Negative Party Prognosis's page

There's no such rule. You don't even need grabbing style to do it, you'd just take a -4 to try it.

Without greater grapple you would have to release one of them and only maintain one grapple, but as long as you have greater grapple you're good to go.

Then with grabbing master you get to damage them both... twice. Once with your standard action to maintain against enemy A, and again with your move action to maintain again enemy B. Excellent action economy.

Also, just before Grabbing Master, Grabbing Drag states you cannot use this feat if you are grappling two targets. So yeah you absolutely can.

Next grab Chokehold and go full Undertaker on them.

EDIT: And before we start talking about how "unfair" this would be, let's look at the feat tax: Improved unarmed strike, improved grapple, greater grapple, grabbing style, grabbing drag, grabbing master, Chokehold.

7 feats that are 100% worthless against any creature more than one size larger than you and also against any creature you can't or wouldn't want to grapple.

This is definately worth noting.

I've actually never had a swashbuckler player, but if I did, I would insist they give me a statement up front, something like:

I will attempt to parry every attack from that glabrezu (or any glabrezu, etc). OR I will attempt to parry the 2nd and 3rd attacks only each round.
I will attempt to only parry the first attack from the enemy fighter.
etc.

And each round they would have to announce something different if they wanted to change, otherwise I'd assume they were using the same strategy as the previous round.

This is the sort of thing though that some computer automation would be great for if there were such a product for it. Swashbuckler player gets an indication that creature X makes an attack against them. Do they want to parry? Yes/no. Then once they respond the rolls are revealed. Then the next attack (if there is one), same thing, and so on.

Or, as the GM, understand that you can't bunch up your rolls vs the Swashbuckler and need to take them one at a time...

OP&R is the ultimate ability of the class and intentionally changes the flow of combat, because in the theater of the mind that's exactly what fighting a swashbuckler would be. They entirely change your course of combat. It's very "Brienne vs Arya." She swings at Arya and Arya simply sidesteps and tings her sword a little for fun... This immediately throws Brienne off. THAT is what fighting a Swashbuckler in pathfinder is supposed to feel like. You are no longer fighting, you're a play-thing for the Swashbuckler to enjoy. It's a HORRIBLY limited class as far as things you can do...if someone is dumb enough to fight a Swashbuckler in melee, let us have our fun! We've been waiting so long for it!

Characters above 12th level will become myths and be remembered centuries after they are dead. At 13th level you are in the realm of Hercules, Lancelot and Roland.

A 12th level barbarian should be able to mow through his enemies. This character is Conan the Barbarian, Not Bob the berserker.

The point I was trying to make ^. The risk of characters struggling through normal encounters should be essentially gone by this point. Encounters at this point are more just story-building for the memoire of your character, other than the End Book encounter or other VERY high-risk encounters.

I had a level 13 Paladin that attended a wedding by chance (happened to be going on in the city we were visiting) and changed the course of the city by simply blessing the wedding party. No official spell, no official rule interaction. I blessed them that the god I was a paladin of be with them. It was flippant of me in random RP, but our GM was like: You're a level 13 paladin.... if you invoke your deity's name she 100% heard you. Now take that comparison and equate it to what a Barbarian of the same level should be able to do.

Ey, first of all thank you for all the responses; i've got no time just now (today i'm gonna be Master until 21.00 and later i will be a player in Council of Thieves the rest of the night), so i've only read and i only want to thank for your ideas, opinions... I will explain and reply, presumably, tomorrow (that i'll have some time to read carefully averything again).

Second of all... i'm very sorry for my english; i'm from Spain and i try to write the better i can; so, if i see i haven't explained anything correctly, i will try to explain it again...
So, i beg for your patience ^^U bacause i've read many interesting things in your posts, but actually i cannot answert to them. Tomorrow i will... that's what i expect ^^U
But thank you very much!!! I really appreciate everything! Wish me luck for a funny game!

BTW,i'm playing since 1994; I've played AD&D, D&D 3rd, D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder 1st; i like to roll the stats and my barbarian just had two 18's; one in strenght (+2 human) and the other one in dextrity... yes, dextrity 18+2 from a belt, 20... this is why he has 6 aoo's

Not directly related to the original post, just as encouragement to you. Your English is very good and it's easy to understand what you're asking. You just happened to give us a full paragraph of multiple questions. It's easier to go one at a time since there's so much rule overlap in Pathfinder.

Also I will say, rolling for stats *Is* more fun, but without question leads to balance problems. You will *always* have players roll really high or really low. We instituted a re-roll rule when it was a multitude of rolls that were too high or too low, before we inevitably houseruled a point-buy system with class-specific bonuses.

In general though, just expect your barbarian to be exceptionally strong in melee. 6 AoO's may be a bit much for him, but hey you rolled the stats. I'd try for a more standardized RAW approach to character creation if "hyper-optimization" or breaking the game is an issue in your group. Very easy to cut that off with a lower point-buy system if you're more interested in making difficult encounters and RP'ing

Coming back on this after thinking about it, I see a rather newish GM in a campaign where you probably generally overpowered your PCs. Either through excess items/gold or character creation or something. You can't expect a campaign to be balanced unless you hold your PCs to the creation standard of that campaign. The moment you give out freebies you open your campaign to a world of over-optimizations. If you're new to GM'ing, never homebrew. You dont even understand the balance of vanilla pathfinder yet, you can't possibly understand allowing 3rd party or homebrewing.

If it's your first campaign, stick to the book as much as you can.

Your player has made a RAW character with RAW feat/ability combinations. If it's *that* overpowered it's because you gave them too much free stuff in gold, ability scores, items, or etc.

Wanted to split up my response, above is RAW, but just some advice and notes...

If players want to make exceptionally deadly/optimized characters, they should be met with exceptionally deadly/optimized encounters or other challenges.

"Then, from now on, the melee enemies are completely castrated from this point?" Yes. Absolutely yes. A level 12 barbarian should be absolutely the apex player vs other melee... That is literally the entire class... Guess what they're on average weak against? Ranged and Magic. Mix up some encounters, he's clearly dumping a lot of feats and powers into being optimized at this. Most Full BAB classes kind've peak right around level 11 when they get their third iterative, some of them at 16, but they're *finally* optimized into what they want to do.

Guess what my Swashbuckler did from levels 11-16? Disarmed, tripped, parried, and generally embarrassed every melee martial encounter we came across. Because that is what the class is meant to do. If he wants to make his barbarian a sunderer, have enemies carry secondary weapons (that are weaker, so he dsn't get *no* benefit from it, but at least it burns his actions that would otherwise be used to literally separate their body into two or more pieces).

Is he breaking "part of the game" as you say... Yes and no? Will you *ever* beat him in melee combat other than in a BBEG encounter? No. Can you throw a caster, a couple ranged enemies, or more reach enemies and natural attacks in the mix to limit his optimization? Yes.

If it's really this "broken," set up a CR equivalent enchanter encounter or two and see if you get lucky and he fails some saves... Having him fight his party under compulsion and utilizing these abilities will make it clearer how broken or not he is.

He's not "breaking the game" any more than a grapple monk is breaking the game. Any more than a "save or die" caster is breaking the game. Any more than any class, well optimized and well played, breaks the game.

1) Once the player's turn is over, his turn is over. He cannot continue his full-round-action attack once it's the enemy's turn when the enemy 5 foot steps back into reach. Once your turn is over, your turn is over, and you can only take immediate actions, free actions, non-actions, AoO's and the such. However, Pushing Assault does not *force* him to move the enemy back, he can choose if he wants to move them back or not.

-Your barbarian can only make a number of AoO's per round equal to 1+Dex Modifier.... how high is his dex? Can't possibly be that good if he's clearly a strength-based character who would also need a high Con... If 6 enemies charge him and he can make 6 AoO's to push them away, then yes, that's exactly what happens.

NPC's/Enemies that aren't mindless creatures shouldn't behave like mindless creatures... IE: If they see the freakishly large Barbarian cleaving other people in two effortlessly, they're not going to run stupidly into the barbarian...

2) Yes it works exactly this way. The enemy attacks, his AoO to sunder happens before that attack, their AoO because he doesn't have improved sunder happens before his sunder attempt, their AoO because of his sunder provokes an AoO from the barbarian which happens first of them all (if the enemies have combat reflexes, and he attempts to sunder on this again, it provokes again) and so on.

Kata Master gains the Panache ability but can use their unarmed strike in place of a light/one-handed piercing weapon....

"For granted swashbuckler class features and deeds." Don't know officially what this means but is there a possibility it's saying this only works for swashbuckler class features and deeds granted as a kata master?

If so, OP&R is not a class feature/deed granted by Kata Master. I would allow it, just playing devil's advocate to prep my defense case for the future if someone wants to be dogmatic about it.

Without a dip/multiclass into swashbuckler to get OP&R the trade off as a high-level Kata Master does *not* seem worth it.

Pretty simple response.... "...Whenever a foe provokes an attack of opportunity." The foe did not provoke an attack of opportunity. Done.

And while not what you asked in your Bonus Questions, here's a feat for you to look into potentially utilizing that can occasionally negate an enemy's ability to full attack you. Difficult Swings

Negative Party Prognosis wrote:

You didn't ask this, but based on your question it might be a good idea to read this over.

Also, since we're online and anonymous, it's the proper time to tell you it's Riposte, not response.

Also Also, make sure you know that each Parry *attempt* costs you an Attack of Opportunity. So you're making only one per round without Combat Reflexes...

Not only does it cost an AOO per parry, it also costs a point of panache per parry..

Yessir, I always made sure this wasn't an issue with Extra Panache since OP&R is the core ability of the Swashbuckler, on top of all the other ways to expend Panache points... So I occasionally forget that people run into this problem

As much as I love RAW, you'll likely find this falls under: GM does his best to balance what you want to do you to avoid the headache. Very few people want to do legitimate accounting work while playing Pathfinder, which is what the rules occasionally require.

You didn't ask this, but based on your question it might be a good idea to read this over.

Also, since we're online and anonymous, it's the proper time to tell you it's Riposte, not response.

Also Also, make sure you know that each Parry *attempt* costs you an Attack of Opportunity. So you're making only one per round without Combat Reflexes...

Tangential Note: I did purchase a lesser caster's tattoo for my PFS cleric around 10th level. Because I could think of three specific cases where I could potentially be kicking myself and saying "If only I had bought a caster's tattoo!"

1. Failed a save vs. hold person/hold monster.
2. Afflicted with deafness.
3. Caught in an area of silence.

I always kept counters to 1 (remove paralysis) and 3 (dispel magic) prepared, but would be unable to cast them without the tattoo. I didn't keep remove blindness/deafness prepared, but I did habitually leave one open spell slot. Would have sucked if I prepared the remove spell once I had time, then failed the 20% chance to lose the spell when casting.

None of those cases actually came up during the rest of his PFS career, but the potential was reasonably high enough to make the tattoo a worthwhile purchase to me.

** spoiler omitted **

In one paragraph you've succinctly explained why I don't play casters. I'm rather good at math, but bad at impulse control and forward-thinking. Swashbuckler and Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor (Ranged only) it is.

EDIT: The "None of those cases actually came up during the rest of his PFS career" is what sends me up a wall. I *HATE* missed utility or gains, even if it's the right play at the time.

I feel like "magical talking fish" is a pretty major addition :P

DungeonmasterCal wrote:

Senko wrote:

Ah another book I don't make a habit of looking in as the GM's I've had get . . . snarky if they find out a players been reading the GM's guide.

I really wouldn't like playing under GM's like this. I don't care what books players look through as long as they put them back in their right places on the shelf.

I had other issues with them over the years like the magical talking fish in my characters backstory that they created and didn't tell me about so they were surprised when my character on returning to the dojo to find their mentor had been killed went to check on the body rather than to the pond to talk to the fish I didn't know about because they mentioned the pond 3 times.

You let GM's create your character's backstory? That seems... backwards. GM's can definitely veto a backstory if it doesn't make sense, but they certainly shouldn't be creating it? (For instance I once had a player whose backstory was being a seasoned member of a Giant-hunting group... Bud, you're level 1, you're a seasoned nothing. Maybe you sat on the bleachers while the rest of the clan killed the Giants, and didn't somehow die to collateral damage).

Ahh, I speed read a little and just saw "because enemy hit bonuses are higher on average" and assumed you were saying enemy to the party. I concur. If *anyone* has a higher to-hit than the party swashbuckler, they're playing swashbuckler very wrong.

You would probably appreciate "general discussion" or "advice." The crowd on this forum is not really that narrow minded, folks just take the premise of this subforum seriously.

Too seriously sometimes. I flagged every post he made that didn't directly relate to the original question. Oops.

Still haven't touched PF2. As a dex swashbuckler player who refuses to power attack (and who looks at the official encounters after they're done), I'll tell you my to-hit was above every single encounter for at least levels 1-15. It was Kingmaker though, so almost all humanoid bosses, not many size differences.

Let's not forget this beautiful addition to the game, which can result in breaking an entire PVP encounter and cause your teammates to dishonor you if they intervene *at all* (including healing you).

Some things are meant purely for flavor and unique encounters, not as normally-used game mechanics. Don't go "Menacing Shot"ing every encounter, your teammates are gonna get severe shell-shock, the same way a swashbuckler shouldn't randomly challenge someone to a duel at every encounter. It's meant for very specific scenarios.

I disagree, but I don't care to argue with you on this topic.

I've already agreed with how the rule should be interpreted and we agree on that.

See my post above, then assume hypothetically.... the enemy/villain is a swashbuckler. Same rule?

Fully agree with the consensus above as far as the rules go. There is no question, as written, the OP&R wins.

As far as intent or how I might houserule that if everyone agrees?? Don't forget the nat 20 rule was written WELL before OP&R ever existed, and they likely forgot to clarify how these coexist. The point of "Nat 20" is regardless of how much "better" the enemy is than you, you have this small chance to hit them, I think allowing an OP&R to counter that makes the overarching rule of "it's still possible" kind've irrelevant.

I'd say you can't OP&R a nat 20, but that's me, not the rules. The rules say you absolutely can.

lol, so hostile. Calm down bro.

You could also read it the other way, your sorcerer level is your character level -2. Then you have a "sorcerer level" that can be treated as 4 levels higher.

You've been going on for days arguing intent over RAW, I'm nowhere near hostile. Just waiting for you to show the same spunk you've been showing. Or is that just admitting defeat? And no, you can't read it that way, because it's not written that way. You do not have a sorcerer level as far as eldritch heritage is considered, literally. Instead, you utilize character level -2. It is *intended* to be weaker than your other sorcerer abilities, you're not supposed to be able to pick up a class feature equivalent with a couple feats.

The same can be said for the Robe of Arcane Heritage, that it's not referencing the Sorcerer Bloodline class feature.

Quote:

When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline.

Either way, if a non sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching does not reweave. So having a bloodline or not doesn't affect the next line that you treat your sorcerer level as 4 higher to determine the effects of bloodline powers.

Well good thing Eldritch heritage doesn't utilize your sorcerer level.

Eldritch heritage specifically and literally says not to use your sorcerer levels in calculating this, you specifically use character levels "even if you have levels in sorcerer." So sure, go ahead calculate your sorcerer level + 4, then go back and do your character level -2 for eldritch heritage.

Not even bloodragers can utilize robes of arcane heritage, and they literally have the bloodline class feature. So a fully unrelated-to-class feat definitely is not intended to work it. Or find me a more recent FAQ overuling this.

So in case you can't use necessary inference to extract the obvious data: Yes, you must be a sorcerer to benefit in any way from Robes of Arcane Heritage. So your "Either way, if a non sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching does not reweave. So having a bloodline or not doesn't affect the next line that you treat your sorcerer level as 4 higher to determine the effects of bloodline powers..." Statement is 100% emphatically incorrect. RAW and further interpreted by FAQ.

PFSRD wrote:

Improved Eldritch Heritage

The power of your discovered bloodline continues to grow.

This phrasing would suggest that you did get a bloodline.

This again? This phrasing would suggest you don't get a bloodline, found in both Eldritch Heritage and Improved... "You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities."

Bloodline is a very specific class feature. You gain a bloodline *power* by burning a feat for it, and yes you can improve this by burning more feats, but you do not gain the Bloodline Class Feature. Unless it literally says you gain a bloodline as the class feature, you do not have a blood line as the class feature. I don't care what your flavor text says.

Short answer: No. Moving into a threatened square does not provoke even if it's difficult terrain. Your movement only provokes *after* entering threatened squares, so continuing to move would provoke. Just remember that generally you cannot 5-foot step in difficult terrain, so any future round movement is likely going to provoke.

Could be specifics that weren't provided unless I'm missing anything in the rules?