New spells for casters with prestige classes


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

I was just looking around, and I found this over on the PFd20 site under the Arcane Archer as a sidebar. It's from the FAQ here:

Quote:

Does a wizard (or other character that uses a spellbook), receive bonus spells to add to his spellbook when he gains a level in a prestige class that grants an increase to spellcasting?

No. The increase to his spellcasting level does not grant any other benefits, except for spells per day, spells known (for spontaneous casters), and an increase to his overall caster level. He must spend time and gold to add new spells to his spellbook.

So according to this, when you gain "+1 spellcaster level" from a prestige class...

...all spontaneous casting classes, arcane and divine (Bard, Sorcerer, Inquisitor, Oracle, Summoner), get all their additional spells known and spells per day.
This isn't viewed as unbalancing.

...all divine spellcasters that prepare spells (Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger), can get access to new tiers of spells without problem as well as their spells per day.
This isn't viewed as unbalancing.

...while all arcane casters that have to prepare spells and keep a spellbook (Wizard, Magus, Witch), get additional spells per day casting, but don't get 2 lousy extra spells to add to their spellbook?
This is somehow viewed as unbalancing? Why?

I've already House Ruled this foolishness into oblivion since it was established in 3.5 that if you keep a spellbook, you get to add your 2 spells per level when you gain "+1 spellcaster level" from a prestige class.
If you want more than that, you gotta pay for them as normal.

I just would like to hear the insane reasoning for this particular ruling. Of course, I have seen that rulings from Paizo have a habit of not being consistent.


So have you ever heard anything else about this?

Scarab Sages

Nope. No answer.


I completely agree with you Trellon. I think it is insane and in my games I houserule it aswell.
I seriously doubt that we will ever see any change to this RAW.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Spontaneous casters: Unplayable without a way to gain spells known (and requiring them to take Expanded Arcana to gain one spell each time they gain a spell level is pretty harsh); note that (other than dragon disciple) they do not gain any of the bonus spells known from bloodline or mystery (just as witches don't gain patron spells) from levels in a prestige class.

Prepared divine casters: One of the perks of getting spells from a deity; of course, you have to actually follow the deity's ethos and maintain a compatible alignment/set of behaviors or lose the ability to cast spells at all; also, the spells (other than healing) are generally less powerful/versatile than arcane casters.

Prepared arcane casters: Already have plenty of ways to gain spells for their spellbooks relatively cheaply, as long as the GM is actually following the rules*; Craft Wondrous Item is a great feat for many reasons, but making a blessed book is probably one of the best uses for a prepared arcane caster(IMO); the witch has it hardest, but IMO using the same rate for "copying" from another witch's familiar as wizards charge for copying from their spellbooks (in lieu of "a spell of equal or greater level") is probably a decent compromise.

*- From the Core Rulebook:

Quote:

Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until one week has passed. If the spell was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause the spell to vanish.

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.

Many GMs ignore the last paragraph.


Trellon Falorin wrote:


I just would like to hear the insane reasoning for this particular ruling. Of course, I have seen that rulings from Paizo have a habit of not being consistent.

So you think being rude and condescending to the developers right out of the gate is the best way to get them to answer your question?

"It's a bold strategy Cotton, let's see if it pays off for him."

Sovereign Court

So here's what it costs to buy your new-level spells instead of getting them for free:

Spell Level/cost for learning+scribing such a spell from NPC wizard

1: 15gp (10gp + 50%)
2: 60gp
3: 135gp
4: 240gp
5: 375gp
6: 540gp
7: 735gp
8: 960gp
9: 1215gp

So let's suppose that you're an early-entry mystic theurge, at level 4 you'd spend 120gp to buy your 2 new spells instead of getting them for free. Your expected WBL at level 4 is 6000gp; you can afford this.

Does it make sense? *shrug* Maybe not, but it's not an impossible obstacle to overcome.


Ascalaphus wrote:

So here's what it costs to buy your new-level spells instead of getting them for free:

Spell Level/cost for learning+scribing such a spell from NPC wizard

1: 15gp (10gp + 50%)
2: 60gp
3: 135gp
4: 240gp
5: 375gp
6: 540gp
7: 735gp
8: 960gp
9: 1215gp

So let's suppose that you're an early-entry mystic theurge, at level 4 you'd spend 120gp to buy your 2 new spells instead of getting them for free. Your expected WBL at level 4 is 6000gp; you can afford this.

Does it make sense? *shrug* Maybe not, but it's not an impossible obstacle to overcome.

I agree that it isn't impossible to overcome assuming standard or better WBL and free access to NPC wizard spellbooks at appropriate times, but it is still annoying and the real question is why the prepared casters are getting put through this extra hurdle? I know that most people say that the wizard is more powerful and should stop crying over it, and while I do agree that the wizard is powerful, I simply don't understand the decision.

Sovereign Court

I don't think it's a very good rule either. It's tolerable in a settled setting, where you can easily access nameless NPC wizards with spellbooks; but if accessing those is hard, then this becomes much more punishing.


Arise, thread! Thread, arise!

It's reasonable. Wizards have very little to give up for the privilege of taking a prestige class:

1. The freebie spells.
2. The bonus feats.
3. Advancement of school powers.

Keeping 1 makes prestige classes that much more attractive. Paizo had a stated goal of making single-class builds more attractive when they first developed Pathfinder RPG.

In any case, it's hardly a big deal, and hopefully the original poster has untwisted his knickers in the past three years.

Dark Archive

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blahpers wrote:

Arise, thread! Thread, arise!

This is some unusal Necro'ing too. It took over two years for OP to receive his first comment on this thread and then OP responded to that comment a year and a half later to simply say "Nope". That was the longest 3 conversational exchanges in history. You could have communicated faster by walking to each others houses from halfway around the world...


I will honestly say that I didn't notice the necro, if I had, I would not have responded.
@Blaphers: That is the best reason I have heard for the rule being the way it is. I would never b@$$% to a GM who enforced it, but I would certainly prefer if it wasn't enforced and I would never enforce it myself.

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