Jhofre Vascari

Some Kind of Chymist's page

Organized Play Member. 167 posts (171 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character. 3 aliases.


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Bimrezzik wrote:

Basic Lessons, Lesson of Fate (Occult), pg 38

Under Basic Lessons, all Lessons provide either a cantrip or 1st level spell for the familiar to learn. The exception being the Lesson of Fate which provides Augury which is a 2nd level spell.

Does a 1st level witch get to cast this at 1st level or must they wait until they get 2nd level spells in order to cast the spell?

Should augury be replaced by a cantrip or 1st level spell?

No, you just can't cast it until 3rd level. It's written in the text for Lessons that some lessons can grant spells higher than you can currently cast amd you just have to wait until you can cast spells at that level.

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Tusk the Half-Orc wrote:
The 1st level Oracle feat Divine Element has flames mystery as a prerequisite and only provides additional spells for the flames mystery, but opens with: “Your mystery allows you to cast certain spells that most others can’t. Add the following spells to your spell list, depending on your mystery.”

It's almost certainly a feat for most mysteries, they just don't all have options for that feat yet (i.e. its gated to flames in the playtest but wom't be in the APG) -- it's more than possible that the spells the other mysteries would get aren't core but from the APG (and they are playtesting spells)

Hopeful Thunder wrote:

"It is hoped that one might bring wisdom and insight to the peoples of Golarion regarding the Duke of Thunder. It is likewise one's hope that the path to this wisdom does not end one, given one's tendencies to emulate one's patron and fly into combat. One need not be a cleric or devotee of sacred tenets to discover wisdom."

This is specifically why I think we will get divine witchez at some point, because it rolls in well with Shaman type characters. I just don't know if that'll be day 1 APG or a class archetype later on (maybe even in the APG -- I strongly suspect the APG will reintroduce 4 base classes, but that more than 4 classes are coming bak in some form.)

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Mr. Paru wrote:

Certainly the first thing that comes to mind is; Why the witch has no access to Divine tradition)

I mean, your Patron can be an Angel or a Devil that we already saw in the sorcerer who grant Divine magic.

I think there will eventually be divine witches, maybe not in the APG but at least eventually, there are reasons for them not to be at least not as 'core'.

1. This set up has 3 spellcasting classes per tradition (not that it matters but if parity is a goal it does keep it)

2. The divine list has a lot of spells that poinf directly towards a diety, lke divine lance and all the ones that reference a divine weapon, which makes the whole mystery patron thing very complicated (with sorcerers and oracles its easy enough to say its whatever diety you follow but with witches some external force is definetly giving powers and that might be Nethys even if you follow Desna, so who's alignment/weapon/etc do you use)

3. Thematically, some external source gave me divine powers is very much an error thst has options, e.g. Cleric.

And most importantly in my mind

4. Witches kind of thematically fit the same role as Warlocks do in other games, making deals with unknown powers. The phrasing in the patron text even makes it semi clear that the divine beings at play granting these powers are trying to stay incognito and i feel that, at least storywise, divine magic is an awful lot easier to track back to the being that granted it. That is to say, most things that are divine that could make a cleric could make a witch. And if they don't need to hide who they are they'd just make a cleric who HAS to do what they say, rather than a witch that they're hopibg does what they want.

Either way, I'm glad we got our prepared any class.


I have been actively interested in and being reading rulebooks / splat books / lore / forums / etc. since 2010ish (I was fairly young at that time) for various Tabletop RPGs, especially Pathfinder. I've been following Pathfinder in more depth since about 2013/2014, and also Starfinder since it was intially announced.

I have actually played a tabletop RPG once, for 2 hours, at a demo game at a convention, in early 2011, which means that, given the booth was run by WotC (they also had MtG at the same spot), means it was most likely DnD 4e (memory's hazy, it was quite a while ago).

Mostly due to a lack of time (Soon I will be free of the horror of studying full-time, soon, please dear god let it be soon), not having friends all that intrested in the idea and living in a medium sized city without a huge gaming prescence (and in a weird timezone to boot) i have yet to sucessfully find a RPG group (or start one as a GM)

I really want to finally play a tabletop RPG; paticularly Pathfinder 2E which I've been following on and off since the announcement of the playtest (and very much on since about a month before release through to now). Obsessively creating characters is fun and all, but I feel like there is supposed to be more to it than that.

So, internet community of fellow PF fans, how would you recommend someone final play the game instead of just reading the game.

It's not game breaking by any account, and has no issues at the moment but there exists a disconnect between phrasing in the sorcerer entry and the the sorcerer dedication.

The sorcerer class entry says you are trained in one or more skills determimed by your bloodline (all existing bloodlines grant 2 skills, the spell lists associated skill and usually a CHA skill (except Imperial who get society)).

The sorcerer dedication says you become trained in the sorcerer's two skills.

This does not currently cause problems, and should not be on the top of any sort of errata list but it does seem like they built in the versitailty to have bloodline with only 1 or with more than 2 bloodline skills and then neglected that when the MC dedication got written.

Here's hoping for more cool bloodlines, with more cool abilities.

You never become more trained in bombs through the alchemist dedication.

Alchemist don't even go beyond expert in bombs.

More or less the alchemist MC path lets you trade some class feats for some interesting versatility. It's good on something like a Wizard, with an INT that will already cover the preq. and have more class feats than great options for some builds. It's also not bad on Thief Rogues who aren't as constrained with ability scores as some other classes.

Also you aren't making stonger items (at least not with infused reagents, you could as a downtime activity) as you level unless you grab Expert Alchemy and Master Alchemy. They increase your advanced alchemy level, which determines the max item level you can make with ingused reagents. The base dedication just lets you make more stuff per day as it scales, not better stuff.

I just wish it had a line in Expert and Master alchemy that gives you maybe 1 formula per level of advanced alchemy or maybe 1 every other level.

As for getting a familiar, Gnome adopted ancestry, Druid MC, Sorcerer MC and Wizard MC are all also options, and if you pick an occult bloodline sorcerer you get 2 cantrips that use your occult proficemcy thst actually scales (not that the occult list has cantrips with attack rolls that much) and training in 2 skills, probably free choice skills as you already have occultism and probably have the other CHA skills.

What level of development of musical instruments is present in the inner sea?

What is considered uncommon in terms of instruments on Golarion. Guitars? Accordions? French Horns? Marimbas? Theremin? Fiddle? Oboe?

Golarion doesn't exactly map to earth in time periods for a whole lot of things so what do people think the line is for what would be a weird instrumemt for a bard to be carrying around?

Grease is a classic and is a pretty awesome spell.

Synesthesia does look awesome as a debuff.

Do people think Imperial or Draconic bloodline makes a better base for a sorcerer that doesnt use its focus spells? and what school is good for Arcane Tattoos feat chain (from LOCG); was thinking abj for imperial bloodline (shield; feather fall; glyph of warding) or evo for draconic (electric arc; gust of wind; wall of wind)?

Lost Omens Character Guide is the best thing to happen to sorcerer's so far in my opinion.

As the title says; what are peoples favourite spells, any tradition; any level [if anyones working on a spell guide feel free to link it here].

I'm working on my sorcerer build and ned to pick all my spells known (yay) and want to know what people better at identifying good spells than me like about certain spells.

Current Preliminary Build Details:
Ancestry: Human (Skilled)
Background: Magaambya Academic
Class: Sorcerer (Draconic Bloodline maybe replace w/ Imperial)

Ancestry Feats

1st - Arcane Tattoos
*3rd - Natural Ambition
5th - Ornate Tattoos
9th - Virtue-Forged Tattoos
13th - Multitalented [Bard]
17th - General Training

General Feats

3rd - Ancestral Paragom
7th - Incredible Intiative
11th - Incredible Investure
15th - Fleet
*17th - Toughness?
19th - Diehard?

Class Feats

*1st - Dangerous Sorcerey
2nd - Magaambyan Attendant Dedication
4th - Arcane Evolution
6th - Halcyon Speaker Dedication
8th - Crossblooded Evolution [Heal as 1st level Signature Spell?]
10th - Cascade Bearers Spellcasting
12th - Halcyon Spellcasting Intiate
14th - Flexible Halcyon Spellcasting
16th - Greater Mental Evolution
18th - Halcyon Spellcasting Adept
20th - Halcyon Spellcasting Sage

Skill Feats

1st - Recognise Spell
2nd - Arcane Sense

Skills @ Level 1


Is 14 Dex too low for a wizard, leaving an AC of only 15, (18 HP @ lvl 1) or will it be fine?

I really like the idea of a Dwarf wizard (or Alchemist) but they can't get the 18 INT / 16 DEX set up i would usually want for a Wizard.(Not a fan of using the optional flaw system)

Is 16 INT / 16 DEX the better way to go or is 18 INT / 14 DEX okay. I'm also thinking Abjuration specialist so will that be enough to offset a low AC?

Any advice appreciated

Other than bomber alchemist of course what sort of class/ancestry/stat array would you go for a character focused on throwing axes/darts/clubs/daggers/etc.?

Do gods have good aligned and evil aligned (Celestial/Monitor/Fiends - sorry I dont know what the overall group name in PF2 would be) "minions" if they allow followers of that alignment?

For example would Gozreh have agathions and some manner of fiends in his service?

You get 28 Lore Skills to Legendary as a Human Rogue (Maybe more but you can definetly get 28 there by using all 20 skill feats; all the general feats; Ancestry feats and the Pathfinder hopeful background). and if your building to just keep getting more and more skills you can be at least trained in every skill and 14 more lore skills (Boosting INT everytime you can and multiclassing 4 times (last time with ancestry) - Druid; Sorcerer (Occult bloddline to grab occult evolution for the extra skill); Cleric and Bard (Where you pick up bardic lore to cover everything else [You can put the 14 other lore skills into profession type stuff so you can still have a use for them]).

I think at that point you might have to worry about Lore subcategories overlapping.

Gnomes are a pretty awesome ancestry for spellcasters, and can be used to cast 6 focus spells without refocusing. A wellspring gnome (Arcane) that is a wizard with a school can grab the following feats and cast 6 focus spells without refocusing once per day.

Ancestry feats of animal accomplice (to get Familiar Focus) and Energized font. Then for class feats grab Bard Dedication at 2nd and Bard Muse's Whisper at 4th to get Loremaster's Etude. 6th and 8th class feats are Linked Focus and Advanced School Spell.

This absolutely terrible build can cast 6 focus spells in a once out start of the day Nova (That do very little because wizard focus spells aren't brilliant) at 8th level.

Can anyone else figure out a way of casting more focus spells than this withouy refocusing and what are some focus favourite ways to Nova? 15 minute working day adventurers unite!

Paradozen wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

"What is the difference between Pathfinder Society Lore and Pathfinder Lore?"

In that instance I think they are the same thing (assuming PCs lack meta-knowledge that they're in an RPG, though that would make for an interesting Lore!).
Couldn't the difference be that pathfinder lore covers important people in the pathfinder society (pathfinders) while pathfinder society lore covers the organization in a broader scale, monitoring how they interact with other factions and understanding how they are organized?

It makes me think of the diffrence between a railway fan or someone that works on a railway or a wrestling fan and a wrestler. People who work in an industry tend to have different knowledge than people who are fans of that industry.

Pathfinder society lore is like fans of football who might now all the stats and stuff where as pathfinder lore is more like being a footballer, you might not now all the stats, but you can actually kick a ball.

As the title says.

Specifically; could a say 12th level druid using wildshape undercast it to turn into a say a medium size bear (the lvl 2 version) instead of a huge bear? Just thinking about how many of those spells make you bigger when heightened, and how that could sometimes make things tricky.

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If we ever get a Strix ancestry we can make Harvey Birdman, Attorney at Law.

The two I've been batting around aren't to original but I love them all the same.

The hag bloodline sorcerer I've thought up has a raven called Quoth (I know, typical), with fly (obviously) and Familiar Focus at 1st level and Cantrip Connection and Speech at 2nd with enhanced familiar.

The Squirrelmancer (Abjuration Wizard w/ Improved Familiar Thesis and Enhanced Familiar) that i desprently want to play, use squirrels as his familar/s ( I imagime he'll probably lose one or two alomg the journey). Spell delivery, climber and cantrip connection, to start, preparing other abilites according to the needs of the day. Considering gnome adopted ancestry or something else to get speak to animal. He's inspired by scientists with lab animals they've become attached to.

I like the new familar system, hopefully we get more options in the APG.

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John Lynch 106 wrote:
In a PF1e Council of Thieves game I had a wizard who was also a lawyer (got reincarnated into a gnome at one point and was using magic or possibly a hat of disguise to keep up appearances and attend court and such).

I really hope you flavoured it as one of those wigs they wear in courts in Commonwealth countries.

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Options in the new edition have shown me how awesome the idea of lawyer is as a character background.

It's just so thematic for so many types of characters: Clerics of Abadar, Asmodeus, Sarenrae, Pharasma, amongst other dieites along with scoundrel rouges, bookish wizards, charismatic sorcerers and many more.

So, Let's see what Lawyer PCs people have put togther; I'm sure some folks have thought up creations beyond my wildest dreams.

Also, I feel, depending on the GM and campaign, that legal lore can be a super useful skill (shame for my Cleric of Sarenrae that it keys of INT though).

The only thing that's a negative for the lawyer concept is that the Truth domain isn't very stong. (Don't get me wrong; I love the Word of Truth thematically [and vaguely remember something in PF1 that was similar that I also thought was cool], but it isn't very strong unless you have a very nice GM that is on board with it).

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Trap Options: 1001 Pptions for Traps for GM's and PC's

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The amount of type it took for me to realize that it was a pun, and not some complaining about something again, brings me shame.

Hopefully kobolds in the APG gets some good trap synergy in their ancestry feats.

The standard text for familiars is that it can communicate empathically with you to a range of 1 mile, sharing emotions. The question is, how much information is this?

For example, if Quoth, the hypothetical raven familiar, were sitting on their masters shoulder and they succeded their perception check to spot the trap and their master didn't. Do they send out a message saying watch out for the trap or do they just send out a generic danger, danger Will Robinson signal.

Also, can anyone clear up the phrasing on Cantrip Connection. Also, Also, with Familair focus, the wizard/sorcerer/druid/etc. Spends 1 action to give its familar 2 actions, so that you gain a focus point; correct?

And, on Familiars/AC/Minions/etc. Do they act when you give the command on your turn or immediately after your turn i.e. could you chain 1 action focus power, Familiar Focus to immediately regain a focus point and then another focus power or does the minion action happen at the end.

I'm trying to make fun new characters in PF2 but at the moment I'm stuck in a rut and am always making the same basic sort of character; and they're always human.

So; Here goes out the call for any and all non-human characters you've made. To see if they can't serve as inspiration to me and others.

I want to see what weird and wonderful Goblins; Gnomes; Halflings; Dwarves; and Elves are out there; whether there playing to or against type; big or small; rare or well-done.

And if anyones got a Dwarven Bard stashed up their sleeve I would be extra happy to see it. [Also; how do you deal damage with a bard with the instrument and all]

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Trip weapons let you do four things

1. Perform trip without a free hand.
2. Use the weapons reach to perform this trip.
3. Add the weapons item bonus to the athletics check
4. Drop the weapon to downgrade a critical failurw to a normal failure

How does this interact with Wolf Jaw strikes; which a monk can do in Wolf Stance if they are flanking?

I assume you can add your item bonus from handwraps of mighty blows; but can you 'drop' wolf jaw (leave the stance) to avoid a crit fail.?

Bonus Question: You can't enter a stance outside of encounter mode; does that mean you can't deal piercing damage with Wolf Jaw strikes outside of combat to an object?

Lycar is correct. You can also always take a lower level feat with a higher level feat; e.g. You can take Advanced trickery at 16th level and get and 8th level rogue feat.

Either way you're never actually "rounding" with MC Feats because you can only get them at even levels.

It's future proofing to allow for other mounts to be introduced in future books.

The goblin dog thing is because they can be mounts, its just a special ability of the person riding it, not the animal (Goblins). The way that ability is written though will probably get errata'd or FAQ'd though.

Also, as I understand it, you can mount anything bigger than you, it just takes a bunch more penalties. You can definitely ride any animal companion bigger than you (by a size category); but you take penalties unless it has the Mount special ability.

I don't know Desna's views on other members of the order Lepidoptera but if you expand it to include moths there are some other terrifyingly large examples out there. I've seen ones about the size of a pigeon near my house before (It wasn't alive at the time, if it where my screams of terror would have extended miles).

If anyone's ever looking for monster ideas I recommend taking a look at the native flora and fauna of Australia and South East Asia for inspiration. Then again we don't have bears/wolves/wolverines/etc. so it evens out in the long run.

I think they will build the witch in one of two ways

1. Prepared Occult Caster + A Schtick

2. Prepared Anything Caster w/ Patrons like Bloodlines.

I was thinking it would be the former until watching that Friday stream and now I think it might be the later. Either way I hope they get some good familar stuff. Hopefully other classes get some good familar stuff in the APG aswell. Maybe familars are of a type that depends on your patron (e.g. Abberation for Occult; Celestial/Monitor/Fiend for Divine; Fey/Animal for Primal; Construct/Etc. for Arcane) if its the second way.

Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

Universalist hands down for me, especially with the Bond Conservation class feat. That feat is a bit of a game changer that becomes better the later in the day it is and the more spells you have cast.

Plus as a half-elf wizard, and with the metamagic thesis, I get a total of four bonus class feats to play with :D

3; the wizard 1st level feat was a typo. Still a lot though.

Wasn't expecting the Barbarian angle on speed; unexpected but awesome; so I guess its time for

Build Challenge 2: Pushy Person

How far you can you knock back a creature?

The Rules
- No miracle or wish or similar
- Kicking them off a cliff doesn't count
- Goal is pushing a character as far as possible (any forced movement counts); assumes its not a dwarf; or better yet; assumes its an Orc Warcheif from the Bestiary and that it has infinte health so you don't accidently kill it while pushing it.
- Again no pre-buffing
- No other rules; surprise us.

Push to Start!

Edit: Assume everything that could hit does hit i.e. the Orc fails all his saves.

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Post your build challenges here and your responses to those challenges. Lets see what strange monstrosities of min-maxing we can come up with.

Build Challenge 1: Run Away

Fastest Character wins.

The Rules
- Up to Level 20.
- Most squares moved in one turn is the winner (excluding teleport and similar but including focus powers and such that allow for moving X times your speed or similar)
- Buffs allowed only if they are applied by you on your turn where you are moving as far as possible (chugging a potion, casting haste on self etc)
- Assume no AoO
- No external help from Liberator Champion or similar.

Bonus Points for a fast wizard that runs away (Rincewind Style)

Let the Race Begin!

Micheal Smith wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:
Am I safe in assuming the extra d8 above is coming from the Precision Hunter's Edge? If so, why isn't it granted to the archer as well?

Because he gave the archer reduced MAP instead. Which is better for an archer.

What is MAP?
Multiple Attack Penalty

To further explain; every attack (which includes strikes; spell attacks; combat manuevers and a few other things) after the first in your turn incurs a penalty on the attack roll (or check technically) which is usually -5 for the second attack and -10 for the third and any subsequent attacks. Agile weapons (weapons or actions with the agile trait) have a progression of -4 on the second attack and -8 on the third and any subsequent attacks. Some special abilites (such as some ranger abilities) can further reduce these penalties in some cases.

jimthegray wrote:
Fromper wrote:
Pun-Pun wrote:
Meh the star stone test isn't THAT hard.
If there's reading involved, then no goblin will EVER succeed.
i guess my goblin wizard/barrister azik the souless will need to be the 1st one to do so then :P

Were they a 'lawyer' in their goblin tribe or are they a Goblin Rights Activist or something else. I wish to know more of the goblin lawyer.

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Yay! Pathfinder Friday and Starfinder Wednesday are back.

*starts dancin'*

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graystone wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I like the Staff much more than the Wand for "the thing the Wizard just carries around all day".
The staff is one hand, half a dozen wands are in this holster opposite the free hand.
Bandolier holds 8.

Quick draw wizard duels.

I've always liked the idea of a character that pulls out and uses wands/bombs/scrolls/devices/etc. a wizard with a bunch of wands fits that nicely. You, max out at 10 per day though if you don't wear any magic items [12 if you grab a feat and have a high charisma]

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Worth noting.

In my homegame we did x =/= The published setting of Golarion does x.

If the homegame your playing has always chaotic evil goblins go for it; but that doesn't mean thats what Paizo has been publishing

EDIT: I spelt Golarion wrong for the 100th time.

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PF2 still has wands of cure light wounds; we just call them Paladins now.

But i do like the new wands; they fill a fun design space.

Also side question on the familiar front; I assume my familiar counts as a willing creature for spells but what about other animals.
*Cough* Enlarge creature on random vermin as a distraction *cough*

Hiding around a corner while having the familiar deliever the spell is a cool idea (when you have no line of sight).

I'm also not saying that familiars aren't useful; they're super useful with abilities (thats why i'm making a squirrel wizard). I was merely wondering if in a squirrel vs. Reach spell battle for delivering touch spells if the squirrel or the metamagic won.

The TLDR version first; Is there a mechanical reason to use spell delivery instead of reach spell?

Longer version;
I'm creating a wizard (Human / Animal Whisperer Background) with the Improved Familiar Attunement thesis with the title A Combined Experimental and Theoretical Study on the Magical and Mundane Methods of the Training; for the Purpose of the Delivery of Spells to an Individual that Usually Require Tactile Contact (Excluding the use of Standardised Metamagical Techniques) Between the Primary Caster of the Spell and the Individual to Experience the Magical Effect; of Squirrells and other Small Mammals, with a Paticular Focus on Spells that Fall Within the Purview of the Arcane School of Transmutation. So it is a foregone conclusion I'm going to use spell delivery on that character for flavour reasons. [Recommendations for how to get the ability to talk with animals without MC into druid (I imagine throwing squirrels at your enemies is anthamea to druids (unless in the pursuit of protecting nature i guess) would be appreciated]

But i was wondering if there is any actually mechanical reason (other than maybe saving on a wizard feat) to use spell delivery instead of reach spell? Spell delivery has a shorter distance (25ft speed + attack to touch) and a bigger chance of failure because its a lower modifier when the familiar is doing attack roles.

Either way I'm looking foward to my squirelly wizard.

You could have one of each though.

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I'm making a wizard with the improved familiar attunement thesis (he was studying using squirrels to deliver spells). I'm quite looking foward to my squirrelly Wizard (even though he will never likely get played).

Has anyone made a familiar character sheet? I can't find one in the Character Sheet Pack.

Gamuniga wrote:

The cover is by Wayne if I’m not wrong. His style changed quite a bit it seems: now it’s a bit less cartoony, and more... paint-like?

I prefer The PF1 style.

About dwarves, what creeps me is the wide nose (page 166), they remind me of a bull terrier.

They decided to change the look of various ancestries to be more iconically Pathfinder and codify the difference between halfling and gnome looks and etc. with the new edition

WAR said in a panel somewhere (it was on twitch, will probably be on Paizo's youtube page soon) that the dwarves where changed to have a more T shape in their faces; hence the nose. IIRC it was changing dwarves faces look more like the stylised dwarves in sculptures/armour/etc. I.e. when it came time to change the dwarves look they made them look more angular in the face because in-universe stylisation of dwarves in their own art had them with angular faces; so they probably look like that; if that makes sense.

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Rarity is their for two main reasons as I see it.

1. They introduce something later, maybe a special cantrip taught in Kyonin or something, and not have it instantly accesible to every character (which the GM can 100% allow)


2. It's a tag to say, this spell/artifact/whatever might cause problems in your game, allow it if you wish, perhaps make it an epic quest of discovery, for example going on an epic adventure to get Fabricated Truth and try and pull an inception on the King, but be wary. Its there to warn people that something probably has implications on the game and story that a GM should consider before handing them all out.

It has the potential to be a good and usefull system; it could also be a not great one, I guess we'll have to wait and see how it feels in play and what gets published in the coming years.

PF2 tries to make choices (and adventures), matter, gating some stuff that might make the game less intresting for some play styles is one way of doing that. If you don't like rarity; and neither does your group; its rather easy to house rule it away.

Edit: I just realised fabricated truth isn't uncommon (I do want an inception stlye adventure path though). Example instead could be Remake and a destroyed artifact.

Also do all the iconics look like there looking at not the dragon; like they're all looking at the same thing; but that thing isn't the dragon; as if there is some bigger scarier dragon off to the left. Overall I think the art is fairly good; other than Harsks beard.

Ehh; it's no worse than PF1; with the caveat that the change to Harsk threw me for a loop. And the dragon on the cover of PF1 CRB has the upper jaw (I went back and checked after I saw a panel where WAR said the design of the dragon hadn't changed); its just at an angle where its more noticable now.

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Barbarians =/= Fighter =/= Other Martials.

Barbarian feats are what you miss out on and various boosts to raging amongst other things.

If you want to play a Fighter that MCs into Barbarian thats fine, but it's like saying champion multiclassed into cleric is a better cleric, maybe for something but its not generally true.

And Barbarians can get AoO at 6th level; Heavy Armour isn't that much better; the iconic idea of a barbarian doesn't use a sheild, they use a 2 handed weapon (and you can get shield block as a general feat); and barbarians get expert in weapons at 5th level (they do cap at master though).

The iconic idea of a fighter is well trained and skillfull; the iconic idea of a barbarian is someone who hits like a truck, even if they miss more often.

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