Painful Bugger's page

Just use the N. Jolly's Legendary Shifter. It has everything the Shifter should have been. Shout out to Adaptive Shifter being pretty good (even though the amount of time you stay wildshaped was to short).

All Paizo had to do was make a full BAB wildshaper with archtypes that changed the wildshape focus to specific creature types based on the shapechanging spells. After that you start making the weird shifters. Probably the easiest class you could have possibly developed. The one class that didnt have a playtest and it shows. Forever the wet fart end of 1st edition.

We shall soon see. Shipping has begun, but so far nobody has piped up to say that their copy shipped and they have their PDF. Maybe we will hear something tomorrow? Or maybe, if I am really lucky, I can be the source of the info....

(Testing the obvious jinx on an early shipment....)

Amazon has it listed as being released June 11. So let us cross our fingers...

I'm really digging the new stuff in the book except for Shifter. Like I thought Shifter is being burdened by the original Shifter design for many of it's archetypes design choices. It makes archetype abilities have weird pacing issues and not enough legitimate class abilities to replace or change for the new archetype to change. The extra natural attacks should've been there from day one and some of those feats introduced should've been class abilities from the start.

Swarm shifter feels promising but I feel that to many of it's abilities come online way too late, the capstone is amazing though.

Dragon shifter feels incomplete, especially when it's not addressing the other dragon types. I can suck it up with FOTD coming online at 9th level as Druid typically gets it's wildshape forms only a level earlier then the Wizard, so Shifter is getting it 2 levels earlier. But does it have to be minutes equal to lvl+wis mod? Maybe 10 minutes per lvl+wis mod. He's not casting spells and he doesn't get bonus feats so why not give the Shifter utility? And no FOTD 3? Not even as a capstone? Come on guys. Also I hope this a typo because the breath weapon is charisma based, I'm hoping it was meant to be Con or at least Wis otherwise you a charater that needs 4 stats to be decent. The spell resistance is nice at level 20, not asked for but won't be argued against.

Fey shifter is alright except for the amount time spent in fey form. Could've ditched the animal aspects part of the archetype and increased fey form to hours per level.

EDIT- wow... surprising that I got ninja'd with my monster hunter reference...

I was on the making monster hunter pathfinder monsters train for awhile now. You have to take the sizes they give you with a bit of a grain of salt. Teostra is obviously not that long.

But you can get some fun stuff out of them. Vaal Hazak is a giant rotting eel dragon that has can release a aura of poisonous mist that it can suck back into itself to heal a bit of it's life and kill creatures native to it's environment that can survive in the poison. Just change it to that it can heal damage based on the number of creatures afflicted by it's miasma. That'll have the cleric scrambling to cast remove poison or heal.

There's never enough dragons, or monsters for that matter. I like to homebrew convert Monster Hunter monsters into Pathfinder monsters. Stuff like Rathalos and Rathians are just fire breathing wyverns. The Elder Dragons make for far more interesting encounters.

Hey as a personal project I did up a Adaptive Shifter class and class table that presents the shifter and and the adaptive shifter archetype combined together so people (myself especially) don't have to refer to the original shifter and the splatbook. They can just read this version instead of looking up multiple sources.

Adaptive Shifter Class

For funsies I did up a Adaptive Shifter class and class table so people don't have to refer to the original shifter and the splatbook. They can just read this version for convenience sake. Gonna post this in Archmage Variel's thread. Adaptive Shifter Class

My theory about all the Shifter people being Animorphs fans is rolling along nicely.

The most I know about that series is the terrible covers and the joke one with Hank Hill turning into a propane tank. That one is pretty good.

Please elaborate.

Nah. I already got unchained shifter at this point.

Edit: Ah you dug throw my old posts in an attempt to soothe your butthurt. On that note I'll say that a friend of mine shoved that book in my face and pretty much went "READ *****! READ!" and I was pleasantly surprised.

I'd like to play in games where you don't run of rage rounds but it happens in my games. Thing though is that Rage is much easier to ration out then Wild Shape. People keep forgetting that Wild Shape isn't just a combat ability but also a utility ability as well. Sometimes you need to be big enough to carry the entire party for extended periods of time, sometimes you need to be really small so you can hide on someone else's person for a variety of reasons, sometimes you want to do something clever and interesting but find yourself severely limited by time constraints.

I hate for a player to be a mouse for a few hours but be completely unable to change into a big bruiser like a bear or gorilla if the situation calls for it.

Gorbacz is going all out today!

Goalpost moving aside, running out of rage rounds is frightfully easy to do in the games I play in and run.

Oh don't take him seriously. I was the first to speak out about the issues with the shifter and him and others were strident naysayers. We saw who was right in the end. ;)

In the 15-minute adventure day reality of Pathfinder, that's absolutely not an issue after first few levels.

You and I play very different games. Duration of abilities matter quite a bit and just because you run out abilities doesn't mean you are out of danger and get to take a break. Such a character would quickly run out of wild shape uses during the first half of an adventuring day and for remainder of the day be a really weird warrior. Maybe he can fly or be really big but he won't be any kind of animal or plant. Hate to make a comparison to the druid but even when the druid is out of spells he can solidly be in a combat form that commands battlefield respect.

I just don't care for the time limit. Maybe if it was half level + wis modifier it wouldn't sting so much. It wouldn't need to reach at-will, just like for the posibility for a 6 to 14 hour day instead of a 3 to 10 from 6th level to 20th.

It's great, the forms are kinda what people really wanted out of the shifter. I just got a minor and major complaint. My minor complaint is why no elemental wild shape? It fits the theme of a planar archetype. What's it hurting? But whatever the plant and animal forms are fine. My major complaint is the length of time for wildshape. It went from level+wis modifier in hours to half level in hours. So you get 3 hours of wild shape when get it and it never caps out to at-will, at most it goes is 10 hours. Can't cut the shifter any slack huh?

The Adaptive Shifter archetype fixes nearly everything wrong with base shifter except wildshape. Wildshape lets you turn into plants and animals (but not elementals for some reason even though this is a planar shifter archetype) but has duration of the wildshape equal to half your level and you get it at 6th level. Can't embarrass anyone by stepping on the original Shifter's toes can we?. Overall still a improvement but it's still two steps forward, one step back.

Edit: I have the clarify the wildshape duration is not half level + wis modifier, it's just half level. A severe downgrade from the shifter's level + wis mod. I could possibly understand half level + wis modifier but it's just half level in hours. You don't even get wildshape at will at 20th level. Better luck next time I suppose.

Barachiel Shina wrote:

Waiting on another batch of Shifter fixes, Paizo.

Wish I could offer something more official, but I did write up the Legendary Shifter for people who were looking for different options here. It's a complete rebuild of the class which removes the limitations of wildshape, adds new abilities each level, tosses in some bonus feats, and even gives new options that the druid's wildshape doesn't to help separate them thematically.

Again, if 3p isn't your thing, disregard it, but it's an option for groups who were looking for different concepts for the shifter class.

I highly recommend Jolly's Legendary Shifter. It's the most "why couldn't they have made this!" 3pp content imagineable. Beg and plead for this to be allowed at you tables cause Paizo isn't going to fix Shifter. Bury your hopes and dreams on that.

They fixed the base class

That's debatable. There's a few dead levels, issues with the aspects that need addressing, and the limited choices of wildshape. I don't really know any table that's currently allowing the shifter as they feel it's incomplete. Legendary Shifter is the only shifter being allowed and everytime it was a uphill battle against the "no 3pp" rule.

They closed the thread about shifter changes saying they'll open it when anymore changes come. That was a month and a half ago and there's been nothing ever since. There's been other threads with suggestions and fixes, the most common of these is to make wildshape a seperate thing from aspects and have it be more open like the druid and give the class bonus feats. Discussion pretty much died when all you can talk about with certainty was what would be surefire fixes to the class and get no feedback.

I'm firmly in the camp believing that paizo has pretty much abandoned the Shifter choosing to focus entirely on 2ed and anything else coming out for the shifter in the remaining 1ed books are at most is going to be cool but you're going to have to deal with the busted chasis the class came with.

Best thing you can do is either heavy handed homebrew or if your table allows 3rd party then get Legendary Shifter, a complete rework of the class. That one had a playtest and it shows. If 3rd party is not allowed then beg and plead for this exception.

I've noticed that Shifter has been approved for PFS. I guess that's it then for the Shifter class. There was still issues with the Shifter like having dead 5 dead levels where they got nothing but an increase to either defensive instinct or shifter claws, the strange placement of A Thousand Faces at 18th level, and how wonky and unsatisfying the shifter aspects are especially when they last a short period of time. What about satisfying changes to wild shape? What about druid and shifter interactions with wild shape? I guess that's asking too much with a new edition on the way.

There should have been a playtest.

Well so much for a fix for this class as well as all the potential for archetypes and other options.

Should've been a slam dunk. Just gonna throw my fix out there. Kinda expect this is what people were looking for. Painful's Shifter Fix.

Painful Bugger wrote:

Legendary Shifter is pretty good, I took part in the playtest. I wish paizo would shamelessly steal more from it.

Thanks.

Dragon78 wrote:

"Steal more"?, what did they "steal" from it to begin with?

I'm assuming that's in reference to the change in duration to wild shape, which was apart of the Legendary Shifter from pretty early into the playtest. I originally used the normal wild shape duration in the project, but after a lot of people talked about how they wanted something more fluid, I settled on the 1 hour per 2 class level formula that felt like it helped everything play more cohesively.

Sorry, sarcasm doesn't carry well in text format. BTW my table enjoy the archetypes for legendary shifter.

It seems like further changes to the shifter class and archetypes may not be forthcoming as we haven't seen any updates to the FAQ in awhile. I did pick up Legendary Games Legendary Shifter and was really impressed. I know it's 3PP material but if a GM allows it and you want to play a shifter class that has much of the input the community has been providing integrated into it, consider checking it out.

Legendary Shifter is pretty good, I took part in the playtest. I wish paizo would shamelessly steal more from it.

SNIP

Sorry I don't know why google drive keeps turning off link sharing, it's on.

So for purposes of updating d20pfsrd.com, we ONLY update classes and such with OFFICIAL errata, that is, when Paizo releases a PDF that is OFFICIAL errata, or has an actual FAQ update. Is there such an update for the Shifter, or is it JUST a forum post thus far?

Here's a pdf of the shifter that's just regular shifter + errata as indicated by the FAQ errata and it's formatted like the Shifter on your site.

Paizo Shifter for d20pfsrd.

The only thing I'm not certain on 100% is how Shifter's Fury would be presented on the table.

EDIT: now that I look at it, I really dislike how they set up the Shifter table in the book, it's aesthetically unsatisfying.

For future archetype design planning to work around wild shape it'd be a very good idea to move then mention of gaining Wild Shape at-will at 20th level from the Final Aspect class ability to the Wild Shape class ability.

I agree, the base shifter shouldn't have plant and elemental wildshape. I would prefer to add vermin forms since technically they are actually animals despite the different creature type.

I agree plant don't really fit the theme of the Shifter and Vermin should probably be included, but I think Elemental should stay. If you just let it include Animals then Wild Shape won't improve past 8th level. Personally I think the Shifter's Wild Shape should be Animals, Elementals, and Magical Beasts. So basically Beast Shape 1-4, Elemental Body 1-4, and Magical Beast Shape. It fits more of a martial theme of the Shifter, and this way the Shifter gets combat variety and can actually turn into a Chimera.

Also you left out the at will wild shape and aspects at level 20. But other then that I like it.

You talking about my fan revision? I deliberately left off a time limit on the aspects and like the original Wild Shape text of the Druid I noted that Wild Shape becomes at will at 20th level. Something that Shifter should have done so as to avoid excessive re-writes to future archtypes. They should disengage wild shape duration from the Final Aspect in the errata otherwise you'll have to note all over again if a Shifter can Wild Shape at will whenever they change how aspects work.

I noticed the forums have gone through some recent changes and hyperlinks are differentiated much from the other text and since I can't go back and edit a old post so here's the bolded link to the Shifter Doc indicating all the shifter changes. I've corrected a few things:

Link: Updated Shifter with all the errata.

I'd love to see a feature that gives you a list of effects you can apply to a form when you shift into it, and you can pick and choose what gets added to that list for some actual character build choices. For example, choose the bonus DR, bonus natural armor, and fast healing options to play tanky, or choose the bleed, ability drain and sneak attack options to play a rogue-type.

HA! I updated it to match the current Shifter errata and it STILL has a smaller word count even with Druid Wild Shape.

I'd love to see a feature that gives you a list of effects you can apply to a form when you shift into it, and you can pick and choose what gets added to that list for some actual character build choices. For example, choose the bonus DR, bonus natural armor, and fast healing options to play tanky, or choose the bleed, ability drain and sneak attack options to play a rogue-type.

Funny enough I did a complete redesign of the Shifter just for fun that gave the shifter Wild Shape as per the Druid, ditched the Aspects, and instead allowed you to pick and choose Universal Monster Abilities to apply to your form. Some of them improved over time, getting better as you level while others had a level requirement. Overall to my surprise the word count for the redesign turned out to be less then the current Shifter.

I agree you don't get aspects often enough and too many bonuses of the minor forms are too situational or just straight replaced by a magic item dropped by an enemy. Rethinking it maybe minor and major aspects should be combined and turned into a much more fleshed out packages to justify how infrequently you get them. Maybe have these aspects last all day? I still like the idea of aspects being something that modifies your base form instead of being a substitute for wild shape. Kind of like a "template" you can apply to yourself or you wild shaped form to gain advantages.

I'd like to divorce stats from shape- allow me to bite just as well with the corgi aspect (...yeah, Mark added that in the shifter errata thread) as I do with the wolf aspect.

For reference I made a doc that's just the Shifter class with all the recent changes Paizo made. I also included the corgi just because.

Updated Shifter with all the errata.

I would prefer wild shape to be function similar to the druid's, I'm not a fan of such a hyper focused choice that you see maybe in an archetype. The Shifter doesn't necessarily need the access to all the same forms as a druid. I'll plant shape and possibly elemental shape but I would agree certainly agree to them having vermain shape and access to magical beast shape.

As for the aspects it's real simple. Don't make them forms you change into, rather make them changes you can apply to your base form and your wild shape form.
-Falcon Aspect + Beast shape III into a hippo = flying hippo with talons.
-Stag Aspect + Beast Shape III into a crocodile = really fast crocodile trying to gore you chasing you around.
-Tiger Aspect + Fire Elemental form = Fire Tiger with claws and pounce.
It's really that simple, chimeric aspect could even come into play. Could truely be something chimeric.

Because I think oozemorph is a lost cause I'll shift gears and beseech Paizo to give the Shifter the Intimidate class skill. Just about every shapeshifter in fiction has a moment or two of being the scariest guy around. Even something simple as the equivalent of Alter Self has allowed shapeshifters to make their victims crap their pants in fear.

Cavall wrote:

I honestly just see shifter as a hunter with no pet that traded spells for full BAB. Aspects are just hunters focus, they really are.

I feel like trading an animal companion, and spells, and bonus feats for full BAB and (limited) wild-shape is at the very least vastly overestimating the value of full vs. 3/4 BAB.

Which is why I argue to open up wild shape to be like druid's wild shape. It gives the shifter many options to choose from right from the start, it'd be the one class you wouldn't have to wait for future books to get anywhere near the number of options the shifter has. And the amount of archetypes you could have made from beginning is enough to cover several pages worth of material. Such archetypes could be a giant shifter, magical beast shifter, a dragon shifter, a true ooze shifter, a true elemental shifter, a fey shifter, undead shifter, monstrous humanoid shifter, vermin shifter. And if you want to get creative you can force the dragon and elemental to choose a specific type.

Edit: And a real plant shifter, not that gimped version that can only wild shape minutes per day.

Edit 2: I just looked it up and realized I forgotten that it was in ROUNDS. Rounds per day!? Why? That's so terrible. Who would make such a decision?

The oozemorph reminds me an awful lot of Tensei Shi-tara Slime datta ken. It's a manga where some dude is reborn in another world in the form of a slime and he pretty much sucks in the same way the oozemorph does at low levels while later optionally getting the ability to turn into a human form that's more powerful. I'm not saying this is where the influence came from but I've seen enough archtypes that were way too blatant about their attempted subtlety to not smirk at them.

Quite frankly I rather them ditch the human form all together and just let you be an ooze that steadily gets more powerful, maybe getting stuff like engulf, corrosive touch, and the ability to vibrate and shape oneself to create noise. You can solve alot of problems just by saying that the oozemorph retains the same magic item slots as the based form and they have pseudopods with which to manipulate things and attack with. Or maybe just make an archtype based around the spells ooze form I - III.

Edit: I see that there's an auto-censor that doesn't recognize Japanese words so I put a dash in the middle of it.

I'd rather not have yet another MAD class but I'm in the minority. Anyway the enhancement bonuses granted by the minor aspects are terribly unimaginative when you could have used much more thematic bonuses in their place. Frankly I'm not a fan of the aspects, didn't like it on the hunter and I don't like it on the shifter.

If you ask me you should just ditch the idea of minor and major forms and have aspects be some form of improving "mantle" if you would that improves both your base form and wild shape. You don't necessarily turn into the animal but they grant you features and abilities of the animal along with cosmetic changes.

Considering "Shifter's Fury" is basically "treat one of your natural weapons as a manufactured weapon for purposes of iterative attacks, and the rest of your natural attacks as secondary natural attacks", is "your BAB is congruent to 1 mod 5 again" any more satisfying a class feature than "you get another +1 to AC"?

I like Shifter's Fury for it's ability to open up options for forms that are limited to one natural attack a round. Much more substantive then a +1 to AC, but don't get me wrong I appreciate every +1. You can make a really crazy trip build using wolf form and if wild shape wasn't so limited you could make a poison build by turning into various snake forms.

Just open up wild shape to be like the druid's. I want to change into a large fire elemental and then using chimeric aspect give myself bite, claws, and pounce like a tiger. Or wild shape into a lion and apply the falcon aspect to give myself flight and talons and BAM I'm a griffon.

I really, really want this.

I believe you guys are referring to my doc when talking about dead levels so I'm reposting it for reference (I also did a couple tweaks in presentation): Updated Shifter.

In my opinion there's roughly about 5 dead levels that needs attention and a few flaccid levels discarding what you get from aspects (which are not that impressive to me). 7th, 8th, 12th, 13th, and 17th levels are pretty much dead levels. The increases you get from Shifter Claws and Defensive Instinct leaves you wanting more.

You can easily do something like this
7th level: Bonus feat
8th level: Venom Immunity
12th level: Bonus Feat
13th level: A Thousand Faces
17th level: Bonus feat

There done. Now work on wild shape a bit more. Unchain it from the aspects and make the aspects abilities you can apply to your natural and wild shape form. Then chimeric aspect makes more sense. You would honestly not change the word count that much.

Painful Bugger wrote:

Whoops! Posted this in the wrong thread!

Hey guys I went and collected all the changes and errata that The Shifter went through and applied it to the class. Basically it's a single document you can refer to when you want to look up the Shifter without referring to various different sources until all the changes are final. I'll update it as more updates roll on through. I'm debating adding the errata'd archetypes to the doc.

Here's the link for you to view at your leisure: Updated Shifter.

This is very helpful! Thank you Painful Bugger.

You're very welcome.

There is no human FCB listed in that document.

Thanks for the catch, I just copy pasted that section since nothing changed for them and missed the humans.

It looks like the Shifter is really coming along. I think if they fill the currently dead levels with extra feats or abilities this will be a really fun class to play. As Mark was kind enough to show, there is a ton of potential in the form of new aspects that I'm sure Paizo and third party publishers will build on.

Aspects be fun but I still think they should be something that gets tacked on. The Shifter really needs a Wild Shape not limited by what aspects they've selected. All that really does is make people choose a small number of forms. I really just want a Wild Shape that is functionally very similar to druid with a progression like Beast Shape I, Beast Shape II, Beast Shape III, and so on.

I would want wild shape to work like a druid's and aspects to work something like this (gonna just grab the bear aspect since it's the simplest):

Bear Aspect:
1st level: You gain a bite attack (1d8 damage), two claw attacks (1d6 damage), and the grab ability with your claw attacks.
8th level: You gain Improved Natural Attack (Bestiary 315) with your claws.
15th level: The critical multiplier of your claw attack increases by 1 (×2 becomes ×3) to a maximum of ×4, and you gain the Awesome Blow feat (Bestiary 314).

And have them all work on that level with you being able to slap them onto your base form or whatever form you happen to be in at the time. So you can do something like turn into a small earth elemental shaped like a bear with a bite and claws.

Whoops! Posted this in the wrong thread!

Hey guys I went and collected all the changes and errata that The Shifter went through and applied it to the class. Basically it's a single document you can refer to when you want to look up the Shifter without referring to various different sources until all the changes are final. I'll update it as more updates roll on through. I'm debating adding the errata'd archetypes to the doc.

Here's the link for you to view at your leisure: Updated Shifter.

Painful Bugger wrote:

Is it so hard to just have all the archetypes be based off the various shapechange spell chains. Oozemorph is cool but just make it a shifter that changes into a ooze to save everyone the headache and grant him ooze abilities.

The problem with this approach is that archetypes essentially become same-y with themselves, and makes the Shifter not only a bland class, but also very bland archetypes as well, and is honestly why Druid archetypes are largely ignored.

For example, all of the "X Shaman" archetypes could have just been condensed into a single archetype that has better wording to cover the general idea of what the archetype could and could not permit, and allow creative space for other, cooler and more useful archetypes.

Following that formula, letting Shifters shape into whatever they want (they just don't get the Aspect benefits) could go a long way to solving the shoehorning problem the class has as a whole.

The creature shamans are bland. Mostly cause they avoid creature group types and narrowly focus to heavily on a theme groups like snakes or avians. The only ones that are I think are fun are those that specifically focus on a type of creature like the cave druid for oozes and goliath druid for giants. I think we can get an entire suite of archetypes like this with changes to other parts of the class to feel unique.

And I agree on the last point. I keep saying just let the Shifter have druid wildshape and let the aspects be something you can add to your wildshape form with the chimeric aspect ability. Yes I would very much like to be a crocodile with antlers while chasing you down with echolocation or a fire elemental in the shape of a tiger or a treant that looks like a bear.

Is it so hard to just have all the archetypes be based off the various shapechange spell chains. Oozemorph is cool but just make it a shifter that changes into a ooze to save everyone the headache and grant him ooze abilities.

Yeah. The update helps clarify some of the readability issues the archetype had, but it still suffers pretty heavily from not being great.

Low level gameplay in particular is still almost unmanageable when you get 1 un-incrementable hour of shapeshifting per day... which is the only time you can speak or hold objects.

As it stands I think the archetype needs to either lose all of its restrictions (so speech and full item/equipment usage regardless of form) or it really needs some sort of wow factor to make putting up with is various issues worthwhile.

I do like the ability to make iterative attacks with a natural weapon though. Though that class feature ends up highlighting another problem with natural attacks in that if you don't have a lot of them enhancing gets expensive since AOMF comes at a premium.

If they're making Wild Shape a number of hours equal to your level + wisdom modifier then you might as well give them Wild Shape at first level. Beast Shape I at first level is +2 strength and +2 natural armor isn't out of the ordinary from 1st to 3rd compared to other classes abilities. And the fly speed and maneuverability isn't out there when we have Strix, Wyvarans, and Gathlains flying about.

Painful Bugger wrote:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

SNIP

I'm updating the class table: New Shifter Class Table 2.0

So if we are still trying to eliminate all "dead" levels, we would want to add one ability that is granted at 7th level and scales up at 12th and 17th levels one one ability that is granted at 13th level. 13th level might be the level for combining major aspects. Maybe 7th/12th/17th level grants access to major aspect forms equivalent to the Monstrous Physique spells?

And, based on precedent for existing archetypes, I don't see the point in nitpicking about dead levels created by peculiarities of archetype class feature replacements.

Bonus Feats would fit quite nicely there. Instead of placing A Thousand Faces at 18th level they can instead move it down to 13th level just like the Druid. Placing A Thousand Faces so far up there makes it really limiting.

Shifter' Fury is a step in the right direction. The change to Final Aspect should really be in the wild shape description much like the notification that you wild shape at will at 20th level in the druid's wild shape description.

I still really rather the Shifter had a flexible Wild Shape like the Druid and have the major forms be something you can tack on. And then make Chimeric Aspect let you combine one of your major forms with wildshape or let you combine multiple major form aspects at once.

Painful Bugger wrote:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

As promised last week, we have made a few more adjustments to the shifter, adding a few abilities to cover up some empty levels on the class, and giving it a few boosts to its ability.

We have also put out an errata on the Oozemorph Shifter, covering some common questions with that archetype.

You can find those changes right here.

I want to thank all of you for your continued thoughts on this class. I also want to thank the vast majority of you for remaining civil and productive in these discussions.

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design
Paizo Inc.

I'm updating the class table: New Shifter Class Table 2.0

(FWIW, I’m getting a “permission denied” message when I click that link.)

Sorry, fixed that.

As promised last week, we have made a few more adjustments to the shifter, adding a few abilities to cover up some empty levels on the class, and giving it a few boosts to its ability.

We have also put out an errata on the Oozemorph Shifter, covering some common questions with that archetype.

You can find those changes right here.

I want to thank all of you for your continued thoughts on this class. I also want to thank the vast majority of you for remaining civil and productive in these discussions.

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design
Paizo Inc.

I'm updating the class table: New Shifter Class Table 2.0

Just throwing this out there. If you re-arrange the Shifter class table like the monk's with the recent changes kept in mind we get something that looks like this: Shifter Table.

There's something like 8 to 10 dead levels depending on how you look at it. If you were to include druid wild shape options then that drops to about 6 dead levels. That's enough to throw in bonus feats and some 1 to 2 line abilities like maybe the ability to wild shape faster or some immunities. If you're feeling adventurous expand the wild shape options at higher levels.

Also what do you mean with full might of the druid? I feel like most people were pointing out just using obvious druid buffs like strongjaw, magic fang greater, barkskin and the likes, same thing for the shifting hunter. There doesn't seem like any TOP TIER OMG LOOK AT THAT RULES MASTERY builds needed to surpass the shifter, just the same stat array and using the obvious basic buff spells seems to outfight a shifter.

To be honest the druid really starts outpacing the shifter once they have access to Beast Shape III at 8th level for wildshape. The amount of options available for in and out of combat is quite diverse. There's a array of creatures you can build around for combat and there's plenty of diminutive and huge creatures that can be used for a wide variety of reasons.

No mounts? Turn in to something big enough to carry the whole party. If you have 20 Str and you turn into a elephant you can carry 1836 lbs easy as a light load and 5520 lbs as a heavy load. Can easily drag 27600 lbs so just buy a cart and hook you up whenever you start going on a journey. Wanna spy? Well how you wanna do it. There's an entire suite of options. Endless possibilities.

Something like that, no spellcasting, cause it's easier to remember creatures then the myriad spells that are out there is probably what people are wanting.

Or just give them the druid's wildshape options and have aspects be something you can tack on a form. This way "chimeric" aspect will truely be chimeric.

Curious lack of Intimidate as a class skill. Also you might as well treat Defensive Instinct and Shifter Claw Increase as a single class skill one time then the Shifter looks mighty empty. A lot of dead or near-dead levels. Step in the right direction but I think you need a lot of work done to improve the class. Especially with wildshape options and aspect abilities.

Just a thought, if I was a 20th level wizard I know I wouldn't want to rule a country. I have enough power to be free from the normal laws of the land and I can choose to interact with society how I please. Doesn't mean I'll be amoral monster, just means I'm one the few that are truely free. If I choose to rule a country I'll have a great deal of responsibility, when that powerful that must feel like you're bound by the heaviest chains in the world.

In Discworld wizards are all power-hungry, back-stabbing jerks that spend so much time fighting one another that everyone breathes a sigh of relief that they spend more time offing one another for power instead of ruling countries. It should be noted in Discworld the plural of the word wizard is WAR.

Saturday night was the first time in awhile since my group got together and had a chance to game. I introduced them to the Legendary Shifter playtest. They didn't get a chance to read the full class as they were more interested in gaming but they had a few things to say about the new Shifter Shape ability and the Dragon Touched archetype. I've left some comments on the playtest document for them as I've been designated as the one to convey their messages in their place, curse of the Forever DM I suppose.

Mixed reactions but my player Joe was very pleased with the increased flexibility in wildshape. Although I wish the duration was longer, I maybe on the way of being won over when I saw Joe's eyes light up.

Painful Bugger wrote:

Paizo ate my post

I like that you added a bite attack but have you thought about adding additional types of natural attacks that can be gained as you level so that the shifter can diversify it's attacks? Maybe gain a tail slap or a gore?

Look at some of the aspects. The narwhal, for one, gives you a gore attack

I saw, but I'm not exactly keen on aspects granting natural attacks.

Paizo ate my post

I like that you added a bite attack but have you thought about adding additional types of natural attacks that can be gained as you level so that the shifter can diversify it's attacks? Maybe gain a tail slap or a gore?