To those Paladins left behind... So long, until we see each other down the road...


Classes


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Well, the day I feared came to pass and with it went my final connection to the life I once had, with that I say my farewells and prepare to head out.

To those who got that which they wanted, I'm happy for you.

For me though, that was it.

So with that said, I leave the rest to you.

The Paladin is yours now.

I'll pop in to see how things go, but the appeal is gone and the spark has faded.

Be safe guys, stay well, I wish you good fortune.


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Well, you may want to know the plan DOES seem to be for only the LG version to be called Paladin in the final book. They just don't want to have to errata the bazillion times the word Paladin appears in the playtest document so it's Any Good for now. But the final class will be called something else, with a LG Paladin subclass.

Lantern Lodge

That was...remarkably non-inflamatory. Sorry that this issue was a deal breaker for you, it always seemed to get people on both sides fired up. Hope when you check back in you find something worth continuing to play.


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Well, I know for a fact people in the last edition house-ruled Paladins to be open to any alignment (or a non-singular subset of thus). So what's keeping anybody from house-ruling out all but one Paladin alignment?

Fundamentally what I cared about is the name. Per Mark the name of the CG, NG, etc. ones is not going to be "Paladin" and probably will not be "[Foo] Paladin" so if we just have the Paladin be "the LG version of a thing of which there are other versions" that's fine with me. I mean, the antipaladin's been around for a while.


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Fuzzypaws wrote:
Well, you may want to know the plan DOES seem to be for only the LG version to be called Paladin in the final book. They just don't want to have to errata the bazillion times the word Paladin appears in the playtest document so it's Any Good for now. But the final class will be called something else, with a LG Paladin subclass.

Unfortunately that really isn't good enough. The Paladin under those rules is just a class with a name. It's no longer special. A lot of us felt that way, and a lot of us felt like this was a line in the sand.

For me it was.

Regardless, I'm sure Paizo will do fine without us. I imagine we were a minority of players. We'll just find something else to play. It'll be ok.


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DragoonSpirits86 wrote:
That was...remarkably non-inflamatory. Sorry that this issue was a deal breaker for you, it always seemed to get people on both sides fired up. Hope when you check back in you find something worth continuing to play.

Nah.

I gave PF2 my all. Everything I had. I pushed and pushed. I was running playtests around the clock, but this issue was super important to me.

There's no need to be inflammatory, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

Paizo ran the numbers and decided that those who would leave over this weren't necessary for their market share and/or decided that keeping them LG only would lose too many others.

I mean... Am I angry? Sure. Absolutely furious. Though screaming at the people who won? Eh, it's not going to accomplish anything. The choice was made.

In the end... It is one game.

I'll find something else.

Barring that, heck, I'm a professional designer... I'll make something else.

But for now I don't see any way I can contribute to further testing of PF2. I'm morally opposed to this change. I have been up front from day 1 that this was my line in the sand.

Some people thought that was a threat, it never was, it was just the truth.

For now I'll play some M&M, get my superhero on, and enjoy that.


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I don't know why I'm so surprised people dedicated to Paladin are dying on a seemingly arbitrary hill because they refuse to compromise but hey, we're here now.

Did I miss a substantial balance change that turned them into clerics or fighters (took away their magic hands or weapons)?


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Kerx wrote:

I don't know why I'm so surprised people dedicated to Paladin are dying on a seemingly arbitrary hill because they refuse to compromise but hey, we're here now.

Did I miss a substantial balance change that turned them into clerics or fighters (took away their magic hands or weapons)?

It's not about the weapons, or the powers, or what you can do with it, or even just the name.

It was the idea of this person, a rare person, with a soul aligned with specific energies that was empowered by them to right wrongs and triumph over evil.

When you allow anyone to access it, even anyone good, it cheapens the rarity.


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To HWalsh:
May the Paladin you wish to play be out there somewhere, with hopes that PF2 will eventually make that Paladin. If it is to be the case may that future for when you come back be a bright one, and should that future never come, and you find your Paladin in another game and in another table, may it be with steadfast allies and stories of glory.


Siro wrote:

To HWalsh:

May the Paladin you wish to play be out there somewhere, with hopes that PF2 will eventually make that Paladin. If it is to be the case may that future for when you come back be a bright one, and should that future never come, and you find your Paladin in another game and in another table, may it be with steadfast allies and stories of glory.

Much appreciated. I'll find my game out there. Be safe.


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HWalsh wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
Well, you may want to know the plan DOES seem to be for only the LG version to be called Paladin in the final book. They just don't want to have to errata the bazillion times the word Paladin appears in the playtest document so it's Any Good for now. But the final class will be called something else, with a LG Paladin subclass.

Unfortunately that really isn't good enough. The Paladin under those rules is just a class with a name. It's no longer special. A lot of us felt that way, and a lot of us felt like this was a line in the sand.

For me it was.

Regardless, I'm sure Paizo will do fine without us. I imagine we were a minority of players. We'll just find something else to play. It'll be ok.

I mean, you haven't seen the 1.6 or final CRB Paladin yet. For all you know it could still have the iconic and rare powers that apparently make your idea of a Paladin while the other Champion (or whatever the final class name is) types go entirely different directions.

It just seems really premature to jump ship when there's still an LG-only character build called a Paladin with as-yet-unknown specifications just because there are now other alignment-specific warriors as well.

Now if the CRB comes along and it turns out Paladin is just a minorly different subclass of champion in the same vein of Bard Muses that's an entirely different thing. I can't judge you for how important this is or isn't to you whether I feel the same or not, but jumping like this without seeing the end product just seems premature.


Kerx wrote:
I don't know why I'm so surprised people dedicated to Paladin are dying on a seemingly arbitrary hill because they refuse to compromise but hey, we're here now.

Why can’t they just go with the flow.


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No one said you had to play pathfinder in Golarion or use the other paladins. You can anyways just not, that's the beauty of tabletop.


Kerx wrote:
No one said you had to pay pathfinder in Golarion or use the other paladins. You can anyways just not, that's the beauty of tabletop.

I can also find something else to play. No offense to the devs at Paizo, theyre doing what they feel is best, but changing this, to me, shows that we aren't on the same page. I just, dont feel confident now. It's all good.


What about just sticking with 1E PF?


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HWalsh wrote:
To those who got that which they wanted, I'm happy for you.

Well, I wouldn't say I got what I wanted. For the paladin, or any other class, I'd like to see alignment removed. For other aspects, things like bulk and the general coin flip rolls are making it seem less and less likely that I'll be hopping on the PF2 train either.

Out of all the 'victories' I could have 'won' on how the playtest works, paladins were at the very, very bottom of the list. I went through all of pathfinder only playing a paladin in one shots/testing, so it wouldn't have bothered me much if I had to write it off in PF2 too.


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GAH! of course you would be one of the people to throw around the "coin flip roll" slogan. :P:P:P:P:P:P:P

Also Grey I think when someone says happy for people that got what they want they mean "the people that got what they want" So since you didn't I don't think that applies to you so HA! XD


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This seems... A bit over the top.

1. The other alignment versions will have different class names. Why is it an "I cannot stand to play this game" moment just because there happens to be three similar classes when only your favorite one will still be called Paladin: "The long term plan is for the LG version to be called the paladin, not the others." - Mark Seifter
2, If you actually like the game, this is an extremely easy houserule to disallow all non-LG paladinish classes. One wave of your hand and boom! All paladins are LG. Comparatively, It's much, much harder for everybody else to add non-LG paladinish rules. So, the devs gave EVERYBODY the perfect solution: "Here's all the hard stuff, making up entire classes with [hopefully] fun, balanced, and unique rules based on alignment. Use them if you want to, or houserule them out of existence."
3. Ultimately, falling on your own sword over a few words in a million-word rulebook just doesn't add up.

But either way, have fun.

Oh, and CIHYS?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You Americans are weird peoples.


Gorbacz wrote:
You Americans are weird peoples.

<Disclaimer there is actually no joke in this post which I know is odd since its a HHOH post please forgive>

Oh that's right your like polish or something right?

<Oh alright *knock knock*>


Edge93 wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
Well, you may want to know the plan DOES seem to be for only the LG version to be called Paladin in the final book. They just don't want to have to errata the bazillion times the word Paladin appears in the playtest document so it's Any Good for now. But the final class will be called something else, with a LG Paladin subclass.

Unfortunately that really isn't good enough. The Paladin under those rules is just a class with a name. It's no longer special. A lot of us felt that way, and a lot of us felt like this was a line in the sand.

For me it was.

Regardless, I'm sure Paizo will do fine without us. I imagine we were a minority of players. We'll just find something else to play. It'll be ok.

I mean, you haven't seen the 1.6 or final CRB Paladin yet. For all you know it could still have the iconic and rare powers that apparently make your idea of a Paladin while the other Champion (or whatever the final class name is) types go entirely different directions.

It just seems really premature to jump ship when there's still an LG-only character build called a Paladin with as-yet-unknown specifications just because there are now other alignment-specific warriors as well.

Now if the CRB comes along and it turns out Paladin is just a minorly different subclass of champion in the same vein of Bard Muses that's an entirely different thing. I can't judge you for how important this is or isn't to you whether I feel the same or not, but jumping like this without seeing the end product just seems premature.

With the way they seem to be talking that seems exceedingly unlikely. They seem to have made the calculation that they are willing to lose people over this. They also rather pointedly didn’t say anything about the subclasses being significantly different which you would think if they were they might have led with as it might assuage the people that are being cut out of the will so to speak. The fact that no mention is made of something like this seems fairly akin to confirmation.


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Lelomenia wrote:
Why can’t they just go with the flow.

Do Paladins go with the flow? No! They find a hill and they die upon it! Willingness to die for a seemingly trivial principle is what separates the Lawful Goods from the Chaotic Goods.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Lelomenia wrote:
Why can’t they just go with the flow.
Do Paladins go with the flow? No! They find a hill and they die upon it! Willingness to die for a seemingly trivial principle is what separates the Lawful Goods from the Chaotic Goods.

... I'm not even sure on this one.


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DM_Blake wrote:

This seems... A bit over the top.

1. The other alignment versions will have different class names. Why is it an "I cannot stand to play this game" moment just because there happens to be three similar classes when only your favorite one will still be called Paladin: "The long term plan is for the LG version to be called the paladin, not the others." - Mark Seifter

I have said since day one that this was the line. I wasn't kidding.

I like Mark he is a good guy, but the name is by far not enough. There needs to be significant, and I mean extreme dramatically significant, differences for this to potentially salvage me.

Quote:
2, If you actually like the game, this is an extremely easy houserule to disallow all non-LG paladinish classes. One wave of your hand and boom! All paladins are LG. Comparatively, It's much, much harder for everybody else to add non-LG paladinish rules. So, the devs gave EVERYBODY the perfect solution: "Here's all the hard stuff, making up entire classes with [hopefully] fun, balanced, and unique rules based on alignment. Use them if you want to, or houserule them out of existence."

Three letters.

P. F. S.

I can't house rule things.

Quote:

3. Ultimately, falling on your own sword over a few words in a million-word rulebook just doesn't add up.

But either way, have fun.

Oh, and CIHYS?

There isn't much to give. I doubt I can give you the 75+ PF PDFs I have.


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Arssanguinus wrote:


With the way they seem to be talking that seems exceedingly unlikely. They seem to have made the calculation that they are willing to lose people over this. They also rather pointedly didn’t say anything about the subclasses being significantly different which you would think if they were they might have led with as it might assuage the people that are being cut out of the will so to speak. The fact that no mention...

They started making that calculation the moment they decided to do a new edition, given that their were folks who already pledged to never buy a Paizo product again if even a SLIGHTLY ERRATA'D version of Pathfinder 1E was released as a new edition. Every single change they have made, even popular ones like the 3 action economy, has been a redline for some players and a reason not to pursue the new edition.

Any decision on Paladin, or bringing down the power level of spells, and so on, will turn off some segment of the fanbase. It's a no win situation, in that you either stick with the current editions and slowly lose customers through attrition, or you make a bolder play that potentially brings in/back more customers, but may alienate existing ones.


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Erm, do note that the Paladin change looks to be coming at the same time as class paths, and seems likely to be mixed together (the path you pick determining the alignment restrictions). At this point, I'd be surprised if these paths don't also have unique mechanics to differentiate themselves beyond just alignment and code. Will this be enough to keep the LG Paladin "unique" enough for you? No one can tell because we don't know the details yet.

So be happy or dismayed about the possibilities of the announcement all you like, but it's a bit early for melodramatic talk when none of us know exactly how this is going to play out on Monday when the update is released. I assume you didn't immediately quit PF1 when Antipaladins or Grey Paladins came along, and for all we know this change will shunt most of the Paladin-ness to LG and leave the others drastically inferior in every way (I personally hope not, but it's still possible).

Not to mention - this is still a Playtest. Things can and will change between now and the official release. Despite being opinionated about which side I'm on myself, I have players who are on both sides of the Paladin issue, and I've encouraged both of them to contribute and be vocal in the surveys. Because that's how things are going to end up changing one way or the other, and you can't expect anything to go your way if you leave before being able to contribute to the reaction about this change.


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The war of good vs good is over, it was hard fought, but in the end neither of us will be here.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Well, I know for a fact people in the last edition house-ruled Paladins to be open to any alignment (or a non-singular subset of thus). So what's keeping anybody from house-ruling out all but one Paladin alignment?

As an interesting observation, 1e Paladins and Antipaladins have fundamentally the same chassis, where even the auras have similar, if opposite effects, while some class features, like divine grace/fiendish resilience are exactly the same mechanically. Additionally, the only difference between Antipaladins and Tyrants is the code of conduct. So in light of how easy it is to make champions of 3/4 extremes, it seems odd, in a way, for CG to have no champions.

graystone wrote:
For the paladin, or any other class, I'd like to see alignment removed.

Part of the problem is that the 2e paladin, IMO, feels weakly connected to the name. Sure, it has the name and code, but it reads more like an armor master in contrast to the fighter being a weapons master. So under that view, it seems odd that it would be the last class to specify any alignment. Renaming the Guardian (or whatever they're calling it), opening it up to other alignments, and saying that LG Guardians are called Paladins (and potentially even that CE Guardians are Antipaladins and LE Guardians are Tyrants) seems like a compromise.

Matthew Downie wrote:
Lelomenia wrote:
Why can’t they just go with the flow.
Do Paladins go with the flow? No! They find a hill and they die upon it! Willingness to die for a seemingly trivial principle is what separates the Lawful Goods from the Chaotic Goods.

But is it? It sounds sarcastic, but it's a real question. I think part of the reason only-LG paladins are becoming less popular is that the nine alignments are extremely poorly defined, so it seems odd to people to restrict the class to just one type of goodness. For example, is the police officer that lets you off with a warning for speeding because you were on the way to the hospital where your wife is giving birth LG or NG? Or aeons. Sure, Paizo claims they're True Neutral outsiders, in the same way that devils/daemons/demons are LE/NE/CE. But their behavior seems fairly LN to me.

Black Stars Beckon spoilers:

Especially the one at the end of Strange Aeons, who's only concerned with the fact that you're using time travel, and not that you're using it to stop a great old one from waking


As an example of codes not necessarily being lawful anymore, cavaliers are basically non-magic paladins of any alignment. And of rebelling not being inherently chaotic, ronin cavaliers and samurai are similarly unrestricted.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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Sorry this issue is a dealbreaker for some. We hope you will continue to see what the new version of the game has to offer.

I feel that folks have said their piece, and it is not the place for folks on these boards to argue with them or convince them otherwise.

This thread is locked.

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