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The war of good vs good is over, it was hard fought, but in the end neither of us will be here.

Are Warded Touch and Hospice Knight stricken from the feat list to instead give us actual choices that go beyond making your character functional?

I feel like this edition now parallels 5e too much, with your choice being made early level and the rest of it is just padding and waiting.

This doesn't feel like customization, but rather more like having most of the work done for you.

When I first read the description for how feats worked, I was under the impression that all the class features were gone, and you instead picked them ala cart in the vein that talents/ rage powers/ revelations worked, and there would be a large robust list of choices.

Archetypes would let you mix and match at a feat tax.

You still got to choose your skills and how to fight.

This is not what I wanted. It's 5e, but with more paperwork and your choices after the initial really don't influence your capabilities much.

Hopefully there will be some opening up of that. I presume not, Paizo seems dead set on giving you a specific package of choices that really only give you a binary or trinary of options, level gated to determine what challenges to put in their APs at those levels to ensure they can push APs out faster and with less headache.

PF2 is a game for those who enjoy the Golarion setting and the Golarion stories, any home setting is going to have to play so much like Golarion that it's gonna feel pointless to try anything new or experimental.

I've decided since getting defamed by the staff that I'm not giving Paizo any more of my money, but this play style also doesn't cater to mine.

I believe in sharing one's personal truth. I hold it at the highest of virtues. TELL THE TRUTH, EVEN IF YOU MUST RISK OFFENSE.

The truth holds more value than a comforting lie, and forcing myself to abridge my truth is not the way to help the play test.

We continue to jump around the play test to get a feel for the game, and this time around we jumped into the 7th level adventure, which is a survival horror game where you get SWAMPED with undead.

For comparison, one of my players made a battle cleric, and I made a paladin. We wanted to see who performed better and why.

It was him, for the obvious reasons, if said reasons aren't so obvious, continue reading.

cleric build

CN Human cleric of Gorum
1) Emblazon Symbol
2) Fighter Dedication (ended up being kinda wasted)
4) Expanded Domain (coulda been a fighter feat imo)
6) Channel Smite

paladin build
LG human paladin
1) Hospice Knight; Warded Touch
2) Divine Grace
4) Domain (Weapon Surge)
6) Attack of Opportunity

For combat, my paladin focused on Feint (being high in CHA) and use a bastard sword (d12s) to get the best damage possible. However, I had no means to bypass DR on the vampire spawns. I felt like a generic character who was not very good at smiting undead. I did crit a lot, but when you're fighting a hoard of level 0-3 zombies that tends to happen. Most of the time my crits were overkill. It was not very satisfying to play, I wanted to conserve my resources so I only used 1 Weapon Surge and 1 Lay on Hands (meaning I still have my remaining for the boss that we haven't fought yet.)

The cleric on the other hand had a jolly old time. He had spells to buff himself, could cast anything he wanted with his weapons (I had to build specifically to be able to do this, as there is not a feat that just lets paladins use SP with a weapon, only specific powers), and he had channels that devastated the vampire spawns. He not only bypassed their resistances, but nova'd for massive damage that rivaled my crits on a regular hit. He also could add in his Destructive Smite thing for gorum's domain just to add insult to injury.

I did get Retributive Strike to trigger 4 times naturally (which means I owe HWalsh at least 4 neener neeners) so that made me happy, but I realized how bad the ability is because I only got one reaction per round and it hardly made a difference when it came to the hoard attacking us.

The entire party had sufficient healing, but considering we were supposed to be the big damage bringers, I didn't feel my class contributed anything to combat that I couldn't have gotten from any other class using a d12 weapon (because I didn't).

I can say now that swords are the one true weapon group, as the crit specialization effect 100% allowed me to crit on a secondary attack, not sure if this is a good or bad thing for the game at large.

At the end of the day, the paladin class is just really lacking, and seeing the cleric be able to smite better than the paladin and having more damage than the paladin, and having more to do than the paladin just felt wrong. Mostly because none of my class features really mattered, compared to everyone else at the table. Most of my character's contribution came from system competence and understanding the value of trading an action for +2 to hit, whether it be in using Feint or in moving into flanking position. Also I HATE how heavy armor works now, and I feel the speed reduction is too much at 10ft. I also find it odd that the paladin has no way to bypass it.

I am dissapoint.

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Pramxnim wrote:

The adjacency requirement for an ally is just for Shield Warden. Retributive Strike works like a more restrictive Combat Challenge from 4e, and Combat Challenge triggered often enough.

If you want to buff Retributive Strike, either make it trigger on attacks, not just hits, or increase its range to, say 15 ft around the Paladin. It would make them better battlefield controllers, and the Strike could be favoured as a holy smite that arcs from the Paladin's weapon to his foe.

SWORD BEAMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NEVER SAY DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And there began the second great battle in the war for the rights to the name paladins.

S+&& continued to be crazy yo, everyone talks about how great being a paladin is, until it's time to do paladin s%*#.

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NEVER SAY DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Remember week 1 of the blog era when I posted in our first paladin thread of this edition that I feared never having one again?

Silly me, I'm immune to fear, wait.....

HWalsh wrote:
I'm not offended either, it just seemed as though you were jumping on the "you have to double slice to be competent" and from my analysis Double Slice is probably too good (I expect it will be nerfed) but also it closes off so many other Paladin avenues because you *really* need either a Shield or a Free Hand to take advantage of them.

The paladin feat that removes the [manipulate] trait is apparently also supposed to include casting and/or using lay on hands with an item in hand, at least according to what some people have heard as feedback from the devs.

For what that's worth.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Is Iomedae clearly the best option for Paladins just because Zeal (both the basic domain power and the fact that the advanced one gives 3 spell points)?

Looks to be so, yes.

I'm of the opinion that Double Slice is not too good, but exactly as good as it's supposed to be. Compared to the other options, it actually does something helpful to your builds and has multiple tactical uses and is pretty much everything you want from a feat in PF2.

All other styles need to be buffed and leave Double Slice alone.

magnaangemon01 wrote:

Alright, guys, it's just a playtest. Nothing to get worked up over. Paladin_knight is just trying to tell you how to maximize your damage. What you do after that is up to you. You don't have to take his advice.

Personally, HWalsh, I'm on your side. And that's the great thing about these games. You can do what you want. You can just file away his advice for another character. That's what I'm going to do.

There's really no point getting worked up over something that may not even reach the final product in the same condition.

Side of what exactly?

I'm pointing out mathematical differences that create great amounts of disparity and enforce system mastery. The goal here is for builds like this one to come close to, or otherwise trade off potential for better play.

Villifying me and attacking me personally for identifying the issues of the system is not an attack or offense to any individual.

I'm offended that either of you feel the need to go after me and call me out for your own presuppositions of me. I never meant to insult or defame anyone here, you're choosing to be offended and blaming me for it.

I'm trying to help you, I'm on your side, but claiming there are sides in the first place is divisive and toxic behavior that is not productive or conducive to the cause of making the game better.

HWalsh wrote:
Paladin_Knight_marshmallow wrote:

Or I could just go:

[A] Blade of Justice, [A] Strike (MAP 0), {A\\] Double Slice (MAP-4/-4)
This has way better odds of hitting, and critting, multiple times over.

Litany of Righteousness is a joke, Blade of Justice is weak, but when you combine it with Instrument of Zeal it works okay. Double Slice is in all ways superior to most other combat styles, and by most I mean all of them so far as written in PF2.

Math matters, design matters, system competence matters. I want your build to be viable and playable, I really do, but as the game is written all you've proven is that you didn't read enough. It's okay though, read more, post more, and hopefully the devs will work on the other styles to bring them up to Double Slice's bar, because it is an incredible feat. In fact, it might be better than Sudden Charge, or at least equal to it.

First off:

Again: Double slice is only good if you are going dual wielding - If you *are* then it is great. If you are trying to optimize then it is wonderful (unless we are all incorrect about Warded Touch potentially removing the requirement of needing a free hand to use LoH at which point then Double Slice pretty much removes your own self-healing)...

Yes, if you are an optimizer you probably want it, congrats. We aren't all optimizers.



1. If I were a dual wielder, I would not bother with Blade of Justice. It only adds a +1 per die the weapon is and only effects one weapon (as we can't get 2 blade allies to my understanding). So you're likely looking at a +1 - +2 damage boost and if you are an "Optimizer" who is already basically saying everything that isn't double slice is trash, then well... Why bother? Totally not worth the action loss.

2. In a game that has been out for less than a week and a half missing one line isn't any reason for you to be condescending.

3. You keep focusing pretty much on, "Everything but Double Slice is trash" and it simply isn't the case. Yes, things aren't as...

I don't think you read my post at all then if you're still attacking me personally, maybe step away from the keyboard for a while....

Optimization is one thing, competence is another. The difference here is that when we're talking about design of the game I want to make sure that a player who isn't an optimizer can make a build like yours and not fall significantly behind another player at the table who is optimized.

I'm on your side here guy.

HWalsh wrote:

Here is an interesting feat chain...

First off "Double Slice" isn't the best thing since sliced bread. It is a dual wielding thing. I don't see a point in it if you aren't dual wielding and you can burst out a little.

Check the math, the ability to drop either two attacks at no MAP, or the ability to drop one attack at no MAP and two at MAP -4 is superior to all other styles mathematically. Gonna need to do another distribution spread for full attacks vs only double attacks, but this is true no matter the scenario, especially given the game's intended focus on crits and the incredible lack of ways to improve your attack bonus. This statement is just plain wrong. I want it to be right, it's our job to bring the other styles up so that it is right, but as of now with the way the math of the game works this is not right.


Here is my Swordmaiden of Iomedae feat Chain:

This is for a one handed no shield Longsword build.

01: Deity's Domain (Zeal!) (+1 Spell Point)
Seems okay so far
02: Fighter Dedication
I'm following
04: Basic Training: Dueling Parry
So the purpose of this feat is to waste a feat to get less benefits than using a shield for the same action cost? Seems bad. Plus, by 8th level you could take Twin Parry and do the same thing, but potentially better with Twin Parry and Double Slice.
06: Advanced Training: Furious Focus
WHY!?!?!? This feat only enhances your ability to fail, and let's you do what you already could do better with Double Slice as you get the option of actually landing your secondary attack and still making another secondary attack. This feat is a trap.
08: Blade of Justice
Sadly, I don't see this feat being that great at all for a single weapon build, that action tax means you need better returns on it or you'll just be wasting actions, and feats. This feat needs to get better.
10: Radiant Blade Spirit
Now that I've looked into it, Holy is actually pretty garbage since it costs a reaction to activate now and prevents you from taking other reactions that turn, and only for 1d6 good damage, it's still an action tax, and it's one that removes Retributive Strike from your repertoire.
12: Advanced Training: Dueling Dance
This is a 12th level fighter feat. You will never qualify for it.
14: Litany of Righteousness (+1 Spell Point)
A trap option as it turns out, especially if you only use one weapon to get the benefits from, it's a one shot deal to maybe get 5 damage on an enemy once, since the enemy is then bolstered to all your litanies, and if I need to drop that enemy this turn to make using this ability worth it, then I'm sticking with Double Slice because I'll get more attacks in, have better chances to hit, and get more damage.
16: Angel Form
This is a level 18 feat, and you always want Instrument of Zeal at this level unless you're not built for damage.
18: Advanced Domain (You are only taking this for +3 Spell Points)
Take it earlier, but I agree on its utility.
20: Advanced Training: Weapon Supremacy
Illegal feat, can only be taken by 20th level fighters, and you only count as 10th.

This is about 1/2 Fighter, but is a lot of fun. It is all about spamming attacks and maximizing defense. Dueling Dance allows you to activate your Dueling Parry without spending an action. You always have a free hand to use Lay on Hands if you have to. At level 20 you get free haste for more attacks and Furious Focus helps you to not suffer unnecessary attack penalties.

My comments are in bold beneath each choice. Most, if not all of this is wrong and doesn't follow the rules in the book.

You can also pump out some good extra damage by dropping your Weapon Surge domain power to add an extra die of damage to your normal strike, or Litany to give your opponent a weakness to your Radiant Blade Spirit.

Action taxes do not help you do more damage than just making an extra attack. Why is this so difficult to understand?


If an enemy is in melee with you and you're hasted:

Action 1: Litany of Justice
Action 2: Blade of Justice
Action 3: Attack
Action 4: Attack

That is a pretty good combination, if both attacks hit the Litany (at level 14) adds an extra 5 damage per hit. On top of the extra damage from Blade of Justice, which is granted, kind of lame at only +1 damage per weapon Die, but, with a +3 sword? Perfectly reasonable at level 14... You're hitting that sucker for 4d8+Strength+1d6+9 which ain't half bad in this system assuming you have a +6 Strength by that point (very reasonable) you're dealing out an average of 37 damage on the first hit, with a reasonable 29 on the followup? In this system that ain't too bad to be honest.

Or I could just go:

[A] Blade of Justice, [A] Strike (MAP 0), {A\\] Double Slice (MAP-4/-4)

This has way better odds of hitting, and critting, multiple times over.

Litany of Righteousness is a joke, Blade of Justice is weak, but when you combine it with Instrument of Zeal it works okay. Double Slice is in all ways superior to most other combat styles, and by most I mean all of them so far as written in PF2.

Math matters, design matters, system competence matters. I want your build to be viable and playable, I really do, but as the game is written all you've proven is that you didn't read enough. It's okay though, read more, post more, and hopefully the devs will work on the other styles to bring them up to Double Slice's bar, because it is an incredible feat. In fact, it might be better than Sudden Charge, or at least equal to it.

magnaangemon01 wrote:
Paladin_Knight_marshmallow wrote:

sample build:

Human (Merchant)
STR 18 ->19 (5th) ->20 (10th) ->21 (15th) ->22 (20th)
DEX 12 ->14 (20th)
CON 12 ->14 (5th) ->16 (10th) ->18 [ooc](15th)
INT 10 ->12 (20th)
WIS 10 ->12 (5th) ->14 (10th) ->16 (15th) ->18 [ooc](20th)
CHA 16 ->18 (5th) ->19 [ooc](10th) ->20 (15th)

[1] Hospice Knight, Natural Ambition (Warded Touch)
[2] Divine Grace [Fighter Dedication seems better]
[4] Deity's Domain (Zeal- Weapon Surge) [Double Slice seems better]

If you use the Bastard Sword, would it be better to take Basic Maneuver to gain Power Attack?

Absolutely not, Power Attack on it's own is a trap but it's awful on paladins especially when double slice is an option since your class features will add damage to both attacks.

Superior style is superior.

Most of these feats are weak options, and often gaining full utility of a single ability had it's feats spread out inn such a way that you really don't get a choice in what feats to take. It's like the 5e paladin but with no real way to generate meaningful damage. When the benefits of a 12th level feat give me +1 good damage I'm skeptical.

sample build:

Human (Merchant)
STR 18 ->19 (5th) ->20 (10th) ->21 (15th) ->22 (20th)
DEX 12 ->14 (20th)
CON 12 ->14 (5th) ->16 (10th) ->18 [ooc](15th)
INT 10 ->12 (20th)
WIS 10 ->12 (5th) ->14 (10th) ->16 (15th) ->18 [ooc](20th)
CHA 16 ->18 (5th) ->19 [ooc](10th) ->20 (15th)

[1] Hospice Knight, Natural Ambition (Warded Touch)
[2] Divine Grace [Fighter Dedication seems better]
[4] Deity's Domain (Zeal- Weapon Surge) [Double Slice seems better]
[6] Blade of Justice
[8] Advanced Domain (literally just for the 3 spell points unless you wanna share initiatives) [unless you want another fighter feat here, like Twin Parry for AC, or the Dedication feat that buys extra HP, you could also pick up Weapon Surge here]
[10] Radiant Blade Spirit (choose Holy)
[12] Aura of Faith
[14] Litany of Righteousness [or whatever else, LoR isn't very good because of the action cost and duration unless you really think you can get in a Retributive Strike that turn]
[16] Instrument of Zeal
[18] Angelic Form
[20] Radiant Blade Master (choose Keen)

Turns out, you can't exactly stack cavalier challenge with Blade of justice if you plan on attacking multiple times. You can do this with Double Slice by picking it up through fighter dedication and have pretty good damage, you just have to burn a feat on fighter dedication which might not be worth it (it is tho if you want double slice). As a human, you may be able to take Natural Ambition more than once, but I haven't found language that allows this.

These seem like the two best viable combat builds for a paladin that doesn't focus on Retributive Strike. Actually, there really isn't much I'm finding to improve upon Retributive strike...

Hopefully, your Bargain Hunter feat will open some doors to finding key important items for you like the Doubling Rings, which ensure you only need to invest into one weapon. You'll need to pick a weapon group that has an agile and a one-hander, the obvious standout to me for this is the longsword/short sword combo, but you might get more out of a rapier on crits.

Full round: [A] Blade of Justice; [AA] Double Slice +33 (7d8+6 S +1d6+8 good) +33 (7d6+6 +d6+8 good) both are likely to hit since their both at full attack bonus so your damage looks like: (7d8+7d6+12 +2d6+16 good)

Once you amp up your good damage with feats and Instrument of Zeal you get decent output in 2d6+16 good damage from a single action.

When it comes to combat, The best looking builds I can see involve either multiclassing into fighter to grab Double Slice, but I was also looking at Channel Smite from cleric and thinking about what feats to build into to buy myself extra spell points to get some damage funneled into it to see if I could come up with anything similar to PF1's paladin. The build generally isn't done until 14th, when Litany of Righteousness comes online, and before that you pick up a few feats to boost up your good damage and grant access to Heal.

Turns out, it's worded so that this is impossible, seemingly on purpose as you must have a channel energy pool, not just a spell point pool and the ability to cast Heal with it.

I just don't see how to make this build work yet, the best I got is to go Cavalier and use Challenge and Blade of Justice together, skipping Litany of Righteousness since it is really unreliable. I also don't see a way to use Vengeful Oath because you can't use it through a weapon. You'll want Aura of Faith for the 1 free damage, and probably Radiant Blade Spirit for Holy. At 16th you also get Instrument of zeal for an extra die of damage when you use Blade of Justice. This way, you can still make two attacks, after spending the action for Blade of Justice (Challenge doesn't cost an action), and those attacks both get +1d6+ (n=number of damage dice)+ 1 good +n damage. If you go through all the hoops to get the most damage dice possible, you'll have a +5 weapon that does (7dx+STR + 1d6+8 good +7 conditional) Holy doesn't work with Retributive Strike unless you have extra reactions, but if you do get that going you can do persistent CHA for damage.

Spell Storing Weapons can hold a single Lay on Hands of up to 3rd level, so with Hospice Knight and Vengeful Oath you can add in an extra 5d6+CHA, but this stops working when your Lay on Hands auto-heightens past being a 3rd level spell, unless it doesn't. Can't find the rules on that exactly since I know you can spend extra spell points on some powers to heighten them, but cantrips scale automatically?

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I'd prefer the base class to be a generic Knight/Sentinel class and the paladin LG stuff be an archetype that costs feats to create and lets you get all the goodies with feats, smite evil doesn't even exist anymore and the replacements for it are underwhelming...

Plus, most of the class features in old editions from what I remember seemed over powered because they had the alignment baggage as a balancing factor, with the baggage coming on two axes instead of one. This meant abilities could be a little stronger without fear of the player becoming abusive of them. The current build does not perform stronger than the other classes on most scales.

It's a dark day when we see good turn on good.

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My player gave up on trying to make one today, turns out there is not a reliable way to actually generate damage on this class. It takes 4 feats and isn't done until level 14. The payoff? 1d6 plus (n=number of dice) +5. To do this one must spend an action to activate Blade of Justice, another to spend a spell point and activate Litany of Righteousness, then with the other two feats that improve your good damage you get to add all this amazing damage to one single attack. I'm better off just attacking twice, by a lot.

This is really bad.

If you timed it right, you can add your cha to damage as persistent damage, and if you time your hit right you'll get the extra 5 damage from weakness. Once.

All this needs to be scrapped, give me a single action, designate target, add Cha as good damage till the end of the turn. Smite f***ing evil. That's a class feature. Retributive strike can be a feat.

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Years from now, I will reference these paladin wars, where we saw good turn on good over who deserved to call themselves the true paladins. Whatever happens to whichever side gets their way in the final book, I shall never forget thee and they valiant effort to earn your rights to exist in this crazy world in the manner that best fit your honor. S!$* got crazy, yo.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
So are the spells listed in the blog spells, or are they spells?


master_marshmallow wrote:
How are spells different from spells?

Some cost spell points, others use spell slots.

master_marshmallow wrote:
Do the spells function just like spells, but with a different pool to draw them from, or are these spells different in other ways?
They aren't different in any other way. That's explicitly, by the word of people from Paizo, one of the main reasons they made the non spell-slot ones spells.

But which spells are these and how do I tell them apart?

Would it be safe to assume that the spells for partial casters all got changed to the new spells that take points instead of slots?

Lay on Hands is now one of these, is Divine Grace tied to the same pool?

What does smite do?

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How does the healing for Lay on Hands work/scale? By what metric does it increase the recipient's AC?

Does Divine Grace have to be declared before or after you roll your saving throw? How many times can you use it? Is it linked to Spell Points? How does it boost your saves? Is it CHA based, level based, or just a number that you picked?

How does Retributive Strike work? Do I have to be adjacent to the ally that got hit? Does my ally getting hit have to be in line of sight? Do I have to be threatening the enemy in order to use this reaction? Does it cost spell points? What is the enfeeble condition like in the new edition? If I use multiple retributive strikes, does the condition worsen?

How does Smite work? Is it limited per day? Does my target have to be evil? Does it add dice or a flat number?

What are the benefits of having legendary armor/shield proficiency over master? Does this include movement speed?

Litanies are teased as spells, but are they spells proper like with slots or do they take up spell points like other things? Do you even get spell points?

I remain disappoint.

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Remember when we were promised an alignment free templar class in the APG? Good times.

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Not to be that guy, but wouldn't a more generic "KNIGHT" class not only give you the framework to have multiple codes be elective, free of alignment, and give you a way to incorporate Hellknights and Blackguards into the core rules on the same chassis?

I think the way Cavaliers did codes, edicts, and orders were much more well done.

In fact, I'd rather see a better version of the cavalier with Divine Grace and Lay on Hands incorporated that made more sense to be the "armor" class.

I'm okay with paladins having baggage, but not if a major gameplay niche is cut off to anyone who doesn't want that baggage.

Still I criticize the blog for focusing too much on this topic, and not giving us enough crunch with respect to how the class actually plays. Smite was mentioned, but is it "Smite Evil" or a more generic ability, like the vindictive bastard or cavalier?
Does divine grace cost spell points?
Does lay on Hands?
Do they get a pool separately for them like the cleric gets to channel?

I remain disappoint.

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If Divine Grace gets nerfed to the ground, then the alignment should be "any good."
Divine Grace made the alignment restriction worth it.

All I see here is nerfs from PF1, way too much time spent arbitrarily hyping up a code that has changed very little, and a bunch of forum goers arguing over semantics.

I remain disappoint.

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While I am glad this avatar still has some miles left in it, I am not sure I feel they delivered on the notion of making playing paladins easier. The code is still pretty much the same, but now you can use poisons, which ime never happened anyway. So overall my experience will not change there, or in any such way. I'm glad I'm not the first to point out how much of this blog post is dedicated specifically to the code of conduct and that we really don't have a good picture of how the class plays or works, we just get some ability name drops because most of the blog is about dealing with code of conduct stuff.

I'm not even against the paladin being really good at armor, but if it's the class that's all about it, then I really REALLY feel like it needs to be changed to be open to more alignments.

I don;t want to babble on about the alignment thing, but when the blog spends so much time on it you kinda figure that's what they want us to talk about, unless the class is really dry and the alignment stuff is all it really has (I hope not).

"Tanking" was never really possible in PF1 without some really niche feats or spells to draw enemies to attack you, Antagonize and Call Out come to mind. As a DM, if I see someone pumping up their AC, that person gets avoided in favor of enemies I can actually hit to reduce the numbers of my foes, so unless there's a mechanical incentive to actually go after the paladin instead of the allies, then I feel like this class will not be played the way it seems to be intended. I also hate AGGRO being a mechanic.

We have no idea if this class gets actual spellcasting, so we either suspect that it doesn't because you didn't tell us (in which case we get slammed because "we just don't know yet") or we try and speculate on what the class does get, in which case we get slammed for the same reason.

As far as these blogs go, I am not excited to discuss this class, because all we seem to be looking to get is alignment arguments from it, however given the alias I feel I am morally obligated to participate in this week of upcoming insanity.

Do we even know how smite evil works? We know how domains work, how channeling works, how weapon proficiency works, and how sneak attack works.

This blog lacks, big time. I am disappoint.

And I was almost afraid we wouldn't need these threads anymore! HA!

I would not recommend Quicken Rods of any sort, as it will cost you actions to get it out, and then to put it away again taxing you the exact actions you intended to save in combat. Most of your best in combat spells are swift actions anyway. If going rods, go for Extend or Echoing.

Quick Runner's Shirt was a pretty good idea, once per day.

I like the Luckstone as well.

Do you have Oath of Vengeance? If so the Bracers of the Merciful Knight are the right item to carry, but if you don't, I'd say pick up the Silver Smite Bracelet, since it should net you another smite as well as higher damage, whereas the Bracers with the oath gives you two more potential smites, at your current level. Mo' smites, less problems.

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In the first thread I made hint that if they fix the paladin class then we wouldn't need another paladin thread.

They ran with it.

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C'mon guys, there aren't enough available characters to change my name to Overworked-Paladin_Knight_marshmallow!

Remember Divine Protection in the original ACG?

Just look at us now hahahaha.

Such snark must be smitten.
Tiers are not part of the official game.

Let's not forget, the warpriest was the second attempt at creating an alignment free clerical warrior type class. The cavalier was a result of the first.

I think we can reasonably expect these classes combined into one super class whose variable choices define the flavor but whose mechanics are so similar there is no point to have separate classes.

Future releases could see samurai, etc, included as more variable options on this chassis.

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In the first thread Jason told us to cool down and that there's already an entire blog post planned to break down all the new rules and ways they've handled the paladin.

Chill out people.
Diplomacy: 1d20 + 18 ⇒ (1) + 18 = 19

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Umm, honestly?

We even got a dev involved, what an amazing 1E thread.

Don't think I won't hold ever paladin thread we have from now on to these same standards.

Assuming Jason lets us have them....

Well, gonna be a long night.
tosses gauntlet

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Demon Lord of Tribbles wrote:
Paladin_Knight_marshmallow wrote:



Commence smiting of the BADWRONGFUN!!!!!

Badwrongfun you say? Humm, Yes I believe I shall.

I don't remember adding you to my list of nemeses!?!?


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Commence smiting of the BADWRONGFUN!!!!!

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So like, if Lancelot hadn't gone and done the Lancelot sh*t and fallen then this thread wouldn't exist because I'm pretty sure he's the baseline for how the class was written.

The idea is you have a class whose power comes from ideology, and the narrative device and theme of the character is that they could lose this power.

I'm open to all alignments being enforced through specific codes to function as archetypes included in the core book. Solves everything and gives everyone what they want.

Still a fine show for our first paladin thread.
Presumably first and not only..... o.0

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PT.B=The Devil wrote:
Paladin_Knight_marshmallow wrote:


drink it in.

Definitely getting to be a worthy first paladin thread.
Ans here I was worried there wouldn't be enough fireworks for it to be worth it.

Next up, stat generation methods :)

MADness be damned, old friend.

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drink it in.

Definitely getting to be a worthy first paladin thread.
Ans here I was worried there wouldn't be enough fireworks for it to be worth it.

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I think we could expect to see cavalier and paladin merged into one class, and to have different orders function like different archetypes that will have different alignments attached to them/encouraged.

Also, I believe this marks the very first 2.0 paladin thread.


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This thread disappoints me.

Code of Conduct wrote:

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Definition of the word Willingly wrote:


readily; of one's own free will.

If you are committing an evil act because of a sadistic choice, you are not doing so willingly.

If you are not aware of some suberfugey bullsh*t your DM is pulling to trick you into doing something evil, then you are not doing so willingly.

Do you have any more stupid questions?

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master_marshmallow wrote:

2 factors- 1) the fear of bad DMs forcing sadistic choices, & 2) a polarizing binary view of the alignment system which must punish all mistakes and completely subsides the context of any decision (which ironically is specifically called out in the rules)

The paladin code was quoted earlier in saying that a paladin can align with Evil or Chaotic characters, so long as there is a greater threat afoot. According to GNS theory, any narrative which includes a PC playing a paladin should facilitate this and this line of the code is more or less meant to be delegated to NPCs. At least that's how I GM.

Conversely, if we look at the Antipaladin code we then realize that the alignment system fully recognizes the intent of the player's choices and thus any sadistic choice forced upon the paladin should by definition never preclude a fall. Ever. It's in the rules, though it requires some anglicitical math to extrapolate.

I stand correct.

Everyone likes to bash on paladins, until you need someone to do paladin sh*t.

It depends on the classes and how they are worded.

If there is no language in one of the classes that stats that it stacks, then it does not stack and you will have two separate pools of the Lay on Hands ability, functioning at their respective class levels.

HeHateMe wrote:
Tyinyk wrote:

Chaotic Evil, and the Antipaladin code don't have to be played "Stupid Evil." In the hands of a competent Roleplayer, it's playable just fine.

Alternately, you may be able to convince your DM to loosen the code/alignment restrictions a bit.

Alternately again, you can play a Tyrant or Insinuator Antipaladin, which change the alignment and code, respectively.

Sorry, I should've been more specific. It's not just the Antipaladin code that's stupid evil, it's their class abilities. Detect Good? Smite Good? When is any of this going to be useful?

Paizo classes have trouble with "shades of grey", everything seems to be either good or evil. Why isn't there a non-evil necromancer? Why isn't there a dark knight type of character that isn't all "stupid evil"? Why can't there be a magical knight type of character that isn't "awful good"?

Personally I despise alignment. So many classes get ruined because of alignment restrictions.

You think in extremes dude. The antipaladin code says you can do things that could be considered good, if they aid your overall cause, or something to that degree. It's more or less the sentence that grants leeway for role playing purposes. It also puts intent into hard rules for the game, that is to mean a player's intent has just as much significance as the action itself, as far as the alignment system is concerned.

Also, no one mentioned Slayers or Vigilantes... or Gunslingers or Brawlers... I personally feel Cavaliers are underrated, especially considering the shades of grey comments above.

Everyone wants to be a paladin, until it's time to do paladin sh*t!!!

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