Paladin Builds (Theorycrafting)


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Looking at some Paladin Builds for efficiency
(That can be used to test things at a moderate-high level of optimization, which usually the Pregens don't have.)

So I am making a suit of Paladins for the Playtest Rules:

Paladin Level 1:

Human Paladin, Lawful Good
Level: 1

HP: 18
Size: Medium
Move: 25 (20 in Armor)

AC: 15 (17 Shield) TAC: 13 (15 Shield)

Ability Scores
Str 18
Dex 12
Con 10
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 16

Ability Boosts:
Human Ability Boosts: Str, Cha
Background Ability Boosts: Cha, Str
Free Ability Boosts (4): Str, Cha, Dex, Wis
Class Ability Boost: Str

Languages: Common, Celestial

Traits:
Human, Humanoid

Background:
Noble

Feats:
Human Ancestry Feat: General Training: Cultural Familiarity (Human)
Background: Warrior: Quick Repair

Perception: (Trained)

Saves:
Fortitude (Expert) +2
Reflex (Trained) +0
Will (Expert) +2

Skills: (4+)
Warfare Lore Skill (Trained) (Int) +1
Medicine (Trained) (Wis) +1
*Athletics (Trained) (Str) +5
*Religion (Trained) (Wis) +2
*Diplomacy (Trained) (Cha) +4
*Craft (Trained) (Int) +1

Weapons:
Trained in all Simple and Martial

Armor:
Trained in all Armor and Shields

Signature Skills:
Athletics
Crafting
Diplomacy
Religion
*Medicine

Champion Powers:
Lay on Hands (1d6+3) (1 Spell Point)

Special Abilities:
Deific Weapon: Longsword
Retributive Strike

Class Feats:
Hospice Knight (Medicine is a Signature and trained, D6 healing)

Bulk: 9
Currency: 18 SP 2 CP

Equipment:

Weapons: (13 SP) (Bulk 1.3)
Longsword 10 SP (1d8 Slash, 1 bulk, 1 hand, Versatile P)
Javeline (3) 3 SP (1d6 P, 30 ft, Bulk L)

Armor: (80 SP) (Bulk 2)
Breastplate 80 SP (+4 AC, +2 TAC, +3 Dex, -4 Check, -5ft, Bulk 2, Clumsy)

Shield: (20 SP) (Bulk 1)
Heavy Steel Shield 20 SP (+2 AC, +2 TAC, -1 Check, Bulk 1)

Gear: (18 SP, 8 CP) (2 Bulk, 10 L Bulk)
Backpack (1 SP, 0 Bulk)
Basic Crafter's Book (1 SP, L Bulk, 2 Hands)
Belt Pouch (4 CP, 0 Bulk)
Climbing Kit (5 SP, 1 Bulk, 2 Hands)
Clothing (Ordinary) (1 SP)
Clothing (Winter) (4 SP)
Rations 5day (2.5 SP) (5 L Bulk)
Oil (5) (5 CP)
Rope 50 ft Hemp (1 SP, 1 Bulk)
Wooden Holy Symbol (1 SP, 1 L Bulk)
Bedroll (1 CP, 1 L)
Pup Tent (8 CP, 1 L Bulk)
Waterskin (5 CP, 1 L Bulk)

Bulk: 7.3

-----

Offense:
Longsword +5 (1d8+4 Slash, Versatile P)
Javeline +2 (1d6 Pierce)

-----

Reasons for things:
The Paladin here has a shield, but is more or less a single longsword, open hand, has the shield to jump AC if they are low on LoH. Good for using Retributive Strike with a low AC to draw attacks toward them.

In the future it plans on being able to use the shield and the full use of LoH.


Level 5 Variant:

Human Paladin, Lawful Good
Level: 5

HP: 64
Size: Medium
Move: 30 (20 in Armor)

AC: 22 (24 Shield) TAC: 18 (20 Shield)

Ability Scores
Str 19
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 18

Ability Boosts:
Human Ability Boosts: Str, Cha
Level 5 Ability Boosts: Str, Cha, Con, Wis
Background Ability Boosts: Cha, Str
Free Ability Boosts (4): Str, Cha, Dex, Wis
Class Ability Boost: Str

Languages: Common, Celestial

Traits:
Human, Humanoid

Background:
Noble

Feats:
Human Ancestry Feat: General Training: Cultural Familiarity (Human)
Human Ancestry Feat: General Training: Toughness

Background: Warrior: Quick Repair

General Feats:
General Feat (level 3): Fleet

Skill Feats:
Skill Feat (level 2): Hobnobber
Skill Feat (level 4): Glad-Hand

Perception: (Trained)

Saves: (With magic armor)
Fortitude (Expert) +9
Reflex (Trained) +7
Will (Expert) +10

Skills: (4+)
Warfare Lore Skill (Trained) (Int) +6
Medicine (Trained) (Wis) +6
*Athletics (Trained) (Str) +9
*Religion (Trained) (Wis) +6
*Diplomacy (Expert) (Cha) +11 (+12 with Humans)
*Craft (Expert) (Int) +8

Skill Raises:
Diplomacy (3)
Craft (5)

Weapons:
Trained in all Simple and Martial

Armor:
Trained in all Armor and Shields

Signature Skills:
Athletics
Crafting
Diplomacy
Religion
*Medicine

Spell Points: 5

Champion Powers:
Lay on Hands (3d6+4) (1 Spell Point)

Special Abilities:
Deific Weapon: Longsword
Retributive Strike
Righteous Ally (Blade Ally)
Weapon Expertise (Longsword)

Class Feats:
Level 1: Hospice Knight (Medicine is a Signature and trained, D6 healing)
Level 2: Divine Grace
Level 4: Channel Life
Level 5: Warded Touch

Resonance: 9 base (8, 1 spent on weapon)

Bulk: 9
Currency: 48 GP 43 SP 2 CP

Equipment: (Still have and 2 1st level items)

Weapons: (3 SP) (Bulk 1.3)
Expert Longsword+1 (Level 4) Free SP (1d8 Slash, 1 bulk, 1 hand, Versatile P)
Javeline (3) 3 SP (1d6 P, 30 ft, Bulk L)

Armor: (300 SP (free)) (Bulk )
Expert Full Plate Free SP +6 AC, +2 TAC, +1 Dex, -5 Check -10 ft, Bulk 4 (level 3)

Shield: (Free) (Bulk 1)
Expert Heavy Steel Shield (+2 AC, +2 TAC, -1 Check, Bulk 1)

Gear: (18 SP, 8 CP) (2 Bulk, 10 L Bulk)
Backpack (1 SP, 0 Bulk)
Basic Crafter's Book (1 SP, L Bulk, 2 Hands)
Belt Pouch (4 CP, 0 Bulk)
Clothing (Ordinary) (1 SP)
Clothing (Winter) (4 SP)
Rations 5day (2.5 SP) (5 L Bulk)
Oil (5) (5 CP)
Rope 50 ft Hemp (1 SP, 1 Bulk)
Wooden Holy Symbol (1 SP, 1 L Bulk)
Bedroll (1 CP, 1 L)
Pup Tent (8 CP, 1 L Bulk)
Waterskin (5 CP, 1 L Bulk)

Bulk: 8.3

Offense:
Longsword+1 +12 (2d8+4)


I think the bastard sword is objectively better than the long sword. Does the same damage, and you can start combat with it in two hand mode.

IIRC you get 4 spell points. 1 base + 3 from charisma.

Warded touch might not be especially useful depending on how common attacks of opportunity are on monsters, since it isn't a default ability.


N-Sphere wrote:

I think the bastard sword is objectively better than the long sword. Does the same damage, and you can start combat with it in two hand mode.

IIRC you get 4 spell points. 1 base + 3 from charisma.

Warded touch might not be especially useful depending on how common attacks of opportunity are on monsters, since it isn't a default ability.

Nope - Paladins just get Charisma.

Warded Touch is so you can use Lay on Hands with a shield. If that is *not* the case it changes the build a little.

The longsword is due to Iomedae, but also for LoH. Changing weapon grip is an action, then LoH is an action.


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Lay on Hands is a somatic action.

Somatic actions require a free hand.

Warded touch removes the manipulate keyword from somatic action.

Attack of Opportunity triggers off actions with the manipulate keyword.

You can't use lay on hands without a free hand.

There is no mechanical benefit to using a long sword as a paladin of Iomedae.

Removing your hand from a weapon is apparently a free action for ~reasons~, while putting it back on the weapon isn't for ~reasons~.

Since you can't LoH with a shield, you can start combat in two handed mode for greatsword damage. Then when you need to LoH you can remove your hand from the weapon as a free action, perform your LoH, and the bastard sword switches to 1 hand mode and do identical damage to a long sword.

Paladin mechanics basically seem like a soup sandwich right now.


In putting together my own character, I ran into an issue with the dwarven paladin. That -2 to Charisma is killer. It will take 2 investments to correct it--picking a Background and some other thing to bring it up to a positive.

Bringing it up by 4 just gives that character a 12 in Charisma. That means 1 use of LoH per day. If you decide to up that d4 to a d6, then selecting that power option doesn't come with a +1 spell point.

This means if the player wanted LoH to be more useful, they'd be better off selecting any other feat than one related to LoH, just to bring that 1 use to a 2. That feels counter-intuitive.


I've also struggled with Dwarven Paladins, since you can't start with a Charisma more than 14, which locks your strength at 16 if you use your free ancestral bonus.

I guess Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Wis 12 Int 10 Cha 14 might be playable. Boost Str, Con, Cha, and any other thing you want at level 5 (dex 12 is sufficient for full plate, and you are a dwarf so you want the heaviest thing imaginable.)

Barring piercing being better than slashing, the Dwarven Waraxe is better than the bastard sword but I'm not sure if it is worth a feat or two, but sweep and the axe critical specialization work for "I am supposed to be standing in the middle of everybody."


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So something cool I've found about dwarf paladin's is multiclassing! Going cleric and getting a domain to get a spell pool that way causes them to combine and use the higher of the two stats, so now that should turn the cha paladin into a wis class right?


Do any of you think, based on this and other PCs you've practiced putting together, that decoupling Spell Points from attributes might help?

The reason that I'm asking is two-fold:
* To make an iconic concept like a dwarven paladin work, I'm going to need to do some real twisting around when it comes to initial creation choices, just because of that -2.
* They already removed bonus spells from attributes. Why not make spell points an initial number? Say, 3 base + 1 per Powers Feat chosen?


Chess Pwn wrote:
So something cool I've found about dwarf paladin's is multiclassing! Going cleric and getting a domain to get a spell pool that way causes them to combine and use the higher of the two stats, so now that should turn the cha paladin into a wis class right?

I *really* like this. I don't know how functional it is until level 4 when you gain a domain, but I think this should let you be a Dwarf Paladin with 8 charisma and a bunch of spell points- your DCs for Paladin stuff are based on strength anyway. Shame the Shield Cantrip goes away for 10 minutes after you use it to block though.


Ooh, could a Multiclass Dwarf Paladin of Torag who gains a Wis-Based power point pool also take "Basic Dogma" to take the level 1 cleric feat "Deadly Simplicity" to stack with Deific Weapon so your 1 handed warhammers are d12 weapons?


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Didn't Mark Seifter say Warded Touch actually lets you Lay on Hands with both hands occupied? (Sword + Shield). It was in the ENWorld pregens thread since people were confused about Seelah using this combination.


When it comes to combat, The best looking builds I can see involve either multiclassing into fighter to grab Double Slice, but I was also looking at Channel Smite from cleric and thinking about what feats to build into to buy myself extra spell points to get some damage funneled into it to see if I could come up with anything similar to PF1's paladin. The build generally isn't done until 14th, when Litany of Righteousness comes online, and before that you pick up a few feats to boost up your good damage and grant access to Heal.

Turns out, it's worded so that this is impossible, seemingly on purpose as you must have a channel energy pool, not just a spell point pool and the ability to cast Heal with it.

I just don't see how to make this build work yet, the best I got is to go Cavalier and use Challenge and Blade of Justice together, skipping Litany of Righteousness since it is really unreliable. I also don't see a way to use Vengeful Oath because you can't use it through a weapon. You'll want Aura of Faith for the 1 free damage, and probably Radiant Blade Spirit for Holy. At 16th you also get Instrument of zeal for an extra die of damage when you use Blade of Justice. This way, you can still make two attacks, after spending the action for Blade of Justice (Challenge doesn't cost an action), and those attacks both get +1d6+ (n=number of damage dice)+ 1 good +n damage. If you go through all the hoops to get the most damage dice possible, you'll have a +5 weapon that does (7dx+STR + 1d6+8 good +7 conditional) Holy doesn't work with Retributive Strike unless you have extra reactions, but if you do get that going you can do persistent CHA for damage.

Spell Storing Weapons can hold a single Lay on Hands of up to 3rd level, so with Hospice Knight and Vengeful Oath you can add in an extra 5d6+CHA, but this stops working when your Lay on Hands auto-heightens past being a 3rd level spell, unless it doesn't. Can't find the rules on that exactly since I know you can spend extra spell points on some powers to heighten them, but cantrips scale automatically?


sample build:

Human (Merchant)
STR 18 ->19 (5th) ->20 (10th) ->21 (15th) ->22 (20th)
DEX 12 ->14 (20th)
CON 12 ->14 (5th) ->16 (10th) ->18 [ooc](15th)
INT 10 ->12 (20th)
WIS 10 ->12 (5th) ->14 (10th) ->16 (15th) ->18 [ooc](20th)
CHA 16 ->18 (5th) ->19 [ooc](10th) ->20 (15th)

[1] Hospice Knight, Natural Ambition (Warded Touch)
[2] Divine Grace [Fighter Dedication seems better]
[4] Deity's Domain (Zeal- Weapon Surge) [Double Slice seems better]
[6] Blade of Justice
[8] Advanced Domain (literally just for the 3 spell points unless you wanna share initiatives) [unless you want another fighter feat here, like Twin Parry for AC, or the Dedication feat that buys extra HP, you could also pick up Weapon Surge here]
[10] Radiant Blade Spirit (choose Holy)
[12] Aura of Faith
[14] Litany of Righteousness [or whatever else, LoR isn't very good because of the action cost and duration unless you really think you can get in a Retributive Strike that turn]
[16] Instrument of Zeal
[18] Angelic Form
[20] Radiant Blade Master (choose Keen)

Turns out, you can't exactly stack cavalier challenge with Blade of justice if you plan on attacking multiple times. You can do this with Double Slice by picking it up through fighter dedication and have pretty good damage, you just have to burn a feat on fighter dedication which might not be worth it (it is tho if you want double slice). As a human, you may be able to take Natural Ambition more than once, but I haven't found language that allows this.

These seem like the two best viable combat builds for a paladin that doesn't focus on Retributive Strike. Actually, there really isn't much I'm finding to improve upon Retributive strike...

Hopefully, your Bargain Hunter feat will open some doors to finding key important items for you like the Doubling Rings, which ensure you only need to invest into one weapon. You'll need to pick a weapon group that has an agile and a one-hander, the obvious standout to me for this is the longsword/short sword combo, but you might get more out of a rapier on crits.

Full round: [A] Blade of Justice; [AA] Double Slice +33 (7d8+6 S +1d6+8 good) +33 (7d6+6 +d6+8 good) both are likely to hit since their both at full attack bonus so your damage looks like: (7d8+7d6+12 +2d6+16 good)

Once you amp up your good damage with feats and Instrument of Zeal you get decent output in 2d6+16 good damage from a single action.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I've also struggled with Dwarven Paladins, since you can't start with a Charisma more than 14, which locks your strength at 16 if you use your free ancestral bonus.

I guess Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Wis 12 Int 10 Cha 14 might be playable. Boost Str, Con, Cha, and any other thing you want at level 5 (dex 12 is sufficient for full plate, and you are a dwarf so you want the heaviest thing imaginable.)

Barring piercing being better than slashing, the Dwarven Waraxe is better than the bastard sword but I'm not sure if it is worth a feat or two, but sweep and the axe critical specialization work for "I am supposed to be standing in the middle of everybody."

I had fun with my Dwarven Paladin in a game yesterday. You should be able to get to 14 Charisma. I used my free Dwarven boost to counter the Cha flaw. Then I also boosted it with 1 of the 4 you get at the end. I used my background for Str and Con to get both to 16. I had 23 Hit points. And of course the one Lay on Hands I used I rolled a 1 on a d6, for 2 healing.

Also had fun with the poison resistance, taking 0 damage from it twice.
I rolled 1, 2, something low again, 17 and something low again on the saves.

I also helped another character get rid of their poison, because I had a healer's tools and medicine is signature and trained thanks to hospice knight.

Was good and fun all round. I am just sad that I didn't get to use Retribution Strike, the one time it might have applied, the monster missed.


Assuming the sorcerer dedication gives cantrips when it gets made, I think a great combo will be to take that in order to use the Shield cantrip, which lets you effectively have a light wooden shield whenever you need it, but also a free hand for lay on hands.


Paladin_Knight_marshmallow wrote:

sample build:

Human (Merchant)
STR 18 ->19 (5th) ->20 (10th) ->21 (15th) ->22 (20th)
DEX 12 ->14 (20th)
CON 12 ->14 (5th) ->16 (10th) ->18 [ooc](15th)
INT 10 ->12 (20th)
WIS 10 ->12 (5th) ->14 (10th) ->16 (15th) ->18 [ooc](20th)
CHA 16 ->18 (5th) ->19 [ooc](10th) ->20 (15th)

[1] Hospice Knight, Natural Ambition (Warded Touch)
[2] Divine Grace [Fighter Dedication seems better]
[4] Deity's Domain (Zeal- Weapon Surge) [Double Slice seems better]

If you use the Bastard Sword, would it be better to take Basic Maneuver to gain Power Attack?


magnaangemon01 wrote:
Paladin_Knight_marshmallow wrote:

sample build:

Human (Merchant)
STR 18 ->19 (5th) ->20 (10th) ->21 (15th) ->22 (20th)
DEX 12 ->14 (20th)
CON 12 ->14 (5th) ->16 (10th) ->18 [ooc](15th)
INT 10 ->12 (20th)
WIS 10 ->12 (5th) ->14 (10th) ->16 (15th) ->18 [ooc](20th)
CHA 16 ->18 (5th) ->19 [ooc](10th) ->20 (15th)

[1] Hospice Knight, Natural Ambition (Warded Touch)
[2] Divine Grace [Fighter Dedication seems better]
[4] Deity's Domain (Zeal- Weapon Surge) [Double Slice seems better]

If you use the Bastard Sword, would it be better to take Basic Maneuver to gain Power Attack?

Absolutely not, Power Attack on it's own is a trap but it's awful on paladins especially when double slice is an option since your class features will add damage to both attacks.

Superior style is superior.


Don't you need a free hand to cast Lay on Hands? With the Bastard Sword, it would be 2d12 with two hands, or 2d8 with one hand, which is still decent


magnaangemon01 wrote:
Paladin_Knight_marshmallow wrote:
magnaangemon01 wrote:
Paladin_Knight_marshmallow wrote:

sample build:

Human (Merchant)
STR 18 ->19 (5th) ->20 (10th) ->21 (15th) ->22 (20th)
DEX 12 ->14 (20th)
CON 12 ->14 (5th) ->16 (10th) ->18 [ooc](15th)
INT 10 ->12 (20th)
WIS 10 ->12 (5th) ->14 (10th) ->16 (15th) ->18 [ooc](20th)
CHA 16 ->18 (5th) ->19 [ooc](10th) ->20 (15th)

[1] Hospice Knight, Natural Ambition (Warded Touch)
[2] Divine Grace [Fighter Dedication seems better]
[4] Deity's Domain (Zeal- Weapon Surge) [Double Slice seems better]

If you use the Bastard Sword, would it be better to take Basic Maneuver to gain Power Attack?

Absolutely not, Power Attack on it's own is a trap but it's awful on paladins especially when double slice is an option since your class features will add damage to both attacks.

Superior style is superior.

Double Slice is nice, but don't you need a free hand to cast Lay on Hands?

I was looking into cleric dedication to cover casting with a weapon as well.


That's a lot of feats to cover so many bases. The playtest I'm doing, I'm going to be a Paladin that does most of the healing as well. Trying to round out my character to serve as dps and heals.


magnaangemon01 wrote:
That's a lot of feats to cover so many bases. The playtest I'm doing, I'm going to be a Paladin that does most of the healing as well. Trying to round out my character to serve as dps and heals.

Skip the class exclusive stuff for damage, multiclass into cleric. You'll cast with your weapon, get access to stuff like magic weapon, and be able to enhance it further with something like the Zeal Domain. Blade ally is the obvious best choice, and I'm not sure if clerics get magical striker.


I'll have to give the second build above a try. Which Champion Powers would you suggest?


magnaangemon01 wrote:
I'll have to give the second build above a try. Which Champion Powers would you suggest?

The one that gives you heal that you can channel with, and the domain ones that give you zeal and extra spell points for more uses seem like ideal choices, considering most of your other choices are taken up by class stuff.

Double Slice is so good by comparison to all other melee styles it makes me sad.


master_marshmallow wrote:
magnaangemon01 wrote:
I'll have to give the second build above a try. Which Champion Powers would you suggest?

The one that gives you heal that you can channel with, and the domain ones that give you zeal and extra spell points for more uses seem like ideal choices, considering most of your other choices are taken up by class stuff.

Double Slice is so good by comparison to all other melee styles it makes me sad.

Has anyone on here made a Champion Powers list to make it easier to reference?


magnaangemon01 wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
magnaangemon01 wrote:
I'll have to give the second build above a try. Which Champion Powers would you suggest?

The one that gives you heal that you can channel with, and the domain ones that give you zeal and extra spell points for more uses seem like ideal choices, considering most of your other choices are taken up by class stuff.

Double Slice is so good by comparison to all other melee styles it makes me sad.

Has anyone on here made a Champion Powers list to make it easier to reference?

Considering how bad most of the litanies are, it would seem no one wants to bother.

Bolstered is really bad.


master_marshmallow wrote:
magnaangemon01 wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
magnaangemon01 wrote:
I'll have to give the second build above a try. Which Champion Powers would you suggest?

The one that gives you heal that you can channel with, and the domain ones that give you zeal and extra spell points for more uses seem like ideal choices, considering most of your other choices are taken up by class stuff.

Double Slice is so good by comparison to all other melee styles it makes me sad.

Has anyone on here made a Champion Powers list to make it easier to reference?

Considering how bad most of the litanies are, it would seem no one wants to bother.

Bolstered is really bad.

I wasn't expecting a detailed list lol

Just looking for the names to make it easier to look up. I'll take a look myself. All spells listed as "Powers" a Paladin can use, right?


master_marshmallow wrote:
magnaangemon01 wrote:
I'll have to give the second build above a try. Which Champion Powers would you suggest?

The one that gives you heal that you can channel with, and the domain ones that give you zeal and extra spell points for more uses seem like ideal choices, considering most of your other choices are taken up by class stuff.

Double Slice is so good by comparison to all other melee styles it makes me sad.

I didn't see a lot of healing and none to do with zeals. Thinking of taking powers that make me seem angelic and control the weather. I especially like the ones where I can do ranged wind attacks.


I genuinely think the best use of taking champion powers as feats is to get more spell points to use for LoH or Heal via Channel Life. Like on an Iomedean Paladin, I would consider spending feats on deity's domain and advanced domain picking zeal because it's 4 more heals.

Aura of Faith and Litany of Righteousness seem pretty good together, though.


I've looked through cleric dedication and I don't see how you can cast with a weapon to heal as a Paladin. Where are you finding all this?

Silver Crusade

I must be missing something obvious. Why am I seeing these Paladin builds with Celestial as a free language?


There's a cleric feat that does it, gotta look there.


master_marshmallow wrote:
There's a cleric feat that does it, gotta look there.

Looked there. I cannot find this ability.

Silver Crusade

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master_marshmallow wrote:
There's a cleric feat that does it, gotta look there.

Sorry, I'm still missing something. I don't see anywhere in the build for that 1at level paladin where a cleric feat comes into play. I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around all the new PF2 rules so please pardon my ignorance.


I can't either. So just going to build the character my way. If it's wrong, it's wrong. Not much of a powergamer anyways.


Prethen wrote:
I must be missing something obvious. Why am I seeing these Paladin builds with Celestial as a free language?

That was one of the 1st things I noticed in the builds, then I noticed that humans learn an extra language for free at 1st level


Here is an interesting feat chain...

First off "Double Slice" isn't the best thing since sliced bread. It is a dual wielding thing. I don't see a point in it if you aren't dual wielding and you can burst out a little. Here is my Swordmaiden of Iomedae feat Chain:

This is for a one handed no shield Longsword build.

01: Deity's Domain (Zeal!) (+1 Spell Point)
02: Fighter Dedication
04: Basic Training: Dueling Parry
06: Advanced Training: Furious Focus
08: Blade of Justice
10: Radiant Blade Spirit
12: Advanced Training: Dueling Dance
14: Litany of Righteousness (+1 Spell Point)
16: Angel Form
18: Advanced Domain (You are only taking this for +3 Spell Points)
20: Advanced Training: Weapon Supremacy

This is about 1/2 Fighter, but is a lot of fun. It is all about spamming attacks and maximizing defense. Dueling Dance allows you to activate your Dueling Parry without spending an action. You always have a free hand to use Lay on Hands if you have to. At level 20 you get free haste for more attacks and Furious Focus helps you to not suffer unnecessary attack penalties.

You can also pump out some good extra damage by dropping your Weapon Surge domain power to add an extra die of damage to your normal strike, or Litany to give your opponent a weakness to your Radiant Blade Spirit.

If an enemy is in melee with you and you're hasted:
Action 1: Litany of Justice
Action 2: Blade of Justice
Action 3: Attack
Action 4: Attack

That is a pretty good combination, if both attacks hit the Litany (at level 14) adds an extra 5 damage per hit. On top of the extra damage from Blade of Justice, which is granted, kind of lame at only +1 damage per weapon Die, but, with a +3 sword? Perfectly reasonable at level 14... You're hitting that sucker for 4d8+Strength+1d6+9 which ain't half bad in this system assuming you have a +6 Strength by that point (very reasonable) you're dealing out an average of 37 damage on the first hit, with a reasonable 29 on the followup? In this system that ain't too bad to be honest.


Here is another fun one:

The 2nd Edition AD&D Paladin

01: Warded Touch
02: Cleric Dedication
04: Basic Cleric Spellcasting
06: Domain
08: Divine Breadth
10: Basic Dogma: Emblazon Symbol
12: Shield Warden
14: Shield of Reckoning
16: Holy Wall
18: Shield of Grace
20: Shield Champion

Low level spellcasting, your Wisdom is your casting stat (eventually), it is mediocre but... Well... Let us be honest here... They weren't that great back in 2nd Edition AD&D hehe... But you have some spells, you have a decent stock of spell points, and you can cast with a shield in your hand. With Warded Touch and Emblazon Symbol you can use your LoH without triggering an AoO while still holding your shield.


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Prethen wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
There's a cleric feat that does it, gotta look there.
Sorry, I'm still missing something. I don't see anywhere in the build for that 1at level paladin where a cleric feat comes into play. I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around all the new PF2 rules so please pardon my ignorance.

I found it. If you take Cleric Dedication, it then allows you to take Basic Dogma which gives you a cleric feat:Emblazon Symbol.

Silver Crusade

magnaangemon01 wrote:
Prethen wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
There's a cleric feat that does it, gotta look there.
Sorry, I'm still missing something. I don't see anywhere in the build for that 1at level paladin where a cleric feat comes into play. I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around all the new PF2 rules so please pardon my ignorance.
I found it. If you take Cleric Dedication, it then allows you to take Basic Dogma which gives you a cleric feat:Emblazon Symbol.

Assuming this is a first level character you can't take that feat. Also the extra human language I believe is only given if it's part of your ethnicity, not that you get to freely choose a new one unless your Int is above 14.


Prethen wrote:
magnaangemon01 wrote:
Prethen wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
There's a cleric feat that does it, gotta look there.
Sorry, I'm still missing something. I don't see anywhere in the build for that 1at level paladin where a cleric feat comes into play. I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around all the new PF2 rules so please pardon my ignorance.
I found it. If you take Cleric Dedication, it then allows you to take Basic Dogma which gives you a cleric feat:Emblazon Symbol.
Assuming this is a first level character you can't take that feat.

True. But baby steps


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Making sure I have this right- for, say, a Glaive-wielding Shelynite Paladin the action progression is:

- Remove one hand from glaive (free)
- LoH (1 Action)
- Regrip glaive (1 action)

Leaving you one more action to move or attack with.


HWalsh wrote:

Here is an interesting feat chain...

First off "Double Slice" isn't the best thing since sliced bread. It is a dual wielding thing. I don't see a point in it if you aren't dual wielding and you can burst out a little.

Check the math, the ability to drop either two attacks at no MAP, or the ability to drop one attack at no MAP and two at MAP -4 is superior to all other styles mathematically. Gonna need to do another distribution spread for full attacks vs only double attacks, but this is true no matter the scenario, especially given the game's intended focus on crits and the incredible lack of ways to improve your attack bonus. This statement is just plain wrong. I want it to be right, it's our job to bring the other styles up so that it is right, but as of now with the way the math of the game works this is not right.

Quote:

Here is my Swordmaiden of Iomedae feat Chain:

This is for a one handed no shield Longsword build.

01: Deity's Domain (Zeal!) (+1 Spell Point)
Seems okay so far
02: Fighter Dedication
I'm following
04: Basic Training: Dueling Parry
So the purpose of this feat is to waste a feat to get less benefits than using a shield for the same action cost? Seems bad. Plus, by 8th level you could take Twin Parry and do the same thing, but potentially better with Twin Parry and Double Slice.
06: Advanced Training: Furious Focus
WHY!?!?!? This feat only enhances your ability to fail, and let's you do what you already could do better with Double Slice as you get the option of actually landing your secondary attack and still making another secondary attack. This feat is a trap.
08: Blade of Justice
Sadly, I don't see this feat being that great at all for a single weapon build, that action tax means you need better returns on it or you'll just be wasting actions, and feats. This feat needs to get better.
10: Radiant Blade Spirit
Now that I've looked into it, Holy is actually pretty garbage since it costs a reaction to activate now and prevents you from taking other reactions that turn, and only for 1d6 good damage, it's still an action tax, and it's one that removes Retributive Strike from your repertoire.
12: Advanced Training: Dueling Dance
This is a 12th level fighter feat. You will never qualify for it.
14: Litany of Righteousness (+1 Spell Point)
A trap option as it turns out, especially if you only use one weapon to get the benefits from, it's a one shot deal to maybe get 5 damage on an enemy once, since the enemy is then bolstered to all your litanies, and if I need to drop that enemy this turn to make using this ability worth it, then I'm sticking with Double Slice because I'll get more attacks in, have better chances to hit, and get more damage.
16: Angel Form
This is a level 18 feat, and you always want Instrument of Zeal at this level unless you're not built for damage.
18: Advanced Domain (You are only taking this for +3 Spell Points)
Take it earlier, but I agree on its utility.
20: Advanced Training: Weapon Supremacy
Illegal feat, can only be taken by 20th level fighters, and you only count as 10th.

This is about 1/2 Fighter, but is a lot of fun. It is all about spamming attacks and maximizing defense. Dueling Dance allows you to activate your Dueling Parry without spending an action. You always have a free hand to use Lay on Hands if you have to. At level 20 you get free haste for more attacks and Furious Focus helps you to not suffer unnecessary attack penalties.

My comments are in bold beneath each choice. Most, if not all of this is wrong and doesn't follow the rules in the book.

Quote:
You can also pump out some good extra damage by dropping your Weapon Surge domain power to add an extra die of damage to your normal strike, or Litany to give your opponent a weakness to your Radiant Blade Spirit.

Action taxes do not help you do more damage than just making an extra attack. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Quote:

If an enemy is in melee with you and you're hasted:

Action 1: Litany of Justice
Action 2: Blade of Justice
Action 3: Attack
Action 4: Attack

That is a pretty good combination, if both attacks hit the Litany (at level 14) adds an extra 5 damage per hit. On top of the extra damage from Blade of Justice, which is granted, kind of lame at only +1 damage per weapon Die, but, with a +3 sword? Perfectly reasonable at level 14... You're hitting that sucker for 4d8+Strength+1d6+9 which ain't half bad in this system assuming you have a +6 Strength by that point (very reasonable) you're dealing out an average of 37 damage on the first hit, with a reasonable 29 on the followup? In this system that ain't too bad to be honest.

Or I could just go:

[A] Blade of Justice, [A] Strike (MAP 0), {A\\] Double Slice (MAP-4/-4)

This has way better odds of hitting, and critting, multiple times over.

Litany of Righteousness is a joke, Blade of Justice is weak, but when you combine it with Instrument of Zeal it works okay. Double Slice is in all ways superior to most other combat styles, and by most I mean all of them so far as written in PF2.

Math matters, design matters, system competence matters. I want your build to be viable and playable, I really do, but as the game is written all you've proven is that you didn't read enough. It's okay though, read more, post more, and hopefully the devs will work on the other styles to bring them up to Double Slice's bar, because it is an incredible feat. In fact, it might be better than Sudden Charge, or at least equal to it.


Instead of responding to the person who decided to try to hammer home in a long winded explanation that, "You missed the line where your Fighter level is only considered 1/2 for the purposes of choosing feats from the fighter dedication"

I'll openly admit that "Hey, at 4am after not sleeping, I missed a line that said your fighter level is only considered 1/2 for the purposes of choosing feats from the Fighter Dedication."

Then I'll revise the plan (and I still won't take Double Slice because this isn't a dual wielding build.)


Paladin_Knight_marshmallow wrote:

Or I could just go:

[A] Blade of Justice, [A] Strike (MAP 0), {A\\] Double Slice (MAP-4/-4)
This has way better odds of hitting, and critting, multiple times over.

Litany of Righteousness is a joke, Blade of Justice is weak, but when you combine it with Instrument of Zeal it works okay. Double Slice is in all ways superior to most other combat styles, and by most I mean all of them so far as written in PF2.

Math matters, design matters, system competence matters. I want your build to be viable and playable, I really do, but as the game is written all you've proven is that you didn't read enough. It's okay though, read more, post more, and hopefully the devs will work on the other styles to bring them up to Double Slice's bar, because it is an incredible feat. In fact, it might be better than Sudden Charge, or at least equal to it.

First off:

Again: Double slice is only good if you are going dual wielding - If you *are* then it is great. If you are trying to optimize then it is wonderful (unless we are all incorrect about Warded Touch potentially removing the requirement of needing a free hand to use LoH at which point then Double Slice pretty much removes your own self-healing)...

Yes, if you are an optimizer you probably want it, congrats. We aren't all optimizers.

-----

Secondly:

1. If I were a dual wielder, I would not bother with Blade of Justice. It only adds a +1 per die the weapon is and only effects one weapon (as we can't get 2 blade allies to my understanding). So you're likely looking at a +1 - +2 damage boost and if you are an "Optimizer" who is already basically saying everything that isn't double slice is trash, then well... Why bother? Totally not worth the action loss.

2. In a game that has been out for less than a week and a half missing one line isn't any reason for you to be condescending.

3. You keep focusing pretty much on, "Everything but Double Slice is trash" and it simply isn't the case. Yes, things aren't as good as Double Slice but not every build is going to be a dual wielder. Dual Wielding has problems if you plan on using spells or spell points as the book is written now, you keep ignoring that.


HWalsh wrote:
Paladin_Knight_marshmallow wrote:

Or I could just go:

[A] Blade of Justice, [A] Strike (MAP 0), {A\\] Double Slice (MAP-4/-4)
This has way better odds of hitting, and critting, multiple times over.

Litany of Righteousness is a joke, Blade of Justice is weak, but when you combine it with Instrument of Zeal it works okay. Double Slice is in all ways superior to most other combat styles, and by most I mean all of them so far as written in PF2.

Math matters, design matters, system competence matters. I want your build to be viable and playable, I really do, but as the game is written all you've proven is that you didn't read enough. It's okay though, read more, post more, and hopefully the devs will work on the other styles to bring them up to Double Slice's bar, because it is an incredible feat. In fact, it might be better than Sudden Charge, or at least equal to it.

First off:

Again: Double slice is only good if you are going dual wielding - If you *are* then it is great. If you are trying to optimize then it is wonderful (unless we are all incorrect about Warded Touch potentially removing the requirement of needing a free hand to use LoH at which point then Double Slice pretty much removes your own self-healing)...

Yes, if you are an optimizer you probably want it, congrats. We aren't all optimizers.

-----

Secondly:

1. If I were a dual wielder, I would not bother with Blade of Justice. It only adds a +1 per die the weapon is and only effects one weapon (as we can't get 2 blade allies to my understanding). So you're likely looking at a +1 - +2 damage boost and if you are an "Optimizer" who is already basically saying everything that isn't double slice is trash, then well... Why bother? Totally not worth the action loss.

2. In a game that has been out for less than a week and a half missing one line isn't any reason for you to be condescending.

3. You keep focusing pretty much on, "Everything but Double Slice is trash" and it simply isn't the case. Yes, things aren't as...

I don't think you read my post at all then if you're still attacking me personally, maybe step away from the keyboard for a while....

Optimization is one thing, competence is another. The difference here is that when we're talking about design of the game I want to make sure that a player who isn't an optimizer can make a build like yours and not fall significantly behind another player at the table who is optimized.

I'm on your side here guy.


Alright, guys, it's just a playtest. Nothing to get worked up over. Paladin_knight is just trying to tell you how to maximize your damage. What you do after that is up to you. You don't have to take his advice.

Personally, HWalsh, I'm on your side. And that's the great thing about these games. You can do what you want. You can just file away his advice for another character. That's what I'm going to do.

There's really no point getting worked up over something that may not even reach the final product in the same condition.


So in lieu of the fact that I did miss a line at early o clock in the morning let me revise that Swordmaiden of Iomedae build.

Build 1:
The Double Slicer (God I hate optimizing)

01: Hospitalier

Because Weapon Surge doesn't work with two weapons, so domain is out, and Warded Touch still requires a free hand so it is out, thus leaving Hospitalier your only choice.

02: Fighter Dedication
04: Basic Training: Double Slice

03: Because using two weapons stops most of your Paladin options your only viable choice is the Steed Ally.

06: Loyal Warhorse
08: Advanced Training: Twin Parry
10: Imposing Destrier (Free move action is free.)

12: Attack of Opportunity

Because everything else at this level is dead if you are a dual Wielder

14: Aura of Righteousness
(though I have no idea how useful this will actually be)

16: Auspicious Mount

18: Divine Grace (?)

This level is free for you to pick whatever you want. It is practically dead as a level because if you are going Double Slice you have already limited yourself quite a bit utility-wise. You could take Angelic Form, but you have a mount that is about to have wings.

20: Celestial Mount


magnaangemon01 wrote:

Alright, guys, it's just a playtest. Nothing to get worked up over. Paladin_knight is just trying to tell you how to maximize your damage. What you do after that is up to you. You don't have to take his advice.

Personally, HWalsh, I'm on your side. And that's the great thing about these games. You can do what you want. You can just file away his advice for another character. That's what I'm going to do.

There's really no point getting worked up over something that may not even reach the final product in the same condition.

Side of what exactly?

I'm pointing out mathematical differences that create great amounts of disparity and enforce system mastery. The goal here is for builds like this one to come close to, or otherwise trade off potential for better play.

Villifying me and attacking me personally for identifying the issues of the system is not an attack or offense to any individual.

I'm offended that either of you feel the need to go after me and call me out for your own presuppositions of me. I never meant to insult or defame anyone here, you're choosing to be offended and blaming me for it.

I'm trying to help you, I'm on your side, but claiming there are sides in the first place is divisive and toxic behavior that is not productive or conducive to the cause of making the game better.


You know, the above Double Slice mounted build really isn't so bad now that I look at it. You'll have decent movement options because of the mount. You'll be able to stride as a free action once you get Imposing Destrier so that works pretty well. Double Slice does give you an extra attack, or rather a much more likely chance that your extra attack will hit.

Oddly, your mount doesn't count as an ally though so it limits your use of Retributive Strike (which is odd) but it does effectively grant you reach as you can attack anything touching the borders of your mount.

It isn't my go to, I am not really a fan of mounted combat, but it really isn't that bad. Filing that one for later.

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