Lots of archetypes and prestige classes just don't compare to sticking with a basic PC class.
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I think eventually there will be an archetype or hybrid class that hybridizes every single pairing of class in the game. Some of them invariably aren't going to be very good (though I'm looking forward to the monkslinger and the kinetiwitch), it so happens this is one of them.
I mean the WMH is a huge upgrade to vanilla fighters, and some parts of it were written before other parts, so if your archetype is now inferior to the vanilla fighter, you can get in the line behind the crossbowman archetype.
I am unable to tell what you are suggesting. Are you suggesting it's good? Bad? A weird mix?
I mean, Free-style looks like it's giving up a lot compared to the Martial Master archetype (and it is), but unlike the Martial it comes online immediately, and pretty much as a solid advantage until level five - while the MM has one more "constant" feat, the Free-style can have any feat needed, when needed.
The other benefit that Martial lacks is the Style mastery ability. While the Martial can "fake it" with a Weapon Focus ability, the Free-style can have multiple styles active at the same time, while the Martial still has to focus on a single weapon.
As an aside, I'm really unsure what Suthainn was suggesting: it's now 2016 and the Martial Master was 2014, while the Freestyle was 2015. Which was supposedly the older one? Sorry. It's confusing, considering the OP was talking about Free-style Fighter, comparing to Martial Master, and the Barroom Brawler feat (which was also 2014).
Basically, I think the "design space" of the Free-style is supposed to be the lower levels where it is solidly ahead of the Martial, and the Style-feats thereafter (kind of like a non-lawful pseudo-Master of Many Styles Monk).
Does... does that answer the question?
Lots of archetypes and prestige classes just don't compare to sticking with a basic PC class.
Is that... is that what he was suggesting? I'm... I'm unsure.
EDIT:
I think eventually there will be an archetype or hybrid class that hybridizes every single pairing of class in the game. Some of them invariably aren't going to be very good (though I'm looking forward to the monkslinger and the kinetiwitch), it so happens this is one of them.
I mean the WMH is a huge upgrade to vanilla fighters, and some parts of it were written before other parts, so if your archetype is now inferior to the vanilla fighter, you can get in the line behind the crossbowman archetype.
Ah. Okay. This, at least, gives me some context for what's being discussed. It's weird - the way the OP puts it, I couldn't tell what he was trying to get at. Sorry. I must have missed another conversation somewhere, or just be having a hard time focusing.
I'm saying it's awful. You have to give up SO much to do be a Free-Style Fighter. Just play Master of Many Styles 1/Brawler X or and you come out ahead.
Maybe I should ask how it compares to other things. I don't see how it could be good, or even fair, compared so similar things that already exist.
I tend to agree that it's... not a good deal. Basically, take what PossibleCabbage said, make it more wordy, and throw a mild positive spin, and you've got my own opinion.
But there are a few benefits.
- this way, you're a single-class; that is, in fact, a benefit, allowing you to get your FCB for your career
- again, low-level dominance is what this is for:
* * * > more hit points (on average) than a monk/brawler
* * * > better BAB than a monk/brawler
* * * > proficiencies than a monk/brawler
* * * > more hit points (on average) than a monk/brawler
* * * > (related to single-classing) more SAD than a monk/brawler
* * * > (related to single-classing) simpler than a monk/brawler
The fighter, as a fighter, really doesn't "feel" like he's lost anything (and, in fact, has gained, relatively, more than a base fighter) until level 5 (the first point at which he does, in fact, lose something).
Thereafter? I agree: it's a pretty rapid decline. Levels five, seven, and nine just... suck. I could see this being used to get into martial prestige classes, maybe (like an early entry thing? Four levels and then quit?), but I'd tend to agree: if you're going anything beyond level five, I'd recommend something else.
That said, the answer to your question, "How is this a thing?" is simply that: it is a thing, because it fills a (very niche) design space.
... also could make for a nice NPC class. I'm always on the lookout for those. (Adds it to the list, along with the Assassin PrC.) :)
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As an aside, I'm really unsure what Suthainn was suggesting: it's now 2016 and the Martial Master was 2014, while the Freestyle was 2015.
I totally thought it was the Free Hand Fighter for some reason, which is... 5 or 6 years old now I think? Thanks for pointing out the mistake :)
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The archetype trades out weapon training, and was introduced in the same book that grants Advanced Weapon Training. Both the Free-Style Fighter and the Martial Master give up weapon training, so they are both poor choices. If you want feats on the fly, be a brawler, you give up too much if you go fighter.
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The archetype trades out weapon training, and was introduced in the same book that grants Advanced Weapon Training. Both the Free-Style Fighter and the Martial Master give up weapon training, so they are both poor choices. If you want feats on the fly, be a brawler, you give up too much if you go fighter.
As the person who invented advanced weapon trainings, I disagree that martial master is a poor choice as a result of its giving up of advanced weapon trainings.
In fact, I think that it balances martial master out considerably, because before advanced weapon trainings I personally thought that martial master was a brainless choice for fighters, similar to lore warden.
I admit I'm biased against Martial Flexibility because I don't like the bookkeeping, and I prefer feats be accessible all day. It's a powerful option for giving you versatility in combat, but I stand by the statement that I don't think it's a useful as AWT.
Agreed wholeheartedly. For me, one of the appeals of playing a fighter to begin with is that I don't generally run out of "the thing I do well" , and that I have the feats to spare to be really good at the one thing. "You can use a combat feat you don't have" is more useful when you don't have more combat feats than anybody else and "you run out of this ability" is less appealing when you're an all day class to begin with. Plus all the bookkeeping.
So now that AWT exists, "Weapon Training" is the one fighter class feature for which I am inclined to reject an archetype completely for trading it out.