Combat Medic - Potential new trend?

[Invictus Fatum]

I am literally still reading through the Playtest material and have come across Combat Medic. From the lvl 1 feat:

You are trained in Medicine and can use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Wisdom modifier for Medicine checks.

This is something that 2e has mostly avoided doing that was very rampant in PF1e. That is to say, changing the ability mod for a skill or action. The only other one I know of is the Thief being able to do dex-to-damage (though there may be another I'm missing). Sure, there are a few that let you use a different skill, but those are usually for very specific activities, and not replacing the mod used for a skill, but what skill is used.

Honestly, while I know a lot of people might like this, I'm not convinced it is a good trend for the game. Once it is in place, that opens the door to other feats to do similar and frankly, I'm not a fan and as a former power gamer in 1e, it was heavily abused there. Am I over reacting?

[Finoan]

Chirurgeon says, "Hi".

[Zoken44]

I don't know if you're wrong, but I do disagree.

I am rather fond of, when appropriate, letting them use a different ability score. Especially if a class is kind of MAD.

For instance is an alchemist is trying to convince someone, and their role play on that has been that they are info-dumping, I would allow them to use their int modifier for a diplomacy check.

[pixierose]

I mean it was already in place since the core rulebook with thief rogue, and the Chirurgeon kind of. They have used it sparingly since then, and I trust Paizo to continue to only apply it in specific circumstances.

[Ectar]

Thaumaturge's Esoteric Lore is, as I recall, the only Lore that uses Cha. Because #JustThaumaturgeThings

[MadamReshi]

pixierose wrote:

I mean it was already in place since the core rulebook with thief rogue, and the Chirurgeon kind of. They have used it sparingly since then, and I trust Paizo to continue to only apply it in specific circumstances.

To expand upon this, I suspect that Paizo are concious of how classes like Investigator and Alchemist have had some small awkward issues about how they are classes that Strike with weapons but their key ability score is Intelligence, and that Intelligence is overall considered one of the weakest Key Attributes.

I think they may have decided that, for some classes, giving the option to use a different mod for skills to make the class less MAD may be an OK design space.

[alsyr]

Using different ability modifiers for skills is already allowed at the GM's discretion. That feat seems like a natural extension of this rule.

[Errenor]

I see a place where they should've mentioned changing stat, but haven't: "Special If you have this tactic prepared, you can use Warfare Lore in place of Athletics for checks you make to Climb/Swim." Really, even if it's Lore, strength must be used here.

[QuidEst]

Errenor wrote:

I see a place where they should've mentioned changing stat, but haven't: "Special If you have this tactic prepared, you can use Warfare Lore in place of Athletics for checks you make to Climb/Swim." Really, even if it's Lore, strength must be used here.

Nah, they don't need to specify it. See: Chirurgeon.

[Gortle]

Invictus Fatum wrote:

Honestly, while I know a lot of people might like this, I'm not convinced it is a good trend for the game. Once it is in place, that opens the door to other feats to do similar and frankly, I'm not a fan and as a former power gamer in 1e, it was heavily abused there. Am I over reacting?

Yes. Occasionally for one skill it is fine. For attacks it is not.

Medicine had this already with Natural Medicine, except they did it badly.

[Mellored]

I have no issue with medicine using Int.

I do find it a little odd you can Swim and Climb with Warfare Lore.

I mean, you spent 10 minutes preparing, but still a bit odd.

[Easl]

Mellored wrote:

I have no issue with medicine using Int.

I do find it a little odd you can Swim and Climb with Warfare Lore.

I mean, you spent 10 minutes preparing, but still a bit odd.

Combat Medic, Deceptive Tactics, Plant Banner, and Rapid Assessment all open up some interesting Archetype combos for Wizard and Witch. They're all L1 or L2 feats (rather than tactics, like the swim and climb switches), so they will be almost immediately available to anyone taking the class archetype. You think Wizards can't heal? Think again. And as an added bonus for those classes, I am guessing the Commander archetype is going to come with some armor proficiency. How's that for a caster support package?

***

My first thought on reading through is that this class could create some amazing action compression...for the right, unusual, party. Form Up? Strides for everyone for the price of 1 action. That's better than the Air Kineticist's Four Winds. Shields Up? Could give 3- or 4-for-1 action economy if everyone's using one. I'm also seeing Piranha Assault as solving a fair amount of problems for an all-martial party. Forget RK or probing for different weaknesses - just charge right in on round 1, knowing your Commander did the setup for you. For a party with a lot of ranged strikers, there's some good action compression too (Reload, Ready Aim Fire, Executioner's Volley). But you almost have to build the party around the Commander to get really big benefits from these tactics; I worry that many of them will not be of major benefit in a "classic" party of, say, Commander, second (melee?) martial, blaster (caster), & second caster.

Someone on one of the other Commander threads mentioned the Kineticist gets basically no benefit from most of these because they don't strike. I agree, and would expand on that comment to include more classic casters too. I like that at least one of the tactics says (paraphrasing) "squadmates with cantrips can cast one as a reaction instead of striking", and I'd suggest the devs seriously consider incorporating that concept more broadly; i.e. to also include kineticst 1a EBs and to add this "Special" into more tactics than just one. This would let everyone get in on the commander fun, and make the class more effective to many more party mixes.

[kwodo]

Easl wrote:

Combat Medic, Deceptive Tactics, Plant Banner, and Rapid Assessment all open up some interesting Archetype combos for Wizard and Witch. They're all L1 or L2 feats (rather than tactics, like the swim and climb switches), so they will be almost immediately available to anyone taking the class archetype.

see now the "Requirements You can prepare at least two tactics." on Combat Medic makes me think that they thought of this and the Commander archetype will only let you prepare one, thus locking those feats to Commander and Commander alone unless a higher level feat in the archetype lets you prepare a second tactic.

[Errenor]

QuidEst wrote:

Errenor wrote:

I see a place where they should've mentioned changing stat, but haven't: "Special If you have this tactic prepared, you can use Warfare Lore in place of Athletics for checks you make to Climb/Swim." Really, even if it's Lore, strength must be used here.

Nah, they don't need to specify it. See: Chirurgeon.

But Chirurgeon fully and explicitly changes Medicine to Crafting. And I say exactly that must not happen here: swimming and climbing checks must still be based on Str. Proficiency from Warfare Lore? Sure. But check is still based on Str.

Easl wrote:

Form Up? Strides for everyone for the price of 1 action. That's better than the Air Kineticist's Four Winds.

Compare also with Loose Time's Arrow, which is 2 actions, 2nd rank slot and gives Step or Stride only on allies' turns (but doesn't cost reactions).

Easl wrote:

Someone on one of the other Commander threads mentioned the Kineticist gets basically no benefit from most of these because they don't strike. I agree, and would expand on that comment to include more classic casters too. I like that at least one of the tactics says (paraphrasing) "squadmates with cantrips can cast one as a reaction instead of striking", and I'd suggest the devs seriously consider incorporating that concept more broadly; i.e. to also include kineticst 1a EBs and to add this "Special" into more tactics than just one.

This is 15th level tactics btw. We basically can forget about casters' offensive support. Other options can help casters though.

[QuidEst]

kwodo wrote:

Easl wrote:

Combat Medic, Deceptive Tactics, Plant Banner, and Rapid Assessment all open up some interesting Archetype combos for Wizard and Witch. They're all L1 or L2 feats (rather than tactics, like the swim and climb switches), so they will be almost immediately available to anyone taking the class archetype.

see now the "Requirements You can prepare at least two tactics." on Combat Medic makes me think that they thought of this and the Commander archetype will only let you prepare one, thus locking those feats to Commander and Commander alone unless a higher level feat in the archetype lets you prepare a second tactic.

Efficient Preparation is 6th level, so it can be taken at 12th. If it sticks around, that'd be how the archetype gets access.

[Easl]

QuidEst wrote:

kwodo wrote:

see now the "Requirements You can prepare at least two tactics." on Combat Medic makes me think that they thought of this and the Commander archetype will only let you prepare one, thus locking those feats to Commander and Commander alone unless a higher level feat in the archetype lets you prepare a second tactic.

Efficient Preparation is 6th level, so it can be taken at 12th. If it sticks around, that'd be how the archetype gets access.

Ah I missed the requirement. Disappointing, but you're probably right. I would in fact speculate none tactics with the dedication and 1 with the next in the chain.

[Xenocrat]

In PF1 attribute substitution let you use a good stat for a bad one. These feats and class abilities are letting you use the worst stat in place of one of the best ones.

[Invictus Fatum]

Xenocrat wrote:

In PF1 attribute substitution let you use a good stat for a bad one. These feats and class abilities are letting you use the worst stat in place of one of the best ones.

That is completely situational. In PF1e I constantly replaced Cha with Int for "Use Magic Device" to great effect with classes like Witch or Wizard.

In this case, INT is the class' KAS, making it extremely good for Commander. Especially co.bined with the things it can inherently do with Lore Warfare.

[Xenocrat]

It's a KAS that doesn't do much for the Commander, very little indeed unless you build into it. Maybe the full release will have a lot more tactics or feats that rely on the class DC.