Beginner looking into Multiclass Theory


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My two cents - make it fun. I love multiclassing to fit the character. I've "screwed-up" builds because the character went through a traumatic experience and taking a class dip or total change of course to reflect that event really made the character come alive for me.

On the other hand, in the same process I've created some really awesome characters who may not have been able to have the same level of damage output as others, but that one or two level dip in another class gave me a trick to pull out that saved the day.

That said, if everyone else at the table is a power gamer, you may have to just stick it out to get the most DPR you can in order not to feel like you're just sitting on the sidelines.

One more note on multiclassing: a lot of Paizo's AP named baddies are multiclassed. I'd like to think this means they intended that multiclassing was supposed to be the rule and straight classing the exception.


Sideromancer, that is exceptionally interesting role play and I may have to co-opt aspects of that to what degree I can as the idealist subconsciously drinking away the trauma of her prior death. :3


SO ive had time to poke the first level of bloodrager and skald with a stick.

if im not mistaken, their respective enrages run on a separate counter to the normal version of rage, given that they have a different name? by itself that's kind of interesting, and could give me an effective rage rounds per day boost equivalent to the extra rage feat. on the other hand, they dont increase dexterity so the chance to hit with a bow wouldn't go up.

skald also packs cantrips and bardic knowledge, so if i really need gravity bow i can buy a gravity bow wand and install it with the wandweapon spell rather than relying on the arcane arrow feature to cast it innately.

is it true that by paying an amount extra you can get a wand with infinite charges? if so, rather than using wandweapon myself, i could pay to have it applied permanently once i get my adaptibow. of course, that's a pretty expensive proposition, but given my charisma is high i can probably earn money by dancing in cities to make up the difference. just need to pay for a dancer's garb to increase my profits.

either way, excluding the ability to cast spells when both hands are occupied with a bow, skald seems to be objectively superior to arcane archer, at least at first level. and including it, couldn't i just hold a bow with one hand and use the other to cast? bows dont seem like a huge hinderance to spellcasting.

bloodrager's bloodlines are of interest as well, but mostly only apply to melee attacks, like if i need to club somebody with my bow, which is a little disappointing.


neither of those would be good for an archer to dip into.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Priyd wrote:
if im not mistaken, their respective enrages run on a separate counter to the normal version of rage, given that they have a different name? by itself that's kind of interesting, and could give me an effective rage rounds per day boost equivalent to the extra rage feat. on the other hand, they dont increase dexterity so the chance to hit with a bow wouldn't go up.

Yes, Bloodrage and Raging Song are both different than the Barbarian Rage. They would have their own counters for number of rounds per day.

An Urban Bloodrager or Urban Skald could improve Dexterity with their Bloodrager or Raging Song.

I had also suggested the Spell Warrior Skald. It doesn't do a normal Raging Song, instead giving bonuses to weapons. With it you could add Flaming to a bow and increase the damage.

Using the normal classes without an archetype wouldn't be very useful to an archer.

"Priyd wrote:
is it true that by paying an amount extra you can get a wand with infinite charges?

I'm not aware of anything that would allow that.


ah its just a thing i heard from an associate. something like double or triple price. he may have been thinking of that other game, since most of his suggestions involve complicated interactions with various classes and books that i haven't seen on the srd at all. largely of the fullcaster variety, which isn't something that appeals to me right now.

and urban bloodrager and skald im having a little trouble finding on the srd? spell warrior is pretty nice though. give up scribing (seems not super useful unless fullcaster, though i guess i could make some low end stuff like poison cures to save for later) to pick up counterspell (granted i could only counter up to 3rd level and that would only be something i could do once or twice) and be able to give any (one) person (including myself) a free weapon buff with enrage? it is a nice support.


okay i found the urbans.

they arent actually shown on the srd in the main class listing. you need to actively go out looking for them. thats bothersome.

so urban skald. i don't actually think its as good as the spell warrior for only one level, because while you can increase your physical stats in any combination you want, it has to be done in sets of 2, and its not as potent as the barbarian or bloodrager.

although it can be given to somebody else, but a property like flaming from the spell warrior would probably equal to more damage compared to a +2 to strength, although +1 AC and to-hit with ranged/finesse from the +2 dexterity IS nice.

urban bloodrager....this one actually excites me a little bit. the reason why is because there's an archetype related to catfolk that it seems to not conflict with, the prowler at world's end.

prowler does force you to take the destined bloodline, but if theres other good bloodlines then one of those might be able to be taken as a crossblooded? bloodragers are surprisingly flexible with what you can have them potentially do or be.


The Sideromancer wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
Priyd, you're going to have HP and swift-touch-healing out the butt as a paladin. Why do you want to hang back and plink with archery when you're built to tank? (Some deities might even consider permitting your friends to die in melee while your armor remains spotless to be an act of cowardice. YMMV.)

referral to the department of half-formed characters

"That's not how I was taught to leverage my powers in an adventuring situation. What you're describing works fine for a Crusade where you stand alongside others of the faithfu--

What I'm describing is a situation I've seen develop more than once in a smash-mouth PFS death-mod where the party was in over their heads and *the literal toughest character at the table* wouldn't get in there and play blocker with his *awesome AC* while laying down some sick melee beats with an extended threat-range two-hander, then soak off the damage with a swift-LoH.
Quote:
  • You need to be able to assist any members of your group that need it. Not leaving yourself vulnerable to an enemy's claws while moving can rarely be accomplished with anything but distance.
  • As likely the most knowledgeable about tactics, a wider view of the situation provides you with more opportunity to reevaluate your strategy.
  • You are the best equipped to defeat the likes of demons. With a bow, you can waste no time between their appearance and the effects of your smite, leaving less time for their magical abilities to undermine you or your team.
  • It's much easier to lay on hands with one hand empty than manoeuvring past your own shield.

Translation: "I am the toughest character here, but I will endeavor to be the person farthest from the enemy at all times. Because I am brave, brave Sir Robin who runs away, and I read some guide that said archery paladins are dpr superstuds!" (said guide written in the paleolithic era of 2009)

<my right eye gets all big and bulgy while the left goes squinty and twitchy>

(Disclosure: Slim Jim despises onetrickpony archery false-paladins with the burning fire of thousand apocalyptic suns, for he has attained the advanced rank of Operating Thetan Level 8 in the High Cult of Switchhitology, and has witnessed first-hand the treacherous heresy of their cowardly ways.)

Silver Crusade

Oh yes they are. I have one bloodrager that transforms into a tiny songbird and another that uses amplified rage while enlarged and under the effect of a strength mutagen.

But like sideromancer and priyd said, roleplay is a very important aspect when you design a character, but it can be more important when swapping out class abilities.

Your PC should make sense in terms of the choices that he or she made as an adventurer in their world; but they should also make sense to players at the table so that the whole party can act as one team.

I've made that mistake before when I said that my monk would be a perfect fit for the party, then had to explain at the start of the first combat how she didn't have flurry of blows or high str or dex or any skill at combat maneuvers, but had access to spells and inspire courage and an animal companion and is actually a skill monkey.

Yeah, now I do it in the other order and introduce that character as a bard with a kitty cat -- because that is the role that she fills in the party. Then when we role play I draw out how she is just an elderly monk who can offer sound advice to these young whippersnappers. It helps the table play better and the story unfold easier.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Priyd wrote:
spell warrior is pretty nice though. give up scribing (seems not super useful unless fullcaster, though i guess i could make some low end stuff like poison cures to save for later) to pick up counterspell (granted i could only counter up to 3rd level and that would only be something i could do once or twice) and be able to give any (one) person (including myself) a free weapon buff with enrage? it is a nice support.

You should probably ignore the Counterspell ability on Spell Warrior. Even on a full Skald using that archetype it is unlikely to be useful since the NPCs are most often going to be casting spells of higher level than you get off the Bard progression.

It is the ability to give Flaming, Frost, or Ghost Touch that I think is really valuable. It also gets around the problem of people not wanting to get the Raging Song because it interferes with their class abilities. Normal Raging Song is stronger, but this is a version that even a Magus or Eldrich Knight could make use of.

You will need to watch the special abilities with ranged weapons carefully though. You will want to look carefully at Table 15-10 to make sure the special ability has the superscript 2 on it (bestowing the enchantment from the weapon on ammunition) and watch out for things like Ghost Touch not being on that table. You can’t put that enchantment on ranged weapons.

Grand Lodge

Oli Ironbar wrote:

...

I've made that mistake before when I said that my monk would be a perfect fit for the party, then had to explain at the start of the first combat how she didn't have flurry of blows or high str or dex or any skill at combat maneuvers, but had access to spells and inspire courage and an animal companion and is actually a skill monkey.

...

I often introduce my character as the class they are most similar to in combat. My evangelist is a casty bard type. My sacred huntmaster inquisitor is a weird cavalier. My druid is a monk, my shaman is a monk, my other druid is an archer slayer, and my fighter is a hunter.

People then kind of know what they are getting in combat. Out of combat I can surprise them with whatever weird stuff other stuff the character can do.


Lol these stories are amazing. By all means keep an coming.

How should I introduce myself then, a drunken bow cleric with a temper? :p

I'll look at what buffs can apply to ammo and see whether I want that or an insane supernatural clusterf%%% (crossblooded [destined, celestial] urban prowler at the end of the world bloodrager) that will just lead me into being angrier and drunker. Thank God for the beer God.

...realistically between murder, anger, greed, lust, a vain desire for glory, and drunken disorderly I am a TERRIBLE paladin. Who lets people like me into the order anyway?

By the way, I'm not against moving into melee range if it's necessary, though obviously i'd want to avoid it whenever possible. Im not making a frontliner here. Should I blow a feat on improvised weapon, use a potential defiance on preparing bowstaff, or just eat the -4 to-hit and rely on rage/smite to compensate do you think?


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Priyd wrote:
How should I introduce myself then, a drunken bow cleric with a temper? :p

You have a home game, playing with the same people. The introduction will not be quite as important for you as it would be for someone in an Organized Play environment. There, you generally have a different group every time you play. You get to know some of the other players, but you may not know who will be there until you sit at the table.

Still, thinking about the introduction may help you discover something more about your character.

Your deity is obviously important to your character, so that should be part of the introduction.

You should figure out if the bow is something your character loves or just a weapon that they have found they have a talent for. How you view it can make a big difference.

In any case, hope you have fun!


Slim Jim wrote:
[...]
Paladin Code of Sarenrae wrote:
The best battle is a battle I win. If I die, I can no longer fight. I will fight fairly when the fight is fair, and I will strike quickly and without mercy when it is not.

Don't you just love how awkward the concept of honour is?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

You should definitely carry a backup melee weapon or two

A longsword and morningstar cover bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage. You can hold a bow in your left hand and hit stuff with the melee weapon you are wielding in your right hand, and then just drop the melee weapon when you need to shoot again.

Alternatively, you can carry some throwing weapons that are also usable in melee, like throwing axes, spears, chakrams (like Xena!), etc.


okay, im definitely taking the bloodrager.

i dont think most of the first level bloodline features are very useful for a (primarily) ranged character, but i just learned something interesting:

i can swap that first level feature for a bloodline familiar. familiars can do all kinds of neat stuff with archetypes or improved familiar. the downside of this choice being you gain spells known and spells per day at a reduced rate, but bloodragers cant cast s$*~ until like 4th level anyway so that doesnt even come into play on a 1 level dip.

...so how the hell do archetypes work exactly? im trying to figure out the rules but its kind of confusing, so a dumbed down primer would be very helpful.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Priyd wrote:

okay, im definitely taking the bloodrager.

i dont think most of the first level bloodline features are very useful for a (primarily) ranged character, but i just learned something interesting:

i can swap that first level feature for a bloodline familiar. familiars can do all kinds of neat stuff with archetypes or improved familiar. the downside of this choice being you gain spells known and spells per day at a reduced rate, but bloodragers cant cast s~*! until like 4th level anyway so that doesnt even come into play on a 1 level dip.

...so how the hell do archetypes work exactly? im trying to figure out the rules but its kind of confusing, so a dumbed down primer would be very helpful.

The familiar will have your base saves, BAB, and half your hit points. It uses it's own attributes to modify saves and attack bonus. With only a single level of Bloodrager, you will not get the other improvements from the table on pg. 83 of the CRB (Int, Natural Armor Adjustment, Speak with Master, etc) that come with higher level.

Archetypes generally swap one feature for another within a class. You can't modify the same class feature twice nor can you swap out a feature you've already given up. You can add more than one archetype provided these restrictions are obeyed.

Let's take the Urban Bloodrager as an example.

It changes class skills, so you couldn't combine it with any other archetype that changed skills even if the skills changed were completely different.

They don't have proficiency with shields, so you couldn't combine it with an archetype that changes weapon or armor proficiency.

They have Controlled Bloodrage which changes how the rage works. You couldn't combine this with another archetype that also modifies the Bloodrage.

They give away Blood Santuary in exchange for Restrained Magic.

They do not get DR, instead getting the ability to change their class spell list.

You can take it with any Bloodline, although they had suggestions of which ones might be useful.

Looking at the archetypes in the ACG, you could not combine this with the Steelblood or GreenRager archetypes since they both modify parts of the class that the Urban Bloodrager changed -- armor proficiency and Blood Santuary respectively. It looks like the rest of them from ACG would work with the Urban Bloodrager archetype.

Note that it does not matter if you are high enough level to have those class features, two archetypes that both modified the capstone ability would not be compatible even for a one level dip.


BretI wrote:
Priyd wrote:

okay, im definitely taking the bloodrager.

i dont think most of the first level bloodline features are very useful for a (primarily) ranged character, but i just learned something interesting:

i can swap that first level feature for a bloodline familiar. familiars can do all kinds of neat stuff with archetypes or improved familiar. the downside of this choice being you gain spells known and spells per day at a reduced rate, but bloodragers cant cast s~*! until like 4th level anyway so that doesnt even come into play on a 1 level dip.

...so how the hell do archetypes work exactly? im trying to figure out the rules but its kind of confusing, so a dumbed down primer would be very helpful.

The familiar will have your base saves, BAB, and half your hit points. It uses it's own attributes to modify saves and attack bonus. With only a single level of Bloodrager, you will not get the other improvements from the table on pg. 83 of the CRB (Int, Natural Armor Adjustment, Speak with Master, etc) that come with higher level.

Archetypes generally swap one feature for another within a class. You can't modify the same class feature twice nor can you swap out a feature you've already given up. You can add more than one archetype provided these restrictions are obeyed.

Let's take the Urban Bloodrager as an example.

It changes class skills, so you couldn't combine it with any other archetype that changed skills even if the skills changed were completely different.

They don't have proficiency with shields, so you couldn't combine it with an archetype that changes weapon or armor proficiency.

They have Controlled Bloodrage which changes how the rage works. You couldn't combine this with another archetype that also modifies the Bloodrage.

They give away Blood Santuary in exchange for Restrained Magic.

They do not get DR, instead getting the ability to change their class spell list.

You can take it with any Bloodline, although they had suggestions of which ones...

ah, i should have been more specific, im sorry. i meant how FAMILIAR archetypes work. im generally pretty clear on Class archetypes. also it would help to figure out how familiar selection itself works.

and im sorry i just caught that massive multipost issue. i dont know how or why that happened but ill clear those out


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Familiar Archetypes and Bloodline Familiars are both from Familiar Folio.

Familiar archetypes work pretty much the same way as class archetypes, except they are modifying the familiars instead of the character.

Since many of them trade out speak with creatures of their kind, they are incompatible with the Improved Familiar feat.

I'm not sure if any of them can be combined since so many modify the same features.

Which familiar archetype(s) were you looking at?


protector would be an obvious one to prevent me from getting toasted by stray direct damage when im already continuously losing health (and LoHing it off when it gets low enough to warrant giving up a Full Attack of course) from life link and shield other.

but im going to look at alternatives too. while trying to figure out what sorts of familiars i can even get.

and i do know boon companion can give them a nice boost in levels to make up for a low caster level so that they can grant new abilities, in case theres a point where that's worth it.

i mean in theory my ac with mithral and my saves from...well, "being a paladin" really (good saves seem to be a largely inherent aspect of the class) should mean it isn't super important but every little bit helps, no?

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