summoners are outrageous


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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Summoners need to be fixed-

their summon monster ability is VERY potent: nearly every summoner (with a racial +2 cha) will be able to use it 7+ times per day, far more than any other caster, and with its extended duration it allows for a lot of summoned help, even if you can only have one at a time (and starting @4th level, the summoner can use Invisibilty and remain invisible while summoning them).

Eidolons are much worse!
for example: make a biped; give it Weapon Proficiency-Greatsword for its 1st level feat; put every stat increase point in strength and buy the evolutions listed (plus whatever else you want with the leftover)-

level | evolutions | str | greatsword (hit;dmg)
1 | +2 str | 18 | +5;2d6+6
5 | ... | 21 | +9;2d6+7
6 | large, +2 str(x2)| 31 | +14;3d6+15
7 | ... | 32 | +16/11;3d6+16
10 | ... | 34 | +19/14;3d6+18
11 | huge | 42 | +23/18;4d6+24
12 | +2 str (x3) | 45 | +24/19;4d6+25
14 | ... | 45 | +26/21/16;4d6+25
15 | ... | 47 | +28/23/18;4d6+27
17 | ... | 48 | +30/25/20;4d6+28
18 | +2 str (x4) | 50 | +32/27/22;4d6+30*

if those numbers don't convince you imagine adding feats (Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Improved Critical, etc.), a magic weapon and a couple buff spells (summoners can learn Bull's Strength, Haste, Rage, etc; none of which end Invisibility)- then watch your party Fighter or Barbarian throw away their character sheet in disgust and start looking for a 4th edition game to join...

Paizo, please fix this class!

(* sorry, i r n00b and cant figure out how to format this chart; if you try you should be able to decipher it- if someone wants to tell me how to fix it i will...)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
nate lange wrote:

Summoners need to be fixed-

their summon monster ability is VERY potent: nearly every summoner (with a racial +2 cha) will be able to use it 7+ times per day, far more than any other caster, and with its extended duration it allows for a lot of summoned help (and starting @4th level, the summoner can use Invisibilty and remain invisible while summoning them).

Eidolons are much worse!
for example: make a biped; give it Weapon Proficiency-Greatsword for its 1st level feat; put every stat increase point in strength and buy the evolutions listed (plus whatever else you want with the leftover)-

level | evolutions | str | greatsword (hit;dmg)
1 | +2 str | 18 | +5;2d6+6
5 | | 21 | +9;2d6+7
6 | large, +2 str(x2)| 31 | +14;3d6+15
7 | | 32 | +16/11;3d6+16
10 | | 34 | +19/14;3d6+18
11 | huge | 42 | +23/18;4d6+24
12 | +2 str (x3) | 45 | +24/19;4d6+25
14 | | 45 | +26/21/16;4d6+25
15 | | 47 | +28/23/18;4d6+27
17 | | 48 | +30/25/20;4d6+28
18 | +2 str (x4) | 50 | +32/27/22;4d6+30*

if those numbers don't convince you imagine adding feats (Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Improved Critical, etc.), a magic weapon and a couple buff spells (summoners can learn Bull's Strength, Haste, Rage, etc; none of which end Invisibility)- then watch your party Fighter or Barbarian throw away their character sheet in disgust and start looking for a 4th edition game to join...

Paizo, please fix this class!

(* sorry, i r n00b and cant figure out how to format this chart; if you try you should be able to decipher it- if someone wants to tell me how to fix it i will...)

To be honest, with combinations of magic and items, it's completely possible for a human fighter (easy example) to do this amount, if not more.

Example: 18th lv human fighter.
at 20'th level, a human fighter can have a 28 str, (16 base, +2 racial, +4 level advancements, +6 from magic item.

still, granted, that's 22 less than the eidlon, but I'm not done here.

now, considering class abilities, and a basic greatsword, we could have 2d6+13 (excluding feats, magic wepons, etc...)

Now, weapon training adds +4, as well as weapon specialization which adds +2 so were up to 2d6+19, already more than half the damage of your eidolon, but a 1/3rd the size.

The difference is this, an Eidolon can be banished, and a fighter can't. Fighter's get crap tons of feats, and the benefit of being medium. A huge Eidolon can't fit into the average dungeon, and even if you decide to summon it when you get into combat, that's a 1 minute summon time, and only once a day, meaning, you can't just call it when you need.

All in all, you say "weep", but to be honest, an eidolon pound for pound isn't as good as a fighter, it may deal more damage, but it can't do much more than that effectively.


That is chump chamge for damage at level 18. An ape Druid animal companion with great sword with armor/magic items, buffs and animal growth can pretty much do the same and the Druid is a wrecking machine too.


nate lange wrote:

Summoners need to be fixed-

their summon monster ability is VERY potent: nearly every summoner (with a racial +2 cha) will be able to use it 7+ times per day, far more than any other caster, and with its extended duration it allows for a lot of summoned help, even if you can only have one at a time (and starting @4th level, the summoner can use Invisibilty and remain invisible while summoning them).

So what? Summoned monsters are useless for doing anything more than making mobile terrain or soaking up minion attacks once you get to SM3 (in combat, at least -- they have nice utility uses, which is WHY the Summoner gets minutes/level duration). When you can only summon one at a time, their utility even there is limited. A Summoner will NOT have a huge combat impact using their SLA.

Quote:
if those numbers don't convince you imagine adding feats (Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Improved Critical, etc.), a magic weapon and a couple buff spells (summoners can learn Bull's Strength, Haste, Rage, etc; none of which end Invisibility)- then watch your party Fighter or Barbarian throw away their character sheet in disgust and start looking for a 4th edition game to join...

Sorry, but no. If you think 3 attacks for a total of 132 damage if they all hit is enough to make Fighters "throw away their character sheet in disgust", then you need to do some more research on Fighters. The linked thread shows a very straightforward, completely Core Rulebook Fighter build that deals 255 damage per round to a Balor from 200 feet away. And it's not even all that well optimized. A better-optimized Fighter, or one that uses non-Core stuff (like the feats and class options that WILL be appearing in the APG) should be able to break 300 DPR easily and could probably get to 400 DPR without too much effort.

Your Eidolon build would only have (0.85*44)+(0.6*44)+(0.35*44)= 79.2 expected damage per round against a Balor. And that's if it could get into melee range with it. In other words, FighterMan deals more than 3 times as much damage from 200 feet as SuckyEidolon deals at 10 feet.

Scarab Sages

well to be fair he didn't add in any natural attacks, which he could have up to 7 more then he listed, thats about 1d8 +25 each with even the lowest of the evolutions (tentacles). Also I noticed on your fighter you already figured in 20th level equipment which again the OP didn't do, now add in the fact that there is a summoner attached to this eidolon giving it buffs and other summons and I believe you might have a run for your money

but don't get me wrong, I still think the fighter would beat the eidolon in the end, as I believe that it should.

It's just that the biggest thing I notice on these posts is looking at either the summoner or the eidolon by themselves and not as a package deal, and also how its always overpowered compaired to this or underpowered compaired to that, instead of simply seeing it as a nice middle ground that can hold its own in some situations and not so much in others, while I don't agree with all the changes this class has gone through I think the current rule set is the best I've seen yet and makes me very tempted to try this class in my next game.

just my two cents.


Telrathel wrote:
well to be fair he didn't add in any natural attacks, which he could have up to 7 more then he listed, thats about 1d8 +25 each with even the lowest of the evolutions (tentacles).

Secondary natural attacks (which ALL natural attacks are when you use them in conjunction with a weapon) will hit at +29 for 1dx+10 damage. Not terribly impressive. Also, he's spent 16 of his 26 evolution points (4x Ability Increase, Large, Huge), and maybe even 20 (for Martial Weapon Proficiency), so he can't get many of the good natural attacks anyway. If you're building a weapon-using Eidolon, natural attacks are a very poor choice.

Quote:
Also I noticed on your fighter you already figured in 20th level equipment which again the OP didn't do

FighterMan gets to spend all his equipment on himself. SuckyEidolon doesn't; he has to share with SuckyEidolonSummoner. Adding equipment to SE isn't going to close the gap terribly much. A +5 sword helps, but it doesn't turn 70 DPR into 250 DPR.

Quote:
now add in the fact that there is a summoner attached to this eidolon giving it buffs and other summons and I believe you might have a run for your money

Now add in the fact that FighterMan is also unbuffed.

As I already mentioned, "other summons" are pretty much useless in combat once you get to SM3.


I <3 Fighterman

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

telrathel is exactly right- you're not looking at the summoner/eidolon package...

can a straight fighter do more dpr than an eidolon? i hope so! but, 1, a summoner will be doing more dpr than just his eidolon, such as the damage from his SMx monster (which may not be incredible, but it shouldnt be ignored either); 2, as was already pointed out, this is base damage for the eidolon- a +5 greatsword would make a difference (since it not only ups damage, but increase hit frequency), then add in buffs like bull's strength, haste, rage and greater heroism that the summoner casts himself (which fighterman can't do); and 3, if fighterman gets killed by said balor (which, thanks to vorpal, he will 1 in 20 swings) he is dead, if "SE" gets killed the summoner may still be able to escape (or maybe even have time to succeed on a Banishment?) and can just resummon "SE" the next day.

plus- how did the balor become the best test? most fighters will fail their will save against Dominate Monster in the first round of combat and end up doing 255 dpr to their party from 200 feet away...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

oh, also the eidolon would make the balor his b*tch in a grapple

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
nate lange wrote:
oh, also the eidolon would make the balor his b*tch in a grapple

Ever heard of that greater teleport which Balors can do at-will ?


The eidolon, as it is right now, is weak comparison to a fighter. It doesn't even reach BaB 16. Always with low HD, full of restrictions.
If someone want their eidolon not to be useless he must buy size evolutions that make the eidolon use more circumstantial than it already was.(and of course, getting rid of an eidolon is one of the easiest things in the multiverse. Dms had to refrain themselves from using dismissal, banish, AMFs to not spoil the game for the summoner)

Right now it's better to have leadership and and a fighter cohort than an eidolon. It's 2 HD lower than you, but better than the eidolon that is 5 lower. And can wear everything.

The summoner has access to spell levels later than everyone, and "one a time" SLA, that is not comparable to Summon VII-IX spam that other casters can do.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

a summoner can still take leadership... in fact, if a summoner wants to spam SM VII-IX he can get an 18th level sorcerer cohort with Augment Summoning to fill the hex-map with enough summoned creatures to grind gameplay to a halt.

also, SLAs function like spells, provoking attacks of opportunity, being interupted, etc. (bestiary 304)-
the "pinned" condition states: "A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level) or lose the spell." (core 568)- that would be a tough check even for a balor (@20 unbuffed "SE" would have around +37 CMB, more if they take Grab or Improved Grapple or both) plus the summoner can try Dimensional Anchor...

the size issue does restrict eidolon use some but, aside from a straight dungeon-crawl, a clever player should be able to overcome it most of the time. and the point is, if a class is either really OP or really under-powered depending on whether a ceiling is 5' or 15' then that class still needs some work.


Well, if you need leadership to have balanced power, then there is something wrong with the class. A high cha commoner can have a cohort sorcerer spaming summons for him as well.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Heladriell wrote:
Well, if you need leadership to have balanced power, then there is something wrong with the class. A high cha commoner can have a cohort sorcerer spaming summons for him as well.

lol- a commoner with leadership would be hilarious. and i completely agree that there's something wrong with the class- i think, the eidolon needs to be fixed and the spellcasting improved to compensate; that should make for an overall more balanced class.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Ultimately Nate, the argument isn't that Eidolon isn't powerful, it's more that it's not completely broken. It's a powerful option (honestly, I think summoner is underpowered) but it's not as broken as you can make other possibilities.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

*GROANS*

There's nothing wrong with Eidolon attack ability. A Paladin DPR against any evil opponent beats him squarely, not mentioning a Paladin against Team Evil.

Dark Archive

Can we just not feed the Troll? I am rather done with these posts that are basically saying: 'get rid of the summoner'. It is very possible to break any class, and the summoner is no exception.


nate lange wrote:
1, a summoner will be doing more dpr than just his eidolon, such as the damage from his SMx monster (which may not be incredible, but it shouldnt be ignored either);

And the combined package will be less than FighterMan deals out unbuffed.

Quote:
2, as was already pointed out, this is base damage for the eidolon- a +5 greatsword would make a difference (since it not only ups damage, but increase hit frequency), then add in buffs like bull's strength, haste, rage and greater heroism that the summoner casts himself (which fighterman can't do);

Actually, FighterMan had the option to take any hours/level buffs he wanted. He chose to go unbuffed. His unbuffed state still beats the pants off SuckyEidolon and SuckyEidolonSummoner's fully buffed and geared state.

Quote:
3, if fighterman gets killed by said balor (which, thanks to vorpal, he will 1 in 20 swings) he is dead, if "SE" gets killed the summoner may still be able to escape (or maybe even have time to succeed on a Banishment?) and can just resummon "SE" the next day.

Or the Balor could just cast blasphemy and instantly banish the Eidolon, not to mention making it save vs 1d10 minutes of paralyzation. FighterMan is at worst dazed for 1 round.

Quote:
how did the balor become the best test? most fighters will fail their will save against Dominate Monster in the first round of combat and end up doing 255 dpr to their party from 200 feet away...

FighterMan only has a 7% chance to fail his Will save against dominate monster. Can you say the same of SuckyEidolon or SuckyEidolonSummoner? This pretty clearly shows you didn't bother to actually read the thread I linked or look at FighterMan or his math at all. Poor form.

---

And besides, your original claim was that THE EIDOLON ALONE would make the Fighter "Throw away his character sheet in disgust". I notice now you've modified that to "The Eidolon PLUS his Summoner PLUS a ton of short duration buffs PLUS a summoned monster". Nice backpedaling.


nate lange wrote:
oh, also the eidolon would make the balor his b*tch in a grapple

Your Eidolon only has a 5% chance to successfully grapple a Balor. It has a CMB of 15+20+2-4 ("humanoid creatures without two free hands take a -4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll") = 33 vs the Balor's CMD of 54. SuckyEidolon needs a natural 20 to beat the Balor's CMD. On top of that, grappling is rather the Balor's shtick; grappling one on purpose is generally a bad idea. Especially when your primary attack is a greatsword, which is unusable in a grapple. The Balor, on the other hand, can freely attack with its vorpal longsword, plus your Eidolon is taking 6d6 automatic fire damage every round.

It really helps if you actually know your rules and can do basic math before you start crying wolf about how things are overpowered.


nate lange wrote:
a summoner can still take leadership... in fact, if a summoner wants to spam SM VII-IX he can get an 18th level sorcerer cohort with Augment Summoning to fill the hex-map with enough summoned creatures to grind gameplay to a halt.

No, he can't. You cannot have a cohort higher than 17th level. Another example of not knowing the rules.

Quote:

also, SLAs function like spells, provoking attacks of opportunity, being interupted, etc. (bestiary 304)-

the "pinned" condition states: "A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level) or lose the spell." (core 568)- that would be a tough check even for a balor (@20 unbuffed "SE" would have around +37 CMB, more if they take Grab or Improved Grapple or both) plus the summoner can try Dimensional Anchor...

And how on earth is your Eidolon going to pin a Balor? It needs a natural 20 to succeed the first time, then the Balor gets to act and can choose to teleport if it wants to, then your Eidolon gets to go again and needs another 20 (it gets a +5 bonus for being the "leader" in the grapple, but it still has that -4 penalty for lugging around a greatsword in one hand) to pin.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I just wanna say, Zurai, I freakin love you man.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

ok- wow, i concede defeat on the grapple check, i did NOT check how high the Balor's CMD was...

i still think the class would function better though if spellcasting was increased and the eidolon scaled back some- the oft mentioned weakness of being banishable (or subject to Blasphmy) is easily overcome by the summoner using Dimensional Anchor on his own eidolon, and, while the bit about a fighter being disgusted may be hyperbole, the point is that the eidolon is very easy to make OP in many situations and the class is too dependant on it: when its working right the class is OP and when its not the class is not very useful-

all i'm saying is that this class could be designed better

and, again- youre comparing a fully decked out fighter with complete suite of feats, etc to the bare-minimum of this class's sidekick/companion; the very fact that there's a conversation about it is evidence that there may be an issue...

also, zurai, the thread is (and has always been) that the summoner is OP, not the eidolon alone


nate lange wrote:


all i'm saying is that this class could be designed better

Indeed it could, but I think not in the direction you want to take it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Cartigan wrote:
Indeed it could, but I think not in the direction you want to take it.

i'm 100% open to trying other suggestions


nate lange wrote:
oh- and where is that link? i'm having trouble seeing how a class with +6 Will at 20th would have only a 7% chance to miss a DC27 will save?

I don't know if it answers the Will Save question, but here's the link that Zurai gave in his very first post in this thread.

Zurai wrote:
you need to do some more research on Fighters


nate lange wrote:
and, again- youre comparing a fully decked out fighter with complete suite of feats, etc to the bare-minimum of this class's sidekick/companion; the very fact that there's a conversation about it is evidence that there may be an issue...

I don't see any conversation here. A lecture, maybe. A very thorough debunking of a series of disconnected and untrue statements, for sure. No real conversation. There's been no give-and-take, no back-and-forth.

And, for the record, no, I've been comparing it to the whole deal. I'll remind you that I said this:

Zurai wrote:

And the combined package will be less than FighterMan deals out unbuffed.

...
Actually, FighterMan had the option to take any hours/level buffs he wanted. He chose to go unbuffed. His unbuffed state still beats the pants off SuckyEidolon and SuckyEidolonSummoner's fully buffed and geared state.


There is always that untrue thinking that the fighter is weak in combat when compared to other classes (where he's actually the most efficient).

Scarab Sages

as I originally said I believe fighter in the end will still come out on top against the whole summoner/eidolon combo.

with that said however I would again like to say that I still believe your putting the summoner/eidolon too low, if you would like I'll make up a summoner myself at level 18 and see how well I do against the balor (probably will do it anyway at this point just to see for myself)

as for the comment about buffs I was pointing out that a summoner can be buffing his eidolon while its attacking without slowing it down any, I did notice your fighter was unbuffed but I assumed that was because of the attempt at soloing a cr 20 where you couldn't get spells from other sources (such as party members that would normally be there) given that summoners do their own I think for this debate the summoner/eidolon should have their hour/level buffs to add against a unbuffed fighter who would need someone else to buff them.

and as for the natural attacks you put his damage numbers at 1dx+10, I was under the impression that a secondary natural attack was still at full Str mod damage? even if its 1/2 thats +12, granted not much more but still is why I'm confused on how you got to just +10 (I'll fully admit this could be my lack of monster knowledge in general)

like I said though I'm gonna run some numbers and see how far behind the fighter this combo really is.


Telrathel wrote:
and as for the natural attacks you put his damage numbers at 1dx+10, I was under the impression that a secondary natural attack was still at full Str mod damage? even if its 1/2 thats +12, granted not much more but still is why I'm confused on how you got to just +10 (I'll fully admit this could be my lack of monster knowledge in general)

Nope, secondary natural attacks are at -5 to hit and do 1/2 Strength bonus damage. That's +10 in the sample Eidolon's case because it has a 50 Strength. (50-10)/2 = a +20 bonus. 20/2 = +10 damage on secondary natural attacks.

Scarab Sages

Zurai wrote:


Nope, secondary natural attacks are at -5 to hit and do 1/2 Strength bonus damage. That's +10 in the sample Eidolon's case because it has a 50 Strength. (50-10)/2 = a +20 bonus. 20/2 = +10 damage on secondary natural attacks.

ok, still not sure why you are reducing his strength from a 50 to a 40 before you divide by 2 but yes I see your point about his secondary attacks not counting for as much, again going to run some numbers and see how much worse it really is for a fully built character.


Telrathel wrote:
Zurai wrote:


Nope, secondary natural attacks are at -5 to hit and do 1/2 Strength bonus damage. That's +10 in the sample Eidolon's case because it has a 50 Strength. (50-10)/2 = a +20 bonus. 20/2 = +10 damage on secondary natural attacks.
ok, still not sure why you are reducing his strength from a 50 to a 40 before you divide by 2

... because a Strength of 10 is a +0 bonus, not a +5. 10 is the baseline in D&D. Every 2 points above 10, you get a +1 bonus. So, a Strength of 50 is 40 points above 10, yielding a +20 bonus.


Zurai,

Its been a pleasure reading your post, and you seem to know the most about this. I looked over "FighterMan" and was wondering if you would put together an Eidolon for us to view. I'm not a powergamer or MinMaxer so i don't really know how potent they can be. I like to compare one put together by someone that knows how to get the most out of his pet.

I guess anyone else could rise to the challenge, I'm surprised no one has done it yet. Especially, the ppl saying they are too powerful. I like to see a 20 Summoner posted that they think is over powered. I thought about trying it but I'm just not that good at it.

Thanks in advance, and if you dont have time its cool.


I can try. It's a lot more complex than FighterMan was (let's face it, Fighters are pretty straightforward). The only real problem I have is that FighterMan had a clear goal: solo a Balor a reasonable percentage of the time (I think we finally agreed that he ended up losing in confined spaces and winning the rest of the time, on average). There is no clear goal for this. Do I optimize for melee damage? Melee is a bit difficult at level 20 -- just about everything flies or teleports at will or both. On the other hand, an Eidolon isn't even going to approach usefulness with a bow.

So, let's go with a support/archer Summoner and a melee Eidolon, keeping in mind that the Summoner has to be able to get his Eidolon into position to attack an arbitrary target, and that there are several other approaches to building a viable Eidolon. We'll stick with the Balor as their target, just to keep things as similar as possible.

I'll make a new thread and link it here when I'm done.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Here is an eidolon I came up with for a 15th-level summoner.

...hardly a power house. :P

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

ok, here are some numbers:

fighterman assumes that he initiates solo combat with a balor- he has no benefits that he doesn't grant himself but he chooses where/when to fight... (ie 200 ft away, in the open)-

summoner chooses anywhere that will accomodate his eidolon and let him get off a few buff spells before 'jumping' it. an eidolon with a base 50 str with bull's strength, haste, rage and greater heroism that has taken weapon focus greatsword and power attack and is using a +5 holy greatsword gets 4 attacks at +43/43/38/33 for 4d6+54+2d6(holy) damage (avg=75) against the balor's 37 AC:

((75*.95)*3)+(75*.85)= 273.75 DPR!

which i think is around where fighterman was? if you add to that a second +5 holy greatsword (which is still way under budget) and the twin eidolon ability, with the same buffs but not weapon focus or power attack and the summoner himself gets 4 attacks at +47/47/42/37 for 4d6+39+2d6(holy) damage (avg=60) against the balor's 37 AC:

((60*.95)*4)= 228 DPR

SO- together, not factoring in potential crits, with most of their feats and money unspent, a Summoner and his Eidolon should average about 501.75 DPR against the Balor (which means if they attack first it won't get to go) and his Summon Monster 9/Gate creature can, i don't know- heal or be a diversion or something.

in honesty i haven't done much play testing above 15th or 16th level, maybe this isn't as much as it seems compared to other 20th level classes... but to me it seems like over 500 DPR against one of the highest ACs in the Bestiary is a TON

i know that getting into position could be tricky, but you could always summon an astral deva to serve as bait... or charge and hope it doesnt roll a 20 before the following round when you both iterate (its not real likely that a Balor would use its first standard action to teleport when it hasn't taken much damage yet...)

Scarab Sages

Zurai wrote:


... because a Strength of 10 is a +0 bonus, not a +5. 10 is the baseline in D&D. Every 2 points above 10, you get a +1 bonus. So, a Strength of 50 is 40 points above 10, yielding a +20 bonus.

yeah sorry, total brain fart on that one.


nate lange wrote:
ok, here are some numbers:

You have still failed to read FighterMan's thread. You've violated about a half-dozen of the rules he was created and tested under.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Zurai wrote:


You have still failed to read FighterMan's thread. You've violated about a half-dozen of the rules he was created and tested under.

i read it- im spending too much time on this forum as it is and don't have enough time to build one with your rules: i'll gladly read your thread when its up though.

one other thing to think about- with that build you could also take tentacle x8 and improved damage[tentacle] (leaving one leftover evolution point), it wouldn't make a huge difference against the balor cause of his DR but they would all attack at +35 (remember, they get multi-attack for free) or +36 with weapon focus (which you would want for that many tentacles) for 2d6+16 (11 from str, with bulls strength, and 5 from power attack)= avg 23. so against not-Balor thats huge, against Balor -15 damage from DR= avg 8, but still:

((8*.95)*8)= 60.8 extra DPR (total=334.55)

and against another creature (with same AC) or if you found some way to bypass its DR:

((23*.95)*8)= 174.8 extra DPR (total=448.55)

also, i havent (and wont) do the math but i suspect that if youre willing to spend an eidolon feat on improved crit and switch everything to falchion (or curve blade) the DPR would go up there too

The Exchange

Sorry. Summoners are just crazy broke.

Sat in a PFS mod. Two summoners soloed the whole mod.
Fireballs (bisons).
Healing (CMD)
Crowd control (summon).

Admittedly, the loss of the hit dice helped (a little). The loss of attacks. But .........


At what level exactly. And I would assume a 2 caster/2 beatstick party would be capable of getting through a few encounters. Your example lacks details and a relevance.


That and two druids could prob pull off the same stunt


Alright, here is SummonerGirl and her little friend, MightyEidolon. They're as optimized within the parameters as I can make them at 2:30 AM.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

there is also a discussion there about how a summoner (w/eidolon) can solo a balor in one round...

turns out its pretty easy, the summoner just teleports the eidolon into charge range and then the eidolon charges and does an expected 435 damage (or 502 if you factor in crits)

Silver Crusade

nate lange wrote:

there is also a discussion there about how a summoner (w/eidolon) can solo a balor in one round...

turns out its pretty easy, the summoner just teleports the eidolon into charge range and then the eidolon charges and does an expected 435 damage (or 502 if you factor in crits)

It really doesn't, man. Zurai's pretty correct on this one, the Eidolon isn't really broken at all, it's actually kind of sad seeing the comparison between SG/ME and FighterMan, at least from a fan of the original summoner.

Shadow Lodge

nate lange wrote:

there is also a discussion there about how a summoner (w/eidolon) can solo a balor in one round...

turns out its pretty easy, the summoner just teleports the eidolon into charge range and then the eidolon charges and does an expected 435 damage (or 502 if you factor in crits)

*sigh*... except the Eidolon is on a 100' leash. If it breaks that range it loses a ton of HP out the gate. So maybe it would survive against the Balor but it's not a practical every day tactic.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
nate lange wrote:

there is also a discussion there about how a summoner (w/eidolon) can solo a balor in one round...

turns out its pretty easy, the summoner just teleports the eidolon into charge range and then the eidolon charges and does an expected 435 damage (or 502 if you factor in crits)

I may be missing something here, but how does the Eidolon get that much damage from one attack? Or did it get an ability that gives it the ability to get multiple attacks on a charge?

Oop, nvm, missed an evolution.


Joseph Davis wrote:
nate lange wrote:

there is also a discussion there about how a summoner (w/eidolon) can solo a balor in one round...

turns out its pretty easy, the summoner just teleports the eidolon into charge range and then the eidolon charges and does an expected 435 damage (or 502 if you factor in crits)

I may be missing something here, but how does the Eidolon get that much damage from one attack? Or did it get an ability that gives it the ability to get multiple attacks on a charge?

Pounce.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Mahrdol wrote:
Joseph Davis wrote:
nate lange wrote:

there is also a discussion there about how a summoner (w/eidolon) can solo a balor in one round...

turns out its pretty easy, the summoner just teleports the eidolon into charge range and then the eidolon charges and does an expected 435 damage (or 502 if you factor in crits)

I may be missing something here, but how does the Eidolon get that much damage from one attack? Or did it get an ability that gives it the ability to get multiple attacks on a charge?
Pounce.

Yeah, I edited it, my bad :P


Joseph Davis wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:
Joseph Davis wrote:
nate lange wrote:

there is also a discussion there about how a summoner (w/eidolon) can solo a balor in one round...

turns out its pretty easy, the summoner just teleports the eidolon into charge range and then the eidolon charges and does an expected 435 damage (or 502 if you factor in crits)

I may be missing something here, but how does the Eidolon get that much damage from one attack? Or did it get an ability that gives it the ability to get multiple attacks on a charge?
Pounce.
Yeah, I edited it, my bad :P

I think the thread was before the latest playtest changes so the Eidolon is limited to 8 attacks now instead of like 16+ or whatever it had before.

I really don't like the quad form anyway. The crappy will save is a big hole in the Eidolons defense.

Scarab Sages

Mahrdol wrote:

I think the thread was before the latest playtest changes so the Eidolon is limited to 8 attacks now instead of like 16+ or whatever it had before.
I really don't like the quad form anyway. The crappy will save is a big hole in the Eidolons defense.

nah this was all made after the latest changes, using wielded weapons you can still get more attacks then is limited to the max of natural attacks for the eidolon, and pounce just says you can make a full attack after a charge, so yes its still possible, just harder to do now.

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