Welcome to the Advanced Player’s Guide Playtest!

At first glance, both the Investigator and the Swashbuckler feel like they could have worked as Rogue rackets instead of separate classes. Looking forward to seeing how well they differentiate themselves in actual play.

At first glance, both the Investigator and the Swashbuckler feel like they could have worked as Rogue rackets instead of separate classes. Looking forward to seeing how well they differentiate themselves in actual play.

Investigator feels kind of like a rogue-ranger hybrid to me almost. On the Case feels a lot like Hunt Prey, albeit less immediately combat focused and minus the overtly wilderness flavor.

Some sort of hybrid feat that combines the two if you're a ranger/investigator or vice versa could be really cool.

What happened to Alahazra as iconic oracle?

For no reason, I feel compelled to mention that the newly ritual-ified Reincarnation may also be coming in this book. Just sayin'.

Woohoo for new classes!

orphicblue wrote:

What happened to Alahazra as iconic oracle?

My guess? She became a kalistocrat, retired to Druma and made lots of money.

How else you explain her final appearance being in Druma campaign setting book cover? :D

She and Damiel have gotten together and are now chatting with Alain and with some of the Advanced Class Guide iconics to recruit them into a guild of ex-iconics who will become villainous foils for those who remain or have recently become iconics.

They aren't getting very far yet because all of the other likely-to-be-repaced iconics are still optimistic that they will remain iconics.

Wow.

I was completely down for Oracle and Witch when the APG was announced but was kind of scratching my head wondering why Investigator & Swashbuckler made the cut.

Not anymore.

These classes look AMAZING and really show off PF2's design changes over PF1. Investigator feels much more distinct and unique. I totally disagree that Rogue rackets could have handled things as well as an independent class. Swashbuckler looks incredible! I'm really liking the way curses are a price paid for power expended vs. PF1's "suck is always on" mode. I was also thrilled to see that the Witch can handle arcane, primal, or occult depending on the type of witch you want to build. Not crazy about the familiar requirement but I knew that wasn't going anywhere.

Obviously, I've only had time to do a cursory read, but dang these look really promising!

orphicblue wrote:

What happened to Alahazra as iconic oracle?

For no reason, I feel compelled to mention that the newly ritual-ified Reincarnation may also be coming in this book. Just sayin'.

Mind. Blown.

<3 y'all.

Hmm wrote:

Interesting. So curses are only tied to specific mysteries? I loved being able to mix and match my curses in PF1. It made for greater variety!

Paradoxically, I suspect this change will lead to more variety in curses at the table. In my experience, players would often pick the easiest curse to work around, or the curse that would have the least impact on their character. By tying a curse to a mystery, Paizo is forcing players to take the good with the bad at character creation, as well as letting the flavor of the curse tie into the associated mystery.

Additionally, and this is just my observation, by moving away from design elements like "lame" and "clouded vision" as curses, the game can steer clear of those aspects of ableism. I don't have an opinion on that, but perhaps others do.

Maybe that is how people played at your table, but I always felt that picking the appropriate curse was an integral aspect of developing the character's backstory.

Not going to lie, I'm upset that Alahazra was replaced. Seeing her art was literally the reason I first got into Pathfinder.

Interesting

You don’t gain more

10th-level spells as you level up, unlike other spell slots,
and you can’t use 10th-level slots with abilities that give
you more spell slots or that let you cast spells without
expending spell slots.

I just double-checked Archive of Nethys and none of the other 10th level spell class features have wording like that.

I think we know what's showing up in Errata 2 now.

She and Damiel have gotten together and are now chatting with Alain and with some of the Advanced Class Guide iconics to recruit them into a guild of ex-iconics who will become villainous foils for those who remain or have recently become iconics.

We've actually considered doing something like this as a comic book. At one point we had a Damiel vs. Fumbus alchemist-fight one-shot in the works. Might still do it one day.

Don't know where to put this...

In the oracle section under Divine Spellcasting: "Each day, you can cast up to three 1st-level spells."

The table to the left says you only have 2 1st level spell slots.

Interesting

Oracular Clarity Page 17 wrote:

You don’t gain more

10th-level spells as you level up, unlike other spell slots,
and you can’t use 10th-level slots with abilities that give
you more spell slots or that let you cast spells without
expending spell slots.

I just double-checked Archive of Nethys and none of the other 10th level spell class features have wording like that.

I think we know what's showing up in Errata 2 now.

Either AoN is wrong, or check again. The CRB has identical language for the Bard and Sorcerer.

First impression is that Alahazra getting replaced is a mechanical thing. Curses work radically differently in PF2 in such a way that make Alahazra's Curse of Blindness that's core to her story not really make sense anymore.

With all of its scene-related abilities and abilities to generate ad hoc items in a limited capacity, the Investigator feels like they're playing Dresden Files RPG.

I think this is fundamentally a good thing as it really brings set pieces to life. Though GMs who aren't expecting are probably have to do a lot of improvise.

With all of its scene-related abilities and abilities to generate ad hoc items in a limited capacity, the Investigator feels like they're playing Dresden Files RPG.

I think this is fundamentally a good thing as it really brings set pieces to life. Though GMs who aren't expecting are probably have to do a lot of improvise.

I am really wanting to play an Investigator myself. :D

I'm really loving the look of these classes. I had no interest in the Investigator but now I have an overwhelming desire to play batman.

I like the Witch but I was hoping more for cantrip hexes rather than focus spells. I think a nice compromise might be if the Witch had the same free refocus ability of the Sorcerer. Something like the familiar's status as a conduit of magic allows a Witch to recharge their focus pool without effort.

My initial impression od the classes is pretty good, they all have a lot of great flavor and look fun to play. I cant help but be excited that the battle oracle will let me play a madoka magica style "magical girl" character, with the curse representing soul gem taint and such. Swashbuckler looks super fun, and thats coming from a guy who normally doesn't like martials. Investigator looks neat, I think I might play it rhe next time I want to roll a more combat focused "alchemist", perhaps even multiclassing into alchemist to have a large stockpile of weaker elixirs. Witch looks super fun, I'm happy to see a prepared caster that can cast occult spells, bur I really dig that witches can (hypothetically, I dont think you have any divine options, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen) draw power from any spellcasting tradition.

I'm not liking that neither of the witch's natural weapons are finesse though, but the nails feat gives me an idea on how I could homebrew up something like spellstrike

I do wish there were still tounges curse, but it otherwise looks promising.

Gonna test out Oracle Friday :D

Are they intentionally holding back on a good chunk of the class feats coming with these four in the APG, or is this as filled out as they will ever get? I haven't done the math, but with the bulk of levels only having two or three feats, it feels very much less than CRB classes.

I'm really impressed with the Swashbuckler, Oracle and Witch.

Investigator feels like a missed opportunity to leverage PF2's action system to let it do weird things in combat though. Not a huge fan of, as written, the class basically boiling down to Study > Strike with SA dice. It makes it feel less like its own thing and more like a budget rogue.

Are they intentionally holding back on a good chunk of the class feats coming with these four in the APG, or is this as filled out as they will ever get? I haven't done the math, but with the bulk of levels only having two or three feats, it feels very much less than CRB classes.

Oracle having only three Mysteries gives me a similar vibe.

Can this be stickied please?

Are they intentionally holding back on a good chunk of the class feats coming with these four in the APG, or is this as filled out as they will ever get? I haven't done the math, but with the bulk of levels only having two or three feats, it feels very much less than CRB classes.

We will definitely be including more options, just like with the Core Rulebook, but first we need to make sure the overall class designs work well and are fun for you to play!

First impression is that Alahazra getting replaced is a mechanical thing. Curses work radically differently in PF2 in such a way that make Alahazra's Curse of Blindness that's core to her story not really make sense anymore.

Well, she does have the Flame mystery, and the curse for that mystery does impair your character's vision quite a bit, similarly to how the blindness curse works in 1e.

Sporkedup wrote:

Are they intentionally holding back on a good chunk of the class feats coming with these four in the APG, or is this as filled out as they will ever get? I haven't done the math, but with the bulk of levels only having two or three feats, it feels very much less than CRB classes.

We will definitely be including more options, just like with the Core Rulebook, but first we need to make sure the overall class designs work well and are fun for you to play!

I figured! Well, I hoped. Thanks!

Quick question with Oracular Providence feat, where Oracular Clarity? I see Oracular Warning and nothing else.

My "Yay a tengu iconic!" squee got overwritten with a "No! Alahazra is gone!"

Alahazra had one of my favorite designs with that neat head piece and white robe and long braided hair. Like an Egyptian white mage.

Edit: A tengu swashbuckler was also a missed opportunity.

Alahazra, a black blind woman being replaced by a birdperson is not the best choice for a number of reasons and I hope Paizo has a way of addressing what this does and means for real world representation.

I know Paizo is always trying its best to do right when it comes to representation for the audience.

I think it's important that we also call it out when the mark gets missed.

Tengu iconic is a fun premise, but I don't think that fantasy ancestries do as much real-world good as having a POC with a disability front and center in your product.

However I will say: "Just One More Thing" is the greatest ability you could give an investigator class ever.

The investigator has a nice chassis, but it has some MAD issues.

In theory they're supposed to have high Int, but the Study Suspect action and their perceptive nature in general really pushes them to have a high Wis. Their light armor makes them want to push Dex, which they can also use for attack rolls. Their base HP is on the lower side, encouraging some investment in Con. And you probably want to try and sneak some Str in if you can to deal more damage. They have some abilities that suggest you could make an investigator with good Cha, but the pressures to push other ability scores really make that seem hard to do. Further, of the three methodologies, only one strongly benefits from increasing Int.

I think a simple solution would be to have all investigators use Int for Perception instead of Wis. This reduces the pressure to increase Wis, thus freeing up more options for ability score investment and making Int actually feel like their key stat.

I really love this! These are 4 of my favorite classes! They look fantastic. Thanks.

orphicblue wrote:

What happened to Alahazra as iconic oracle?

For no reason, I feel compelled to mention that the newly ritual-ified Reincarnation may also be coming in this book. Just sayin'.

I hope the “for no reason” was literal and not “we killed the beloved blind black woman Iconic and ‘fixed’ her by turning her into something else.”

David knott 242 wrote:

She and Damiel have gotten together and are now chatting with Alain and with some of the Advanced Class Guide iconics to recruit them into a guild of ex-iconics who will become villainous foils for those who remain or have recently become iconics.

We've actually considered doing something like this as a comic book. At one point we had a Damiel vs. Fumbus alchemist-fight one-shot in the works. Might still do it one day.

That reminds me of the Youtube series Clinton Boomer used to make with some of his college(?) friends where they did some odd takes on the D&D iconics. Including Clinton as Hennet, sorcerer with a ridiculous number of belts.

We have Oracle now!!!!! <3

Oooh, gimmie that witch class! Surprised the inquisitor didn't make it in.

Folks, just to speak on the topic of the Tengu Oracle...

When looking at the iconics for Pathfinder 2nd Edition, we are always on the look out for ways to offer up a different look and feel for these vital characters. In the past, they have been primarily human, so with the new edition we have decided to mix it up a bit, adding characters that represent different ancestries in the game. Our new tengu character is just one example of where we decided to go in a different direction, but you will still find Alahazra in our game as a sample Oracle.

Good to know Alahazra is alive and not reincarnated with a new pair of bird legs. And bird arms. And bird everything else.

I hope she'll show up as a Sample Build Oracle, maybe with whichever one really emphasizes Blindness (aside from Flames, not sure that would work).

I do welcome more nonhumans!

Alahazra, a black blind woman being replaced by a birdperson is not the best choice for a number of reasons and I hope Paizo has a way of addressing what this does and means for real world representation.

I know Paizo is always trying its best to do right when it comes to representation for the audience.

I think it's important that we also call it out when the mark gets missed.

Tengu iconic is a fun premise, but I don't think that fantasy ancestries do as much real-world good as having a POC with a disability front and center in your product.

Oooo boy. She's not blind. Nothing mechanically or lore wise insinuates she's blind. Your right about the rest of it but she's never been presented as blind

Birdie!!!!

Sad to see there's no Multiclass Dedications along with the classes. Would've loved to multiclass into one of them (investigator) in an ongoing game to test it that way.

Sad to see there's no Multiclass Dedications along with the classes. Would've loved to multiclass into one of them (investigator) in an ongoing game to test it that way.

I'm guessing they wanna make sure the class itself is good to go before allowing multi-classing to be tested out. Maybe they'll allow that in another phase of the playtest.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Alahazra, a black blind woman being replaced by a birdperson is not the best choice for a number of reasons and I hope Paizo has a way of addressing what this does and means for real world representation.

I know Paizo is always trying its best to do right when it comes to representation for the audience.

I think it's important that we also call it out when the mark gets missed.

Tengu iconic is a fun premise, but I don't think that fantasy ancestries do as much real-world good as having a POC with a disability front and center in your product.

Oooo boy. She's not blind. Nothing mechanically or lore wise insinuates she's blind. Your right about the rest of it but she's never been presented as blind

She may not be blind, but she's pretty close.

Weaknesses: oracle's curse (clouded vision)

falco1029 wrote:

Sad to see there's no Multiclass Dedications along with the classes. Would've loved to multiclass into one of them (investigator) in an ongoing game to test it that way.

I'm guessing they wanna make sure the class itself is good to go before allowing multi-classing to be tested out. Maybe they'll allow that in another phase of the playtest.

Yeah, I understand, but I'm still sad about it :P

How come Alahazra is the only iconic who got replaced for this book? I miss her already :(

Hmm wrote:

Interesting. So curses are only tied to specific mysteries? I loved being able to mix and match my curses in PF1. It made for greater variety!

Paradoxically, I suspect this change will lead to more variety in curses at the table. In my experience, players would often pick the easiest curse to work around, or the curse that would have the least impact on their character. By tying a curse to a mystery, Paizo is forcing players to take the good with the bad at character creation, as well as letting the flavor of the curse tie into the associated mystery.

Additionally, and this is just my observation, by moving away from design elements like "lame" and "clouded vision" as curses, the game can steer clear of those aspects of ableism. I don't have an opinion on that, but perhaps others do.

Really? I picked the weirdest ones. Making Lyric the Singing Paladin deaf was central to her character. I chose different curses every time, trying to find the ones with the MOST impact. Now these curses are cool, but I don't get to mix and match to create something new.

I'm also trying to figure out what to do for my goblin character... I so wanted a LORE or Ancestor Oracle for this. Flame is too stereotypic for a goblin, and battle seems to combat-oriented. Sigh. I may have to go with Life, but it doesn't really fit either.

Hmm

Certainly the first thing that comes to mind is; Why the witch has no access to Divine tradition)
I mean, your Patron can be an Angel or a Devil that we already saw in the sorcerer who grant Divine magic.

Quick witch impressions/comments:

Prehensile hair being permanent is A+, but it uses dex/str for attack. Not sure how much that matters.

Nails being specifically rune etchable is neat, but it's kind of weird. Really necessary if handwraps exist?

Focus points *do not* deliver on all-day hex gameplay from PF1, especially if refocus requires a specific activity.

There needs to be witch-specific cantrips, with or without per day target restrictions. Evil-eye should ideally be like this.

No divine list access is a bit strange. Primal is very fitting for Ice Witches.

Potion brewing looks pretty hype. I'd like to see how it plays out.

The investigator has a nice chassis, but it has some MAD issues.

In theory they're supposed to have high Int, but the Study Suspect action and their perceptive nature in general really pushes them to have a high Wis. Their light armor makes them want to push Dex, which they can also use for attack rolls. Their base HP is on the lower side, encouraging some investment in Con. And you probably want to try and sneak some Str in if you can to deal more damage. They have some abilities that suggest you could make an investigator with good Cha, but the pressures to push other ability scores really make that seem hard to do. Further, of the three methodologies, only one strongly benefits from increasing Int.

I think a simple solution would be to have all investigators use Int for Perception instead of Wis. This reduces the pressure to increase Wis, thus freeing up more options for ability score investment and making Int actually feel like their key stat.

The 1E investigator did use Int to Perception, so it would not surprise me to see a feat to make that happen in the final version.

Certainly the first thing that comes to mind is; Why the witch has no access to Divine tradition)

I mean, your Patron can be an Angel or a Devil that we already saw in the sorcerer who grant Divine magic.

I think there will eventually be divine witches, maybe not in the APG but at least eventually, there are reasons for them not to be at least not as 'core'.

1. This set up has 3 spellcasting classes per tradition (not that it matters but if parity is a goal it does keep it)

2. The divine list has a lot of spells that poinf directly towards a diety, lke divine lance and all the ones that reference a divine weapon, which makes the whole mystery patron thing very complicated (with sorcerers and oracles its easy enough to say its whatever diety you follow but with witches some external force is definetly giving powers and that might be Nethys even if you follow Desna, so who's alignment/weapon/etc do you use)

3. Thematically, some external source gave me divine powers is very much an error thst has options, e.g. Cleric.

And most importantly in my mind

4. Witches kind of thematically fit the same role as Warlocks do in other games, making deals with unknown powers. The phrasing in the patron text even makes it semi clear that the divine beings at play granting these powers are trying to stay incognito and i feel that, at least storywise, divine magic is an awful lot easier to track back to the being that granted it. That is to say, most things that are divine that could make a cleric could make a witch. And if they don't need to hide who they are they'd just make a cleric who HAS to do what they say, rather than a witch that they're hopibg does what they want.

Either way, I'm glad we got our prepared any class.