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And there was much rejoicing!

What updates are there that could be used immediately?

As far as I know Wizards getting Simple Weapon Proficiency & Bards and Rogues getting martial weapon proficiency could be implemented right away, though the martial bard Muse would need something. I don't have a martial bard in my upcoming game though, so that isnt an issue.

So, I'm probably going to be starting up Abomination Vaults soon, and maybe Sky King's Tomb in July.

I'm tempted to pick up the spell cards for my players, but I'm a bit gunshy since I don't know how many spells are going to be redone.

Has there been any word on whether those are a good purchase or if they will wind up needing new versions after Remastered launches?

Loving this so far! I am really looking forward to seeing what the occult dragons look like.

Basically what it says on the tin.

Do gods in the setting need worship to live?

Do they get hungry and die if they don't get prayer steak?

Please cite if possible.

Thank you.

The only thing I can think of is "Boosting an ability score increases it by 1 if it’s already 18 or above, or by 2 if it starts out below 18" for your 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels. This only has an impact at level 10 since at level five you are either boosting 17 or 18 to 19 at the most.

Everything else seems to be all modifier all the time.

Am I missing something that makes the 3-18 legacy have any value by the core rules?

I didn't have a better alliteration for G and speculating was already taken by sorcerers in a previous thread.

So there is a spirited debate about these classes overwhelming another thread.

Personally, I'm of two minds.

One is that if the only reason to have specific rules for swashbucklers/Gunslingers is to have a focus on the traditional weapons, then they can easily be an archetype or even just a series of feats and builds.

However, the charm of the classes for me was the risk/reward mechanic that was seen in panache/grit. If there could be a mechanic that centered on that sort of daring-do, then I think that a Daredevil/Maverick/Swashbuckler/Gunslinger could be a good class on its own.

"Stand Against the Darnkness" That darn kness has to be stopped!

I noticed The Grande Temple of Jing is getting at least a Kickstarter for a multi system version, including PF2. Not sure that it is going to make it, but I thought we could use a place to alert the community about possible 3rd party offerings coming to play.

Has anybody else heard of anything in that vein?

Conversations and arguments about alignment and alignment based character classes are inevitable. There are people from all walks who like or dislike aspects on a wide range of intensities. This thread isn't here to say how things are or should be, but just a place to talk about it without derailing the excellent What Do We Know thread.

That being said, I do have some thoughts...

One thing that seems likely is that Pathfinder 2e is going to be more integrated with setting and rules than 1e was. Or at least, that is what I'm going to be assuming for this conversation.

So what do Champions want? Since they are alignment focused, but not specifically religion focused, maybe they want the material world to be more like the plane that exemplifies their alignment?

Not so much physically, mind. I doubt that even the most devout Chelaxian Diabolist wants their villa to wind up like one of the estates of Hell. I mean more in the line of philosophy and ideals.

Paladins for example, could champion virtue and defend the weak partly because that is what would make the world more like Heaven where the purpose of strength and security is to increase benevolence.

The Anti-Paladin might not like particular parts of the Abyss, but might admire a world where self-indulgence is the highest virtue and being strong enough to take what you want and crush anybody who stops you is the only thing that matters.

Diabolists, Tyrants, Hellknights and the like pursue what C.S. Lewis' Screwtape would call "the realism, dignity, and austerity of Hell" and won't tolerate the delusions, flippancies, and waste of other philosophies.

Primarily though, the thing that got me wanting to make this thread was the Neutral Champion types.

Lawful Neutral Champions take after Axis. Everything has a place and a correct way of doing things. They support civilization over savagery, knowledge over ignorance, stability over change, but aren't particularly concerned with whether these things are good or bad. Harmony above all, even above mercy or cruelty.

Chaotic Neutral Champions take after the Maelstrom and embrace both freedom and mutability. The world is a place of boundaries and limitations that must be tested and overcome, but mastery and openness to change is highly individualistic and both getting in the way of others and letting others drag you down is to be avoided. The only reason to mess with another is to break their shackles, even if they are comfortable and content in them.

But the True Neutral Champions... those are the mysterious ones to me. The ideals of the Boneyard would be what they walk along side, but "balance" is hard to work with. It can be internal for sure, but a philosophy of moderation in all things (including moderation) doesn't make for a crusading sort of outlook. Champions in general should be pretty proactive, but somebody going about the world trying to balance a metaphysical ledger is its own kind of awkward.

A True Neutral Champion might not be concerned about balance to much as conflict or dichotomies.
Dichotomies are most easily seen with Pharasma. The living and the dead should not be messing about with each other or seeking to unnaturally prolong their state, so those TNCs who are of a Pharasmin bent go after undead and immortality seekers with equal vigor.
They might also be convinced that the Great Beyond is an inherent danger to the Material Plane and try to preserve the world's neutrality in the cosmic conflicts by beating down any intrusions as if even an angelic host being around for too long is like a brushfire.

The world of Golarion is a delicate place and forces assail it from all sides. A True Neutral Champion might not care if a particular area is good or evil so much as whether it is Good or Evil. If one city is steeped in corruption and crime, but it is all mortal failings then why bother? But if another city is propped up by celestial influence or someplace has Proteans constantly stirring up the landscape or humans and fae keep wandering back and forth along the First World borders, then a TNC might become quite bothered indeed.

We know for sure that magic in the new setting order has four Essences. Material, Mental, Spiritual, and Vital.

We know for sure that there are at least four kinds of magic based on a combination of these essences; Arcane based on Material and Mental, Divine based on Spiritual and Vital, Occult based on Spiritual and Mental, and Primal based on Material and Vital.

That leaves two combinations; Mental and Vital, and Material and Spiritual.

What do we think can fill those slots?

I'm a fan of Psychic magic being Mental + Material and I think there is room for some sort of Shaman or Elementalist being Material+Spiritual.

However, there could also be space for single essence users as well. Kineticists could be completely focused on Material. Mesmerists could be Mental specialists. Spiritually dedicated characters could be Mediums. I'm not sure what a Vitalist class could map to, but it could be a magnificent healer or a frightening source of damage.

Anybody else have opinions or insight?

Over in the "Predictions on future books" thread there is a conversation about archetypes. I think it is a good conversation, but it is risking hijacking the thread away from the talk about future books.

There is also the "Pathfinder 1 Style Archetypes" thread, which is pretty specific and I don't particularly want to hijack that one away from its topic either.

So I'm going to start up a new thread! I'm going to start this party off by crossposting some of the ideas from other threads I think are relevant.

Though honestly, the number of non-Occult Classes that really need to be converted has always struck me as reasonably small (specifically, we need Oracle and Witch, with Summoner, Investigator, Shaman, and maybe Arcanist being a very good idea, while the rest are perhaps better served as Archetypes and the like, as Cavalier already seems to be handled).

I feel like Arcanist could just be a Class Archetype for Wizard, honestly.

I think Inquisitor would justify having it's own class as opposed to archetype. I'm torn on whether Magus should be a class or not. But I think there is enough there to justify one. But yeah, we probably don't need Gunslinger, Vigilante, Shifter or most of the hybrid classes as full classes. Same for the Alternate classes of Ninja and Samurai. With Antipaladin likely to be the CE Champion. Most of those can be served with specific class feats, or archetypes on other base classes. But I'm with you that the Occult classes are all mostly different enough to make sense as their own things. Well Spiritualist might be doable as a Summoner archetype and Psychic might work as a variant of another casting class with Psychic spells. The others are really weirdy.

Crap. I meant to add Inquisitor to that list of those that should be converted, I just screwed up.

But yeah, more or less agreed.

And Arcanist is only on the list for mechanical reasons. Thematically, it as a high impact Archetype of Wizard is plausible enough.

Honestly, I'm not sure we need a Grit/Panache mechanic. We certainly could have one, but I'm not convinced it's either necessary or should be tied to the swashbuckler aesthetic.

It's the other one I'd consider converting for pure mechanics reasons along with Arcanist, though, I admit.

Guess I'm a Deadmanwalking fan on this topic.... moving on!

I scanned the forum, but didn't see this topic.

On the next iteration of the forums can the reply function please prioritize the person we're actually responding to instead of the heavy chain of nested quotes they might be dragging?

It is merely annoying on a PC to have to edit the quotation so the post I'm referencing is actually quoted instead of "..." , But on a phone it is ridiculous.

Hello, good forumites.

I opened this thread to have a place to better discuss skills instead of proficiencies (I don't care what you say, spell check, I'm going with that). Mainly because the two things are different enough that talking about what constitutes Thievery over in the proficiency thread is a bit off topic. Not much, but a bit.

To help the conversation along, I'm going to post sets of skill names that other games have used to see what people think of them. These will be copy and pasted from character sheets and Wiki pages, so please forgive the formatting. I'm specifically leaving GURPS and Star Wars (WEG) from the list because of their breadth of very specific skills that don't map much with Pathfinder's narrower lists.

Here we go!

I mean literally.

I'm contemplating War for the Crown as the next AP that we do and since it is set in Taldor I was thinking about pitching a particular character concept to a couple of PCs.

Basically they would be siblings who both took up the sword and studied the Rondelero martial arts, but from different directions. One through the Fighter archetype and one through the Swashbuckler archetype.

Ideally they would be friendly rivals, but I'm not sure if one option is clearly superior to the other and I wouldn't want to make the pitch if things were unfair from the start.

I do intend to use Combat Stamina for the fighter, though. It has worked well so far.

My players are likely to be into the flavor of it, but does this seem like a viable set up mechanically?

I know they exist, I've seen them on the character sheets. I'm just curious about the form they take. Are they drinkables only or can they be administered in a hypospray sort of device?

I can't find the names of the things... what were they actually called?

I've read a number of Shatter Defenses threads, but they all seem to be focused on the activation criteria and I'm curious if there has been any change or FAQ that I can reference about the duration. Specifically the "until the end of your next turn."

Do I have this right?

Round 1: Shatter Defenses Activates.

Round 2: Shatter Defenses continues until the end of the round.

Round 3: Shatter Defenses needs to be reactivated.

Good afternoon, everybody. I could use some brainstorming, if you would be so kind.

I have a player who is enjoying his crit heavy fighter so far, but we are hemming and hawing over where to go from here. So far everything has been pretty fun, but advancement advice would be welcome.

Right now we need a feat choice in particular, but leveling options for the rest of his career would help as well.

Here he is, have at him!

I've been using the paper minis for Reign of Winter and both I and my group are big fans of them, but I'm going to have to cut down on them, I'm afraid. They are just so expensive to print out in full color!

Now, I can go for blank and white prints, which will certainly save me money or I can pick up some of Paizo's pawns, which could be slightly less, but will also be more durable and have some long term potiential.

Has anybody broken down what sets you'd need for Reign of Winter? Specifically I only need them for Rasputin Must Die and Witch Queen's Revenge.

I remember something about Rexus (sp?) looking like Tim Curry to some people, including me.

It makes me wonder, does anybody have any actors in their heads for the rest of the cast of NPCs?

My game started back up again at last and though the adventure logs aren't coming in as fast as I'd like to repost them here, the PCs are enjoying themselves quite a bit.

The downside is that they nervous about tackling Artrosa with the way they are. Granted they are Mythic characters, but they are still coming out of every fight looking like John McLain on a bad day. The ranger's AC is 17 and the cleric's AC is 18. They want to fix that, so they are going on a little side quest/raid.

Their plan is to get a wagon, go down to Daruthrost, plunge into that desolate place and then, on the way back, make a stop by Zvartjan and see what sort of treasure might be there.

Of course that is only the big ambitious plan. They will probably go back up north after Daruthrost (I'm planning a big Barghest/Goblin Tribe thing that I've always wanted to try) as it will sorely tax them, but just in case...

What could possibly be in Zvartjan? Cyclopes ghosts are obvious, but what else might raise a fog over the placid lake and drive explorers away?

The previous thread chronicles Snows of Summer.
How about some PC stats? These are post session 9 stats, by the way. Session 10 is tomorrow. Don't pay too much attention to the gear. A lot of stuff is written down on the hard copies.

And of course, poor, doomed Tenpenny. Tenpenny who doesn't bear the Mantle. Tenpenny who will surely not survive the defenses of the Hut. I imagine that tomorrow afternoon the party will have another reason to hate the Hag Queen.

Are the players ready? The stage set? Give a seat by the fire and lets begin catching up with the Reign of Winter.

I thought that the forum might like to see a write-up of the first session of my Reign of Winter game. The next session is on Friday!

I only deleted real names to protect the innocent. All spelling and grammar mistakes are to be considered (sic). Enjoy!

McManus – Human Cleric of Sarenrae
Anjana – Vanara (minkey) Zen Archer
Sven Sienson – Human Viking
Zevus Djaggara – Elf Wizard (needs food badly)
So’Nej – Half Orc Ranger

The mid summer festival was in full swing when things began to change.

Old Mother Theadora had a seizure during the festival and made a mad rant prophesizing that a blanket of winter and darkness flapping in the wind would doom us all. Everyone was concerned and sought comfort while she rested and recovered. Soon after the event, a summer storm began up on the mountain and quickly made it’s way down to Heldren, covering the area in a blanket of snow and cold much colder than in seasons past and never at this time of year.

A day or so later, Uul Northman staggered down the mountain and into town, seriously wounded. He was with Lady Argentine guarding her carriages when they were attacked by bandits and cold fae. The Lady was kidnapped and taken away up the mountain. He explained that cold fae are best fought with hot fire or cold iron and that they all swear an allegiance with the White Witches of the North.

So’Nej, Sven, McManus, Anjana, and Zevus assemble to investigate the attack and what is happening on the mountain and hope to rescue Lady Argentina. They quickly gather provisions and cold weather gear and head up the mountain to the site of the attack on the carriage.

When they arrive, they cautiously approach the nearest carriage where they can hear someone fumbling around inside. So’Nej sniffs the air and informs the others that whatever is inside, is not alive. The party prepares to attack whatever comes out and they free the carriage doors so the 2 zombies inside can lumber out. They are quickly dispatched. While So’Nej searches the Lady’s carriage, the rest of the party gathers her dead (and recently re-dead) guards and lays them out respectively in the carriage so wandering animals will not disturb their remains and Sven follows tracks up the hill where Lady Argentine has been absconded with. So’Nej finds a box of her jewelry with her signet ring and is able to get a scent from it to track her. Further up the hill, Sven is hit by a log (trap) and knocked back down the hill. He decides to wait for the rest of the party.

Tracking the Lady and her kidnappers up the hill, the party finds themselves in a snow-filled bowl with high sides and just as they are getting uneasy in the waist deep snow, a Tatsul Wyrm attacks Zevus and drags him off into the bowl under the snow. The party springs into action and saves Zevus, killing the wyrm. This is a creature that should be at home far, far to the north and should not be on this mountain.

The party continues to trek up the mountain and comes across a copse of trees with strange bundles of sticks wrapped together and hung from the trees. As the party gets closer, they see that they are not made from sticks, but are crows that have been killed and mutilated. It is at this time that they are ambushed by 3 little fae creatures with wings and deadly bows. Zevus goes down first, then Sven, then Anjana, leaving only So’Nej and McManus to defend the group. Things look grim as the fae get confident and close in, but So’Nej has other plans. He lashes out and grabs one of the little fae out of the air! Squeezing it tightly, he puts it’s head in his mouth ready to bite the little bastard’s head off. The other 2 fae back off and McManus starts a hostage negotiation ending with the 3 fae leaving the party alone forever in exchange for So’Nej not having a mid-day fae snack. Before the fae is released, it is interrogated and the party finds out the fae were way further south than they thought they were and that they were scouts for the White Witches of Irrisen (which is ruled by the Djadwiga family).

After leaving the fae scouts, the party finds it’s way to Wishbone Creek where the river is frozen solid and a solitary snowman standing guard on the near side of the river. Sven approaches the snowman and it says to him via a magic mouth spell “Trespassers Turn Back!”. Sven, not pleased at being called a trespasser, attacks it and it’s head explodes with a piercing shriek.

As the party crosses the river, they are attacked by ice elementals bursting up through the river ice, but the enemies are quickly dispatched. On the other side of the river, they find Old Man Dansby frozen solid in a snow bank by the side of the road. It appeared he was up on the mountain hunting when he was attacked and he must have bled out and his corpse froze after he died.

McManus was hit by the ice elementals a couple times and was suffering from the extreme cold so the party made camp for a few hours to warm up and have a hot meal. At this time, an elk appeared nearby and spoke to the party about being heroes and whatnot. He too was surprised to find himself so far south, especially at this time of year, but wandered off just the same. As they break camp, the party surmise that the White Witches have figured out a way to expand their wintery realm in preparation for an invasion of some sort.

After trekking further up the mountain, the party hears some noise up ahead. So’Nej scouts a bit and sees 3 bandits in blue arguing over who gets what share of a treasure. It is decided that So’Nej will sneak around behind the bandits and approach from the other side to create a diversion so the others can rush up and not worry about sneaking in their armor. So’Nej creeps around and positions himself. He throws his spear and shish-ka-bobs one of the bandits clean through the middle, killing him outright. With the other two bandit’s full attention on So’Nej, the rest of the party rushes in and attacks. It is over so quickly, the party remembers afterward that they wanted to take a prisoner.

I remember awhile back that Erik Mona had background write ups for the party that went through Age of Worms. A Wee Jas Cleric, little Demon Boy guy and a few others that I can't recall.

Does anybody have links to those? I can't seem to find them.

Thanks for your time!