So I just recently had a player who is working on a build for my upcoming Curse game (we just finished Rise last Friday). I am soooo proud of him in that he is going through and coming up with a complete build and thinking about things he wants to do, and to his huge credit when he runs into an ambiguous situation he researches it to see if there is an answer and bring it up to me for ruling if it is still ambiguous.
In this case, he is looking at making a skald that uses a reach weapon and trying to see if he could use a grease spell under his opponent to 'lock' them down (thinking that they couldn't 5 ft step). He wanted to check how this work and found the following thread: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t4uk?FAQ-Can-you-5-step-out-of-Grease
I read through the full thread and it got soooo close to how things actually worked but missed the mark (the rules actually work really well in this case and can cover most of the corner cases that came up in that thread). Rather than thread-necro, I figured I would post a new thread with my understanding of how this works. So it would be there for others in the future or to hear from others who might disagree.
5-Foot Step:
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
The full text is in the spoiler, but the relevant part is: You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step
I bolded the words in that description that have definitions. (Hampered is the one missed in that discussion.)
Hampered
Difficult terrain, obstacles, and poor visibility can hamper movement (see Table: Hampered Movement for details). When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.
If more than one hampering condition applies, multiply all additional costs that apply. This is a specific exception to the normal rule for doubling.
In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don’t have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it’s not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally. (You can’t take advantage of this rule to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited to you.)
You can’t run or charge through any square that would hamper your movement.
Table: Hampered Movement
Condition Additional Movement Cost
Difficult Terrain 2
Obstacle* 2
Poor Visibility 2
Impassable —
*May require a skill check
The operative part here is: When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.
This is where people got confused and wanted to say anything that slowed movement is difficult terrain and therefor not available for a 5 ft step. Difficult Terrain causes hampered movement but all hampered movement is not difficult terrain.
Likewise, darkness is called out in the 5-ft step description. That is because darkness (lighting condition) is a condition of poor visibility and therefore has hampered movement. But not all situations that have poor visibility are caused by darkness.
This means that you have a pretty simple flow chart you can follow to see if someone can 5-ft step.
1) Do they have a movement speed of 10 or higher? If not, they can't 5 ft step.
2) Is the square they are moving into affected by hampered movement? If no, you are golden. If yes, continue.
2a) Is the hampered movement caused by difficult terrain? If not, proceed to 2b. If yes, no 5-ft step.
2b) Is the hampered movement caused by darkness? If not, then you are good. If yes, no 5-ft step.
So then let's look at some use cases before we move on to grease.
The whole map is dim light conditions (moon light), can I 5-foot step? It is a condition of poor visibility, so there would be hampered movement, but it is not darkness (a specific light condition). Yes, you can 5-foot step.
The whole map is in darkness, but my character has dark vision, can I 5-foot step? Is your movement hampered? No, darkvision alleviates the hampering affect, even though there is darkness. So yes, you can 5 ft step.
I am on a hill and my GM has defined all squares as difficult terrain, but I want to go down hill which has to be easier, can I five foot step? Difficult Terrain causes hampered movement and it is from difficult terrain, so no.
My GM made a strange rule in that same situation that moving up hill is 2x movement but moving down hill is not, but it is all still classified as difficult terrain? Moving down hill is not hampered, even though it is difficult terrain (in this particular situation), so yes you can 5-foot step.
So... let's apply this to the grease spell. Can we 5-foot step in grease? Can we 5-foot step out of grease?
Grease Spell
The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and combat maneuver checks made to escape a grapple, and to their CMD to avoid being grappled.
So... using our flow chart, is movement hampered? No, hampered movement has that (usually) x2 modifier on movement into a square. Grease does not do that. It only says you can't move unless you make an acrobatics check. If you do make that check your Speed is halved (not the same as a square having a modifier).
As long as you make the acrobatics check and the halving of your speed doesn't make your speed fall below 10 ft, then you can 5-foot step.
You can 5-foot step from a greased square to a greased square. You can 5-foot step from a grease square to a non-greased square. Grease doesn't prevent a 5-foot step in anyway (unless it pulls your speed down low enough when you make the acrobatics check).
The next big point of contention was if a creature that is leaving a greased square to 5-foot step into a non-greased square would need to make an acrobatics check or not. This is specifically looking at this part of the spell: "A creature can walk within or through the area of grease"
The discussion focused on the words "within and through" with people going back and forth. A common point was that in movement, the conditions of the square only apply when you move into the square... and while this is true (you can 5-ft step out of a difficult terrain square into one that is not hampered, example), it isn't relevant here. Why? Because of the next part of that sentence: "the area of grease." That is to say the are of the spell. The are of a spell does not follow the movement rules, it follows the magic rules.
"The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection."
All this is to say the boundary for the area of the spell is the edges of a square not the square itself. If you pass through that edge you are passing through the area of the spell.
In the case of 5-foot step from a greased square to a non-greased square, you are passing through the boundary of the spell area, so yes, you need to make the acrobatics check prior to moving. If successful, you speed is halved and you can then move about as normal. If you fail, no movement is allowed and you must make a reflex save or go prone.
This was a really long thread like in 2015, basically, some people think you can 5ft step out of grease because your speed is halved and its not difficult terrain, so as long as your base speed is 20ft or higher, you still have a 5ft step or...
Imo, your speed when you 5ft step is 5ft, and halving that means you can't 5ft step. There is also a contested middle ground where speed halving because of actual terrain features like slippery floor is supposed to count as difficult terrain but this is irrelevant to either of the previous rulings because the five foot step would be occluded or not either way because reasons not relating to grease being treated as difficult terrain.
This was a really long thread like in 2015, basically, some people think you can 5ft step out of grease because your speed is halved and its not difficult terrain, so as long as your base speed is 20ft or higher, you still have a 5ft step or...
Imo, your speed when you 5ft step is 5ft, and halving that means you can't 5ft step. There is also a contested middle ground where speed halving because of actual terrain features like slippery floor is supposed to count as difficult terrain but this is irrelevant to either of the previous rulings because the five foot step would be occluded or not either way because reasons not relating to grease being treated as difficult terrain.
Your speed isn't 5' when you take a 5' step. Its still whatever your normal speed is (30', 20', etc). Its just that you are choosing not to move the full distance you could for a tactical advantage of avoiding AoOs and changing what would normally require a move action into a non-action so you can do something else with your move action.
See for example the step up feat. Taking a 5' step with this feat doesn't mean you can't move next round, but it does remove 5' from your available movement next round,
Similarly, if I have a move speed of 60' (normal + haste). Lets say I move 10', then jump 10' more, for a total of 20' of movement, then stop. I still get a +12 to my acro check for my speed (and not a -4 for slower movement speed). eg, me only moving 20' does not make my speed 20.
Strictly RAW, Grease does not create Difficult Terrain, but it does create an effect that functions exactly like Difficult Terrain because it costs you twice to Move through it. <---- And this is where all the arguing happens, because you are not allowed to 5ft step if your movement is hampered. Also, performing a Full Round Action or a Move Action to Move 5ft =/= 5ft Step. A 5ft Step is its own Miscellaneous Action that you can only perform if you've made no other movement during the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.Move 5 Feet through Difficult Terrain
In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don’t have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (a single square). In such a case, you may spend a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it’s not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally.
GreaseSchool conjuration (creation); Level bard 1, magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, summoner/unchained summoner 1; Elemental School earth 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (butter)EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one object or 10-ft. square
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance noDESCRIPTION
A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.
The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and combat maneuver checks made to escape a grapple, and to their CMD to avoid being grappled.
Special Movement Rules
These rules cover special movement situations.
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space
Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.
Double Movement Cost
When your movement is hampered in some way, your movement usually costs double. For example, each square of movement through difficult terrain counts as 2 squares, and each diagonal move through such terrain counts as 3 squares (just as two diagonal moves normally do).
If movement cost is doubled twice, then each square counts as 4 squares (or as 6 squares if moving diagonally). If movement cost is doubled three times, then each square counts as 8 squares (12 if diagonal) and so on. This is an exception to the general rule that two doublings are equivalent to a tripling.
So, I think you should just hammer this out at your table and arrive at a consensus. You need to decide if Grease is difficult terrain at your table, yes/no? If no, then you can 5ft step. If yes, then Grease is indeed difficult terrain, therefore you may not 5ft step, but you may still take a Full Round or Move Action to move 5ft, but you have to pass a 10 DC Acrobatics first.
At no point during a 5ft Step is the PC required to make an Acrobatics check to move out of, nor in to, a square with Grease. The PC is only required to make an Acrobatics check on a Move Action to move 5ft or more through Grease; so if the PC has his movement speed so hampered that he can only use a Move Action to Move a maximum of 5ft, this will still require an Acrobatics check; even though this looks like a 5ft Step, its actually a Move Action.
This was a really long thread like in 2015, basically, some people think you can 5ft step out of grease because your speed is halved and its not difficult terrain, so as long as your base speed is 20ft or higher, you still have a 5ft step or...
Imo, your speed when you 5ft step is 5ft, and halving that means you can't 5ft step. There is also a contested middle ground where speed halving because of actual terrain features like slippery floor is supposed to count as difficult terrain but this is irrelevant to either of the previous rulings because the five foot step would be occluded or not either way because reasons not relating to grease being treated as difficult terrain.
Your speed isn't 5' when you take a 5' step. Its still whatever your normal speed is (30', 20', etc). Its just that you are choosing not to move the full distance you could for a tactical advantage of avoiding AoOs and changing what would normally require a move action into a non-action so you can do something else with your move action.
See for example the step up feat. Taking a 5' step with this feat doesn't mean you can't move next round, but it does remove 5' from your available movement next round,
Similarly, if I have a move speed of 60' (normal + haste). Lets say I move 10', then jump 10' more, for a total of 20' of movement, then stop. I still get a +12 to my acro check for my speed (and not a -4 for slower movement speed). eg, me only moving 20' does not make my speed 20.
Actually, your speed is determined by the action you take to achieve movement. If you aren't spending a move action (or other action that gives you movement), i.e. 5ft stepping, then your speed is in fact 5ft. That is why difficult terrain prevents 5ft stepping. Usually you spend a move action to get your walking speed of 1*your base speed, two move actions to hustle for 2*base speed, or run for 3/4/5*base speed (depending on encumbrance/feats/abilities etc.), but when you aren't doing that or getting speed from elsewhere, your speed is just 5ft.
Think of it this way, you're moving 30ft in 6 seconds, or you're moving 60ft in 6 seconds. These aren't the same speed, even though they can be achieved by the same person spending their actions in different ways. It is the same as if you carefully inch your way in tactical movement for 5ft in 6 seconds, but your speed is not the same as if you had moved 30ft/6s for a 1s burst and then suddenly halted. That would be the equivalent of spending the move action, provoking, and then halting for whatever reason (say someone else with a readied action moved up to block the way you wanted to go with their own threaten squares, you aren't suddenly and retroactively no longer qualifying your previous movement as not provoking from the first guy you moved away from.) Your speed is 5ft, becoming 2.5ft by the grease, then 0 because rounding, ergo you cannot take the 5ft step.
|
Actually, your speed is determined by the action you take to achieve movement. If you aren't spending a move action (or other action that gives you movement), i.e. 5ft stepping, then your speed is in fact 5ft.
No. Your speed stays what your speed for that form of movement is. A 5' step dictates as much as you move, not your speed.
Taking a 5' step doesn't change your speed stat.To explain it better where what you say break: you can't take a 5' step while flying, say "my speed is 5', so I don't need to make a fly check to have moved less than half of my speed even if my normal flying speed is 60'".
Think of it this way, you're moving 30ft in 6 seconds, or you're moving 60ft in 6 seconds. These aren't the same speed, even though they can be achieved by the same person spending their actions in different ways. It is the same as if you carefully inch your way in tactical movement for 5ft in 6 seconds, but your speed is not the same as if you had moved 30ft/6s for a 1s burst and then suddenly halted. That would be the equivalent of spending the move action, provoking, and then halting for whatever reason (say someone else with a readied action moved up to block the way you wanted to go with their own threaten squares, you aren't suddenly and retroactively no longer qualifying your previous movement as not provoking from the first guy you moved away from.) Your speed is 5ft, becoming 2.5ft by the grease, then 0 because rounding, ergo you cannot take the 5ft step.
Your speed and how much you moved aren't the same thing. Speed is a stat of a character. Movement is how much he moved.
Taking a double move or running doesn't change your speed stat.
@vhok
Yes, it matters about the difficult terrain in the square you're entering, but if your movement is already hampered by a multitude of effects in a square that you currently occupy, then you can't 5ft step out of it, you have to use a Move Action, or Full Round Action to Move, instead. Sometimes your movement can be hampered so badly because there are 4+ different effects in that one square, and you can only make a Move Action or Full Round Action of 5ft because you have 4+ effects that are halving your Move Speed, and this is where a majority of the "can you take a 5ft step out of a Grease square" arguments occur, and it's because apparently the Grease spell doesn't but also does create Difficult Terrain.
The argument occurs because of these two rules bolded below:
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.Move 5 Feet through Difficult Terrain
In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don’t have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (a single square). In such a case, you may spend a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it’s not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally.
Personally, I'm in the "Grease doesn't create difficult terrain" camp. Even though what it actually does is exactly the same as difficult terrain, it isn't difficult terrain because it doesn't say so in the spell. There are 100 spells out there that create difficult terrain and they specifically call it out as such in the spell description, and Grease doesn't explicitly call it difficult terrain. So I think you can 5ft step through/into grease without an acrobatics check, and you can 5ft step out of it as well. However, if your movement speed is hampered by 2nd, 3rd, or 4th effects, then you must use a Move or Full Round Action to Move, and an acrobatics check would be necessary, but only if you're moving INTO a square with grease (not OUT of a square with grease).
Think of it this way, you're moving 30ft in 6 seconds, or you're moving 60ft in 6 seconds. These aren't the same speed, even though they can be achieved by the same person spending their actions in different ways. It is the same as if you carefully inch your way in tactical movement for 5ft in 6 seconds, but your speed is not the same as if you had moved 30ft/6s for a 1s burst and then suddenly halted. That would be the equivalent of spending the move action, provoking, and then halting for whatever reason (say someone else with a readied action moved up to block the way you wanted to go with their own threaten squares, you aren't suddenly and retroactively no longer qualifying your previous movement as not provoking from the first guy you moved away from.) Your speed is 5ft, becoming 2.5ft by the grease, then 0 because rounding, ergo you cannot take the 5ft step.
If I have a speed of 30', and I want to move 30', but after 10' someone with a readed action gets in my way, and I stop. At this point, what is my speed? Answer: It is still 30'. How far did I move? 10'. As Diego pointed out, distance moved and speed are not equivalent.
But let's take the example a step further. I have a base speed of 30'. I am targeted by a slow spell, so now my speed is 15'. I use a move action and want to move 15'. After 10' of movement someone with a readied action gets in my way. What is my speed now? Is it 10', further slowed to 5'? (Do I now need to retroactively retract 5' of my movement?) No, my speed is still 15'. My total distance moved was 10'. eg, if they are equivalent, and my speed changes to the distance moved, and I am slowed, then my speed is really only half the distance I moved. And since I can't move farther than my speed...