Can you Petal on the wind, Parry and Riposte to make yourself unhittable?


Rules Questions


A rules questions about how this combo of abilities plays out:

Wielding a spear, have improved unarmed, have opportune parry and riposte, have Petals on the Wind from warrior poet.

Example: Some enemy is able to rush me, blink up, dodge all my attacks at reach, etc, and get to me within 5ft. They declare an attack. I use opportune parry and riposte with an unarmed strike. Petals on the wind read: "Whenever a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the warrior poet, she can move 5 feet before making the attack of opportunity. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity."

So as part of my parry, I step back 5 ft and I'm now at 10ft. Still have to spend a panache point, AoO, and 5ft from my next turn, but that's ok.

How does the rest of this exchange playout? Do I become a no longer legal target? Does their attack fizzle?

Does the original attack still go off (if it succeeds the parry check) despite the 5ft step happening earlier on the stack?

When I'm now 5ft back, can I make my counter hit with my spear, rather than my unarmed strike? Because the calculating AoO is my unarmed, but the riposte is in response to the parry roll, and is a separate strike. So would their strike fizzle and I'd get to still make an attack? Would both attack and riposte fizzle as neither of the weapons involved in the parry are legal reaches, if they aren't?

Please let me know your thoughts/if there's an answer to this!

BONUS QUESTION: Any combination of feats/class features/etc that would allow me to count an elven branched spear as a legal weapon for panache regenerating features? (crits and kills, etc)


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No, because you are not making an attack of opportunity when you use Opportune Parry and Riposte. You are using one of your allotted uses of however many attacks of opportunity you have in order to fuel the ability, similar to how any other ability with limited function work (like a Bard's number of performances or a Barbarian's rage rounds).

Even if this worked, I can make no clear determination about using your unarmed strike to parry and then responding with a spear attack after you step back, as (oddly enough) Opportune Parry & Riposte does not explicitly call out using a one handed piercing weapon to be used in the attempt. I'd want to say no, because Panache is keyed off using such as weapon, but RAW is RAW.


DeathlessOne wrote:
No, because you are not making an attack of opportunity when you use Opportune Parry and Riposte. You are using one of your allotted uses of however many attacks of opportunity you have in order to fuel the ability, similar to how any other ability with limited function work (like a Bard's number of performances or a Barbarian's rage rounds).

What is the functional different between making an AoO, or making an attack as if it was an AoO?

Would static bonuses still apply? But not class features or trigger effect for AoOs?


Its all in the phrasing of the ability. You determine the Parry attack roll as if you were making an attack of opportunity, but you are NOT making an attack of opportunity because an attack of opportunity normally deals damage on a successful result. Instead, you merely parry an attack that might normally have hit you. Also, the enemy doesn't actually 'provoke' an attack of opportunity from you when using Opportune Parry and Response.

Quote:
The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity; for each size category the attacking creature is larger than the swashbuckler, the swashbuckler takes a –2 penalty on this roll. If her result is greater than the attacking creature’s result, the creature’s attack automatically misses

Would static bonuses apply? You might need to clarify which ones you are referring to, or other class abilities or triggering effects. The game generally functions a certain way and explicit or specific features may change it.

To be clear, I find the idea of a Warrior Poet parrying an attack, stepping back, and riposting to be a very appealing concept. I am biased towards letting you do it as GM, but .. rules section and all.


DeathlessOne wrote:

Its all in the phrasing of the ability. You determine the Parry attack roll as if you were making an attack of opportunity, but you are NOT making an attack of opportunity because an attack of opportunity normally deals damage on a successful result. Instead, you merely parry an attack that might normally have hit you.

Quote:
The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity; for each size category the attacking creature is larger than the swashbuckler, the swashbuckler takes a –2 penalty on this roll. If her result is greater than the attacking creature’s result, the creature’s attack automatically misses

Would static bonuses apply? You might need to clarify which ones you are referring to, or other class abilities or triggering effects. The game generally functions a certain way and explicit or specific features may change it.

To be clear, I find the idea of a Warrior Poet parrying an attack, stepping back, and riposting to be a very appealing concept. I am biased towards letting you do it as GM, but .. rules section and all.

So recognizing it wouldn't deal damage is totally ok. I'm not trying to actually strike the opponent until the riposte section, if qualifies for it.

I have an attack of opportunity based character that has a lot of it's abilities and buffs and equipment based around it.

For example:
Traits that give me bonus AB to AoOs
Weapons that give bonuses to AB on AoOs
Power attack penalties - despite no attack attacks happening yet
Petals on the wind that allows a 5ft step in concert with an AoO
Damage from AoOs burning enemy move speed via Wolf Style.
Etc.

If it doesn't work it doesn't work. And would be limited to once per round, as many times per day as I have non-rechargable panache points (cause two handed weapons don't have a way to refill panache that I've found)

It was a culmination of a lot of class features and feats to have one really good answer to one attack per round.


Pretty simple response.... "...Whenever a foe provokes an attack of opportunity." The foe did not provoke an attack of opportunity. Done.

And while not what you asked in your Bonus Questions, here's a feat for you to look into potentially utilizing that can occasionally negate an enemy's ability to full attack you. Difficult Swings

Dark Archive

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There are several abilities the use up one of your AoO uses for a round without being an AoO. The bodyguard feat is a great example.

The Exchange

Taz'Raul wrote:
BONUS QUESTION: Any combination of feats/class features/etc that would allow me to count an elven branched spear as a legal weapon for panache regenerating features? (crits and kills, etc)

Three levels of Phalanx Soldier fighter. That's the only one I know of that specifically lets you wield it "as a one-handed weapon." (Shield Brace doesn't change the spear from two-handed.)

Or (in the interest of completeness), assuming you are medium you could use a small elven branched spear. Lots of downside to that and pretty sure not what you want.

As for the main question - what everyone else says. The parry part of opportune parry and riposte is NOT an attack of opportunity, it just uses the same mechanics.


"How does the rest of this exchange playout? Do I become a no longer legal target? Does their attack fizzle?"

well it has been tried out before in a more simple way.
you can ready an action along side taking a 5 ft step.

some1 before in the forum asked: "well can't i ready to move back once some1 try to attack me? as the ready happen before the attack he would be out of reach when he try to attack."

the overall agreed answer was that since he didn't attack yet, if he has anymore movement he can take it then (he was moving before attacking and didn't finish) to get close and then attack.

i would say what you are trying to do isn't any different from the "Dodging Panache" deed that let you take 5 ft when attacked but that attack is resolved as if you were still in reach.


I agree with Nameless One on OP&R not being a 'provoked' attack of opportunity, rather than an ability that uses one of your allotted AoOs for the round. I would certainly consider applying any attack roll bonuses that applied to AoOs (since the attack is made as though an AoO), but I don't know if I'd consider it provoked as normal. It would be different if it were worded differently, like 'Spend 1 panache during your turn and the first person making a melee attack against you provokes an AoO and [ability's effect occurs].' or something like that, the current wording doesn't seem to imply they provoked anything.

Taz'Raul wrote:

Wielding a spear, have improved unarmed, have opportune parry and riposte, have Petals on the Wind from warrior poet.

...
So as part of my parry, I step back 5 ft and I'm now at 10ft. Still have to spend a panache point, AoO, and 5ft from my next turn, ...

Assuming you are using a longspear, a two-handed weapon which has reach, then unless you used a free action on your turn to free a hand, then both your hands would be occupied with wielding or holding the longspear. You would not threaten with your unarmed strike*. If you did have a hand free (and the opponent provoked, say with an unarmed attack, trip, disarm, or just moving through your threatened area), then you could use Petals on the Wind to back up, but you still couldn't attack with the spear, since you wouldn't have two hands on it. Despite being a free action to change grip to one- or two-handed, it's not your turn and you can't take such actions unless you have an ability that says you can (kind of like how you can't normally take 5-foot steps during an AoO, you need Petals on the Wind).

*:
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Note that a monk (or a creature with an available natural attack, like a bite) could do this (a warrior poet seems to be a samurai with no monk unarmed training). A monk, specifically, can make their unarmed strikes with feet, knees, fists, and elbows. There are no such provisions for anyone else using unarmed strikes or with Improved Unarmed Strike (barring a hybrid or archetype class that is very obviously based on monk unarmed, like the brawler). In that case, a monk would be able to do it, since the likely have at least an available foot or knee to count as threatening an adjacent foe.
Monk; Unarmed Strikes wrote:
A monk’s attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full.

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Taz'Raul wrote:
I'm now 5ft back, can I make my counter hit with my spear, rather than my unarmed strike?

By the wording, it looks like you could (bearing in mind the above, and you were able to wield your longspear). I might have a different ruling in different instances, such a weapon that itself gave an AoO against an action that normally wouldn't provoke, such as by its very design. In that case I probably wouldn't let it transfer its ability to make one. In the specific case here, with Petals on the Wind, this just seems to be changing your position and still allowing you to make the AoO against the target without indication that any weapon is keyed or deterministic to the ability's trigger or use.

Taz'Raul wrote:
How does the rest of this exchange playout? Do I become a no longer legal target? Does their attack fizzle?

So if you ready an action to step back if a foe attacks you (or in this case, they attack and it provokes and you move back out of their reach), then they can't reach you, no matter how well they roll.

Magic the Gathering reference:
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Since the terms you use sound more like a Magic the Gathering question, I don't want to say you're not a 'legal target' and their attack fizzles, like we're talking about Magic the Gathering and a spell's target becomes invalid and the spell is effectively countered and fizzles. It's more like, the spell has multiple effects or targets and the invalidation of one doesn't stop it from still happening. I would say it was really more akin to you casting a spell that targeted a creature and your opponent playing a spell or having an effect that made it not be able to actually effect the target, like trying to tap a creature and there being an enchantment that says, 'Creatures you control cannot be tapped by spells or abilities an opponent controls'. The creature is still a legal target and can still be targeted, but the attack/spell/effect just can't actually do anything.
------------------------------------

It's more like casting a charm person spell on a dragon that's polymorphed to look like a human. He's not a valid target for the spell, but nothing stops you from targeting him with the spell. You still attempted the spell.

It would be the same if there were an invisible creature around. No matter what your attack roll is (even a critical hit), no matter what your miss chance percentage roll is (or if you have Blind-fight or not), if you aren't attacking into the square or space they're actually in... you aren't going to hit them. Period. The creature isn't an illegal target, it's just one that you can't hit with your attack. There is nothing that stops the attack from being made if that's where it's being made.

Taz'Raul wrote:
Does the original attack still go off (if it succeeds the parry check) despite the 5ft step happening earlier on the stack?

If nothing stops the attack from happening, the attack still happens. It just won't hit anything. If a dragon was polymorphed into a human and readied an action to turn back into a dragon if someone started casting charm person, then the caster can still cast the spell at them when their target obviously stops looking human (maybe it's still a human trying to pretend to be a dragon), but even if they don't, they don't get to keep the attempted spell or slot. They started the action and it's been used. In the case of an attack, they can still swing into the space (maybe there's an invisible creature that was hiding in there or moved in with a readied action when you stepped back, who knows?) If the GM allowed them to pause their attack or not follow through, it would still count as their attack, if they only had one this round they don't get another. If they have multiple attacks, those attacks will count as iterative attacks and have their BAB adjusted accordingly.


Taz'Raul wrote:
Please let me know your thoughts/if there's an answer to this!

The attack would fizzle as you quit being a viable target, but as others have said: OP&R won't work because the target isn't actually provoking.

You'd want something like the Flying Blade's Disrupting Counter (only works with Starknives/Daggers) coupled with a Blue Scarf Swordmaster's Flair for +5 ft reach.

Taz'Raul wrote:
BONUS QUESTION: Any combination of feats/class features/etc that would allow me to count an elven branched spear as a legal weapon for panache regenerating features? (crits and kills, etc)

Kata Master / Master of Many Style Monk. Place the spear in the monk weapon group with a Versatile Design weapon mod (spend a feat on Weapon Adept) which qualifies it for Ascetic Style which you pick up with the MoMS level.

Kata Master gains the Panache ability but can use their unarmed strike in place of a light/one-handed piercing weapon, while Ascetic Style allows you to treat your spear as an unarmed strike.


Wonderstell wrote:


Kata Master gains the Panache ability but can use their unarmed strike in place of a light/one-handed piercing weapon....

"For granted swashbuckler class features and deeds." Don't know officially what this means but is there a possibility it's saying this only works for swashbuckler class features and deeds granted as a kata master?

If so, OP&R is not a class feature/deed granted by Kata Master. I would allow it, just playing devil's advocate to prep my defense case for the future if someone wants to be dogmatic about it.

Without a dip/multiclass into swashbuckler to get OP&R the trade off as a high-level Kata Master does *not* seem worth it.

The Exchange

Wonderstell wrote:
Taz'Raul wrote:
BONUS QUESTION: Any combination of feats/class features/etc that would allow me to count an elven branched spear as a legal weapon for panache regenerating features? (crits and kills, etc)

Kata Master / Master of Many Style Monk. Place the spear in the monk weapon group with a Versatile Design weapon mod (spend a feat on Weapon Adept) which qualifies it for Ascetic Style which you pick up with the MoMS level.

Kata Master gains the Panache ability but can use their unarmed strike in place of a light/one-handed piercing weapon, while Ascetic Style allows you to treat your spear as an unarmed strike.

Trying to work my way through this one.

Kata Master wrote:
A kata master can use an unarmed strike or monk special weapon in place of a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon for granted swashbuckler class features and deeds.

OK. Unarmed Strikes and monk weapons can be used for "granted" swashbuckler class features and deeds. I think legality is going to come down to deciding what "granted" means. Granted by Kata Master, or granted from any class?

Versatile Design wrote:
When versatile design is added to a weapon, choose a fighter weapon group. The modified weapon is considered to be a weapon of that weapon group (such as for the fighter’s weapon training class feature). A melee weapon cannot be considered part of a weapon group for ranged weapons, and vice versa.

We now have the elven branched spear in the monk weapon group but it still doesn't have the monk special quality, so our Kata Master can't use it yet.

Ascetic Style wrote:
Choose one weapon from the monk fighter weapon group. While using this style and wielding the chosen weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike, as if attacks with the weapon were unarmed attacks.

Here's our second roadblock. This one, specific elven branched spear that we used versatile design on is in the monk fighter weapon group. But the whole set of elven branched spears is NOT in that group, so are we allowed to choose it? I'd allow it, but it's not unreasonable for a GM to disallow it. If it is allowed, then we have to agree that the kata master ability to use an unarmed strike for swashbuckler features and deeds is one of the "effects that augment an unarmed strike."

So I would allow this but I can see three points where another GM might decide it doesn't work. The Ascetic Style/weapon group issue in particular.


Negative Party Prognosis wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:


Kata Master gains the Panache ability but can use their unarmed strike in place of a light/one-handed piercing weapon....
"For granted swashbuckler class features and deeds." Don't know officially what this means but is there a possibility it's saying this only works for swashbuckler class features and deeds granted as a kata master?

Yep that's what I assume. But it does let you regain panache with crits/killing blows as you have been given the Swash Panache class feature from the archetype.

And nowhere in the description of OP&R does it say that you need to use a piercing light/one-handed weapon to use it. Any swash could, if they wanted to, use a Sledgehammer to parry. The issue lies in regaining panache which Kata Master solves.


@Belafon

Re: Ascetic Style

That seems counter intuitive to the reason why the weapon mod exists in the first place, but I guess you could settle for 5 levels of Fighter to circumvent that issue.

The Exchange

Wonderstell wrote:

@Belafon

Re: Ascetic Style

That seems counter intuitive to the reason why the weapon mod exists in the first place, but I guess you could settle for 5 levels of Fighter to circumvent that issue.

They are two different things from two different books that weren't written with the other particularly in mind.

The weapon modification exists so that (for example) a fighter built around dual-wielding kukris could decide he wants to carry a reach weapon just in case. He has weapon training: light blades. He buys a longspear with the versatile design modification so that he'll get his Weapon Training bonus on the occasions when he has to use it.

Ascetic style exists mainly so a PC can get benefits with a monk weapon that normally require an unarmed strike. Like choosing "temple sword" and being able to use that weapon with Panther Style. Or Stunning Fist with the sword. If the PC was a 10th-level monk his temple sword would count as magic, cold iron, silver, and lawful.

Levels of fighter wouldn't circumvent the issue. The issue is that while - thanks to versatile design - you have one particular elven branched spear that is considered to be in the fighter monk weapon group, almost none of the total elven branched spears in existence are in the fighter monk weapons group. Ascetic style asks you to choose a weapon from the monk fighter weapons group. Normally you couldn't choose the elven branched spear. Since you personally have an elven branched spear that counts as a monk fighter weapon can you choose it? What if you don't have one (yet) but a party member does? What if you know the BBEG has one? What if there aren't any around but you plan to craft a versatile elven branched spear in the future? Can you choose the spear with Ascetic Style in all those cases?

Like I said: I personally would allow you to have a versatile elven branched spear and then take Ascetic Style - but its effects would only apply to that one spear. However it's perfectly reasonable for a GM to say "That logic creates an infinitely open-ended situation where any melee weapon is fair game for Ascetic Style simply because the Versatile Design modification exists. You have to pick a weapon where all of the weapons of that type are in the monk group. So just ones normally listed there."


I'm dogpiling on the general consensus that OP&R isn't an AoO, it uses one of your round's AoOs to perform the parry. Although these abilities cannot work together, they synergize well if you use both individually.

If you want to capitalize on AoO's, Petal on the Wind, Step Up & Strike, and OP&R with a dex-based char with a Keen Fortuitous Elven Curve Blade (15-20/x2) and Long Arm can really do some work. If you have a melee buddy or two, throw in Seize the Moment and Outflank if you want to turn into a constantly-moving blender of death and sharp things. Throw in Greater Trip to crank this up to 11 and break the knob off.

Maybe even talk one or two of your party members into taking Animal Ally and Boon Companion, and put Outflank and Seize the Moment on the Animal Allies.


Belafon wrote:
Levels of fighter wouldn't circumvent the issue.

I should have clarified. The feat has a special exception that you can use Ascetic Style with any weapon in the monk weapon group if you have the Weapon Training class feature.

"Special: A 5th-level monk or character with the weapon training (monk) class feature can use Ascetic Style with any monk weapon, in addition to the chosen melee weapon."

Which allows you to use the versatile design spear even though you didn't select it for Ascetic Style. That is, you can take Ascetic Style (Cestus) and it will apply to your Versatile Design Elven Branched Spear as it is part of the monk weapon group.

====

Belafon wrote:

Normally you couldn't choose the elven branched spear. Since you personally have an elven branched spear that counts as a monk fighter weapon can you choose it? What if you don't have one (yet) but a party member does? What if you know the BBEG has one? What if there aren't any around but you plan to craft a versatile elven branched spear in the future? Can you choose the spear with Ascetic Style in all those cases?

Like I said: I personally would allow you to have a versatile elven branched spear and then take Ascetic Style - but its effects would only apply to that one spear.

Yes, you can choose the modified versatile design spear with Ascetic Style in all those cases even if the weapon is purely hypothetical.

The feat would only apply to modded versions of the spear, never the base variant.

Edit: But yeah I see your point. If a GM doesn't want to deal with Schrodinger's weapon then that's fair.


Wonderstell wrote:

"Special: A 5th-level monk or character with the weapon training (monk) class feature can use Ascetic Style with any monk weapon, in addition to the chosen melee weapon."

Which allows you to use the versatile design spear even though you didn't select it for Ascetic Style. That is, you can take Ascetic Style (Cestus) and it will apply to your Versatile Design Elven Branched Spear as it is part of the monk weapon group.

A monk weapon is a weapon with the monk special ability, not a weapon in the monk fighter group. So it wouldn't let you use the versatile design spear with it, unless you're able to select spears with ascetic style (because you happen to have one spear with versatile design on it).


I'm aware of the distinction, but in this case I believe that the feat is actually referring to the monk weapon group. Compare the text to Outslug Style from the same book.

Outslug Style:
"Special: In addition to the chosen weapon, a character with the weapon training (close) or the brawler’s close weapon mastery class feature can use Outslug Style with any close weapon."

Ascetic Style:
"Special: A 5th-level monk or character with the weapon training (monk) class feature can use Ascetic Style with any monk weapon, in addition to the chosen melee weapon."

Considering that Ascetic Style is explicitly for the monk weapon group I feel quite confident in that that's how it's meant to be interpreted.

===

But if you end up playing with a GM that disallows Versatile Design weapons as viable choices for Ascetic Style and also chooses to ignore context for the special clause of Ascetic Style, then you can still make it work with Martial Versatility.

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