I'll be making a level 12 spiritualist tonight for slotting into an ongoing campaign, and will be doing a playtest report on it later. Pretty excited to see how it turns out!
I searched but didn't see anyone mention it, but the Etheric Tether ability has this:
This concentration check can be interrupted like a spell with a
caster level equal to 1 + 1 for every 10 feet beyond 50 feet that the
phantom is from the spiritualist.
I think this was meant to be "spell level" instead of "caster level".
I'll be making a level 12 spiritualist tonight for slotting into an ongoing campaign, and will be doing a playtest report on it later. Pretty excited to see how it turns out!
I searched but didn't see anyone mention it, but the Etheric Tether ability has this:
I think this was meant to be "spell level" instead of "caster level".This concentration check can be interrupted like a spell with a
caster level equal to 1 + 1 for every 10 feet beyond 50 feet that the
phantom is from the spiritualist.
Excellent! Can't wait to see your build!
Any hints as to the direction you took?
I'm unsure right now. Originally, it was going to be a self-buffing dwarf, but most spells I found were party buffs. I'm thinking some sort of Man of Faith who took up arms. Phantom-wise, zeal or fear seem the most fun. I have hard time reconciling my views of how I want him to act with the more angry phantoms.
Probably will bank on the idea of not having to care about ASF, as well as all the arcane spells they get, to make some at least medium armored dude who fights.
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Third analysis: buffs and condition clearing
1st: cure light wounds, endure elements, expeditious retreat, mage armor, magic fang, phantom blood, protection from chaos/evil/good/law, remove fear, remove sickness, sanctuary, shield
2nd: aid, blur, cure moderate wounds, haste, invisibility, lesser restoration, levitate, life pact, protection from arrows, protective penumbra, remove paralysis, resist energy, see invisibility, surmount affliction
3rd: cure serious wounds, dispel magic, displacement, fly, greater invisibility, greater magic fang, heroism, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law, nondetection, protection from energy, remove blindness/deafness, remove curse, remove disease, unliving rage
4th: cure critical wounds, death ward, freedom of movement, imbue with spell ability, neutralize poison, restoration, spell immunity
5th: break enchantment, breath of life, disrupting weapon, mass repair undead, overland flight, raise dead, spell resistance
6th: dispel magic (greater), greater heroism, heal, mislead, true seeing
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Now we're getting somewhere. The condition removal spells are solid. The buffs are decent, if somewhat unimpressive.
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Fourth analysis: Utility
I'm not going to go into the specifics, but the Spiritualist has a decent list of utility spells. Definite theme towards the death and undeath and the shades in between, but also some stand-bys like feather fall, identify, comprehend languages, invisibility purge.
This aspect seems to be in pretty good shape.
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Fifth analysis: Summoning and Necromancy
The Summon Monster spells are good, but 6th-level casting progression makes them sub-optimal.
The Animate Dead spells are flavorful, if troublesome for Good PCs and PFS in general.
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Final thoughts
The Spiritualist is good at buffing a party but doesn't have the tools to make his Phantom usable in combat: nothing like Align Weapon or Verstile Weapon to deal with DR, nothing like Bull's/Bear's/Cat's to make up for the Phantom's middling physical stats. The lack of Bull's/Bear's/Cat's/etc. is especially glaring next to the Summoner.
I'd like to see at least Cat's Grace and Eagle's Splendor added to help the Phantom with contact and saves for its Strikes and Auras. Right now its Strikes will only hit a CR + 2 creature about 50% of the time without magic items.
The list of debuffs isn't strong enough to justify an investment in maintaining competitive Save DCs.
A Spiritualist could make their bones having the Phantom use Deliver Touch Spells to buff and remove conditions from party members while the PC stays safely in the back. But I'm not sure what they have to offer beyond that*, which a Cleric can perform plus much, much more.
*Aside from Phase Lurch, which is really good. Really, really good. In fact, I'm guessing it might be reduced to rounds/day.
EDIT:
I also wanted to reiterate my desire for the various Phantoms to be more completely integrated into the class, such as Bonded Manifestations and/or Spells Known specific to each Emotional Foci.
A couple of "Must Haves"that keep cropping up for me....
A method of summoning an armed phantom....almost every concept I have come up with involves the phantom having a weapon from his past life.
This could be done in a variety of way's...
something like the "Ancestral weapon (Su)" revelation from the Ancestors Oracle mystery, triggered when manifesting the phantom.
Making sure "Ancestral Gift" ends up on their spell list...preferably at lower level.
Another concept I had was a phantom that can act out as a poltergeist when the Spiritualist is using "Bonded manifestation"....act's like a localized windstorm in an aura around the spiritualist (blows out candles and torches, scatters papers, causes tree limbs to creek and sway, and can function as the Aether/Keneticist "Telekinetic blast".
P.S. and PLEASE don't reduce the phase lurch ability....it's one of the main things a phantom has going for him :(
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A couple of "Must Haves"that keep cropping up for me....
A method of summoning an armed phantom....almost every concept I have come up with involves the phantom having a weapon from his past life.
This could be done in a variety of way's...something like the "Ancestral weapon (Su)" revelation from the Ancestors Oracle mystery, triggered when manifesting the phantom.
Making sure "Ancestral Gift" ends up on their spell list...preferably at lower level.
Another concept I had was a phantom that can act out as a poltergeist when the Spiritualist is using "Bonded manifestation"....act's like a localized windstorm in an aura around the spiritualist (blows out candles and torches, scatters papers, causes tree limbs to creek and sway, and can function as the Aether/Keneticist "Telekinetic blast".
P.S. and PLEASE don't reduce the phase lurch ability....it's one of the main things a phantom has going for him :(
Thematically, I really like the idea of the phantoms having weapons rather than just punching guys.
Also came up in our play-test last night.
Team-work feats could be an interesting option.
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If your phantom takes Weapon Versatility, it can deal piercing, or slashing damage with it's slam while pretending to use a weapon.
If your phantom takes Weapon Versatility, it can deal piercing, or slashing damage with it's slam while pretending to use a weapon.
Good catch ;)
I think the PDT is aware of this based on the survey questions, but Bonded Manifestation seems intended to get the Spiritualist into melee: a shield bonus, then ghost touch weapons, then tendrils.
But the class has basically nothing else to help it in combat other than a flanking partner.
It would help for planning purposes if we could get some kind of idea of what kind of Pychic spells the Spiritualist will be getting: buffs, direct damage, etc.
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One of the things I saw in the playtests is the power of an incorporeal party member at low level play. I tend to agree - the ability to scout the dungeon without the baddies able to stop this is a bit powerful. Since we're spit-balling here, how's this for a fix?
You must maintain either line of sight or line of effect to your phantom at all times. If both of these are ever lost, your phantom winks out of existence and returns to your psyche. It may be reconjured at any time, using the normal rules. You may use your shared senses ability to prevent your phantom from returning to your consciousness.
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One of the things I saw in the playtests is the power of an incorporeal party member at low level play. I tend to agree - the ability to scout the dungeon without the baddies able to stop this is a bit powerful. Since we're spit-balling here, how's this for a fix?
You must maintain either line of sight or line of effect to your phantom at all times. If both of these are ever lost, your phantom winks out of existence and returns to your psyche. It may be reconjured at any time, using the normal rules. You may use your shared senses ability to prevent your phantom from returning to your consciousness.
I'm not yet sure how much of a problem it really is. At levels 1 and 2, your Phantom is more or less invulnerable when incorporeal, but likewise can't affect anything. At level 3, it can deliver touch spells, but the Spiritualist doesn't have any real game-changing touch spells for it to deliver.
The Phantom can scout, but as soon as it enters the room, its occupants are aware of it and can begin preparations for the rest of the party. The Spiritualist can't make it invisible until level 4, and even then it leaves a trail of slime on the wall when it passes through, so they're going to know something's up. The Phantom has comparably few hit points, so one bad initiative roll could send it back to the Ethereal plane.
And past level 4 or so, anyone really interested in scouting can afford to buy the Gloves of Reconnaissance and see into rooms without alerting anyone.
I'm hoping to test this out more once my Spiritualist levels up a bit more. In his last scenario the Phantom passed through zero walls.
The occupants might be aware of a phantom, but they might not associate it with "the party is coming!". They may just try to shoot it repeatedly or run away screaming thinking it's a ghost. Bonus points if the evil priest tries to rebuke or command it.
The occupants might be aware of a phantom, but they might not associate it with "the party is coming!". They may just try to shoot it repeatedly or run away screaming thinking it's a ghost. Bonus points if the evil priest tries to rebuke or command it.
That reminds me...I can't seem to find a description of what the phantom actually looks like. I'm assuming it's something like the Ectoplasmic Human: "This slimy, shifting mass has the shape of a humanoid, but is made out of what appears to be some form of sticky rope or cloth."
I think the PDT is aware of this based on the survey questions, but Bonded Manifestation seems intended to get the Spiritualist into melee: a shield bonus, then ghost touch weapons, then tendrils.
But the class has basically nothing else to help it in combat other than a flanking partner.
It would help for planning purposes if we could get some kind of idea of what kind of Pychic spells the Spiritualist will be getting: buffs, direct damage, etc.
Well, I don't think spells are really the right way to go for making a class more useful in melee combat. For one thing, a ring of spell knowledge lets other already combat viable classes coopt that power source. More than that, you still have action economy to worry about. That is one of the reasons that I suggested that the phantom could cast spells in place of the spiritualist.
Could this class maybe just get improved spell sharing as a class feature (as per the teamwork feat) with the spirit getting the feat at the same level?
Though I will still note that I would prefer to have passive buffs to the spiritualist based on the type of phantom. Perhaps the abilities of bonded manifestation could be folded into the phantoms as well. That way some phantoms can result in casting/utility dedicated spiritualists while others can do more of the melee/martial stuff (both when the spirit is manifested and when it is bonded).
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The only way I see to make this class powerful enough is to go away from combat.
Take Fear as your emotion.
Both you and phantom get up to uber levels on Dazzling Display (as well as the feat that makes Dazzling Display increase fear an additional step).
At 7, the Phantasm's aura ensures that pretty much any creature within 20' that does not have the "mindless" keyword runs away. He stays incorporal, both of you fear every turn (you can get your Intimidate high enough to not worry about the growing +5 difficulties; and the party should wipe up with AOOs anyway. Especially since all of your spells are heroisms and hastes that you can cast on them).
Rinse, wash, repeat, you can throw in "Antagonize" for more fun with your incorporeal phantasm.
Straight combat you have to play a summoner; 2 slams are not going to cut it, even with the minimal damage addition of an "Anger" phntasm.
Theorycrafted, but based on a very solid theory.... +20 to a skill is easy enough by 7 with magic items and your spare feat. And a 10 HD creature with 20 wis will then run away on a 5....
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Now that Hero Lab has updated with the Spiritualist, I'm updating my build, and I noticed that Surmount Affliction still doesn't have any errata (AFAIK) that would let the spell actually function.
If you all are not aware, it is a spell that lets you surmount an affliction, as the name suggests, such as dazed, confused, frightened, paralyzed and so forth, but because it takes a standard action to cast, you can't actually cast the spell most of the time. Most DMs let it work as intended, but as written, it is a functionally useless spell.
I may have misunderstood this. I thought an incorporeal phantom may not attack? Hated Target <> Shared Hatred so I don't understand how this works while incorporeal.
Shared Hatred (Su): At 17th level, when the phantom
designates a hated enemy, his allies also gain a +2 bonus
on attack rolls and a +4 bonus on damage rolls against that
enemy. Furthermore, he can use its hated target ability even
when he is in incorporeal form.
The Phantom may not be able to attack....but all allies gain the +2 to attacks and +4 bonus to damage.
My only other suggestion for a 'foci' is harder to quantify. I kind of like the idea of a spirit who isn't willing to go on because they want to protect their king/family/nation/ideals...and Zeal just doesn't feel the same to me. Maybe it isn't the right fit here, but that's the one I'm most curious about.
Yes! I would like to see some kind of more "protective" foci myself. Maybe call it "Love?"
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I'm not sure if I missed this, but I don't see anything listing exactly how the Phantom flows from Total Manifestation to staying within the Spiritualist and vice-versa. Looking at Greater Master's Call, which specifically allows the Phantom to withdraw into the spiritualist as part of the action, I assume that the phantom cannot just withdraw into the spiritualist as a free action. Again, I probably just missed it, but I do not see it at all.
Was this ever answered? I'm having a hard time understanding this too.
I played a level 1 Spiritualist in Flesh Eaters last night and had a lot of fun, (although the party would have TPKed in every encounter but for the benevolent grace of our GM) but I was all turned around as to what kind of action it is to push the phantom from the spiritualist's consciouness and manifest it as either incorporial or ectoplasmic. I could find no action listed under Etheric Tether, or under Manifestation on page 57. Bonded Manifestation is a standard, but for the ectoplasmic or incorporial forms there was nothing listed that I could see.
Flavor-wise, is their anything preventing a spiritualist from saying that his or her phantom is actually a whole bunch of different phantoms? That perhaps many different dead people, motivated by a shared emotion like jealousy, are drawn to the spiritualist whose psychic magic allows a local spirit to manifest and obey the spiritualist's will? The phantom's increased strength as the spiritualist levels would be more a reflection of the spiritualist increasing his or her ability to manifest the phantom's deathly state more fully, as opposed to the phantom itself "getting stronger".
Per Mark's post here, if DR soaks up all the damage, rider effects do not occur. This means that a Phantom's 1d6+1 damage will only trigger effects 1/3 of the time they connect on anything with DR 5, and never on anything with higher DR.
That makes the Jealousy spirit (and Fear, if it is meant to be triggered on hits rather than attacks) pretty useless in combat until level 7.
Is that intended?
If not, the Spiritualist is going to need things like Versatile Weapon and Align Weapon or some other way to increase their Phantom's damage. Preferably both.
Probably should be level 3 then, at a guessMine as well! But, this is a playtest, and it's something that can get sorted out officially now, before it makes it into a book.
It's not affecting me at all, anyway; this particular spiritualist does not know tongues.
It should be level 3.
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Manifesting a phantom is under the Phantom class feature, page 50.
A spiritualist can fully manifest her phantom with a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform.
The phantom stays manifested until dismissed by the spiritualist (a standard action) or it is returned to the Ethereal Plane.
Thank you!
Hmm... a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform doesn't feel right to me.Yes, if the phantom has been sent back to the Ethereal Plane, I can understand how a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform would make sense. But, if the phantom is already in the spiritualist's consciousness, 1 minute to fully manifest feels too long, and a ritual doesn't feel right. (The action is described in other places as pushing the phantom out of the spiritualist's consciousness, and this feels more accurate to me. When I played, I imagined the phantom rising up out of the spiritualist's body. I didn't imagine some kind of ritual.)
To go from the spiritualist's consciousness to partially manifested is only a standard action. But to go from their consciousness to fully manifested takes 1 minute? I can understand a full round action. But 1 minute? That is some serious mental constipation.
I'm concerned about the duration of these actions because they hinder the versatility of the phantom. I had a difficult time when I played figuring out how to go from ectoplasmic to incorporial or vice versa. (I only played at first level, so I didn't have bonded manifestation yet, but I don't think it's clear how the phantom goes from bonded manifestation to fully manifested either or how long it would take.) As I read it, the mechanic for moving between forms is clunky: the phantom has to be dismissed first as a standard and then re-manifested in a minute long ritual, which means switching forms can't be done in combat. I'm not sure I understand this design decision. It means that the phantom's form has to be chosen before any combat starts, or rather, the form they are in at the start of combat is likely to be the one they stay in (That's how it was for me when I played). This makes it difficult for the spiritualist to adjust tactics on the fly.
All of this being said, I really enjoyed playing my spiritualist. The phantom has a lot of flavor. It could talk and interact with the spiritualist and other PCs much more so than other types of companions. For example it could scout and report back, it could give the PCs bad advice, all of which was fun for me to role play.
You can find more about the playtest I was in from another POV here: Playtest
Also just realized that the shield bonus from Spiritual Interference is functionally insignificant.
Despite having no shield proficiencies, a Spiritualist can equip a masterwork buckler without penalty. A +1 buckler will give him a +2 shield bonus at all times unless he plans to attack with a 2H weapon.
I recognize that comparing the Phantom to the Eidolon is not necessarily relevant, but I went ahead and looked at their various Ability score point spends:
Phantom: 9 pt buy
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 13
Aquatic: 12 pt buy
Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Biped: 12 pt buy
Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Quadruped: 10 pt buy
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Serpentine: 12 pt buy
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Personally, I'd love to see Con or Cha bumped up to 14 for a total point buy of 11. Preferably Cha, since all the Phantoms but Zeal (so far) have abilities based off Charisma. I'd even be okay dropping Str to 11 if necessary, since the +1 Str Mod isn't doing much as is.
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So with 4 days left in the playtest, this may be largely moot, but should we expect to see any further updates to the Spiritualist prior to the book's release?
I still have at least one more playtest scheduled, but right now my impression of the class is as follows:
Flavor: Very inspiring and evocative. The Phantom is a wonderful tool for creating a vivid character background. I think of all the class companions, the Phantom is the most exciting, and, for lack of a better word, role-playable.
Mechanics: Honestly kind of a mess right now. I'm really hoping that the additional Psychic spells add more options, because right now the class doesn't really have the tools to play any particular role particularly well.
At 3/4 BAB and without Sneak Attack, Inspire Courage, Spell Combat, Judgments, Divine Favor, etc. the Spiritualist doesn't really belong in melee. Abilities like Bonded Manifestation and Spiritual Interference seem like a trap to entice you to try anyway (though maybe Spiritual Interference is more meant to allow you to stay within touch range of the spirit to make better use of Share Spells--if so, I'd like to see the AC bonus type changed to Dodge or maybe Deflection).
The Phantom isn't accurate or powerful enough in its base form to do much in combat and the Spiritualist's spells only provide a minimal upgrade.
The Spiritualist doesn't have enough buffs to play a complete support role. He doesn't have enough, or a wide enough variety of attack spells to be an offensive caster, nor the Save DCs to support such a role.
He can heal and do condition removal, but not really any better than any Divine caster and worse than many.
He's decent with skills, but not comparable to the real skills-y classes like Investigator.
My playtests have admittedly been skewed to the negative because I've been playing up (and probably will be in my next and last playtest, unfortunately). But if my math checks out, I don't think the class will have much to do in combat other than cast Haste (once they hit level 4, before that it's even worse).
So far I've proven to be an exceptional (if not especially stealthy) scout, a decent total-defense tank and not much else.
In summary, I love the idea of the class. I love playing the character. I just don't know what I'm supposed to be doing with it to contribute to a party outside of Phase Lurch. Maybe I'm looking at the class the wrong way?
So with 4 days left in the playtest, this may be largely moot, but should we expect to see any further updates to the Spiritualist prior to the book's release?
I still have at least one more playtest scheduled, but right now my impression of the class is as follows:
Flavor: Very inspiring and evocative. The Phantom is a wonderful tool for creating a vivid character background. I think of all the class companions, the Phantom is the most exciting, and, for lack of a better word, role-playable.
Mechanics: Honestly kind of a mess right now. I'm really hoping that the additional Psychic spells add more options, because right now the class doesn't really have the tools to play any particular role particularly well.
At 3/4 BAB and without Sneak Attack, Inspire Courage, Spell Combat, Judgments, Divine Favor, etc. the Spiritualist doesn't really belong in melee. Abilities like Bonded Manifestation and Spiritual Interference seem like a trap to entice you to try anyway (though maybe Spiritual Interference is more meant to allow you to stay within touch range of the spirit to make better use of Share Spells--if so, I'd like to see the AC bonus type changed to Dodge or maybe Deflection).
The Phantom isn't accurate or powerful enough in its base form to do much in combat and the Spiritualist's spells only provide a minimal upgrade.
The Spiritualist doesn't have enough buffs to play a complete support role. He doesn't have enough, or a wide enough variety of attack spells to be an offensive caster, nor the Save DCs to support such a role.
He can heal and do condition removal, but not really any better than any Divine caster and worse than many.
He's decent with skills, but not comparable to the real skills-y classes like Investigator.
My playtests have admittedly been skewed to the negative because I've been playing up (and probably will be in my next and last playtest, unfortunately). But if my math checks out, I don't think the class will have much to do in...
I think that you are absolutely right.
Melee is a terrible trap and I think this class is demonstrably worse than the other existing "pet" classes (Druid, Summoner, Hunter, the sacred huntsmaster Inquisitor, and even the beastrider Cavalier who can build around pounces and charges and the like).
I think that the support abilities of the phantoms try to save things but the utility of those abilities are extremely uneven and you can't use them enough to ever rely on them and a bard or skald can with their music.
Maybe this should just be a full caster a-la the druid? Has anyone talked about that yet?
I am actually seeing a lot of parallels to the druid (though the druid stays relevant as a martial character much longer). And perhaps this is an opportunity to give this class a lot of spells that make the spirit more useful.
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I just noticed this in the first post:
Spells
Haste should be on the the 3rd-level spiritualist spell list, not the 2nd-level list.
Is that a recent change (last day or two)?
I seriously have no idea what this class is supposed to do in combat anymore. Right now it seems like a test balloon for a nerfed version of the Summoner for Unchained.
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I just noticed this in the first post:
Spells
Haste should be on the the 3rd-level spiritualist spell list, not the 2nd-level list.Is that a recent change (last day or two)?
I seriously have no idea what this class is supposed to do in combat anymore. Right now it seems like a test balloon for a nerfed version of the Summoner for Unchained.
O...k. I certainly hope the designer is going somewhere with this class now. That early Haste was one of the few things Spiritualist had going for it at all.
O...k. I certainly hope the designer is going somewhere with this class now. That early Haste was one of the few things Spiritualist had going for it at all.
And I hesitate to point this out, but Slow is still on the list at 2nd level.
I've got a game scheduled Monday that I was going to use for my final playtest of the class. At the risk of sounding overdramatic, I'm not sure if there's a point to that.
I know the capabilities of the class at level 2. I don't think I'll be able to provide much new feedback other than whether Phase Lurch will trivialize any of the encounters in Merchant's Wake (it probably won't).
If this is going to be the state of the class prior to the book's release, I'd rather try one of the other classes so I can retain the ability to keep playing it in PFS once the playtest ends. Occultist, Medium and Mesmerist seem more polished and much more viable at the moment.
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I don't have a better way to say this: I'm flat-out horrified by the decision to move Haste to third level. After feeling like I had trouble contributing playing down with a level 3 Spiritualist in a 1-2 scenario, the presence of Haste at 4 was a lifeline that would help me contribute to the party's effectiveness, and my Phantom as well...
And I hesitate to point this out, but Slow is still on the list at 2nd level.
I've got a game scheduled Monday that I was going to use for my final playtest of the class. At the risk of sounding overdramatic, I'm not sure if there's a point to that.
I know the capabilities of the class at level 2. I don't think I'll be able to provide much new feedback other than whether Phase Lurch will trivialize any of the encounters in Merchant's Wake (it probably won't).
If this is going to be the state of the class prior to the book's release, I'd rather try one of the other classes so I can retain the ability to keep playing it in PFS once the playtest ends. Occultist, Medium and Mesmerist seem more polished and much more viable at the moment.
Nope....medium is still a mess....at least IMO
At this point I would rather be playing a spiritualist...|
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If this is going to be the state of the class prior to the book's release, I'd rather try one of the other classes so I can retain the ability to keep playing it in PFS once the playtest ends. Occultist, Medium and Mesmerist seem more polished and much more viable at the moment.
Nope....medium is still a mess....at least IMO
At this point I would rather be playing a spiritualist...
Yep... That certainly is your opinion. Medium doesn't feel like a bad copy of a Hunter with a bad copy of the Summoner's spell list. Medium has a clear goal (54 spirits contributing different ways to play) in mind, Spiritualist doesn't really. Despite Medium's executional flaws, several of which are fixed by atm unofficial changes to the class, it has something going for it. As is, Spiritualist feels like it has a weak companion attached to the least useful of the companion classes.
And I hesitate to point this out, but Slow is still on the list at 2nd level.
I've got a game scheduled Monday that I was going to use for my final playtest of the class. At the risk of sounding overdramatic, I'm not sure if there's a point to that.
I know the capabilities of the class at level 2. I don't think I'll be able to provide much new feedback other than whether Phase Lurch will trivialize any of the encounters in Merchant's Wake (it probably won't).
If this is going to be the state of the class prior to the book's release, I'd rather try one of the other classes so I can retain the ability to keep playing it in PFS once the playtest ends. Occultist, Medium and Mesmerist seem more polished and much more viable at the moment.
Nope....medium is still a mess....at least IMO
At this point I would rather be playing a spiritualist...
No way, man. The medium is a daring adventure for people who want to put work into making weird and interesting characters.
The spiritualist is a class that is approaching unusable. How could they take haste off the list? Jesus. This class has very near to nothing going for it.
Just to give some perspective to my expectations for the class, my highest level PFS character is a level 17 Archaeologist Bard. She does 1d3+10 damage fully buffed, her highest Save DC is 21, her best buff is Greater Heroism.
She provides battlefield control with a host of teleportation spells, trips for AoOs with a decent (but not ungodly) CMB and dominates social encounters and traps. She is (in my opinion) by far the weakest character among our local group. And I love playing her.
Which is all to say that I consider my bar pretty low in terms of being able to contribute to a party.
If the Spiritualist has some hidden utility, I'm just not seeing it. I'm frustrated because I've loved RPing my Spiritualist, but I don't feel like I can in good conscience bring him to a group. He offers nothing beyond an early entry, riskier version of the Gloves of Reconnaissance and an increasingly unreliable debuff. I'm feeling pretty burned by this playtest.
Since Haste is a 3rd level spell, does the same go for Slow?
Just to emphasize the difference in moving Haste from 2nd level to 3rd level, here's the DPR of the Phantom I calculated earlier from levels 4 to 6 (when Haste was available at level 4):
4: +8/8/8 (1d6+3), 50% to hit, ~10.2DPR (Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Belt of Dex +2, Haste, Agile AoMF, ~70% WBL)
5: +11/11/11 (1d6+5), 60% to hit, ~16.0DPR (Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Belt of Dex +2, Haste, Agile AoMF, ~82% WBL)
6: +13/13/13 (1d6+5), 65% to hit, ~17.4DPR (Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Belt of Dex +4, Haste, Agile AoMF, Pale Green, ~73% WBL)
Here's what it looks like with Haste delayed until level 7:
4: +7/7 (1d6+3), 45% to hit, ~6.1DPR (Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Belt of Dex +2, Haste, Agile AoMF, ~70% WBL)
5: +10/10 (1d6+5), 55% to hit, ~9.8DPR (Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Belt of Dex +2, Haste, Agile AoMF, ~82% WBL)
6: +13/12 (1d6+5), 60% to hit, ~10.7DPR (Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Belt of Dex +4, Haste, Agile AoMF, Pale Green, ~73% WBL)
The DPR I have calculated for a Rogue of those levels with no buffs or equipment (other than +1 daggers) are:
4: 13.0
5: 14.9
6: 14.9
Just to give some perspective to my expectations for the class, my highest level PFS character is a level 17 Archaeologist Bard. She does 1d3+10 damage fully buffed, her highest Save DC is 21, her best buff is Greater Heroism.
She provides battlefield control with a host of teleportation spells, trips for AoOs with a decent (but not ungodly) CMB and dominates social encounters and traps. She is (in my opinion) by far the weakest character among our local group. And I love playing her.
Which is all to say that I consider my bar pretty low in terms of being able to contribute to a party.
If the Spiritualist has some hidden utility, I'm just not seeing it. I'm frustrated because I've loved RPing my Spiritualist, but I don't feel like I can in good conscience bring him to a group. He offers nothing beyond an early entry, riskier version of the Gloves of Reconnaissance and an increasingly unreliable debuff. I'm feeling pretty burned by this playtest.
I will also note that the archaeologist is an archetype and not a baseline class. It makes sense to play archetypes a little closer to the vest in terms of power.
The cogent point is that this class seems weaker than one of the bard weakest archetypes. I would go so far to say as the investigator has completely obsoleted it (which feels right to me) unless you really like dropping good hope and haste.
Uh... The Archaeologist is actually really powerful as an archery-based hammer, redward just built it wrong. That doesn't really change the fact that the Spiritualist lacks a defined role in the party. I still like it as a touch spell based caster, delivering them through the phantom.
Uh... The Archaeologist is actually really powerful as an archery-based hammer, redward just built it wrong. That doesn't really change the fact that the Spiritualist lacks a defined role in the party. I still like it as a touch spell based caster, delivering them through the phantom.
Yeah? But the luck bonus is the same as the normal morale bonus. Even if you counted on stacking morale and luck bonuses for attack and damage, you could still do that thing with an archivist and also give those buffs to all your buddies. Furthermore, you still would not be as well off as an investigator with the feat that lets you used studied combat with a ranged attack.
That is besides the point though, I suppose. All of these things are much more functional than the decreasingly functional spiritualist.
Uh... The Archaeologist is actually really powerful as an archery-based hammer, redward just built it wrong.
Leaving that alone.
That doesn't really change the fact that the Spiritualist lacks a defined role in the party. I still like it as a touch spell based caster, delivering them through the phantom.
I don't disagree. But here are the touch spells it's got right now:
0: Resistance, Virtue1: Cure Light Wounds, Decompose Corpse, Endure Elements, Inflict Light Wounds, Mage Armor, Magic Fang, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Sanctify Corpse, Sanctuary
2: Aid, Lesser Animate Dead, Blur, Cure Moderate Wounds, Death Knell, Gentle Repose, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Invisibility, Protection from Arrows, Protective Penumbra, Resist Energy, Lesser Restoration, Status
3: Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, Cure Serious Wounds, Displacement, Fly, Heroism, Inflict Serious Wounds, Magic Circle Against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Nondetection, Obscure Object, Protection from Energy, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Tongues
4: Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward, Imbue with Spell Ability, Inflict Critical Wounds, Neutralize Poison, Restoration, Spell Immunity
5: Breath of Life, Disrupting Weapon, Plane Shift, Raise Dead, Slay Living, Spell Resistance
6: Harm, Heal, Greater Heroism, Shadow Walk, True Seeing
(bold spells can be used offensively, spells in italics take longer than one round to cast and are unlikely to be applied via the Phantom)
So right now the best use of the Spiritualist seems to be delivering touch-based buffs and condition removal to allies via the Phantom. Which is nice, especially with the increased concentration difficulty in casting Psychic spells. But that means the Spiritualist has to stock their limited spells known with situational things like Remove Sickness and Neutralize Poison and that he has little to do when allies are not suffering from any conditions.
Uh... The Archaeologist is actually really powerful as an archery-based hammer, redward just built it wrong.Leaving that alone.
That doesn't really change the fact that the Spiritualist lacks a defined role in the party. I still like it as a touch spell based caster, delivering them through the phantom.I don't disagree. But here are the touch spells it's got right now:
0: Resistance, Virtue
1: Cure Light Wounds, Decompose Corpse, Endure Elements, Inflict Light Wounds, Mage Armor, Magic Fang, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Sanctify Corpse, Sanctuary
2: Aid, Lesser Animate Dead, Blur, Cure Moderate Wounds, Death Knell, Gentle Repose, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Invisibility, Protection from Arrows, Protective Penumbra, Resist Energy, Lesser Restoration, Status
3: Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, Cure Serious Wounds, Displacement, Fly, Heroism, Inflict Serious Wounds, Magic Circle Against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Nondetection, Obscure Object, Protection from Energy, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Tongues
4: Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward, Imbue with Spell Ability, Inflict Critical Wounds, Neutralize Poison, Restoration, Spell Immunity
5: Breath of Life, Disrupting Weapon, Plane Shift, Raise Dead, Slay Living, Spell Resistance
6: Harm, Heal, Greater Heroism, Shadow Walk, True Seeing(bold spells can be used offensively, spells in italics take longer than one round to cast and are unlikely to be applied via the Phantom)
So right now the best use of the Spiritualist seems to be delivering touch-based buffs and condition removal to allies via the Phantom. Which is nice, especially with the increased concentration difficulty in casting Psychic spells. But that means the Spiritualist has to stock their limited spells known with situational things like Remove Sickness and...
I am not so sure if a "touch based" casting class is really all that great. Like: how much is really gained there? The cleric is already a great "touch based" buffer since he has the armor to stand near enough to the fight to begin with.
What is a ranged touch buff that is actually worth using your action for consistently? I can only think of enlarge person off the top of my head. And I REALLY don't think an increase in range is going to catch this up to a cleric or a wizard (especially considering that the wizard can have an invisible imp or pseudodragon deliver some spells).
If you want to work the range angle then maybe the spirit could act as the source of ANY spiritualist spell (not just those with a range of touch). Even then I am unimpressed because you don't have full casting so you run out of spells relatively quick.