summoners are outrageous


Advanced Player's Guide Playtest: Final Playtest

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Telrathel wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:

I think the thread was before the latest playtest changes so the Eidolon is limited to 8 attacks now instead of like 16+ or whatever it had before.
I really don't like the quad form anyway. The crappy will save is a big hole in the Eidolons defense.

nah this was all made after the latest changes, using wielded weapons you can still get more attacks then is limited to the max of natural attacks for the eidolon, and pounce just says you can make a full attack after a charge, so yes its still possible, just harder to do now.

Max 8 attacks is Max 8 attacks no matter how slice it. It says attacks not natural attacks.

This sounds like a rules over sight. Pounce should only work with natural weapons and no matter what the Eidolon can't exceed 8 attacks unless he is hasted...

Scarab Sages

Mahrdol wrote:


Max 8 attacks is Max 8 attacks no matter how slice it. It says attacks not natural attacks.

This sounds like a rules over sight. Pounce should only work with natural weapons and no matter what the Eidolon can't exceed 8 attacks unless he is hasted...

actually under the passage of max attacks on page 34 it says:

Page 34, Final Playtest wrote:


Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks.

from my reading it can still take weapons and gain extra attacks from them, hence gaining more than 8 attacks.

now with pounce, yeah probably an oversite, but RAW says it works for the moment.

Dark Archive

Why are we talking about level 20? How often does the game get to that level? Where is the argument that the summoner is too powerful at 1st level? Or 5th, 7th, etc.? Has anyone crunched these numbers, or, hey, playtested it? I still challenge anyone who says any of the new classes are too powerful (or weak) to take them for a real spin, not a hypothetical one.


EDIT: Forget it, I'm slow

Shadow Lodge

Goblins Eighty-Five wrote:
Why are we talking about level 20? How often does the game get to that level? Where is the argument that the summoner is too powerful at 1st level? Or 5th, 7th, etc.? Has anyone crunched these numbers, or, hey, playtested it? I still challenge anyone who says any of the new classes are too powerful (or weak) to take them for a real spin, not a hypothetical one.

+1 Highly specific, theoretical examples does not an overpowered class make.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Kabump wrote:
Goblins Eighty-Five wrote:
Why are we talking about level 20? How often does the game get to that level? Where is the argument that the summoner is too powerful at 1st level? Or 5th, 7th, etc.? Has anyone crunched these numbers, or, hey, playtested it? I still challenge anyone who says any of the new classes are too powerful (or weak) to take them for a real spin, not a hypothetical one.
+1 Highly specific, theoretical examples does not an overpowered class make.

lol- yeah, that was actually why i started this thread- in mid-levels it seemed like the eidolon got kinda out of control:

@ 7th level it attacks as often as a fighter or barb, can have 32 str and a 3d6 greatsword (+16 from str, +6 power attack) and gets a tentacle (extra d6+7) at the same bonus as the iterative attack; oh, and has reach

@ 11th its strength can be 42 (without any buffs), with a 4d6 greatsword (4d6+33, without a magic sword), it only gets 2 attacks (starting at +30 with power attack and no buffs, enhancement bonus or weapon focus) to a melee class's 3, but it could have upto 3 tentacles which now only take -2 thanks to free multi-attack (3@ +28 for d8+11). granted, it has to stay within 100' of the summoner and, being huge, has problems with some buildings, dungeons, etc. but in playtest straight melee classes got frustrated matching its damage while summoner was free to summon other stuff, cast buffs, knit, etc.

i'd love to hear other real (preferably group) playtest experiences if anyone has em?


nate lange wrote:
Kabump wrote:
Goblins Eighty-Five wrote:
Why are we talking about level 20? How often does the game get to that level? Where is the argument that the summoner is too powerful at 1st level? Or 5th, 7th, etc.? Has anyone crunched these numbers, or, hey, playtested it? I still challenge anyone who says any of the new classes are too powerful (or weak) to take them for a real spin, not a hypothetical one.
+1 Highly specific, theoretical examples does not an overpowered class make.

lol- yeah, that was actually why i started this thread- in mid-levels it seemed like the eidolon got kinda out of control:

@ 7th level it attacks as often as a fighter or barb, can have 32 str and a 3d6 greatsword (+16 from str, +6 power attack) and gets a tentacle (extra d6+7) at the same bonus as the iterative attack; oh, and has reach

@ 11th its strength can be 42 (without any buffs), with a 4d6 greatsword (4d6+33, without a magic sword), it only gets 2 attacks (starting at +30 with power attack and no buffs, enhancement bonus or weapon focus) to a melee class's 3, but it could have upto 3 tentacles which now only take -2 thanks to free multi-attack (3@ +28 for d8+11). granted, it has to stay within 100' of the summoner and, being huge, has problems with some buildings, dungeons, etc. but in playtest straight melee classes got frustrated matching its damage while summoner was free to summon other stuff, cast buffs, knit, etc.

i'd love to hear other real (preferably group) playtest experiences if anyone has em?

I play in pathfinder society and I have a 6th level Summoner. I regularly play with a fighter/cavalier 6 and a Druid 6.

My Eidolon does more damage on with full attack actions then the fighter except when fighting creatures with aligned DR then my damage drops considerable. He does more damage on single attacks. He has one feat that helps him a lot on damage and that is vital strike. My Eiodlon can't qualify for this yet until 9th level. His fighter build is not a optimal damage fighter. He is defensive fighter using long sword and shield with 26(24 with lunge) ac and sometimes he switches to a ransuer/guisarme I think it is to trip/disarm/sunder. My Eidolon has 23 ac without mage armor and that includes a ring of protection +2 that my Eidolon wears. My Eidolon is maximized for pure natural attack damage where his fitghter has lots of utility with all his feats.

Comparing my Eidolon to the Druids animal companion. The Druid player has an ape in full plate. Her companion armor is ac 28. I have 27 ac with mage armor and ring of protection +2. She has +11 to hit and does 1d6+8 a hit with 3 attacks. I am +13 to hit with 4 attacks doing 1d6+8 on 3 and 1 with 1d8+8.

All 3 of us contribute to every combat and I don't see my summoner outshining any other decently built class at the same level with the same type of character. Ya I have played with alchemists, bards and witches and my damage was off the chart compared to these 3 players. Their focus for those characters was not damage. In fact the witch has never done a point of damage in her whole career.

Edit. I just want to add that the fighter has a big tactical advantage because he is medium size. There have been many fights that I was not as effective because I could not get into the fight being large and combine that with the cover rules for reach attacks it can have a big effect. The fighter also has lunge so he has 10' reach and 15' reach with his reach weapons as a medium character if he wants. Fighters are not as handicapped as everyone makes them out.


Zurai wrote:
Alright, here is SummonerGirl and her little friend, MightyEidolon. They're as optimized within the parameters as I can make them at 2:30 AM.

I'm not seeing your limb math. I swore they limited the number of natural attacks per last release (but I have no idea what it is because the d20pfsrd.com isn't updated and I don't have access to the PDF.) I can't quite tell if you are saying it is using natural attacks with weapon attacks, which I am positive is against the rules (which I can't find the details of, blast it)

Also, I don't know what you are saying here:

Quote:
+4 from mage armor becomes a +14 from +5 full plate

Edit: Wrong on natural attacks/weapons. Either that was changed or I remembered it wrong.


Cartigan wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Alright, here is SummonerGirl and her little friend, MightyEidolon. They're as optimized within the parameters as I can make them at 2:30 AM.

I'm not seeing your limb math. I swore they limited the number of natural attacks per last release (but I have no idea what it is because the d20pfsrd.com isn't updated and I don't have access to the PDF.) I can't quite tell if you are saying it is using natural attacks with weapon attacks, which I am positive is against the rules (which I can't find the details of, blast it)

Also, I don't know what you are saying here:

Quote:
+4 from mage armor becomes a +14 from +5 full plate

I thought the same thing but was corrected. All they limited was the natural attacks to 8 at level 20. So I guess you could have arms with weapons and still get 8 natural attacks.


Cartigan wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Alright, here is SummonerGirl and her little friend, MightyEidolon. They're as optimized within the parameters as I can make them at 2:30 AM.

I'm not seeing your limb math. I swore they limited the number of natural attacks per last release (but I have no idea what it is because the d20pfsrd.com isn't updated and I don't have access to the PDF.) I can't quite tell if you are saying it is using natural attacks with weapon attacks, which I am positive is against the rules (which I can't find the details of, blast it)

Also, I don't know what you are saying here:

Quote:
+4 from mage armor becomes a +14 from +5 full plate

There a reason you posted a response to my post in that thread in this thread instead?

Anyway, the restriction is on natural attacks, not total attacks. ME has 8 natural attacks: the 2 automatic claws and 6 tentacles. Its extra arms have no natural attack associated with them.

As for the armor thing, maybe if you read the entire sentence, it'd become clear.


Zurai wrote:


There a reason you posted a response to my post in that thread in this thread instead?

You linked it in this thread? Hence the quote of said link.

Quote:
As for the armor thing, maybe if you read the entire sentence, it'd become clear.

Perhaps, instead of being an ass, you could make at least a paltry attempt at clearing up my confusion? Which I did myself, and I think your math is wrong now.


Goblins Eighty-Five wrote:
Why are we talking about level 20? How often does the game get to that level? Where is the argument that the summoner is too powerful at 1st level? Or 5th, 7th, etc.? Has anyone crunched these numbers, or, hey, playtested it? I still challenge anyone who says any of the new classes are too powerful (or weak) to take them for a real spin, not a hypothetical one.

What? That's silly. Who wants to make a character at the average level for hypothetical power comparisons.


Cartigan wrote:
You linked it in this thread? Hence the quote of said link.

It just seems stupid to me to talk about one thread in another thread. I linked that thread here so all the discussion of it would be in that thread, not this one. It's only common sense to discuss the contents of a thread in that thread, not a different thread.

Quote:
Perhaps, instead of being an ass, you could make at least a paltry attempt at clearing up my confusion? Which I did myself, and I think your math is wrong now.

The sentence wasn't particularly confusing. "Now imagine an Eidolon that's allowed to wear actual armor. The +4 [bonus, obviously] from mage armor becomes a +14 [bonus, again, obviously] from +5 full plate [9 base +5 enchantment = 14]."

Where is my math wrong?

Shadow Lodge

Zurai wrote:
The sentence wasn't particularly confusing. "Now imagine an Eidolon that's allowed to wear actual armor. The +4 [bonus, obviously] from mage armor becomes a +14 [bonus, again, obviously] from +5 full plate [9 base +5 enchantment = 14]."

In other words, if an Eidolon could wear armor, he would be using +5 Fullplate instead of the mage armor spell.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
Zurai wrote:
The sentence wasn't particularly confusing. "Now imagine an Eidolon that's allowed to wear actual armor. The +4 [bonus, obviously] from mage armor becomes a +14 [bonus, again, obviously] from +5 full plate [9 base +5 enchantment = 14]."
In other words, if an Eidolon could wear armor, he would be using +5 Fullplate instead of the mage armor spell.

I didn't realize Full Plate got buffed. (or everything above light armor for that matter)

How did you get 45AC total in your base?


Cartigan wrote:
How did you get 45AC total in your base?

If you want questions answered, ask them in the appropriate thread. I'm done answering questions about SG and ME in this thread. I made it a new thread for a reason.


nate lange wrote:
Kabump wrote:
Goblins Eighty-Five wrote:
Why are we talking about level 20? How often does the game get to that level? Where is the argument that the summoner is too powerful at 1st level? Or 5th, 7th, etc.? Has anyone crunched these numbers, or, hey, playtested it? I still challenge anyone who says any of the new classes are too powerful (or weak) to take them for a real spin, not a hypothetical one.
+1 Highly specific, theoretical examples does not an overpowered class make.

lol- yeah, that was actually why i started this thread- in mid-levels it seemed like the eidolon got kinda out of control:

@ 7th level it attacks as often as a fighter or barb, can have 32 str and a 3d6 greatsword (+16 from str, +6 power attack) and gets a tentacle (extra d6+7) at the same bonus as the iterative attack; oh, and has reach

@ 11th its strength can be 42 (without any buffs), with a 4d6 greatsword (4d6+33, without a magic sword), it only gets 2 attacks (starting at +30 with power attack and no buffs, enhancement bonus or weapon focus) to a melee class's 3, but it could have upto 3 tentacles which now only take -2 thanks to free multi-attack (3@ +28 for d8+11). granted, it has to stay within 100' of the summoner and, being huge, has problems with some buildings, dungeons, etc. but in playtest straight melee classes got frustrated matching its damage while summoner was free to summon other stuff, cast buffs, knit, etc.

i'd love to hear other real (preferably group) playtest experiences if anyone has em?

I've got one. A Summoner and his Eidolon versus a group of five 5th level PCs, three levels lower than him. According to the CR chart, it's supposed to be a challenging encounter.

To wrap this up this was the old school eidolon. He has four claws with a +17 bonus to hit on each. Each of the claws deals 2d6 damage. He rends if he hits with two on the same target. Finally, he has an electric charge ability that makes all his natural attacks deal an extra 1d6 damage. His strength makes him deal an extra 9 damage. Yes, he is large size. If he was one of the newer eidolons, his damage would drop slightly due to 2 lost HD, but four 15's to hit is still pants on head crazy to put the PCs up against at level 5.

The main problems: The summoner? I had him do diddly in the first encounter. He cast greater invisibility on himself round one and I think cast barkskin on the eidolon, whose 21 AC already put him in the hard to hit range. Thanks to the spell Alter Self, he was in a human shape for a minute or so before the fight, when I had him shed his disguise. That's about as tricky as the summoner got.

First round, the fighter charges him (Because why shouldn't he? He's a scythe fighter after all, and dealing some damage is what fighters do). Color the fighter surprised when his attack deals an OK amount of damage, and then his 22 AC gets ripped to shreds thanks to the charge, meaning the big lummox hits on a 3 or better.

The rest of the PCs squeal in terror. They nearly take it down but end up fleeing. And by nearly take it down I do not mean the summoner had to sacrifice some hit points, I mean get it down to 0 or lower. Their party setup is, admittedly, bad (Two rouges, a fighter, a bard, a sorceror and a paaldin, who was not there). But had they gone up against the druid my other group had fought, they would have had no trouble.

The second match of this combination I actually made harder (Due to the preparations that will be explained in a moment). I also included a half-demon minotaur with a spiked chain in the monster's roster. The room that they fought the Eidolon and his summoner in was shaped like a donut with jelly filled firey death in the middle (devil binding spell left unfinished).

I let the party in on a little trick. Using the effects of the Protection from evil spell, even our large sized eidolon could touch, yes, and attack them, but can't move into the circle of effect, since the class says nothing about moving past such effects. That little third level spell gave the party plenty of time to mop up the minotaur before Eidolon zilla became a major issue.

Most of the battle was fairly straightforward till the summoner failed the save against glitterdust. Blinded, he switched places with his eidolon, who proceeded to send two attacks against the paladin and two against the fighter who had wisely closed the gap to the squishy. All four hit, both of them drop.

"But wait!" Says the Bard's player. "He teleported into the effects of my glitterdust." One failed save later and the fighter's the only one with a big slash on his arm, and not one of two party members with a nasty case of the dead.

They loop around after some hilarity (Including the rouge grappling the summoner so he couldn't cast) corner the nasty pair and finish them off.

In short: The Eidolon can dish out a ton of damage without even fighting with two-handers or what have you. Being able to dish out around 100 damage a turn with rend and a few evolutions is way too crazy. For a damage comparison, that part of a CR 7 eidolon did the damage of a CR 9. Average damage if all four attacks hit (They will!) is 99. The re-balanced Eidolon does little to address this (level 8 Eidolon if you want to check my math, understandably, Bipedal).

Also my players kept calling the summoner's teleporting around cheesy, as well as his ability to transfer his health to the eidolon. These are mostly uninitiated players save one. How is the actual audience for this game going to react to this class?


So a level 8 Eidolon and Summoner vs 5 5th lvl PCs? How does CR in Pathfinder work again?

Dark Archive

Madcap Storm King wrote:
nate lange wrote:
Kabump wrote:
Goblins Eighty-Five wrote:
Why are we talking about level 20? How often does the game get to that level? Where is the argument that the summoner is too powerful at 1st level? Or 5th, 7th, etc.? Has anyone crunched these numbers, or, hey, playtested it? I still challenge anyone who says any of the new classes are too powerful (or weak) to take them for a real spin, not a hypothetical one.
+1 Highly specific, theoretical examples does not an overpowered class make.

lol- yeah, that was actually why i started this thread- in mid-levels it seemed like the eidolon got kinda out of control:

@ 7th level it attacks as often as a fighter or barb, can have 32 str and a 3d6 greatsword (+16 from str, +6 power attack) and gets a tentacle (extra d6+7) at the same bonus as the iterative attack; oh, and has reach

@ 11th its strength can be 42 (without any buffs), with a 4d6 greatsword (4d6+33, without a magic sword), it only gets 2 attacks (starting at +30 with power attack and no buffs, enhancement bonus or weapon focus) to a melee class's 3, but it could have upto 3 tentacles which now only take -2 thanks to free multi-attack (3@ +28 for d8+11). granted, it has to stay within 100' of the summoner and, being huge, has problems with some buildings, dungeons, etc. but in playtest straight melee classes got frustrated matching its damage while summoner was free to summon other stuff, cast buffs, knit, etc.

i'd love to hear other real (preferably group) playtest experiences if anyone has em?

I've got one. A Summoner and his Eidolon versus a group of five 5th level PCs, three levels lower than him. According to the CR chart, it's supposed to be a challenging encounter.

To wrap this up this was the old school eidolon. He has four claws with a +17 bonus to hit on each. Each of the claws deals 2d6 damage. He rends if he hits with two on the same target. Finally, he has an electric charge ability that makes all his natural attacks deal an extra 1d6...

I currently play in a group that has a Summoner with a Biped Eidolon. Needless to say I am very thankful he is on our side. We have had a few encounters where the Summoner/Eidolon made the difference between a wipe and staying alive. We are 2-3 level, and the Eidolon is with no question the melee tank and damage dealer. I have not had much time to check the changes to the Summoner; from what I have read they are still very potent.


Cartigan wrote:
So a level 8 Eidolon and Summoner vs 5 5th lvl PCs? How does CR in Pathfinder work again?

Class levels -1 to get the CR.

Back in 3.5 I put a group up against an optimized wizard of four levels higher from 200 feet away. The poor sap never even knew what hit him, thanks to the charging barbarian and a cleric with Sound Burst.

Doesn't work so well on the summoner.


Madcap Storm King wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
So a level 8 Eidolon and Summoner vs 5 5th lvl PCs? How does CR in Pathfinder work again?

Class levels -1 to get the CR.

Back in 3.5 I put a group up against an optimized wizard of four levels higher from 200 feet away. The poor sap never even knew what hit him, thanks to the charging barbarian and a cleric with Sound Burst.

Doesn't work so well on the summoner.

Calling b***%@$@. It works less well at lower levels on the whole.


Peter Stewart wrote:
Madcap Storm King wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
So a level 8 Eidolon and Summoner vs 5 5th lvl PCs? How does CR in Pathfinder work again?

Class levels -1 to get the CR.

Back in 3.5 I put a group up against an optimized wizard of four levels higher from 200 feet away. The poor sap never even knew what hit him, thanks to the charging barbarian and a cleric with Sound Burst.

Doesn't work so well on the summoner.

Calling b~@#*!!#. It works less well at lower levels on the whole.

Yeah, you're right. Being up against five people by yourself and losing a turn doesn't lose you the encounter. Oh, wait. It totally does when you have no way to not get stunned.

Wizards are not that hard to take down provided you hit them with a nice save or suck, then lay into them with a grapple or make them blow a turn with see invisibility. The wizard had around 30 ish hp, so to the barbarian who was standing next to him, he was nothing but delicious wizard flavored xp in a paper thin wrapper.

Shouldn't it (I assume you mean the CR system) work at every level? Isn't that the point of having a level based game?


Madcap Storm King wrote:

Yeah, you're right. Being up against five people by yourself and losing a turn doesn't lose you the encounter. Oh, wait. It totally does when you have no way to not get stunned.

You misunderstood. I wasn't calling out your comments about the wizard your party jumped. I was calling out your claims that they can't do the same thing to the summoner. They aren't just as effective at doing so, because the summoner gets better EOA (just like a druid), but the fact of the matter is a full party should (and would) dominate one.

Shadow Lodge

Madcap Storm King wrote:

Yeah, you're right. Being up against five people by yourself and losing a turn doesn't lose you the encounter. Oh, wait. It totally does when you have no way to not get stunned.

Wizards are not that hard to take down provided you hit them with a nice save or suck, then lay into them with a grapple or make them blow a turn with see invisibility. The wizard had around 30 ish hp, so to the barbarian who was standing next to him, he was nothing but delicious wizard flavored xp in a paper thin wrapper.

Shouldn't it (I assume you mean the CR system) work at every level? Isn't that the point of having a level based game?

You wizard may have been optimized but what on earth was he doing standing in an open field waiting for the party? Where are his minions? What was he doing with a 200' gap of open terrain in between him and the party? That's not an encounter so much as just tossing minis on a battlemat and saying "have at it".

Regardless, a single encounter does not prove anything about how the CR system does or doesn't work. How tough would that encounter have been if the wizard had gotten the jump on the party instead of the other way around? Or if the wizard had either terrain or allies preventing them from reaching him immediately? (which is how 90% of encounters with wizards are set up)

There are always going to be situations where one monster or class is weaker or stronger and you can't write off the whole system because your one example puts a class in the worst possible light.

Don't get me wrong, the CR system is far from perfect, it's just not broken in the ways you state, and in particular your example is a terrible illustration.


0gre wrote:
Madcap Storm King wrote:

Yeah, you're right. Being up against five people by yourself and losing a turn doesn't lose you the encounter. Oh, wait. It totally does when you have no way to not get stunned.

Wizards are not that hard to take down provided you hit them with a nice save or suck, then lay into them with a grapple or make them blow a turn with see invisibility. The wizard had around 30 ish hp, so to the barbarian who was standing next to him, he was nothing but delicious wizard flavored xp in a paper thin wrapper.

Shouldn't it (I assume you mean the CR system) work at every level? Isn't that the point of having a level based game?

You wizard may have been optimized but what on earth was he doing standing in an open field waiting for the party? Where are his minions? What was he doing with a 200' gap of open terrain in between him and the party? That's not an encounter so much as just tossing minis on a battlemat and saying "have at it".

Regardless, a single encounter does not prove anything about how the CR system does or doesn't work. How tough would that encounter have been if the wizard had gotten the jump on the party instead of the other way around? Or if the wizard had either terrain or allies preventing them from reaching him immediately? (which is how 90% of encounters with wizards are set up)

There are always going to be situations where one monster or class is weaker or stronger and you can't write off the whole system because your one example puts a class in the worst possible light.

Don't get me wrong, the CR system is far from perfect, it's just not broken in the ways you state, and in particular your example is a terrible illustration.

The wizard HAD wall of iron in a scroll, I believe, and the room they were in was made of iron. I don't give my NPCs batman powers, so unless he's a 13th or higher wizard it's doubtful he'd make his spells last long enough for a setup.

Plus I forgot to give him alarm. :P So there's that.

Peter Stewart wrote:


You misunderstood. I wasn't calling out your comments about the wizard your party jumped. I was calling out your claims that they can't do the same thing to the summoner. They aren't just as effective at doing so, because the summoner gets better EOA (just like a druid), but the fact of the matter is a full party should (and would) dominate one.

The thing is, a full party DIDN'T dominate the summoner and his eidolon. TWICE. It dominated them. Had the summoner had one single minion with healing, the battle very well may have ended in a TPK. Had they not used the current rules "glitch" from protection from Evil (Which, oddly enough, would almost be balanced should they keep it until final printing), it would have been a TPK. Had the Eidolon not been blinded by glitterdust it would have been, etc.

They had to do WAY too many things to win the fight. They grappled the summoner while he was blind. Ooop! Eidolon's next to him. Take the rogue out. What would a wizard have done? DD, then run away. Still got beat. Nope, not the summoner. He cannot be reasoned with. He cannot be stopped. Most of the problem being: The Eidolon does too much damage. It's a CR 9-10 damage with CR 8 hp unless you deal enough damage to kill it. Then it starts getting nastier.

Did I forget to mention the only thing the summoner could do in the second combat was move his eidolon around and cast Haste?

I forgot about haste. That had no bearing on the combat. Rather, this unmodified eidolon would have ripped the entire party to shreds single handedly. It had four arms, but that was enough for one each for the rest of the party after killing the TWO tanks.

The current fix lowers the Eidolon's HP by average of 11- x2 CON for that level, but really? Large size is THE problem. If it was a +4 bonus his to-hit and damage would both be lowered by 2. This actually makes the same exact eidolon have 20% less chance to hit, and with the new price on large no more claw enhancement (lowered to hit 13, damage 2d6+1d6 electricity +7) It still does a lot, but it's not nearly as bad. Testing from this angle doesn't affect people who aren't build combat eidolons in any meaningful way, and it fixes what I think is a massive hole in damage calculations for this creature. If I want a summoner as an enemy, I don't want a gimped caster accompanied by a monster of two CRs higher than him.

Dark Archive

How many hp did the eidolon have, what feats/skills? As far as I can tell an 8th lvl bipedal eidolon can get pretty screwed up from the 1st lvl Grease spell cast by someone with an 18 casting stat. They would need to roll an 11 or higher not to fall down. And then acrobatics checks to get through the area at 1/2 move without falling( granted that is only a dc 10 check so they would have to roll an 8 ).

Fly is a 3rd lvl spell which would take the caster completely out of melee range.

Without specifics on what is going on there is no way we can evaluate your tactics vs the groups tactics. So we can't really argue for or against your point of view. Do I believe you ran a scenario that turned out like you reported? Yes. Does that help me decide whether or not the Summoner is over-powered? No.

EDIT: And look at the druid animal companion list. There are quite a few who gain large size with the same bonuses. I ran a game last week where a druid had a snake animal companion at 6th level who was doing 1d4 + 16 damage( 2x per round if the creature was grappled - bite + constrict ). Add the grapple part and enemies pretty much died.


Draeke Raefel wrote:

How many hp did the eidolon have, what feats/skills? As far as I can tell an 8th lvl bipedal eidolon can get pretty screwed up from the 1st lvl Grease spell cast by someone with an 18 casting stat. They would need to roll an 11 or higher not to fall down. And then acrobatics checks to get through the area at 1/2 move without falling( granted that is only a dc 10 check so they would have to roll an 8 ).

Fly is a 3rd lvl spell which would take the caster completely out of melee range.

Without specifics on what is going on there is no way we can evaluate your tactics vs the groups tactics. So we can't really argue for or against your point of view. Do I believe you ran a scenario that turned out like you reported? Yes. Does that help me decide whether or not the Summoner is over-powered? No.

I would have posted the stats with my comment provided I still had 'em. They have disappeared into the ether.

Making the eidolon fall down does not save the party, a turn later the summoner has got him teleported over to him, and then has moved away so as not to get caught in the next trap.

Here's the party:

2 rouges, one with a firearm, the other more focused on wading into melee.
A bard with a focus on support with a few "kill spells".
A paladin with a +1 holy longsword and general combat focus.
A fighter with a +1 scythe with a few feats into tripping.
A Sorceror with a longbow, shooting for (Sorry!) Arcane archer.

Party's high AC was 22. They were level 5.

The summoner had a +1 weapon, decent strength and charisma, and exactly 60 hp. His favorite tactic was using Greater Invisibility before going on the offensive. Ironically if he had done this to the eidolon there would have been quite a few more problems for the party.

The eidolon was bipedal, Large size, had 82 hp, 21 AC, a +17 to hit and dealt 3d6+9 damage per hit. On two claws hitting the same target it rends automatically for 2d6+13 damage. Very combat focused, crappy saves except for fort, and kept away by Protection from evil. Keep in mind he had like three rounds of interaction with the party.

The third monster was the verbatim half-fiend minotaur from the bestiary, except for it having a spiked chain instead of a greataxe.

Before the fight, the bard and the sorcerer drank potions of protection from evil, giving them immunity to eidolon for the fight.

To be continued.

Dark Archive

Madcap Storm King wrote:
....

Haven't done an in-depth analysis yet, but both versions of the eidolon were immune to that part of the protection from evil spell.

Advanced Player's Guide wrote:


Eidolon: A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature. An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it. Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.

Both the Original and the Updated version have the same wording.


Draeke Raefel wrote:
Madcap Storm King wrote:
....

Haven't done an in-depth analysis yet, but both versions of the eidolon were immune to that part of the protection from evil spell.

Advanced Player's Guide wrote:


Eidolon: A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature. An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it. Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.
Both the Original and the Updated version have the same wording.

That mentions contact. Entering the area warded is never mentioned. If I HADN'T used that interpretation, the party would be dead.


Madcap Storm King wrote:
That mentions contact. Entering the area warded is never mentioned. If I HADN'T used that interpretation, the party would be dead.

Protection from evil doesn't affect an area, it affects a creature. There is no warded area.

Dark Archive

(Edit- previous format was bad)

Food for thought on a naughty Eidolon using updated rules(I am with Madcap here):

8th Level Biped

Str: 27
Dex: 13
Con: 17
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 11

HD(Hp): 6d10+35 (71 hp.)
AC: 21 (touch- 10; ff- 20)
BAB: +6
Fort: +8
Ref: +3
Will: +5
Initiative: +5

4 Claws - Attack/Damage: +15, 1d6+8/magic
Rend (chance of 2!) - 1d6+12/magic

Feats: 3 (Improved Init.; Weapon Focus- Nat. Weap - claw; Toughness)
Skills: 24 (max. 6 ranks; perception +9, stealth +6, climb +13, swim +13, acrobatics +6, bluff +6, and sense motive +6)
Evolutions: 11 pts. (1pt. Imp. Nat. Armor- +2, 1pt. Magic Attacks, 2pts. Extra Limbs (arms), 1pt. Claws on Extra Limbs, 4pts. Large, 2pts. Rend)

Test this on a party of 5th level characters and let me know how it goes. Now don't forget to add the invisible buff buddy that comes with him.


Zurai wrote:
Protection from evil doesn't affect an area, it affects a creature. There is no warded area.

He mentioned 3rd level at one point, so may have been referencing Magic Circle. Not sure that works against an eidolon either, though.


Robert Young wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Protection from evil doesn't affect an area, it affects a creature. There is no warded area.
He mentioned 3rd level at one point, so may have been referencing Magic Circle. Not sure that works against an eidolon either, though.

It doesn't after all you can't attack someone in a magic circle if you can't reach through a magic circle.

Dark Archive

Mul wrote:

(Edit- previous format was bad)

Food for thought on a naughty Eidolon using updated rules(I am with Madcap here):

8th Level Biped

Str: 27
Dex: 13
Con: 17
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 11

HD(Hp): 6d10+35 (71 hp.)
AC: 21 (touch- 10; ff- 20)
BAB: +6
Fort: +8
Ref: +3
Will: +5
Initiative: +5

4 Claws - Attack/Damage: +15, 1d6+8/magic
Rend (chance of 2!) - 1d6+12/magic

Feats: 3 (Improved Init.; Weapon Focus- Nat. Weap - claw; Toughness)
Skills: 24 (max. 6 ranks; perception +9, stealth +6, climb +13, swim +13, acrobatics +6, bluff +6, and sense motive +6)
Evolutions: 11 pts. (1pt. Imp. Nat. Armor- +2, 1pt. Magic Attacks, 2pts. Extra Limbs (arms), 1pt. Claws on Extra Limbs, 4pts. Large, 2pts. Rend)

Test this on a party of 5th level characters and let me know how it goes. Now don't forget to add the invisible buff buddy that comes with him.

Lets also pretend that the Summoner starts off typically with some long duration buffs:

-Mage Armor on he and Eidolon (+4 AC Force/Deflection)
-Protection from Arrows (80/DR*)
These cast still leaves a Summoner with a Cha. of 10, 2 1st level spells, 2 2nd level spells (Bulls Str. anyone?) and 2 3rd level spells.

Dark Archive

Abraham spalding wrote:
Robert Young wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Protection from evil doesn't affect an area, it affects a creature. There is no warded area.
He mentioned 3rd level at one point, so may have been referencing Magic Circle. Not sure that works against an eidolon either, though.
It doesn't after all you can't attack someone in a magic circle if you can't reach through a magic circle.

10'radius meet 10' reach; not good against large/reach. Also Magic circle is a will save. 3rd Level spell from 5th level caster; DC 15-17. Also stay in the circle a Wall of Fire from the summoner will fix that up real quick.


Mul wrote:
10'radius meet 10' reach; not good against large/reach. Also Magic circle is a will save. 3rd Level spell from 5th level caster; DC 15-17. Also stay in the circle a Wall of Fire from the summoner will fix that up real quick.

Nope. It denies physical contact by evil summoned creatures regardless of reach (and they cannot physically enter the radius either). That Will save is for the target (creature touched that receives the protection, i.e. your ally) not the hedged critters.


Robert Young wrote:
Mul wrote:
10'radius meet 10' reach; not good against large/reach. Also Magic circle is a will save. 3rd Level spell from 5th level caster; DC 15-17. Also stay in the circle a Wall of Fire from the summoner will fix that up real quick.
Nope. It denies physical contact by evil summoned creatures regardless of reach (and they cannot physically enter the radius either). That Will save is for the target (creature touched that receives the protection, i.e. your ally) not the hedged critters.

Doesn't matter anyways:

"...an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures."

similar effects include magic circle of protection against evil. It's the exact same effect actually (even references it in the magic circle's spell description). The eidolon can touch and attack the creatures warded.

Can't really get much more explicit than that.


Mul wrote:

(Edit- previous format was bad)

Food for thought on a naughty Eidolon using updated rules(I am with Madcap here):

8th Level Biped

Str: 27
Dex: 13
Con: 17
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 11

HD(Hp): 6d10+35 (71 hp.)
AC: 21 (touch- 10; ff- 20)
BAB: +6
Fort: +8
Ref: +3
Will: +5
Initiative: +5

4 Claws - Attack/Damage: +15, 1d6+8/magic
Rend (chance of 2!) - 1d6+12/magic

Feats: 3 (Improved Init.; Weapon Focus- Nat. Weap - claw; Toughness)
Skills: 24 (max. 6 ranks; perception +9, stealth +6, climb +13, swim +13, acrobatics +6, bluff +6, and sense motive +6)
Evolutions: 11 pts. (1pt. Imp. Nat. Armor- +2, 1pt. Magic Attacks, 2pts. Extra Limbs (arms), 1pt. Claws on Extra Limbs, 4pts. Large, 2pts. Rend)

Test this on a party of 5th level characters and let me know how it goes. Now don't forget to add the invisible buff buddy that comes with him.

Looks like a mediocre monster to me. Probably be dead in 2 rounds against my typical lvl5 group, if it manages to pass its will saves. Not sure it can take my level 3 party.

Dark Archive

Abraham spalding wrote:
Robert Young wrote:
Mul wrote:
10'radius meet 10' reach; not good against large/reach. Also Magic circle is a will save. 3rd Level spell from 5th level caster; DC 15-17. Also stay in the circle a Wall of Fire from the summoner will fix that up real quick.
Nope. It denies physical contact by evil summoned creatures regardless of reach (and they cannot physically enter the radius either). That Will save is for the target (creature touched that receives the protection, i.e. your ally) not the hedged critters.

Doesn't matter anyways:

"...an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures."

similar effects include magic circle of protection against evil. It's the exact same effect actually (even references it in the magic circle's spell description). The eidolon can touch and attack the creatures warded.

Can't really get much more explicit than that.

Again, stay inside the circle with the nice warm firewall.


Except that you have no firewall at all. The protection spells do not keep out an eidolon. It offers no protection at all.


Mul wrote:
Again, stay inside the circle with the nice warm firewall.

Pshaw, one resist energy and that 2d6+caster level is pennies on the dollar. Hell, even without the resist energy....

Dark Archive

Caineach wrote:
Mul wrote:

(Edit- previous format was bad)

Food for thought on a naughty Eidolon using updated rules(I am with Madcap here):

8th Level Biped

Str: 27
Dex: 13
Con: 17
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 11

HD(Hp): 6d10+35 (71 hp.)
AC: 21 (touch- 10; ff- 20)
BAB: +6
Fort: +8
Ref: +3
Will: +5
Initiative: +5

4 Claws - Attack/Damage: +15, 1d6+8/magic
Rend (chance of 2!) - 1d6+12/magic

Feats: 3 (Improved Init.; Weapon Focus- Nat. Weap - claw; Toughness)
Skills: 24 (max. 6 ranks; perception +9, stealth +6, climb +13, swim +13, acrobatics +6, bluff +6, and sense motive +6)
Evolutions: 11 pts. (1pt. Imp. Nat. Armor- +2, 1pt. Magic Attacks, 2pts. Extra Limbs (arms), 1pt. Claws on Extra Limbs, 4pts. Large, 2pts. Rend)

Test this on a party of 5th level characters and let me know how it goes. Now don't forget to add the invisible buff buddy that comes with him.

Looks like a mediocre monster to me. Probably be dead in 2 rounds against my typical lvl5 group, if it manages to pass its will saves. Not sure it can take my level 3 party.

LOL, a 3rd level group; not a chance. A well built 5th level group would have issues with that with no question.

Unless your 3rd level group is running around with Magic Items out the ass there is no way.

1. 3rd level fighter (3d10 = about 22 hp + 6 from con, dead 2 hits which would hit; rend would seal the deal if damage was rolled poorly)
2. 3rd level rogue (good luck sneaking, and dead in 1 maybe 2 hits)
3. 3rd level caster (wizard, cleric, druid; nothing special at all and the spells that require will saves are nothing at that level)
4. 5th level there are more hp and more spell options which is what gives the 5th level party a chance and fleeing without a entire party kill.

3rd level! LOL. I like you Caineach, you're funny.

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Robert Young wrote:
Mul wrote:
Again, stay inside the circle with the nice warm firewall.
Pshaw, one resist energy and that 2d6+caster level is pennies on the dollar. Hell, even without the resist energy....

OK, so party hides in a magic circle from Eidolon and no reist energy as we will again go with party of 5 which would require 5 resist energies and use all 2nd level spells for Cleric 5th if used.

Questions though.
1. How many hitpoints do these 5th level characters have? (2d6+9 * 9 = 108)
2. How are you going to defeat or flee from the Eidolon & Summoner standing in the Magic Circle?
3. Is this a rounded party (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue and x)?

Dark Archive

Abraham spalding wrote:
Except that you have no firewall at all. The protection spells do not keep out an eidolon. It offers no protection at all.

And yes.... "due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures."

3rd - Level Summoner Spells : Wall of Fire


I thought the Magic Circle and Wall of Fire were attempts (failing) to protect the party from the eidolon. But you're saying the Wall of Fire is now protecting the Summoner from the party, right? I'm confused.


Mul wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Except that you have no firewall at all. The protection spells do not keep out an eidolon. It offers no protection at all.

And yes.... "due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures."

3rd - Level Summoner Spells : Wall of Fire

Ok we are on the same page now... I missed the wall of fire initially as well.

However said spell isn't all that useful in this case... as a ring it prevents you from aiming through it with arrows... burns them up as they travel through it, and the spell gives cover to both sides at minimum. Basically the party outside can walk away or prep at their leisure.


I got it now, Wall of Fire used offensively with heat focused inside the ring shape. Good use against lower level opponents!

Dark Archive

Robert Young wrote:
I got it now, Wall of Fire used offensively with heat focused inside the ring shape. Good use against lower level opponents!

Correct. Don't past through it, stay inside and take 2d4 damage for being within 10' of it and the 2d6+9 is the damage to come out and play or just take a peek ;-)

Dark Archive

Abraham spalding wrote:
Mul wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Except that you have no firewall at all. The protection spells do not keep out an eidolon. It offers no protection at all.

And yes.... "due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures."

3rd - Level Summoner Spells : Wall of Fire

Ok we are on the same page now... I missed the wall of fire initially as well.

However said spell isn't all that useful in this case... as a ring it prevents you from aiming through it with arrows... burns them up as they travel through it, and the spell gives cover to both sides at minimum. Basically the party outside can walk away or prep at their leisure.

We got twisted here. Intially I forgot about the circle protection not impacting the Eidolon and my use of the fire wall was for anyone trying to use the circle to stay safe from the Eidolon. Little misunderstanding ;-) Yes, Eidolon nasty and Summoner buffs more nasty.

People that don't think so, either - a. have a lack of understanding combat, please read the class and get familiar with the game; b. have a lack of understanding spells and saves, please read the class and get familiar with the game; or c. need to play pathfinder more please do so it is time well spent ;-)

Dark Archive

Mul wrote:
Mul wrote:

(Edit- previous format was bad)

8th Level Biped

Str: 27
Dex: 13
Con: 17
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 11

HD(Hp): 6d10+35 (71 hp.)
AC: 21 (touch- 10; ff- 20)
Fort: +8
Ref: +3
Will: +5
Initiative: +5

4 Claws - Attack/Damage: +15, 1d6+8/magic
Rend (chance of 2!) - 1d6+12/magic

Lets also pretend that the Summoner starts off typically with some long duration buffs:

-Mage Armor on he and Eidolon (+4 AC Force/Deflection)
-Protection from Arrows (80/DR*)
These cast still leaves a Summoner with a Cha. of 10, 2 1st level spells, 2 2nd level spells (Bulls Str. anyone?) and 2 3rd level spells.

One other thing, this is a NAKED Eidolon, NO Gear at all. 8th level companion style creature; there would be gear.

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