less-than-oppulent conditions for the gold, cuz I sure don't see any OTHER gold making it into his pocket! I noticed his coin pouch was rather empty as soon as he started his whole better-than-thou parade."

You'll all have to let me know if I'm going too far. I...I tend to do that. I mean no ill-intent out of character.

Discussion is for significant OOC talk.

In the voice of Josh from Drake and Josh, sarcastically shouting "Megan":

"Phlegos!"

Discussion is for significant amounts of OOC talk.

My, my, my! What are those leshys up to?

You know you want to join us.

OPEN RECRUITMENT!
Priority is given to those I have played with, and a few suggestions I've received from my friend; others will be carefully selected after the fact. Your place is not guaranteed, of course.

Please apply below:

What I need from you in this informal interview:
Have you played Second Edition?
How comfortable are you with Second Edition?
How comfortable are you with the Play by Post format?
What kind of character are you willing to play?
Tell me a bit about yourself as a player.
Tell me a bit about your favorite character ever.
And lastly, what do you enjoy most about Pathfinder?

Discussion is for extensive out of character talks, and should be used more for clarification purposes. Anything relating to active gameplay should go in the Gameplay tab with [ooc] if it's not about rule questions.

THE SHOW MUST GO ON!

The link to the slides is above. Please be sure to fill out the second page of the slides with your information. For now, please just put whether or not you have a day job. I'll call for the rolls as we're nearing the end of the module.

A few ground rules: Please use discussion for discussing what to do, unless it's in smaller quantities. (For example, discussing whether to go to area A or area B should happen in discussion, but discussing whether or not a party member needs haste should probably happen ooc in gameplay).

This module is quite RP heavy, so I expect a post every weekday. I'll try to make time to update twice a day on weekdays, but I can only promise one. I also play 2-3 irl games through the weekend, so I cannot make any promises about posting through the weekend. I will do what I can.

When combat comes up, you will have approximately 24 hours from the time I post you're up to respond. If you take too long, I will likely bot your character. I have a specific Alias for "DA BOT" so you'll know if you or somebody else got botted without having to read too deeply into my posts.

Lastly, have fun! This module has some interesting elements in it, and I'm excited to run it for a fun group in play by post.

When you've filled out the sheets above, please make a post introducing your character in the gameplay thread. Once I've seen all the posts, I'll begin the module.

Welcome to the Umbra Carnival!

What I need from you:

Player Name:
Character Name:
Society Number:
Player Number:
Faction:
Starting XP:
Dayjob Check (if any):

Looking forward to GMing this one. Should have a fun bunch o' characters!

bigboom's halfling wants to grapple a dragon. Let's let him have his glorious moment!

A few notes, for those who don't know the spire:

1) Be sure to bring a build with darkvision (specifically for the 1st floor. Feel free to completely rebuild for the second). No really. Trust me. You want DARKVISION. Not torches or the light cantrip.

2) Do not bring a build that relies on charging, your charging opportunities will be limited.

3) To those unprepared for the dangers within, the Spire can be quite deadly. In that regard, you should all plan your characters around each other's. Get some synergy going. You'll want it.

A few notes, for those who don't know the spire:

1) Be sure to bring a build with darkvision. No really. Trust me. You want DARKVISION. Not torches or the light cantrip.

2) Do not bring a build that relies on charging.

Welcome to the Spire.

Table 1.

Table 2.

Feel free to discuss anything non-gameplay here!

A Pathfinder Society Scenario designed for levels 1–5.

“On Sharrowsmith’s Trail” is the first scenario in the three-part Scions of the Sky Key campaign arc. It is followed by Pathfinder Society Scenario #6–14: Scions of the Sky Key, Part 2: “Kaava Quarry” and Pathfinder Society Scenario #6–16: Scions of the Sky Key, Part 3: “The Golden Guardian.” All three chapters are intended to be played in order.

I will be hosting the other 2 parts after this one, with recruiting preference given to those who play the earlier parts!