This argument is painful.
Is a naked level 15 cleric still useful to a level 15 party? I dare say they could easily be.
Is a wizard with not a single gold spent (the spellbook is free) still useful? Bet they can be.
Most spellcasters can fake it without spent gold.
Martials cannot. Is this even really a debate? Is this questioned?
Not getting it. Monsters are monsters. If they want an NPC in an AP to have the effects of spell A, Spell B and Spell C, they can, at this point, say they have them. Pre-buffing won't be a thing they have to worry about.
Heck, an NPC spellcaster might have a special one action move that they can do and a huge burst of sparkles happens as an array of things happens to them.
How balanced will it be? That's a different thing and up to the adventure designer, but saying you can't do it is silly.
You are Asleep or Unconscious. Can someone pick you up? How can people interact with you? Are you still considered a person, occupying a square and refusing others to pass? Are you effectively an object?
This is not really optional. Please. I have assumptions, as I'm sure most people who read this do, but it really should be in the book.
Being able to set your DC seems to be the most elegant answer, in my limited view. If you can decide what level to check against, depending on if you're time crunched or not, that would change things nicely. Then even a level 1 healer can go for broke, and accept the risk involved, or a level 20 healer can gently kiss the papercut a random peasant has and cure it without thought.
So, playing through part 3 as a level 7 paladin.
I decided 'I will be a mountain. None shall assail me!' and I focused on defenses. Heavy armor, heavy shield, put the spirit in the shield, of course. I went with the lion shield, cause why not? It's like a durable one with an extra option.
I also have a hammer, and I used ancestries to be good at that dang hammer.
Fight! I'm accurate with the hammer. I keep my shield up. I'm blocking attacks at my friends, shield blocking for myself. I block some attacks entirely, those feel super great.
Oh no, my shield is dented, what will I do?! Oh yeah, master crafter, quick repair, give me literally a minute. Alright, back in working order.
The GM was annoyed at how hard I was to hit.
There was a sorcerer next to me. He was much easier to hit. Didn't stop me from thrusting my shield in the way 1/rd, but he was much easier to hit.
Just saying, for all the talk, there is a difference between 'guy who specialized in a thing' and 'guy who did not' in actual play.
I remain firmly in the 'give martials magic' camp. The entire world is magic. We wield magic no matter our class. Even the most superstitious barbarian is going to be crowned with magical items.
Can we stop pretending martials shouldn't have it? Their magic should reflect them properly, but this insistence on mundane techniques for martials baffles me.
Let's keep this grounded, and with current nerfs. How about.... level... 5.
I picked that level without checking spells, which I will do now.
Alright, so you finish bopping a bad guy, good job, using what powers you have to win combat. We all have those, not interested how you did it, it's done.
You find out the king is going to be murdered, gasp! You set off to reach him as quickly as possible.
As a fighter: You can hustle to get there faster, hurry!
Who has more options? This was done with 5'sh minutes of glancing at the spell lists. Narrative power, spellcasters have it, fighters don't. Both can win fights, but when the fight is over...
Is this a unique thing to some martial class? An edge they have that, say, a wizard couldn't get without multiclassing feats?
It used to be a thing. Get to high enough level fighter, you got respect, and people just kinda showed up, eager to be led by you.
Doesn't really help my ranger though, still, sure, that's a step in the right direction. I'd still recommend such a leader plunk down a skill-up in diplomacy and other things to actually lead his folks to victory and around problems that will arise. Even Conan took the time to learn how to use his voice to effect when his sword wouldn't cut the problem alone.
So how was this in PF1? Since I could make a spellcasting rogue there with all the features given out.
I could also make one with rage.
I could make a barbarian with dex to damage if I wanted.
What you can't do right now, in the core book, is less telling than what you _can_ do, which is plenty. It will only get wider, not narrower.
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Sure, a rogue can't rage, by default. They will spend feats to do so. Then they can.
This is not the end of the world.
If my Fist Mage wants to go into fits of rage, they will spend the feats, and then do so.
This is still not the end of the world.
Niche protection can find a comfortable place to curl up and wither.
There's nothing wrong with a sword-swinging rogue, or a fist-mage, or a ranger that dabbles in the occult in his strange path. The idea of 'protecting' the core archetypes is laughable in my view. We've come some distance since their inception.
A car has fallen over, pinning a random kid, oh no!
Everyone rushes over to help. This is gonna be a hard task. Who thought filling a car with cement was a GOOD idea?!
Bob isn't the strongest there, but he finds a good spot to wriggle under and apply good pressure at an ideal angle, he's helping!
Joe isn't the strongest, but he spots something in the way and heaves it out of the way while everyone else is working, making it easier, good job Joe!
Tim isn't the strongest, but he holds the part just over the kid so it doesn't crush the tyke more than it already has.
George is the strongest! With all the help, he barely heaves the car up and over with a grunt of effort and bulging veins.
They did it, yay! Everyone critted, except george.
What's the problem again?
I really like Tarik's take. Pick a power level, stick to it.
If someone, anyone, is allowed to rip apart reality at level 16+, everyone should be able to do that kind of thing at level 16+, or where is the balance? It may not be precisely the same mechanic, and why should it be, but it should be in the same league.
Are these super humans, gods in flesh, or just 'exceptional people'. Pretty sure, even in their nerfed state, spellcasters exceed 'exceptional people'.
Let's bring martials up.
What do we want Martial characters to be capable of?: I want them to start an 'anime' and get better from there. I could care less what is realistic. What I want is what would look awesome in a movie/show I was watching. 'move, swing sword, swing sword' isn't exactly nail biting, edge of your seat excitement. Now let me grab a goblin by the neck and beat another goblin to death with the still struggling first goblin and that's something I'd want to watch.
Yes, please. More of this.
I want to kick a door open not just as a means of entry but also a surprise ranged attack on something inside the room that I might not have even known was there until I kicked the door.
I want to sleep with my hand on my sword and bound to my feet in a flurry of attacks if an enemy comes near before they even notice I've spotted them.
I want to suddenly stop in the middle of a tunnel and crouch down, shield raising and my eyes set on a blank spot in space. I can hear it breathing/feel its energy/notice the ripple in the air/whatever.
I want to grab a portal that's disgorging demons and try to brute force it shut. A wizard or cleric is likely a better call for the job, but I'm there, and I'm doing it. It may take ten times the effort and three times as long, but I'm doing it, because I'm a badass martial who will win by his own hands.
Why can't we embrace this?
I would like my 14th level fighter to have some abilities inherent to his being that he/she could draw on even if stripped naked and thrown in demon's pit.
This is not the case. On the plus, he is at last not hopeless at skill checks, +14, yeah! But basically any caster will be better than him. A level 10 wizard or cleric or druid could easily exert more narrative impact.
Heck, the level 10 spellcaster could be a fine opponent for the level 14 fighter, provided they never tried to get in a direct fight, and why would they? They can make the fighter's life miserable without a problem.
The big bad is dead, you all threw your various talents at it, good job.
Now the treasure is floating at the top of the room. The walls are smooth and slick, and there's nothing to grab onto on the ceiling either. What do?!
Spellcasters have a lot of tools to approach this problem, possibly even just flying out there to snatch it.
Fighter, significantly less so (Can I shoot an arrow at the treasure?).
Oh no, the King is possessed and is currently a huge demon. No problem, we smack him until he's defeated, good job, but we still have a demon-king. How do we get him back to normal king?
On the plus side here, maybe a ritual in PF2? A fighter could maybe help with that.
Oh no, we are lost in the wilderness! Too bad survival can only help one person at a time. Oh wait, the spellcaster has this handled.
In order to defeat the true source of evil, we must confront it in its fell plane! Anyone bring a spare extraplanar gate?
My paladin is being attacked by a swarm of flying harpies with bows. How doomed is he/she? Can they even strike back without surrendering a large portion of their power in the process? Let's replace this with a bestial barbarian. Good luck getting your claws on them, sucker.
We hear something coming! The ranger is a trapmaster, he'll lay some traps. Wait, due to a want for simulationist realism (only when martials are concerned), he cannot get any out fast enough to matter before they bad guys show up a round or two later.
My vote is for elevating martials. This is a magic world, let them magic in their actions. Let the ranger throw down traps as casually as a fighter swings his sword. A fighter being able to swing so hard they can hit things at a distance? Love it, more please.
Can my barbarian cleave the nature of reality itself and rip open bloody portals between worlds? Sign me right the heck up.
I do not comprehend the hatred of non-mythological martials, especially past the low levels. As the wizard advances past magic missile, the martial should also be unfolding into increasing levels of awesome.
Or so I say, but I'm just a neigh-sayer.
Potions. Take it off those and most of my issues evaporate. Were potions ever really a problem? This includes elixirs and mutagens and other one-and-done items.
For wands? I'm actually alright with it there. For staves? Sure. For basically anything but potions, which are already, economically speaking, horrible. Give them a purpose. Let them always work. Then having a spare potion is a really good idea. Out of resonance? Chug the potion.
Try failing the overdraw 3 times and then succeeding, woo, 4.
I played an alchemist and I reported I had not run out of resonance. I technically hadn't. I had leftover doodads. I never got to use them. The few I had, mostly got wasted due to OTHER people being out of resonance. I never felt good throwing a bomb, because friends were there, waiting to be splashed on. I mostly hit things with my torch.
Resonance did not make my game more fun.
We spent 4 healing potions (elixirs of life) on someone and they gained 3 hit points total.
Resonance did not make my game more fun. It actively detracted from it.
Are you complaining at a random board poster for saying the devs made their choice? If you want to argue it _should_ be a certain way, fine, but it isn't at this time. It is quite clear what it is, right now.
Hardness 3 shield, someone taps me for 3 damage, I shield block, 1 dent.
Someone taps me for 5 damage, 1 dent, I take 2.
Someone taps me for 6 damage, 1 dent, I take 3.
Someone taps me for 1000 damage, 1 dent, I fall over, owie.
Shield block specifically says the shield takes up to its hardness, end.
Damaging an object notes you can cause two dents.
These two work together just fine. The shield can only take up to its hardness. This causes a dent. The shield can never take two dents from shield blocking.
If a creature has an ability to target the shield specifically, 9 damage will wreck your 3 hardness shield. Other than that, shield blocking, your shield is getting 1 dent at most.
A shield, when shield blocking, will only block up to its hardness.This is enough to dent it.
This will never be enough to double dent it. You cannot be critted to shield explosion, ever. It's just not in the rules since there is no sunder move just yet.
Big bad goes SMASH 30 damage.
Your shield has a hardness of, say, 8, you take 22, the shield takes a dent, end.
doc the grey wrote:
Please no. Just, no.
If you want to call class feats class 'talents', sure, I'm for that. But making each class's thing be something else? This benefits no one.
Ultimately, I am not bothered my feats.