So I just recently had a player who is working on a build for my upcoming Curse game (we just finished Rise last Friday). I am soooo proud of him in that he is going through and coming up with a complete build and thinking about things he wants to do, and to his huge credit when he runs into an ambiguous situation he researches it to see if there is an answer and bring it up to me for ruling if it is still ambiguous.
In this case, he is looking at making a skald that uses a reach weapon and trying to see if he could use a grease spell under his opponent to 'lock' them down (thinking that they couldn't 5 ft step). He wanted to check how this work and found the following thread: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t4uk?FAQ-Can-you-5-step-out-of-Grease
I read through the full thread and it got soooo close to how things actually worked but missed the mark (the rules actually work really well in this case and can cover most of the corner cases that came up in that thread). Rather than thread-necro, I figured I would post a new thread with my understanding of how this works. So it would be there for others in the future or to hear from others who might disagree.
5-Foot Step:
Take a 5-foot step:
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
The full text is in the spoiler, but the relevant part is: You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step
I bolded the words in that description that have definitions. (Hampered is the one missed in that discussion.)
Hampered
Hampered Movement:
Hampered Movement
Difficult terrain, obstacles, and poor visibility can hamper movement (see Table: Hampered Movement for details). When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.
If more than one hampering condition applies, multiply all additional costs that apply. This is a specific exception to the normal rule for doubling.
In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don’t have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it’s not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally. (You can’t take advantage of this rule to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited to you.)
You can’t run or charge through any square that would hamper your movement.
Table: Hampered Movement
Condition Additional Movement Cost
Difficult Terrain 2
Obstacle* 2
Poor Visibility 2
Impassable —
*May require a skill check
The operative part here is: When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.
This is where people got confused and wanted to say anything that slowed movement is difficult terrain and therefor not available for a 5 ft step. Difficult Terrain causes hampered movement but all hampered movement is not difficult terrain.
Likewise, darkness is called out in the 5-ft step description. That is because darkness (lighting condition) is a condition of poor visibility and therefore has hampered movement. But not all situations that have poor visibility are caused by darkness.
This means that you have a pretty simple flow chart you can follow to see if someone can 5-ft step.
1) Do they have a movement speed of 10 or higher? If not, they can't 5 ft step.
2) Is the square they are moving into affected by hampered movement? If no, you are golden. If yes, continue.
2a) Is the hampered movement caused by difficult terrain? If not, proceed to 2b. If yes, no 5-ft step.
2b) Is the hampered movement caused by darkness? If not, then you are good. If yes, no 5-ft step.
So then let's look at some use cases before we move on to grease.
The whole map is dim light conditions (moon light), can I 5-foot step? It is a condition of poor visibility, so there would be hampered movement, but it is not darkness (a specific light condition). Yes, you can 5-foot step.
The whole map is in darkness, but my character has dark vision, can I 5-foot step? Is your movement hampered? No, darkvision alleviates the hampering affect, even though there is darkness. So yes, you can 5 ft step.
I am on a hill and my GM has defined all squares as difficult terrain, but I want to go down hill which has to be easier, can I five foot step? Difficult Terrain causes hampered movement and it is from difficult terrain, so no.
My GM made a strange rule in that same situation that moving up hill is 2x movement but moving down hill is not, but it is all still classified as difficult terrain? Moving down hill is not hampered, even though it is difficult terrain (in this particular situation), so yes you can 5-foot step.
So... let's apply this to the grease spell. Can we 5-foot step in grease? Can we 5-foot step out of grease?
Grease Spell
Grease:
A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.
The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and combat maneuver checks made to escape a grapple, and to their CMD to avoid being grappled.
So... using our flow chart, is movement hampered? No, hampered movement has that (usually) x2 modifier on movement into a square. Grease does not do that. It only says you can't move unless you make an acrobatics check. If you do make that check your Speed is halved (not the same as a square having a modifier).
As long as you make the acrobatics check and the halving of your speed doesn't make your speed fall below 10 ft, then you can 5-foot step.
You can 5-foot step from a greased square to a greased square. You can 5-foot step from a grease square to a non-greased square. Grease doesn't prevent a 5-foot step in anyway (unless it pulls your speed down low enough when you make the acrobatics check).
The next big point of contention was if a creature that is leaving a greased square to 5-foot step into a non-greased square would need to make an acrobatics check or not. This is specifically looking at this part of the spell: "A creature can walk within or through the area of grease"
The discussion focused on the words "within and through" with people going back and forth. A common point was that in movement, the conditions of the square only apply when you move into the square... and while this is true (you can 5-ft step out of a difficult terrain square into one that is not hampered, example), it isn't relevant here. Why? Because of the next part of that sentence: "the area of grease." That is to say the are of the spell. The are of a spell does not follow the movement rules, it follows the magic rules.
"The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection."
All this is to say the boundary for the area of the spell is the edges of a square not the square itself. If you pass through that edge you are passing through the area of the spell.
In the case of 5-foot step from a greased square to a non-greased square, you are passing through the boundary of the spell area, so yes, you need to make the acrobatics check prior to moving. If successful, you speed is halved and you can then move about as normal. If you fail, no movement is allowed and you must make a reflex save or go prone.
So I was excited when the next AP was announced to be set in Isger. I have always wanted to play a war veteran and the Goblinblood Wars are one of the few that have happened in fairly recent memory (there is a serious lack of wars going on in this world).
Looking at the history, it looks like the goblin tribes of the nearby forest were lead by hobgoblins against the region in a very bloody war known for all the deaths that occurred on both sides. Hell Knights, Eagle Knights, and Mercenaries (as well as what is left of Isgers forces) all banded together to put down the threat (and burned much of the forest).
This happened just 22 years ago, the orphans created in this war are young adults. War veterans are still around. There was not a Marshall plan like in Europe to rebuild the area after the war... it was devastated and the powers that be, Cheliax and Druma, just care about keeping the profitable trade route open and protected... not the rest of the country. This event would shape the lives of everyone living in the area. Most people would have known people or had relatives killed in the war by the goblin hordes.
But... this is kicking off PF2, goblins are now a playable race and presumably more accepted into society. The Free RPG Day adventure this year was We Be Heroes and tells the story of a goblin tribe that was nearly wiped out in the Goblinblood war but who now live in southern Fangwood (so not really near the area anymore) helping save a group of Lastwall Knights and leading them all the way down to Absalom. Those heroics are what is helping get them accepted as a race by the rest of society... but in Isger? I don't know how much that would matter, the wounds would still be very raw.
Now, I don't want to argue about if it is a good idea for Goblins to be a playable and accepted race in Pathfinder now... they are. What I am really interested in is all the RP opportunities that this now presents.
I just downloaded and started reading the Player's Guide to the Age of Ashes... the very first paragraph seems to introduce the start of the campaign as a goblin looking for help when it sees what it thinks is a Hell Knight castle coming back into life and what it could mean for his goblin tribe. This could get REAL interesting... because I think the default of many of the residents and even PCs from the area might be to not feel to bad for those goblins.
So... How do you intend to bring all this into your game? Will you as a GM play this kind of social conflict up or will you just accept the new status quo that goblins are good guys and the world is cool with that?
I am fairly open to which game, but do have a fondness for Pathfinder and Call of Cthulhu.
If you are interested in my style of playing/running a game you can check out the podcast I co-hosted, the Gamers' Guide to Pathfinder at www.35privatesanctuary.com.
Sean & Barry discuss adding Naval Combat to your game, as it is presented in the Skull & Shackles Player's Guide.
We would love to hear what you think! Feel free to comment here or come and join the discussion on the message boards at 3.5 Private Sanctuary. Register and become a part of the discussion.
While your there check out some of our other episodes:
So my group has recently gone through a fair number of changes. One of them is that we weren't able to continue meeting on our regular day and often people knew they wouldn't be able to make it each week. As a result we have a much smaller group and have been trying to keep things down to one-shots.
Since we are doing one-shots anyway, the suggestion has come up for us to become a society legal game (that and we made a few optimized but RAW characters that were able to 2 man adventures 4 levels higher than them... so some power control as well).
As I am now reading through the society rules and Traits, I came across:
Trait: Aid Allies:
When using the aid another action, you give
your ally a +3 bonus instead of a +2 bonus
This got me thinking about interactions with Aid Another, the Order of the Dragon Cavalier, the feat: Swift Aid, and maybe even the cloistered cleric ability to aid a group instead of an individual.
Rules as Intended seems to be that the Trait is giving an additional +1 to Aid another checks. But that isn't what it is says... so how it interacts with Swift Aid is not clear. I think by RAW they don't interact and you would simply have a choice of either giving +1 as a swift action or +3 as a standard action.
The relevant Order of the Dragon Ability:
Aid Allies:
At 2nd level, whenever an order of the dragon cavalier uses the aid another action to assist one of his allies, the ally receives a +3 bonus to his armor class, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. At 8th level, and every six levels thereafter, this bonus increases by an additional +1.
The intent again seems to be that Aid Another gives additional scaling bonuses as the cavalier levels up. RaW on this one is a bit trickier though.
Unlike the Aid Allies trait, this ability doesn't say that it replaces the normal bonus from Aid Another (though, I think that is the intent). That being the case would a second level Cavalier (Order of the Dragon), who had the Aid Allies Trait and took a standard action to Aid Another (AC) be able to give +3 to AC and +3 to hit? If he had the Swift Aid feat would he be giving +1 to AC and +3 hit as a swift action? RaW seems to say so... though again it isn't the intent, I don't think.
You could just expand the same logic out to the cloistered clerics ability... you see where this is going at this point.
So, I guess my question is how this is officially handled in Pathfinder Society play. In my home game, I could rule it a variety of different ways based on perceived intent... but we can't do that with Society play. So how would other GM's (judges?) handle this?
Sean and Barry continue the class discussion series with an in-depth discussion of the Alchemist class from the APG.
We would love to hear what you think! Feel free to comment here or come and join the discussion on the message boards at 3.5 Private Sanctuary. Register and become a part of the discussion.
While your there check out some of our other episodes:
The round table discussion finally continues when Sean & Barry are joined by Trent to discuss the implications of player death… er… character death on your game, players and assorted other things.
We would love to hear what you think! Feel free to comment here or come and join the discussion on the message boards at 3.5 Private Sanctuary. Register and become a part of the discussion.
While you're there check out some of our other episodes:
Sean and Barry discuss the alternate magic system, Words of Power, presented in Ultimate Magic.
We would love to hear what you think! Feel free to comment here or come and join the discussion on the message boards at 3.5 Private Sanctuary. Register and become a part of the discussion.
While your there check out some of our other episodes:
Sean and Barry discuss the common types of problem players that appear at gaming tables and how to deal with them.
We would love to hear what you think! Feel free to comment here or come and join the discussion on the message boards at 3.5 Private Sanctuary. Register and become a part of the discussion.
While your there check out some of our other episodes:
The Gamers' Guide to Skinning has been dropped into the Gamers' Guide to Pathfinder feed.
You can find us at www.35privatesanctuary.com or iTunes or Zune.
A discussion of the DM and Player tool known as skinning, a technique for allowing you to run or play the thing you want to with out changing the rules.
Drop by our boards and let us know what you think of the new intro music!
A friend and I have started up a new podcast that is just two guys look at the rules of Pathfinder. If this is something you might be interested in check us out!
Our RSS feed is:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/Thegamersguidetopathfinder
I have submitted our podcast to iTunes and it is currently under review and you should be able to subscribe through iTunes soon.
Currently I have posted our first episode:
The Gamers' Guide to Firearms - Part I
I expect I should have 2 more episodes (The Gamers' Guide to Firearms - Part II and The Gamers Guide to Dipping) posted with in the next day or so.
I have another episode halfway edited and a fifth waiting for editing to start.
Each episode is a little over an hour and we are shooting for about 1 hour as our episode length.
I see that City of Seven Spears has now shipped but I have yet to receive Racing to Ruin.
Can I get some help on this?
As a side note I seem to have a lot of issues getting shipments from you guys since I moved to Ocean Shores, WA. Is there something I can do to help alleviate the ongoing issue?
My Pathfinder #33 has not shown up yet. If I am understanding correctly it should have been here between 5/24 and 5/28... do I need to be more patient or is there an issue?
I got my notification today that the first part of this AP will be billing/shipping soon. Exciting!
This got me thinking about the Player's guide. It is my understanding that the player's guide will no longer be incorporated into the chronicles products, but will be a stand alone product. Is this correct?
Will subscribers to the AP be getting a free copy of this? I am sure it will be a free download for all, but it would be great to have a hardcopy.
I play in a group that uses all of the 3.5 material available (including Dragon Mags). As a result switching over to Pathfinder would need to be pretty seamless with all of these sources for it to be a very viable choice for us.
So, how compatable would you say the new rules are with ALL the material that is out there for 3.5 (at least all the WotC licensed stuff)? I know it was stated design goal, but I get the feeling that the compatability is more on the lines of picking up an AP and still using 3.5 stuff for all the PCs.
Has anyone already completed a timeline of all the events (background stuff mostly) that take place in this AP? I am sure something like that is out there but am unable to find it.
Could someone who has the feat that heals you a number of HP each time you refresh your maneuvers just sit there doing so (perhaps via adaptive style) until they are at full hp?
This seems to be against the intent of the abilities, but I haven't seen something telling me if they work that way.
I am running RoTRL and have just decided to do away with exp points and level up when it seems appropriate.
Does anyone know of a location of detailed suggestions for when to 'level up'?
I figured I would give this one it's own thread so as to not threadjack others.
I used this method when I ran SCAP (my first real time running a campaign as a DM) and it worked fantastically. I figured that this time I would use XP... and I am finding it is coming out to be almost the identical point I would have picked so far.
Anyway, I figured I would give this a stab for you since it will make my life of judging if they need a side trek easier as well.
Level 2 - Before Heading into the Catacombs of Wrath
Level 3 - Just before Thistletop
Level 4 - End of Burnt Offerings
Level 5 - Just before Misgivings
Level 6 - End of Misgivings
Level 7 - End of Skinsaw Murders
Level 8 - After Graul Farmstead
Level 9 - After retaking the Fort
(Maybe after the damn?)
Level 10 - End of Hook Mountain Massacre
Level 11 - Reaching Jorgenfist
(by XP I am guessing they would be part way through Jorgenfist, but I like the cleaner cut off point when using this method)
Level 12 - End of Fortress of the Stone Giants
Level 13 - Entering the Runeforge
(Like above, they would likely level within the runforge, but I like the cleaner line; that and if you add in a lot of RP like I do then there is a bigger lag caused by the time all that takes)
Level 14 - End of Sins of the Saviors
Level 15 - Entering the Pinnacle of Avarice
Level 16 - Beginning fight with Karzoug
Anyway... that is my suggestion roughly. I can only confirm the first three right now (my party is in Thistletop) as I didn't actually do any of the math to see where things happen, but looked for good story points.
I have been noticing a trend of more and more posts in the Adventure Paths just assuming that people are using the Pathfinder RPG Beta rules. I have seen this in both initial posts asking for clarification and in responses to other peoples rules questions. (note: there are plenty of people specifying 3.5 or PRPG in their posts as well, but more and more are not doing so).
My question is what you all feel the correct "default" assumption should be for someone reading a post regarding rules. Should we make the reasonable assumption that this is the Pathfinder board and so it is the Pathfinder rule set that should be assumed or should we make the equally reasonable assumption that the Pathfinder Adventure Paths in question were written with the 3.5 OGL ruleset and so that should be the default assumption?
To continue that train of thought, does your answer change for the next AP that will be written using the PRPG rules? Will it make a difference that the finalized version will be released at that point? Does your assumption change with that release retroactively (i.e. would responses in the RotRL forum default to PRPG if they were not already)?
I just finished reading Howl of the Carion King today (started with the PDF and finished with the print version that arrived), and all I have to say is WOW! This is a phenominal adventure.
The only thing I didn't like is that I just started Rise of the Runelords at my last session so it will be a while before I can run this.
I just finished playing through, as a character, Hangman's Noose.
It was fantastic... and yet... I will never be clean again... dear god, I don't think I can drink enough to forget what happened to us in that certain room upstairs... just... unclean...
Well, it looks like I am all set to wrap up my SCAP camapaign next session.
I have decided that I am going to wrap up after the desctruction of the Tree of Shackled Souls. The players are currently about 1/2 way through the adventure now, I think we can wrap it up by the end of next session.
Now the big question is should I run Age of Worms, Savage Tide, Rise of the Runelords or Curse of the Crimson Throne next?!? (I think either AoW or RotRL... I am liking Golarion a lot but Greyhawk is sooo classic D&D)
So I just finished reading through all of the latest Second Darkness kickoff and was very happy with the adventure and settings. I was, however, underwhelmed by the set piece adventure that was included. To boil it down it was a location not an adventure and had a few hooks that would give you a reason to head in and start fighting. I guess I was just disappointed to see a pure dungeon crawl included.
That said, I think the idea has a LOT of potential. It would have to be played a bit differently though and the hooks used would need to be different.
First I would suggest the hooks would not be pointing to the identity of the pauper but instead would simply have him being an issue and the PCs having a reason to clean up that neighborhood.
A) (Good) The PC cleric is assigned to the mission himself. No illegal activities are seen to take place in the mission but the PC would get a good idea of things going on in the neighborhood. The PCs would then try and stop some of this activity with some success (set up a few "rescue the accosted person" and maybe a situation in which the PCs send a false shipment through the area to pull out the bandits and make an ambush for them style adventures). This brings them to the attention of the gang who starts attacking them directly (just never in the church which both the PCs and the gang are likely using as something of a base). Through clues from ambushes laid by either side for the other and any other methods that the PCs might use, they track their quary back to the church. At this point the drunkeness of the resident priest and the "blind eye" attitude of the other can be used to make it look like they might be complicit or even in charge of the whole thing (likely a ruse orchestrated by the pauper).
B) (Greedy) similar to the above, but the party is being paid by a rival gang to take over the area. The PCs then come in and have to find out who the thieves are with similar tactics as above. Another option here would be if you have a rogue PC wanting to start up his very own little thieves guild. He starts to do so and it turns into a turf war with this gang.
Anyway... just some ideas off the top of my head how this could have been a better adventure, rather than just the location that it was. I truly hope the future set-piece stuff doesn't follow this precedent. I was excited about the additional adventure that would also work well in the adventure itself, but was just disappointed with the delivery of this one compared to the quality that Paizo normally gives out.
I am not wanting any action on this at all, but I did want to give some feedback.
I just received Pathfinder 12, Pathfinder 13, and Pathfinder Companion: Second Darkness (hooray!). However all three were shipped in the same size (and therefor cost I am sure) container as a single Pathfinder typically ships in. Unfortunately it was a bit too tight for the journey and now the corners of both the Companion and 13 are fairly bent up.
Now, they are not unusable in any way, it is just a little disappointing when these are books I really enjoy to seem them a little beat up when I get them.
I know that it will cost me more, but in the future if shipments of that many books at once could be sent in a slightly larger container, I would appreciate it.
Once again, no action or remedy is being sought here, I am just looking to provide feedback.
I am wondering if I have been making a mistake in running things. For those creatures that do not list treasure in the HC, but instead just list a pg # in the MM, should I be rolling and including random treasure or is the total treasure in the adventure complete for all the challenges found in the adventure?
I say this only half jokingly... but can YOUR game survive the shear volume of Monty Python derived jokes that are sure to rain down upon your game and keep it from staying on track?
With the announcement that Paizo will not be publishing an adventure path in the foreseeable future for 4E I have taken to looking closer at Necromancer Games products. The official Paizo line is that they will still be involved in putting out 4E material as they are partnered with Necromancer Games and they are doing 4E material.
So after perusing the list of products that have been produced I realized that I had already bought several of the products (albeit pre-3.5 stuff) and so could look to them for a quality comparison.
Now, I don't really care all that much about the art and paper stock and such (though it is nice in the Paizo stuff, it is not what brings me back), so I don't really care about that. However, I found the necromancer material that I have just isn't something I would be interested in adding to my game.
Before anyone gets too insulted by that let me explain. Necromancer is said to have be third edition material with a first edition feel, and I think in this they are tremendously successful. The problem for me is that I don't like the first edition feel. Hopefully that can be perceived as just a taste difference and not an attack. Specifically I mean that I do not enjoy dungeon crawls and want as much chance for RP as possible. In fact my only complaint with the Adventure Paths has been that I feel they are too dungeon heavy, but as they are so ripe for RP I still love them (and I do love the combat too... just in small doses).
Anyway, my question is if the later Necromancer Games products went any more towards the roleplaying aspect of the game and away from the dungeon crawl focus? If so, can someone give me an example of a product they feel fits that criteria so I can pick it up and check it out.
Once again, I am not trying to attack, Necromancer has successfully hit the target they are shooting for in my opinion and that is a really great thing that most companies struggle with, so they should be congratulated. I am just looking for a different target in my adventures and want to know if I choose to switch to 4E will I need to abandone Paizo altogether or if I will be able to get the same type of great adventures from Necromancer games that are 4E products?
I am starting as a player in a game that will be starting up soon and will be playing a bard for the first time in 3.x. So far, so good. However, I like to have some good art for my character and typically I have found that Paizo products have yet to fail me in some good art somewhere for a character idea.
But I am having a hard time finding a non-effete looking male bard.
I have recently been reading through my collection of Dungeon magazines again and came across an interview of Monte Cook in the January 2003 (155) issue of Polyhedron (perhaps asked by Erik Mona... not sure).
Polyhedron: "Having gone through that entire process, what words of advice do you have to the people who will be designing Fourth Edition some time down the line?"
Monte Cook: "The big huge things that we learned was that D&D players want a really good game and are willing to change and accept change more than we even thought. If there are things I could go back and redo in Third Edition a lot of them probably are the way they are because we were afraid to make too big a change. We called them "sacred cows," things that made D&D D&D and we couldn't change them. I think that Fourth Edition can probably take that idea and go even further with it.
"The differences between First Edition and Second Edition were not very big, and I think that came from a level of conservatism, and maybe at that time that was the right choice to make. I don't know. I think my advice to a Fourth Edition designer is 'do what will make a good game.'"
I guess I also wanted to ask here, how do you weigh the two against each other.
If you like the rules and hate the flavor changes, are you pro- or anti-4E (so far, obviously it isn't out yet and seeing what is really there may well change your opinion in either direction)?
I am curious if anyone else is noticing that some of the artwork lately has been so dark that you are not able to make out much of the detail. The Sable one today and the Terrible Trio both are falling into this category for me... anyone else?
I am just glancing through the art in Worlds & Monsters before reading it more thoroughly and I see quite a few former covers to Dungeon and Dragon Magazines (and even the Compendium) in there as examples on the updated look.
Well, at least WotC is recognizing the great influence that Paizo has been on the game!
I just finished reading the Races and Classes book last night*, and it occured to me that it would be interesting to see what roles are not currently utilized by power sources and vice versa since that will hint at upcoming classes we might be seeing.
So the roles that I saw described were:
Defender - High HP, control over enemy movement in order to protect partymates
Striker - can be broken down to ranged and melee, lots of damage to a single target, doesn't have the defense of a defender
Controller - controls the battlefield either by doing damage to large numbers of creatures at once reducing total threats or by modifying the battlefield in ways advantageous to party.
Leader - 'Heals' party members (either actual healing or allowing them to more efficiently tap into healing reserves), buff party, decent in HtoH combat as well.
In each of the above cases it might be possible to have a melee or ranged version of each as well. Not sure on some of them, but could be interesting... imagine a melee controller... hrmm...
As for power sources, this is kind of what I have gleaned so far:
Martial (Melee) - This role uses weapon tricks and physical techniques to pull of their particular role in the group.
Martial (Ranged) - This isn't actually seen that much, but is hinted at with the ranger as a ranged striker... basically filling a role with ranged physical weapons like bows.
Divine - Accessing a gods power to fill your role in the group.
Arcane - Accessing magical forces directly to fill your role in a group (can be taught or learn your powers in various ways)
Nature - accessing the powers of and, well, nature of nature to fill your roll in the party. Doesn't look like this one will make an appearance in PHB I, but is certainly out there.
Alright... all that said I think it will be interesting see where there are holes in these combos and who is filling the existing slots (wethere actually announced for PHB I or not).
Defender: Martial (Melee) - Fighter
Defender: Martial (Ranged) - None. Could be interesting to have an archer of some sort capable to knocking back foes as they approach... not sure how this would work, but it intrigues me.
Defender: Divine - Paladin. Uses various 'smites' rather than weapon tricks like the fighter.
Defender: Arcane - I think this is where they are going with the Swordmage class but am not sure... could be there needs to be a melee and ranged striker designation rather than having it associated with Martial.
Defender: Nature - Druid(?). Not sure here either... they mention the part of the druid they will focus on when they port it to 4E is its ability to shape change rather than as much on healing or spell casting since that is its unique identifier, but they don't really describe the role it will play. Could be a flexible one that can shift roles. If so, this role might be filled with a dedicated Nature Defender.
Striker: Martial (Melee) - Rogue. May include the Swashbuckler at a later time as well, but they mentioned they gave some of their design intentions for the Swashbuckler to the Rogue, so who knows. Perhaps the Monk will fit here as well(?).
Striker: Martial (Ranged) - Ranger or perhaps Scout. They mention that they still plan on having the Ranger have an option between focusing on either two-weapon melee or ranged combat so they might be flexible in the two Martial Striker roles. Might just have a new class called the Sniper here as well (conjecture).
Striker: Divine - Not really a precident for this one... so it will be interesting what fills this role. I think it has a lot of potential.
Striker: Arcane - Warlock. As mentioned above, if they make a distinction with ranged and melee here, the swordmage (or bladesinger or whatever) may fall into this category instead of defender.
Striker: Nature - My guess is the Barbarian will fall here rather than as a Defender, but I can see that going either way. If not the Barbarian here, any idea what would fit this role? Could Druid again... depending on how it is done.
Controller: Martial (Melee) - Not sure how I would make this one work, but I guess the closest existing analogue I can thin of would be the current spiked chain/tripper builds under 3.5.
Controller: Martial (Ranged) - Again, not really an existing class for this role. I can see maybe an archer who focuses on number of shots for different targets rather than more damage with a single shot... or perhaps a large boulder throwing creature... not sure... ideas?
Controller: Arcane - Wizard. Really the iconic controller and the class for which the role exists. I can see this being expanded with some of the previous specialist wizards as well, just adding flavor to the role. The Illusionist, Conjurer, etc.
Controller: Divine - I can't think of a good existing class for this one either... but it could be a great spot for one. Perhaps a class that uses divine retribution (wrath of god) on lots of opponents as well as giving them all morale type penalties for daring to oppose their god.
Controller: Nature - Not really a good one here either, but I envision heavy use of eathquakes or plants reaching out to grapple all in an area and constrict and use thorns and such to tear at others... or perhaps even a summoner here... not sure.
Leader: Martial (Melee) - the Warlord is currently slated here.
Leader: Martial (Ranged) - Not sure how this one would play out... shooting your own team mates with healing seems silly... ideas? Maybe shooting various flares and signals up to give buffs? I am sure someone creative could fill this slot with something interesting.
Leader: Arcane - This definately seems the best role for a summoner to me. He could be pulling in more help at the same time as buffing his party AND the additional creatures he/she is introducing.
Leader: Divine - Cleric is the quintessential Leader, so not much question there, but I think plenty of other existing classes will likely fall here as well.
Leader: Nature - Not sure here... I can see something like a transmuter calling the nature of the elements to enhance the abilities of his party.
So what do you think? Does looking at it this way give you ideas for additional classes that might be fun to see in upcoming products?
Sean Mahoney
*(Before anyone jumps to harshly on me for dropping cash on it, I must say it was nice to read some of the thoughts of the designers to a much greater degree than we are hearing on the internet. That said I think it should have been released on DDI instead... would have made that much more successful than it is and we wouldn't be paying the price for this type of advertising... but that is neither here nor there)
If you were the designer of 4E, what would you do about the base assumption about how people play D&D.
The two options I see (shout out if you have others) would be as follows:
A) This is DUNGEONS & Dragons. The 'base' style of play is the dungeon crawl. The rules should focus on combat mainly. Once this is done then you add in what you can to support other styles of play. (Note: Role-playing is fairly rules independant and is actually restricted by adding rules to govern it... so it is not the focus).
B) Lost of people play lots of different ways. We should try and support all of them equally.
It wasn't long ago I would have said, "No, this is not a problem. It is the thoughtfulness of spell choice and choice of when to spend your resources that makes a spell caster fun." Turns out though that the rest of my gaming group (I am the DM now) doesn't agree.
I tend to play wizards because I like these aspects. All of them who have played a spellcaster have tried to avoid it (and going sorcerer to even avoid having to prepare spells).
But it turns out this is one of the major complaints of my group... so yeah, I would have to say it is a problem for many people in having fun with the game.
In the latest Paizo Blog it is mentioned that the readers of Dungeon demanded backgrounds and histories for all dragons that appear in adventures and this is something they will strive to make happen in Pathfinder.
While I think this is great, the truth is that those stories and backgrounds only make a difference if the DM can somehow get them to the PCs... otherwise it is just fluff for the GM reading it. I would be very interested in seeing places for these idease to be given out as well as having the background actually in the adventure.
For example, the blog gives a white dragon who has terrorized the Shoanti for some time and tells of legends they still tell about the raids of this great beast and the heroes who ventured to, but never returned to tell the tale. Providing a time in which the PCs meet one of these tribes and share tales with them around the camp fire would be an exceptional encounter to forshadow this type of thing (and make more sense for how the PCs go after the Dragons horde if they down it somewhere else).
I am very curious about 4e and would be very interested in hearing some discussions on it, but it seems like the majority of threads here are just complaint sessions and loud statements that people will never switch. That just isn't what I am looking for (the humor I see in the EXACT comments made when the switch from AD&D 2e to 3e took place wears off real fast).
Can anyone point me to any threads here they feel are enlightening about 4e? Things people want to see (rather than just railing against any change)? And so on?
Ok... I had fun in the best 1st level spell category and learned a few things, so I am curious about second level arcane spells. What do you think THE best is, or if you can't pare it down that much, a short list of the best.
Either core or things like the Spell Compendium are free game.
I have been consistently impressed with the artists in both Dungeon and Dragon magazines. I am curious how many of them (assuming most) have websites that we can start linking to. Know any?
So interesting story from my game that took place tonight.
First, as a point of background, I included the modification (I believe from DelvesDeep) to make Skylar Krewis to have been the ex-husband of Triel Eldurast and a member of the ill-fated patrol that she turned on and slaughtered (he was brought to negatives but stabalized and survived after a convalesence during which he found faith in St. Cuthbert).
During Life's Bazaar I had a new player who liked to go out at night and "look for clues" while aimlessly wandering the city. One night he saw a red-haired woman in spikey black armor who was speaking with some tough/punk looking fellows wearing red armbands. Further investigation told them first about the Alleybashers and actually directed them to Sgt. Krewis for more information on the lady. Krewis told them he would take this part of the investigation and try and track her down, the party resisted this until he told them the whole story of her betrayal and promised to tell them if any of this led anywhere or had anything to do with the missing children. At the time it was a red-herring for them, but the kicked themselves later for not having found out more about her (like they could have found much) after the attack on the lucky monkey. The point was, though, that it tied her closer to the plot and turned her from a random bad guy into someone the party hated.
Fast forwarding, we had a player coming in who would likely be joining the group full-time at some point in the future but would only be able to sit in for one session for right now. My players really wanted to keep playing this campaign as they were really into the story rather than a one-shot of something else since he was there. Since they were heading down into the Kopru Ruins at the beginning of the session he joined, I went ahead and advanced Krewis to level 5 to match the party and gave him to this new player. He resigned his commission (he will get it back) and joined the party to 'put an end to his divorce issues once and for all.'
Fast forward again to the encounter with Triel. The rogue in the party had found and disabled the trap on the door, so that wasn't an issue and when he opened the door combat began with initiative. Triel won with Krewis going just after her (the alarm had been set off earlier so she had 4 mooks in the room with her and had her armor on). She taunted them a bit and then cast Bull's Strength on herself to buff herself up while they played with the mooks. Then Krewis stepped into the room and begged her to lay down her weapons and come back to the city with him and he would use the last of influence to try and avoid the death penalty for her, which she of course laughed off. The mooks all moved in on Krewis and three of them surrounded him, each swinging but having their blows swept aside by a swift parry or blocked with his shield (good rolls, just not quite enough to hit him). The party then moved into the room as well, with the Paladin moving up to threaten Triel and the Sorceress softening Triel up a little with a Lesser Orb of Fire.
Then Skylar went... in advancing him he had gotten Great Cleave... and there is a reason it is called "Great." He downed all three of the mooks who had surrounded him in a single flurry of activity (cleaving into each after downing the last). I described this as reversing his sword and plunging it into the stomoch of the poor fellow behind him and leaving it in the astonished fellow, then grabbing the wrist of another as he was thrusting and tugging him off balance to impale the other guard who was also thrusting... ending both of their lives. He then let go, spun and retrieved his sword as all three toppled to the ground.
Triel was duely impressed and said "My! You have improved some! I shall enjoy laying you low a second time right after I down this pathetic patsy of St. Cuthbert." (Meaning the Paladin who was threatening her). She rolled well... but one short. The rogue then finished off the last mook and the Paladin, Cleric and Sorceress all missed Triel who was gleefully taunting them and enjoying being in the thick of battle.
Then Skylar went... He walked forward 15 feet and swung... natural 20... confirmed critical... since we use the Critical Hit Deck in our game for the PCs and "Boss Types," the player controlling Krewis was able to draw. He got a "disembowel" action. He then rolled his double damage on top of the bleed and constitution damage this would be doing... max rolls on both dice. This was described as:
"Krewis marches forward on his former wife saying, 'Very well, if this is how it must be...,' bats aside her raised flail with his shield and cuts low once with his sword. Triel's haughty expression turns to shock as she slowly looks down, sees her own innards spilling across the floor and then topples back into her still bubbling hot spring which quickly churns with reddend water."
Sgt. Skylar Krewis had three actions in this fight. He entered the room begged her to change her mind, killed 3 of her 4 guards and then laid her low in one spectacular blow. It was a perfect performance from one of the parties favorite NPCs and resolved his back story with his ex-wife beautifully. I couldn't have planned it better had I wanted to. One of those time when the dice make for a great story.
How many of you let the Players know the name of the adventure they are on and at what point?
For example, I did not give out the name of Life's Bazaar until the end of the adventure. While there is a little double meaning going on there, I figured my players would assume the meaning that someone was selling people.
On Flood Season though, I introduced it on their way back from the Lucky Monkey just after describing the ever increasing sheets of rain caused by the incoming monsoon season.
So how about you? Do you even let the Players know the name of the adventure?
I placed a fairly sizeable order last week that I have been waiting with baited breath for all week... but when I went and checked it out it still says pending.
I am running my SC campaign with an alternate rule in which I level up the PCs at appropriate times in the story rather than worry about counting XP. It seems to be working well, but I thought I would hit you all up for your ideas on when the best times to level up is.
2nd - Descending into Jzadirune (after significant RP and such)
3rd - Going down into the Malachite Fortress
4th - End of Drakthar's Way
5th - After the Lucky Monkey6th - End of Flood Season?
7th - Arrival at Bal-Hamatugn
8th - End of Zenith Trajectory
9th - Arrival at Vaprak's Voice
10th - End of Demonscar Legacy
11th - Arrival at the Plain of Cysts
12th - End of Test of the Smoking Eye
13th - End of Secrets of the Soul Pillars
14th - After House Rhiavaldi
15th - End of Lords of Oblivion
16th - End of Foundation of Flame
17th - ???
18th - End of Thirteen Cages
19th - End of the Strike of Shatterhorn
20th - Just before the fight with Adimarchus
