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On page 22 of the Lost Omens World Guide, the Pathfinder Hopeful background grants you training in the Pathfinder Society Lore skill as well as one other Lore skill. On page 23, the Pathfinder Agent Dedication archetype feat grants you the Pathfinder Lore skill (or upgrades it to expert if you already had it).
I strongly suspect this is an error and should be the same skill, but it got me wondering, how long is it going to be before we see more of this? Published lore skills that the writers basically made up on the spot, and thus have a high risk of overlap with other lore skills published by other authors?
I've seen a Animal Lore a lot, which is odd, because I thought Lore was supposed to cover specific creatures. One day, I'm certain we're also going to see a Dog Lore or Bear Lore skill or something. The question then will be, why not use Animal Lore? What information is Dog Lore going to get me that Animal Lore won't?
I'm sure there will be Alcohol Lore and Wine Lore or something like that someday too. (I feel like I might have seen it somewhere already.)
What is the difference between Pathfinder Society Lore and Pathfinder Lore?
Without any sort of structure, it seems to me that Lore skills are going to quickly become worthless, or so narrowly defined as to be practically worthless.
Do you think Paizo has taken steps to prevent this (perhaps by keeping a running list of Published Lore skills to use as reference for future publications)? I certainly hope so!
Should skills with such potential overlap exist (as Animal Lore and Dog Lore)? Is it really the problem I perceive it might be?
Discuss.
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Should skills with such potential overlap exist (as Animal Lore and Dog Lore)? Is it really the problem I perceive it might be?
I don't think "overlap" is what you're concerned with there---it's one Lore being a strict subset of another Lore. And I don't think that's problematic, assuming Animal Lore isn't too general to exist in the first place.
Any question answerable with Animal Lore can be answered with Nature, but Animal Lore gets to use a lower DC because it's narrower. So Dog Lore should get to use a lower DC still.
Similarly the Vampire Lore used as an example in the CRB presumably gets lower DCs than the Undead Lore you can get from backgrounds Lastwall Survivor, Geb Crusader, and Quick, and from the Lastwall Sentry Dedication (all in LOWG). (Personally I think Undead Lore is so broad it should have DCs barely less than Religion's.)
Besides the question of how much lower a Lore's DCs are, there's how much detail you get out of them. The CRB's commentary on breadth of Lore skills is
You gain a specific subcategory of the Lore skill from your background. The GM determines what other subcategories they’ll allow as Lore skills, though these categories are always less broad than any of the other skills that allow you to Recall Knowledge, and they should never be able to fully or mainly take the place of another skill’s Recall Knowledge action. For instance, Magic Lore wouldn’t enable you to recall the same breadth of knowledge covered by Arcana, Adventuring Lore wouldn’t simply give you all the information an adventurer needs, and Planar Lore would not be sufficient to gain all the information spread across various skills and subcategories such as Heaven Lore.
That clearly implies that Magic Lore, Planar Lore, and even Adventuring Lore exist, just not as powerfully as one might hope. Not only should Planar Lore face higher DCs than Heaven Lore on a Heaven question, it won't get you as much info even on a success. So Dog Lore should get you more doggy details than Animal Lore ever could, and Vampire Lore should be superior to Undead Lore the same way.
I don’t think this is an issue at all
Lore skills are deliberately narrow and pretty much flavour only. In the vast majority (if not almost all) cases the only Lore anyone will have seems like it will be the “free” one granted by a background
In which case it isn’t something to get concerned about
The case you mentioned is only an issue if you think someone is going to want to take two different very similar lores. I just don’t see it
I don’t see, for example, the inevitable future build guides assigning optimisation colour ratings to Lore skills.
They are a bit of fun and flavour and if also encourage a little creativity if you want to try and make a case for being able to roll it in a certain circumstance
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"What is the difference between Pathfinder Society Lore and Pathfinder Lore?"
In that instance I think they are the same thing (assuming PCs lack meta-knowledge that they're in an RPG, though that would make for an interesting Lore!).
As for the others, there's no problem because the DCs set by the GM are supposed to account for the specificity. So if you took Lore: Undead, you'd have a normal DC for a Nosferatu check (akin to the DC for a PC using Religion) while somebody who took Lore: Vampire might have an easier roll. A PC who flat out chose Lore: Nosferatu (a niche build) would have the easiest DC of all (and I imagine have a hard time finding places to make a living...un-living?)
So a person with Wine Lore is limiting their Lore more than the already limited Alcohol Lore, but when wine is the topic, boy are they on it!
(And hopefully they don't flub that possibly only shot ever they get.)
(I think there was one PFS scenario involved with a wine merchant, though I can't say the Lore would've been useful even then except maybe to converse.)
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Where are the rules stating that narrower lore skills should have lower DCs?
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Where are the rules stating that narrower lore skills should have lower DCs?
Implied more than stated, but
You might use different DCs for a task based on the
particular skill or statistic used for the check. Let’s say
your PCs encounter a magical tome about aberrant
creatures. The tome is 4th-level and has the occult trait,
so you set the DC of an Occultism check to Identify the
Magic to 19, based on Table 10–5. As noted in Identify
Magic, other magic-related skills can typically be used at
a higher DC, so you might decide the check is very hard
for a character using Arcana and set the DC at 24 for
characters using that skill. If a character in your group
had Aberration Lore, you might determine that it would
be easy or very easy to use that skill and adjust the DC
to 17 or 14. These adjustments aren’t taking the place of
characters’ bonuses, modifiers, and penalties—they are
due to the applicability of the skills being used.
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Lore skills are sort of intentionally fuzzy since they exist to represent "my character is knowledgeable at this specific thing which is not especially useful".
Like "Cooking lore" and "Baking lore" are both entirely valid lores, and the former is arguably a superset of the latter. But if you want your character to be "I am extremely good at making cakes, pies, breads, and pastries but I do not know how to corn a beef" you take baking lore.
Lores are useful for making money in downtime, whenever a check is called for using that lore, or whenever you can sell "my expertise applies here" to the GM. Like arguably baking lore could be applied to identify ergotism while cooking lore could not.
Where are the rules stating that narrower lore skills should have lower DCs?
In the playtest. :) It was in a sidebar in I think part 2.
So that's a good question of whether that mentality transferred over to PF2 itself, officially or unofficially. And apparently it did.Under Adjusting Difficulty:
"You might decide a DC should differ from the baseline, whether to account for PCs’ areas of expertise or..."
So if you have Wine Lore, then wine would be an area of expertise if say the adventure called for an Alcohol Lore check re: wine. I don't think choosing narrower Lore is particularly useful because except for extreme circumstances the advised adjustments are small, both in the sidebar and the current rules. Better to have more opportunities to use your skill.
And another thing is, there's already a ton of overlap in Arcana/Nature/Occult/Religion before even getting to Lore. I think that's a good thing because topics often can be approached from several directions, i.e. Elementals, Rituals, or spirits. I'd adjust the knowledge gained to reflect which skill was used. Some PFS scenarios do this.
ETA: I should take Ninja Lore given how many are on this thread!
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I don't think choosing narrower Lore is particularly useful because except for extreme circumstances the advised adjustments are small...
The example posted by Fuzzy-Wuzzy above seemed to have a difference in DC as high as 10 points (24 for arcana or 14 for aberration lore). That's not small at all!
I don't think choosing narrower Lore is particularly useful because except for extreme circumstances the advised adjustments are small...The example posted by Fuzzy-Wuzzy above seemed to have a difference in DC as high as 10 points (24 for arcana or 14 for aberration lore). That's not small at all!
It was on +1 or +2 before! And then +2 on the chart for an "easy" task, so I guess specific Lore can make things really, really easy.
That's interesting when it comes to themed campaigns!
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I don't think choosing narrower Lore is particularly useful because except for extreme circumstances the advised adjustments are small...The example posted by Fuzzy-Wuzzy above seemed to have a difference in DC as high as 10 points (24 for arcana or 14 for aberration lore). That's not small at all!
Sure, but five of that goes away if you have the right 'normal' Skill. Lore in and of itself seems to be a 5 point difference in DC at most.
Not that 5 points of DC is a small difference...
I don't think choosing narrower Lore is particularly useful because except for extreme circumstances the advised adjustments are small...The example posted by Fuzzy-Wuzzy above seemed to have a difference in DC as high as 10 points (24 for arcana or 14 for aberration lore). That's not small at all!Sure, but five of that goes away if you have the right 'normal' Skill. Lore in and of itself seems to be a 5 point difference in DC at most.
Not that 5 points of DC is a small difference...
I mean, presumably it could be any of the DC adjustments, which range from -10 to +10 compared to the standard difficulty - I think you'd need a pretty laser focused lore to ever get the -10 DC though.
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"What is the difference between Pathfinder Society Lore and Pathfinder Lore?"
In that instance I think they are the same thing (assuming PCs lack meta-knowledge that they're in an RPG, though that would make for an interesting Lore!).
Pathfinder lore does in fact give you meta-knowledge, but incorrect meta-knowledge; your character knows about PF1.
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I mean, presumably it could be any of the DC adjustments, which range from -10 to +10 compared to the standard difficulty - I think you'd need a pretty laser focused lore to ever get the -10 DC though.I don't think choosing narrower Lore is particularly useful because except for extreme circumstances the advised adjustments are small...The example posted by Fuzzy-Wuzzy above seemed to have a difference in DC as high as 10 points (24 for arcana or 14 for aberration lore). That's not small at all!Sure, but five of that goes away if you have the right 'normal' Skill. Lore in and of itself seems to be a 5 point difference in DC at most.
Not that 5 points of DC is a small difference...
The example given was 5 harder than normal for outside the field and 5 easier for specificity. So 10 difference between two applicable examples, not 10 difference from a baseline.
I think for 10 easier you'd need Lore: This Exact Book We're Looking At.While that seems funny, an Elf Ancestry Feat lets you do that, which may pose a problem if such incredible bonuses come from it. That 1st level feat would be better than Legend Lore. The easy way around that is to defend the plot by requiring Expert level or higher to Recall Knowledge on such plot-relevant topics (arguably because it's secret, uncommon, or rare). Of course that only delays the issue until 9th level where they can completely overhaul their skills into Expert.
"When today's training in a Lore skill wears off, I'll retrain to make it permanent. Then when tomorrow's Expert rank I gave it wears off, I'll make that permanent." So 2-3 days and it's a legitimate Lore skill in exactly what they want to know about.
PFS is gonna need some guidelines on that for any adventure over multiple days. I could see an Elf Wizard with slots they assume they'll swap out. "Oh, a trip to where? To visit whom? About what?" One week later they know everything before the ship arrives.
*sigh* Kinda wish I hadn't noticed that, but as I expect to return to GMing PFS, I guess it's for the better now before at the table.
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The example given was 5 harder than normal for outside the field and 5 easier for specificity. So 10 difference between two applicable examples, not 10 difference from a baseline.I mean, presumably it could be any of the DC adjustments, which range from -10 to +10 compared to the standard difficulty - I think you'd need a pretty laser focused lore to ever get the -10 DC though.I don't think choosing narrower Lore is particularly useful because except for extreme circumstances the advised adjustments are small...The example posted by Fuzzy-Wuzzy above seemed to have a difference in DC as high as 10 points (24 for arcana or 14 for aberration lore). That's not small at all!Sure, but five of that goes away if you have the right 'normal' Skill. Lore in and of itself seems to be a 5 point difference in DC at most.
Not that 5 points of DC is a small difference...
Yeah, but what I meant is that 'Very Hard' (+5), 'Easy' (-2), and 'Very Easy' (-5) as given in the example are specific adjustments described in the book - 'Incredibly Hard' (+10) and 'Incredibly Easy' (-10) are also options, as well as plain old 'Hard' (+2).
Yeah, but what I meant is that 'Very Hard' (+5), 'Easy' (-2), and 'Very Easy' (-5) as given in the example are specific adjustments described in the book - 'Incredibly Hard' (+10) and 'Incredibly Easy' (-10) are also options, as well as plain old 'Hard' (+2).The example given was 5 harder than normal for outside the field and 5 easier for specificity. So 10 difference between two applicable examples, not 10 difference from a baseline.I mean, presumably it could be any of the DC adjustments, which range from -10 to +10 compared to the standard difficulty - I think you'd need a pretty laser focused lore to ever get the -10 DC though.I don't think choosing narrower Lore is particularly useful because except for extreme circumstances the advised adjustments are small...The example posted by Fuzzy-Wuzzy above seemed to have a difference in DC as high as 10 points (24 for arcana or 14 for aberration lore). That's not small at all!Sure, but five of that goes away if you have the right 'normal' Skill. Lore in and of itself seems to be a 5 point difference in DC at most.
Not that 5 points of DC is a small difference...
Yeah, I was thinking the shifts would be "easy" to "hard", but it seems the CRB example goes further. With bonuses/penalties having more effect in PF2 than in PF1, I'm a bit shocked on one hand, but pleased as it gives value to investment. I wouldn't want everybody to focus only on the big 4 (or 5 if you count Society).
"What is the difference between Pathfinder Society Lore and Pathfinder Lore?"
In that instance I think they are the same thing (assuming PCs lack meta-knowledge that they're in an RPG, though that would make for an interesting Lore!).
Couldn't the difference be that pathfinder lore covers important people in the pathfinder society (pathfinders) while pathfinder society lore covers the organization in a broader scale, monitoring how they interact with other factions and understanding how they are organized?
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Couldn't the difference be that pathfinder lore covers important people in the pathfinder society (pathfinders) while pathfinder society lore covers the organization in a broader scale, monitoring how they interact with other factions and understanding how they are organized?
In theory, but it's pretty clearly just a typo.
Don't think if it as a tangle - think of it as a tango!
...
Although I was initially a little disappointed at the consolidation of skills (due to a personal preference to the contrary), the "Lore" skill remains the place where the skill system can be more approximal than definitist.
What do I mean? I'm not quite sure how to explain it, but I'll give an example:
Let's say I'm DMing a skill challenge of some sort, and players have to go around the table and decide how to contribute. Let's say the structure is one of three types.
1) Either, a "single round" challenge in which everybody must declare a different skill, justify it, and roll.
2) Or, a "multi-round" challenge in which everybody must declare a different skill with each new round, justify it, and roll.
3) Or, a skill challenge in which I decide upon 3-5 skills ahead of time, name them but then explain to the players that they have different DCs (and I'm not telling which in which), have them choose a skill, or justify another skill instead, and roll.
In all these cases, there is the need for different skills, as well as the need to think of a justification. This is where the Lore skill shines. If you can think of a way to apply your (random?) Lore skill to a situation, and even a reason why the DC you would roll against using that Lore should be easier, then I think Lore is working as intended, because I have found people tend to enjoy exactly this scenario.
...
Which is to say, if you are dancing with your partner, and having fun with them while doing your best to demonstrate good floor craft, nobody is going to be too upset if somebody's toes get stepped on a little bit.
Couldn't the difference be that pathfinder lore covers important people in the pathfinder society (pathfinders) while pathfinder society lore covers the organization in a broader scale, monitoring how they interact with other factions and understanding how they are organized?"What is the difference between Pathfinder Society Lore and Pathfinder Lore?"
In that instance I think they are the same thing (assuming PCs lack meta-knowledge that they're in an RPG, though that would make for an interesting Lore!).
It makes me think of the diffrence between a railway fan or someone that works on a railway or a wrestling fan and a wrestler. People who work in an industry tend to have different knowledge than people who are fans of that industry.
Pathfinder society lore is like fans of football who might now all the stats and stuff where as pathfinder lore is more like being a footballer, you might not now all the stats, but you can actually kick a ball.
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Lowering the DC for having the correct doesn't make sense as each and every character has each and every lore skill. Even if it is untrained isn't the idea of the DC being 5 less (or more) make the idea of have more specific lore = lower DCs not work?
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Firstly, I'm not sure that 'every character has every lore skill' is technically correct. (EDIT: Double checked the lore entry and it does say you can recall knowledge untrained, so you are right there.)
It doesn't really matter, though, because you don't get a lower DC for having the correct lore skill, you get a lower DC for using the correct lore skill - there are maybe a couple levels where your modifier in all those untrained lores won't be far and away worse than the trained or better skills you could be using instead, to the point where a lower DC would still be a loss for using them.
Lowering the DC for having the correct doesn't make sense as each and every character has each and every lore skill. Even if it is untrained isn't the idea of the DC being 5 less (or more) make the idea of have more specific lore = lower DCs not work?
That's a great point. At the lowest levels the -5 DC (or even -10!) is better than the +2+level for Trained. At 7th, Untrained Improvisation makes all Lore skills available w/ your level bonus, even the most precise that would gain you that -10 DC advantage.
(It's already bad enough that feat competes w/ Bardic Lore!)*sigh* Going to need errata, even if it's as simple as:
"The GM determines what other subcategories they’ll allow as Lore skills,..." which thankfully I just found under the skill.
There's still room for abuse because some specific Lores do exist, i.e. Vampire Lore. Add Unmistakable Lore and it gets a bit powerful.
It's kind of funny that most of the divination magic has been raised in spell level, lowered in utility, and/or made uncommon. Just use Lore. :)
Or a GM. They're around for a reason. :)
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I should take “Lore - Rovagug”, but I wanted to specialize and took “Lore - Terrasque” instead.
I have been pretty adept at identifying things that are not a Terrasque, so far.
So if you crit fail, you think you're facing the Tarrasque?
"Not again!!!"
Monk facepalms. "Every twentieth time.... I'll go get him."
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That sucks for PFS.
For home games I'll be handing out lists of lore skills. A player could make up their own, but it would require approval
So if I had animal lore and someone came to me with canine lore "because I want it to include hell hounds and hounds of tindalos" I would allow it. But unless I was going to feature such creatures (and if they came to me with such a specific request I might just do that) I would highly recommend they take animal lore instead.
My current thinking is:
* 1 Lore Skill per country
* 1 Lore skill per religion (for Eberron this means Sovereign Host, Dark Six, Silver Flame, Blood of Vol, Cult Below)
* Certain cities or settlements could have a lore, but this would be for really detailed knowledge on the area. So Sandpoint Lore would let you know quite a but about any facet of Sandpoint whereas Varisia Lore would only give you the biggest details (first established, when it got attacked by a dragon)
* 1 Lore skill for each organisation
* 1 Lore skill for each plane (which also includes the inhabitants of that plane)
* 1 Lore skill for each profession
* Animal Lore (natural animals)
* Magical Beasts Lore
* Dragon Lore
* Plant Lore
* Aberration Lore
* Undead Lore
So in the above there is no ghost lore or vampire lore. If someone said "I want to make a vampire hunter so I want Vampire Lore" then I would suggest they change it to Vampire Hunter Lore and let them recall knowledge on vampires, the tools of the trade and also famous vampire hunters. If they wanted Ghost Lore because they want to be a ghostbuster, I'd allow it (although broaden it to Spirit Lore,) and let them know they can use it for recalling knowledge about famous mediums and even to earn an income.
What do people think of the above? Too broad? Not broad enough? Am I missing any lores?
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You definitely also need Ancestry Lores, both because each Ancestry has a Feat that does that and because it's appropriate.
The game also assumes specific terrain based Lores like 'Forest' or 'Caverns', which seems reasonable.
You should probably note it as 'region' rather than 'country' for Lores, since I don't think Xendrik is strictly a country, and know that The Shadow Marches aren't one, but you should definitely be able to have either of those as a Lore.
For Eberron, 'Draconic Prophecy Lore' and 'Last War Lore' both seem like things that could exist (I guess 'Warfare Lore' which is a profession, might cover some of the latter, but it still seems distinct to me). House Lore for the Dragonmarked Houses also seems very relevant, though whether it'd be one Lore for all of them or one per House is a judgment call.
I'm going to allow swapping out ancestry lore (for most ancestries) to a specific country lore. If a player REALLY REALLY wanted "elf lore" I would ask them why, explain the limitations I'd put on it (similar to Sandpoint Lore vs Varisia Lore) and then let them take it. The biggest exceptions would be doppelganger lore (my name for Eberron changelings) and kalashtar lore
And yes Xen'drik and Shadow Marches would get it's own Lore. In the campaign guide I would actually list these out (I was summarizing for brevity).
Good point on environment lores! I'd overlooked those.
I'd have a lore for each dragonmarked house. I hadn't thought of a Last War lore skill. Great suggestion!
And Draconic Prophecy would definitely be it's own lore. Although I doubt I would suggest it to players (a but like Thassilonian Lore is a great one to have, but starting RotR with it at level 1 might not be something the campaign guide would suggest).
Ultimate Lore?
I'd settle for an entire chapter in DMG.
Or multiple tables. Or one big table.
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I feel like the more lore skills that are added the less likely they are to come up in a game. Its a minor issue I have with the way they are set up now with an infinite number of lore skills.
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I feel like the more lore skills that are added the less likely they are to come up in a game. Its a minor issue I have with the way they are set up now with an infinite number of lore skills.
I've said it before: A good GM will help highlight to players what lore skills are relevant in their campaign and offer them alternatives if the backgrounds don't sync up with that list.
I feel like the more lore skills that are added the less likely they are to come up in a game. Its a minor issue I have with the way they are set up now with an infinite number of lore skills.I've said it before: A good GM will help highlight to players what lore skills are relevant in their campaign and offer them alternatives if the backgrounds don't sync up with that list.
This is a must for APs in my view.
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This is a must for APs in my view.
Fortunately that's exactly what they've done for Age of Ashes and there is no reason for them to stop doing it.
Is it really the problem I perceive it might be?
Discuss.
I think it's going to be another area that has huge table variance. For some tables it's going to be a real headache and for others it will be a spur to creativity, I suspect.
For me, I very much like it. I want players to choose animal lore if they have a broad kind of veterinarian knowledge and I want them to choose dog lore if they are obsessed with canines and have no interest in anything else. I would leave such specificity to the player and then hope to reflect that in the game (both in DC setting but also in trying to provide scenarios where their 'special interest' can have some time in the spotlight).
I have a grand total of one PF2 character and I chose the made up Castellan Lore for him. I was glad the DM was willing to let me invent something that fits the character history/interests I envisage and didn't make me pick accounting, mercantile, guild or whatever lore I would try and shoehorn the concept into. I imagine from time to time I will know something about accounting or mercantile matters or how one might best structure a workforce in a pseudo-guild setting, etcetera. But it will all be as it applies to running a castle/keep.
Trying to make an exhaustive list seems unnecessarily restrictive to me - the downside of the "write your own lore category" approach being the reliance on DM adjudication of exactly what it covers.
It seems to me this fits in neatly with PF2's paradigm of more DM adjudication and interpretation than was expected in PF1.
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I have a grand total of one PF2 character and I chose the made up Castellan Lore for him.
I, for one, approve of Castellan as a Lore.
Given my pseudonym, there admittedly may be some bias. :)| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As complicated as it might be on paper, I think something like Shadowrun's skill web would be nice here.
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Still waiting for that Gladiator Lore or Espionage Lore to come up...
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Heres a question, if you take Lore: Things I do not know, does passing a knowledge check using that skill retroactively nullify that check, because if you pass the check to recall the information, it means you know it and hence it is impossible for that lore skill to apply?
Still waiting for that Gladiator Lore or Espionage Lore to come up...
Espionage Lore appears in the Lost Omens World Guide under the Lion Blade dedication feat.
Heres a question, if you take Lore: Things I do not know, does passing a knowledge check using that skill retroactively nullify that check, because if you pass the check to recall the information, it means you know it and hence it is impossible for that lore skill to apply?
Quiet, Bertrand.
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Still waiting for that Gladiator Lore or Espionage Lore to come up...
Espionage Lore would probably come up a lot in a converted War for the Crown game, or Hell's Rebels, or any other similar game. Gladiator Lore is a tad more niche, but Tymon exists just as one example, and it certainly makes for some very fun checks to earn income.
Don't forget to use the optional maiming rules from the Skulls and Shackles AP if anyone wants to use Gladiator lore to earn income as a gladiator. I would love to have some PCs who are missing limbs or an eye or whatever, because of their backstory or ongoing professional undertakings. <g>
Still waiting for that Gladiator Lore or Espionage Lore to come up...
I mean you can always use it to "earn income" with either, doing either gladiator battles in which you do not ever get injured or just freelance espionage.
You get 28 Lore Skills to Legendary as a Human Rogue (Maybe more but you can definetly get 28 there by using all 20 skill feats; all the general feats; Ancestry feats and the Pathfinder hopeful background). and if your building to just keep getting more and more skills you can be at least trained in every skill and 14 more lore skills (Boosting INT everytime you can and multiclassing 4 times (last time with ancestry) - Druid; Sorcerer (Occult bloddline to grab occult evolution for the extra skill); Cleric and Bard (Where you pick up bardic lore to cover everything else [You can put the 14 other lore skills into profession type stuff so you can still have a use for them]).
I think at that point you might have to worry about Lore subcategories overlapping.