HumbleGamer |
Trying to figure out whether tandem strike might be somehow better or even versatile than striking twice with a STR eidolon with boost eidolon.
My major concern is that the investement in terms of feats and attributes seems not to justify the damage in any way.
In order to be always at reach ( either the eidolon and the summoner ), steed form seems to be a very good pick.
I'd probably go with steed form ( lvl 2 ) and tandem strike ( lvl 6 ), plus extend boos ( lvl 1, through natural ambition ).
I'd also require 16 str, meaning less const ( less hp for the duo ).
Finally, being on the same spot would mean to suffer any aoe effect like under the effects of misfortune.
Didn't make any comparison in terms of hit/damage but, to justify the investement, it should be way stronger than 2x strikes from the eidolon ( and at first glance, it's not ).
Any suggestion how tandem strike might be a good alternative?
Squiggit |
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I did some math when the class first came out, Tandem Strike with a greatsword was competitive numerically with the eidolon making two strikes.
If your weapon gets much smaller than that, you actually can end up reducing your damage output with the feat.
If Summoners had normal martial proficiency progression, Tandem Strike would be slightly better, but Paizo wanted it to be a trap feat instead.
.. so try to convince your GM to let you take sixth pillar even though it's been flagged by the developers and then pick up something like Dragon Stance (or maybe Stumbling) via martial artist dedication.
With those three extra feats, Tandem Strike is almost worth using.
Castilliano |
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Tandem Strike is good in the abstract, as if one could have a Summoner that was viable in melee. Yet it's simply not worth the investment necessary to make such a Summoner who will then fail in melee anyway like the full casters do (and it struggles worse than some). Even at its peak that 1st attack remains about equivalent to a Boosted Agile 2nd attack by the Eidelon anyway (who is getting better damage due to Specialization). Especially when often you could be casting a MAPless Cantrip.
There's simply no reason take a feat that requires you to put your more fragile half of the character into direct threat. I think the awesome imagery & theme of the combo cannot be achieved in practice.
Also note if you have Natural Ambition, you're human, meaning you can't mount your Eidelon until 8th, when you can take Hulking Size to make it viable as a mount. Or I suppose 5th w/ Evolution Surge, but that's a costly start to cast & mount every first round.
"Any suggestion how tandem strike might be a good alternative?"
Alternative to what? I'm not sure Tandem Strike can be a better alternative than standard Summoner tactics of Strike + Cantrip from a safer spot. I think the feat serves its purpose for particular builds, but that those builds are traps. And I don't think it's a better alternative than other classes w/ steed builds.
The extra attack from an AoO or the AoE from Eidelon's Wrath both represent better damage sources IMO, and at less risk.
Lycar |
Am I missing something? Isn't the point of Tandem Actions to be an action economy booster? I mean, it is probably really not a great idea to try to melee as a caster type, but at least that one would allow some extra mobility or utility.
Like, move into a flanking position, strike twice with Tandem Strike and still have an action left to do something useful with? Raise Shield for example? Or step/move your fragile caster self out of harm's way again?
Or maybe if you actually ride your Eidolon, move into range, Tandem Strike, disengage again skirmisher style?
Squiggit |
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Tandem Strike isn't an action economy booster, it's two strikes for two actions.
The upshot is that both strikes are at the same MAP, but the summoner is -2 compared to the eidolon and will likely do less damage per strike, which means in practice Tandem Strike ends up being worth little to no damage (or sometimes even less damage than normal, depending on your build). Which kind of sucks for something you spend a 6th level feat (and investing attributes and potentially gold on gear) on.
MadamReshi |
Could Tandem Strike be worth it for a class such as Fighter to take if they get the Summoner Archetype (particularly in a Free Archetype game?) It could take a while to scale up but it could be somewhat attractive. I know you do not get Act Together unfortunately, but there could be other ways to make the character concept work, and you can get Tandem Movement beforehand.
graystone |
Also note if you have Natural Ambition, you're human, meaning you can't mount your Eidelon until 8th, when you can take Hulking Size to make it viable as a mount. Or I suppose 5th w/ Evolution Surge, but that's a costly start to cast & mount every first round.
You can get Adopted from background, heritages or ancestry feats. So you could be small AND take Natural Ambition from level 1+.
Gortle |
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The problem with Tandem Strike is it is a moderate benefit. It is not an action economy boost. It is not especially better than Strike + Cantrip.
Yes it is OK and it does suit some builds.
Its main problem is it is a level 6 Summoner Feat and it is competing against Eidolon's Opportunity and Eidolon's Wrath (a focus spell that is basically a fireball variant) ie two real power options. On top of which there are another 3 good feats in level 6 Summoner, and another 3 good feats at level 8 as well.
Finding space for it is hard. It really needs to be important to your concept to fit it in.
Some classes have terrible feats. Not the Summoner.
Lycar |
Tandem Strike isn't an action economy booster, it's two strikes for two actions.
Oh, I overlooked that that is a two-action activity. I went off Act Together and Tandem Movement, which are economy boosters. My bad.
That also seems to indicate that a melee Summoner should absolutely take Tandem Movement, if they plan on using Tandem Strike.
HumbleGamer |
Squiggit wrote:Tandem Strike isn't an action economy booster, it's two strikes for two actions.Oh, I overlooked that that is a two-action activity. I went off Act Together and Tandem Movement, which are economy boosters. My bad.
That also seems to indicate that a melee Summoner should absolutely take Tandem Movement, if they plan on using Tandem Strike.
Using the eidolon as a mount is even better.
- Less reactions triggered by movement
- Always able to be within the enemy
- one less target ( enemies won't probably attack either the mount and the rider).
Tandem movement is quite good if you plan to play the standard spellcaster summoner + melee eidolon.
Red Metal |
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Could Tandem Strike be worth it for a class such as Fighter to take if they get the Summoner Archetype (particularly in a Free Archetype game?) It could take a while to scale up but it could be somewhat attractive. I know you do not get Act Together unfortunately, but there could be other ways to make the character concept work, and you can get Tandem Movement beforehand.
Summoner Dedication explicitly forbids you from gaining or using tandem actions, so that wouldn't work.
MadamReshi |
MadamReshi wrote:Could Tandem Strike be worth it for a class such as Fighter to take if they get the Summoner Archetype (particularly in a Free Archetype game?) It could take a while to scale up but it could be somewhat attractive. I know you do not get Act Together unfortunately, but there could be other ways to make the character concept work, and you can get Tandem Movement beforehand.Summoner Dedication explicitly forbids you from gaining or using tandem actions, so that wouldn't work.
That is a real shame :(
Ximen Bao |
Been a hot minute since I posted here, can't remember the board preference about new threads vs topical necromancy. So arise!
What about if we let tandem strike be ranged? Summoner still doesn't have great proficiencies, so it doesn't seem too broken. I have a summoner considering a gunslinger dedication, and allowing it to work with tandem strike doesn't scream broken to me.
Squiggit |
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Tandem Strike can be used well to achieve the level of 'not bad'. It has the ability to actualize an interesting character(s) concept. That said, mechanically, it will probably never achieve 'good'.
I agree it's nice in that it enables a character concept, but it's frustrating to spend a level 6 feat to essentially just break even with where you'd be if you just played 'normally'
Castilliano |
Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:Tandem Strike can be used well to achieve the level of 'not bad'. It has the ability to actualize an interesting character(s) concept. That said, mechanically, it will probably never achieve 'good'.I agree it's nice in that it enables a character concept, but it's frustrating to spend a level 6 feat to essentially just break even with where you'd be if you just played 'normally'
Yes, a break-even feat should be 1st or 2nd level (given several examples among martial classes). I wonder what math Paizo used here, likely that of an AoO which then suggests 6th except a Summoner's pseudo-extra attack isn't the same as an Eidelon's which is among the weaker of martial Strikes (given it can't apply most of its cool abilities to an AoO). Except Paizo does balance around strongest-case scenarios, such as a Summoner who dumps Cha or as BHC suggested, uses a Battle Form (which would make the Summoner's "extra" Strike on par with the Eidelon's).
Dragonchess Player |
Tandem Strike can be decent if the summoner and/or the eidolon has/have a high Str and the attack(s) has/have the grapple trait. The grabbed and restrained conditions are not fun.
It's an edge case, though.
breithauptclan |
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maybe a martial with summoner archetype can make it work
That was covered earlier in this thread. Summoner Archetype forbids you from gaining or using Tandem actions.
When measuring how good or not good Tandem Strike is, you can safely assume that it is on a Summoner base class character.