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Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber. Organized Play Member. 634 posts (772 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. No wishlists. 15 Organized Play characters. 1 alias.


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Grand Lodge

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I feel like any great divergence in the lists is a bad place to squint right now, something to expand on with each supplement instead.

Grand Lodge

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+10 PER level? How would this work at any level?

Grand Lodge

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Themetricsystem wrote:

Is ANY PC still viable if they have no Wealth by Level to spend?

Is a Wizard who had his Spellbook stolen or Destroyed viable?

Is a Druid who is shackled in metal armor viable?

Is a Monk versus flying enemies viable?

...

This argument is painful.

Is a naked level 15 cleric still useful to a level 15 party? I dare say they could easily be.

Is a wizard with not a single gold spent (the spellbook is free) still useful? Bet they can be.

Most spellcasters can fake it without spent gold.

Martials cannot. Is this even really a debate? Is this questioned?

Grand Lodge

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Not getting it. Monsters are monsters. If they want an NPC in an AP to have the effects of spell A, Spell B and Spell C, they can, at this point, say they have them. Pre-buffing won't be a thing they have to worry about.

Heck, an NPC spellcaster might have a special one action move that they can do and a huge burst of sparkles happens as an array of things happens to them.

How balanced will it be? That's a different thing and up to the adventure designer, but saying you can't do it is silly.

Grand Lodge

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A legendary sword is +5 to hit, and no one's really complaining about that part, I think? You do want that.

Grand Lodge

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You also don't need to make OGL products if you are making it for DM's guild.

That aside, I pray that all books Paizo makes remain OGL. WotCs 'only the core stuff is OGL' model is irksome.

Grand Lodge

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
David Silver - Ponyfinder wrote:
...
Assuming a 5 person party, sure. The game assumes 4 people though, so it should be 1/4, but otherwise yes.

What? No. You, the fighter, are dealing 1/5th your expected damage. You can't help this, your weapon lost 1/5th of its dice.

Grand Lodge

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There is no such thing as a caster level.

Grand Lodge

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Boots of elvenkind, whenever you would be slowed by difficult terrain or trigger a reaction due to movement, you spend a resonance to ignore the triggering thing until you complete the action you were in the middle of.

Numbers given? None.

Grand Lodge

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That does answer one of the big questions. However, is an Asleep/Unconscious person willing? I would think so?

Still doesn't cover picking them up, and their bulk remains an inferred number in an unrelated effect.

Grand Lodge

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Tholo, that's great, except it still doesn't, by the rules, let you actually pick someone up. Can you stand in their square? Are they occupying their square? Do they make the square they're in difficult terrain, or basically don't exist for sake of movement, or block it all?

Grand Lodge

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A thousand guesses, but this really shouldn't be a GM discretion kind of 'thing'.

Grand Lodge

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You are Asleep or Unconscious. Can someone pick you up? How can people interact with you? Are you still considered a person, occupying a square and refusing others to pass? Are you effectively an object?

This is not really optional. Please. I have assumptions, as I'm sure most people who read this do, but it really should be in the book.

Grand Lodge

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Being able to set your DC seems to be the most elegant answer, in my limited view. If you can decide what level to check against, depending on if you're time crunched or not, that would change things nicely. Then even a level 1 healer can go for broke, and accept the risk involved, or a level 20 healer can gently kiss the papercut a random peasant has and cure it without thought.

Grand Lodge

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So, playing through part 3 as a level 7 paladin.

I decided 'I will be a mountain. None shall assail me!' and I focused on defenses. Heavy armor, heavy shield, put the spirit in the shield, of course. I went with the lion shield, cause why not? It's like a durable one with an extra option.

I also have a hammer, and I used ancestries to be good at that dang hammer.

Fight! I'm accurate with the hammer. I keep my shield up. I'm blocking attacks at my friends, shield blocking for myself. I block some attacks entirely, those feel super great.

Oh no, my shield is dented, what will I do?! Oh yeah, master crafter, quick repair, give me literally a minute. Alright, back in working order.

The GM was annoyed at how hard I was to hit.

There was a sorcerer next to me. He was much easier to hit. Didn't stop me from thrusting my shield in the way 1/rd, but he was much easier to hit.

Just saying, for all the talk, there is a difference between 'guy who specialized in a thing' and 'guy who did not' in actual play.

Grand Lodge

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Since when did armor absorb hits like that?

Grand Lodge

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I would love an official poll on that.

Grand Lodge

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magnuskn wrote:
thejeff wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Yeah. It always seems to boil down to the same conversation.

Martial: I'm jelly of casters! They can do more stuff than me! Nerf nerf nerf!
Caster: Well, how about the developers give you more stuff you can do, instead of nerfing me?
Martials: NO! Anime! Anime BAD!

I don't think the lines are that clearly drawn.

Those arguments exist, but it's not clear it's the martial players yelling about anime and the casters suggesting boosting martials.

At least from my side this has been the argument I've been getting out of the last weeks. I'm not sure there is a single fan of casters who has said that martials don't need buffs (although the nature of what those buffs should be is different between people), but there have been plenty of martials fans who want casters to be nerfed and who are vehemently against martials being buffed with abilities which are not strictly mundane in nature.

I remain firmly in the 'give martials magic' camp. The entire world is magic. We wield magic no matter our class. Even the most superstitious barbarian is going to be crowned with magical items.

Can we stop pretending martials shouldn't have it? Their magic should reflect them properly, but this insistence on mundane techniques for martials baffles me.

Grand Lodge

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Let's keep this grounded, and with current nerfs. How about.... level... 5.

I picked that level without checking spells, which I will do now.

Alright, so you finish bopping a bad guy, good job, using what powers you have to win combat. We all have those, not interested how you did it, it's done.

You find out the king is going to be murdered, gasp! You set off to reach him as quickly as possible.

As a fighter: You can hustle to get there faster, hurry!
As a wizard or cleric or druid: You can do that too, but you also send a dream message (level 3 spell) to send a direct warning to the king and/or anyone else you may know that's close enough to act while you're hurrying over there.
As a bard/sorcerer with occult spells/druid: No horse around? No big deal, you summon one to get there faster, go go go!
If you can't make a horse, you can probably longstrider yourself for +10 feet all day long at this point easily.

Who has more options? This was done with 5'sh minutes of glancing at the spell lists. Narrative power, spellcasters have it, fighters don't. Both can win fights, but when the fight is over...

Grand Lodge

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Martial: MY power is getting a bunch of less-able people to hang around.

Spellcaster: I can step through walls when I'm not skipping through dimensions.

Martial: Pfft, lame.

Grand Lodge

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Are you alright? You sound hurt.

In what way were martials 'brought up' in narrative power?

Grand Lodge

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Is this a unique thing to some martial class? An edge they have that, say, a wizard couldn't get without multiclassing feats?

It used to be a thing. Get to high enough level fighter, you got respect, and people just kinda showed up, eager to be led by you.

Doesn't really help my ranger though, still, sure, that's a step in the right direction. I'd still recommend such a leader plunk down a skill-up in diplomacy and other things to actually lead his folks to victory and around problems that will arise. Even Conan took the time to learn how to use his voice to effect when his sword wouldn't cut the problem alone.

Grand Lodge

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And when the fight is over? When your problems are past 'deal damage to the thing and not die', what then? That is where I point at as a problem.

Narrative power, I repeat.

Combat power, we all have that. It's not the bone of contention, at least for me.

Grand Lodge

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So how was this in PF1? Since I could make a spellcasting rogue there with all the features given out.

I could also make one with rage.

I could make a barbarian with dex to damage if I wanted.

What you can't do right now, in the core book, is less telling than what you _can_ do, which is plenty. It will only get wider, not narrower.

Grand Lodge

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I... think you are under the delusion that I'm making things up. This is the current system. I'm not proposing anything, just saying how it is.

Stop defending the past.

Grand Lodge

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A wizard, druid, or sorcerer or other spellcaster can do it at level 9.

Narrative power.

Can martials keep up? I say they can not.

Grand Lodge

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Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Yeah I'm with Lore on this one. If you have a class system where everything is available to everyone else and everyone can do the same things...then frankly you missed the point of a class system.

Barbarians get rage and rage related things because that is what Barbarians do. That is their identity and the reason someone devoted a bunch of man hours into making that class and other classes don't get that (instead they get their own things unique to them). It's the same with Rogues, Wizards, Paladins, and every other class that's been deigned to exist. How wide or narrow the niches are is up to the designer, but if you have a class system, you're going to get constraints and opportunity costs (and conversely unique benefits) for going the way you did. That's the system at work and a feature of it, not a bug.

Sure, a rogue can't rage, by default. They will spend feats to do so. Then they can.

This is not the end of the world.

If my Fist Mage wants to go into fits of rage, they will spend the feats, and then do so.

This is still not the end of the world.

Grand Lodge

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Niche protection can find a comfortable place to curl up and wither.

There's nothing wrong with a sword-swinging rogue, or a fist-mage, or a ranger that dabbles in the occult in his strange path. The idea of 'protecting' the core archetypes is laughable in my view. We've come some distance since their inception.

Grand Lodge

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A car has fallen over, pinning a random kid, oh no!

Everyone rushes over to help. This is gonna be a hard task. Who thought filling a car with cement was a GOOD idea?!

Bob isn't the strongest there, but he finds a good spot to wriggle under and apply good pressure at an ideal angle, he's helping!

Joe isn't the strongest, but he spots something in the way and heaves it out of the way while everyone else is working, making it easier, good job Joe!

Tim isn't the strongest, but he holds the part just over the kid so it doesn't crush the tyke more than it already has.

George is the strongest! With all the help, he barely heaves the car up and over with a grunt of effort and bulging veins.

They did it, yay! Everyone critted, except george.

What's the problem again?

Grand Lodge

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Anime as an adjective is annoying outside of describing animation styles. There are few things done in anime that aren't done outside of anime.

Grand Lodge

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Lyee, that's totally fine. Now tell me how to be a demigod fighter. Or an angel summoner-tier ranger.

Grand Lodge

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Agreed, but at no point should some of the players be on one power level and others be at a completely different power level.

Grand Lodge

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Then you should stick to lower levels.

Grand Lodge

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Glad you brought that up. Why can a level 1 kobold scout create a trap AND move as an action, but rangers have to blow a feat and wait for level 8 to be able to make a trap in 3 actions, still unable (and always so) to replicate the feat of the level 1 kobold?

Grand Lodge

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I really like Tarik's take. Pick a power level, stick to it.

If someone, anyone, is allowed to rip apart reality at level 16+, everyone should be able to do that kind of thing at level 16+, or where is the balance? It may not be precisely the same mechanic, and why should it be, but it should be in the same league.

Are these super humans, gods in flesh, or just 'exceptional people'. Pretty sure, even in their nerfed state, spellcasters exceed 'exceptional people'.

Let's bring martials up.

Grand Lodge

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graystone wrote:
What do we want Martial characters to be capable of?: I want them to start an 'anime' and get better from there. I could care less what is realistic. What I want is what would look awesome in a movie/show I was watching. 'move, swing sword, swing sword' isn't exactly nail biting, edge of your seat excitement. Now let me grab a goblin by the neck and beat another goblin to death with the still struggling first goblin and that's something I'd want to watch.

Yes, please. More of this.

I want to kick a door open not just as a means of entry but also a surprise ranged attack on something inside the room that I might not have even known was there until I kicked the door.

I want to sleep with my hand on my sword and bound to my feet in a flurry of attacks if an enemy comes near before they even notice I've spotted them.

I want to suddenly stop in the middle of a tunnel and crouch down, shield raising and my eyes set on a blank spot in space. I can hear it breathing/feel its energy/notice the ripple in the air/whatever.

I want to grab a portal that's disgorging demons and try to brute force it shut. A wizard or cleric is likely a better call for the job, but I'm there, and I'm doing it. It may take ten times the effort and three times as long, but I'm doing it, because I'm a badass martial who will win by his own hands.

Why can't we embrace this?

Grand Lodge

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Sounds like an exception, not a rule. Let us not muddle the rule. Shieldblock, 1 dent.

If your 3 hardness shield blocks 6 damage, it takes 3, and is dented. You take 3.

It does not take 2 dents and you take 3, since that would be _9_ total damage.

Grand Lodge

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Lausth wrote:
Corwin Icewolf wrote:

Basically, I think it's a dependency issue. Some of us like playing characters with a really strong independent streak, but that makes no sense if your character is heavily dependent on magic items.

With casters, they can have spells prepared for most situations, and magic items end up just feeling like an extension of what your character is already capable of, especially if your character can craft magic items. But with martials that magic sword is proof that some of your damage came from a wizard, and in 2e, thanks to the crazy magic item dice bonuses, it's proof that most of your damage comes from a wizard.

I got to ask this. Do you think wizard or sorcerer is the source of all magic? What if fighter could forge magic weapons? Would that solve your issue? I am preaparing for mythic campaign as a gm. The issue that you pointed out is to be honest alien to me. I never had a player who had issues with magic items otherthan the WBL limiting those which is solveble. I am seeing a lot of people who dislikes magic items and i think this forum has a chance to effect my table. So at which point magic stops representing the wizard? Why is it so bad to need magic items in a high magic game where magic is everywhere otherthan the obvious WBL issue. Is it possiable to add magic to your martials in way that wont make you think the wizard? If it is possiable than how would you like it to be?

I am seeing a lot of people who dislikes magic items and they just say i want to do this x thing while some of them hate anime,some of them hate magic,some of them hate otherthings. You see there isnt exactly many things to go with here. Whatever you do you upset someone.

I would like my 14th level fighter to have some abilities inherent to his being that he/she could draw on even if stripped naked and thrown in demon's pit.

This is not the case. On the plus, he is at last not hopeless at skill checks, +14, yeah! But basically any caster will be better than him. A level 10 wizard or cleric or druid could easily exert more narrative impact.

Heck, the level 10 spellcaster could be a fine opponent for the level 14 fighter, provided they never tried to get in a direct fight, and why would they? They can make the fighter's life miserable without a problem.

Grand Lodge

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The big bad is dead, you all threw your various talents at it, good job.

Now the treasure is floating at the top of the room. The walls are smooth and slick, and there's nothing to grab onto on the ceiling either. What do?!

Spellcasters have a lot of tools to approach this problem, possibly even just flying out there to snatch it.

Fighter, significantly less so (Can I shoot an arrow at the treasure?).

Oh no, the King is possessed and is currently a huge demon. No problem, we smack him until he's defeated, good job, but we still have a demon-king. How do we get him back to normal king?

On the plus side here, maybe a ritual in PF2? A fighter could maybe help with that.

Oh no, we are lost in the wilderness! Too bad survival can only help one person at a time. Oh wait, the spellcaster has this handled.

In order to defeat the true source of evil, we must confront it in its fell plane! Anyone bring a spare extraplanar gate?

My paladin is being attacked by a swarm of flying harpies with bows. How doomed is he/she? Can they even strike back without surrendering a large portion of their power in the process? Let's replace this with a bestial barbarian. Good luck getting your claws on them, sucker.

We hear something coming! The ranger is a trapmaster, he'll lay some traps. Wait, due to a want for simulationist realism (only when martials are concerned), he cannot get any out fast enough to matter before they bad guys show up a round or two later.

My vote is for elevating martials. This is a magic world, let them magic in their actions. Let the ranger throw down traps as casually as a fighter swings his sword. A fighter being able to swing so hard they can hit things at a distance? Love it, more please.

Can my barbarian cleave the nature of reality itself and rip open bloody portals between worlds? Sign me right the heck up.

I do not comprehend the hatred of non-mythological martials, especially past the low levels. As the wizard advances past magic missile, the martial should also be unfolding into increasing levels of awesome.

Or so I say, but I'm just a neigh-sayer.

Grand Lodge

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Potions. Take it off those and most of my issues evaporate. Were potions ever really a problem? This includes elixirs and mutagens and other one-and-done items.

For wands? I'm actually alright with it there. For staves? Sure. For basically anything but potions, which are already, economically speaking, horrible. Give them a purpose. Let them always work. Then having a spare potion is a really good idea. Out of resonance? Chug the potion.

Grand Lodge

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I am entirely on board with the idea of shield potency runes that enhance it on a scaling scale of sturdiness. Sturdy shields are functional but boring, make them a rune and let shields join the rest of equipment (armor/weapons) in the same basic mechanic.

Grand Lodge

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I want to put in my two copper to say can we not nerf clerics? I want everyone to be this awesome. Raise the others up. Cleric does not need to be lowered. Everyone should shine this bright. They don't. Can we fix that?

Grand Lodge

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Igwilly wrote:
Alyran wrote:
Igwilly wrote:
Alyran wrote:
David Silver - Ponyfinder wrote:

I played an alchemist and I reported I had not run out of resonance. I technically hadn't. I had leftover doodads. I never got to use them. The few I had, mostly got wasted due to OTHER people being out of resonance. I never felt good throwing a bomb, because friends were there, waiting to be splashed on. I mostly hit things with my torch.

Resonance did not make my game more fun.

We spent 4 healing potions (elixirs of life) on someone and they gained 3 hit points total.

Resonance did not make my game more fun. It actively detracted from it.

I agree that resonance has some problems, specifically with connection to the alchemist and their abilities. I don't think a class can reasonably run on this resource without a large amount of extra for that resource.

But this person is cursed. Nothing can help them.

I'm trying to think how that is actually possible. A Minor Elixir of Life grants 1d6 HP. The worst case is 4 HP for 4 of these.

I believe in anything else, though, but I just got really curious about this case.
Drink 3, roll 1s. Drink the 4th, fail the overdraw roll. Not an easy thing to do, but certainly possible.
Thanks ^^

Try failing the overdraw 3 times and then succeeding, woo, 4.

Grand Lodge

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I played an alchemist and I reported I had not run out of resonance. I technically hadn't. I had leftover doodads. I never got to use them. The few I had, mostly got wasted due to OTHER people being out of resonance. I never felt good throwing a bomb, because friends were there, waiting to be splashed on. I mostly hit things with my torch.

Resonance did not make my game more fun.

We spent 4 healing potions (elixirs of life) on someone and they gained 3 hit points total.

Resonance did not make my game more fun. It actively detracted from it.

Grand Lodge

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Are you complaining at a random board poster for saying the devs made their choice? If you want to argue it _should_ be a certain way, fine, but it isn't at this time. It is quite clear what it is, right now.

Hardness 3 shield, someone taps me for 3 damage, I shield block, 1 dent.

Someone taps me for 5 damage, 1 dent, I take 2.

Someone taps me for 6 damage, 1 dent, I take 3.

Someone taps me for 1000 damage, 1 dent, I fall over, owie.

Grand Lodge

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Shield block specifically says the shield takes up to its hardness, end.

Damaging an object notes you can cause two dents.

These two work together just fine. The shield can only take up to its hardness. This causes a dent. The shield can never take two dents from shield blocking.

If a creature has an ability to target the shield specifically, 9 damage will wreck your 3 hardness shield. Other than that, shield blocking, your shield is getting 1 dent at most.

Grand Lodge

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If we were to use the latter, I'd insist the shield also STOP the full amount its taking. If something smashes through your 3 hardness shield in one hit, it better be stopping that 6 damage that it took, or the damage just got increased for no reason.

Grand Lodge

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Why... did you lower alchemist formulas from 8 to 4? They're already hurting so bad... and you drive the dagger in deeper. Just... why?

Grand Lodge

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Mechalibur wrote:

Yeah this definitely needs some clarifications. While any object reduces damage dealt to it by its hardness, the rules text for shield block reads:

"Your shield prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to its Hardness— the shield takes this damage instead, possibly becoming dented or broken."

But how would it possibly become dented or broken if it reduces damage dealt to itself by its hardness?

A shield, when shield blocking, will only block up to its hardness.

This is enough to dent it.
This will never be enough to double dent it. You cannot be critted to shield explosion, ever. It's just not in the rules since there is no sunder move just yet.

Big bad goes SMASH 30 damage.

Your shield has a hardness of, say, 8, you take 22, the shield takes a dent, end.
The shield can do this a few more times before it gives up the ghost. You can just choose to stop shield blocking when its given all it can before it explodes. It never HAS to explode. Take your extra HP, thank your shield as you repair it.

Grand Lodge

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doc the grey wrote:


I suggest 2nd ed goes back to what was used in the previous system. Call Alchemist feats discoveries, rogue feats talents, Oracle revelations, etc. I know they are essentially balanced like feats and that many of us figure that out eventually, but keeping them discrete and separated as such helps new players keep them separate in their mind and doesn't run the risk of overwhelming them as much when they go to look up "class feats" or "ancestry feats" for the first few times.

Keep the naming separate and lessen the risk of losing new players to a raised skill floor of memorization and learned distinction.

Please no. Just, no.

If you want to call class feats class 'talents', sure, I'm for that. But making each class's thing be something else? This benefits no one.

Ultimately, I am not bothered my feats.

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