is it just me or is the alchemist archetypes....


Advice


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Construct Rider, Homunculist and Promethean Alchemist seem to be really cool but seem to neuter the alchemist's power in one way or another be it getting rid of your bombs or mutagens or neutering your bombs or potions or poisons.

is it really worth getting rid of your Brew Potion, mutagens, and a discovery for a vat grown/sculpted horse?

is it worth giving up your mutagens and the ability to use poisons worth creating a small creature that can act as your familiar that you can experiment?

and the worse offender the Promethean Alchemist which only leaves you with poisons and extracts. and gives you a pet.

like i said before all these classes seem really cool then i see what they take away and think to myself "my god why would want to be defenseless?" also the creatures they give you can't be healed with CLW....i see issues with just keeping these things alive with the dm i have.

is giving up any of those class abilities worth what those archetypes give?


yes it is, yes it is, and yes, it is.

Next question.


The answer is "possibly." It depends on what you want out of the Alchemist.


Honestly the homunculist is probably the best out of the three, with the promethean being second and the construct rider being a much further back third.


Most archtypes take more then give. In all three cases they take far too much to make them worth it. The only two Alchemist Archtypes I feel worth the loss are The Goblin Bomber from Monster Codex and The Rage Chemist. Neither takes anything that can't be replaced or really won't be missed.


Derek Dalton wrote:
The only two Alchemist Archtypes I feel worth the loss are The Goblin Bomber from Monster Codex and The Rage Chemist. Neither takes anything that can't be replaced or really won't be missed.

The Ragechemist archetype can easily cripple a character with the debilitating penalties to Will saves and Intelligence.

Meanwhile, Beastmorph/Vivisectionist is a classic and powerful combination for melee combatants. As long as you weren't planning on using bombs as your primary role in combat, the combination definitely gives more than it takes.


I wish there were more archetypes that removed bombs.


Bombs and mutagens are what make an Alchemist. I'd rather have both but I'm willing to give up one or the other if they offer something worth the loss. A couple of archtypes you lose mutagen but can take a discovery to regain it. Losing Bombs is painful because you can't get them back.


It does depend on play style. For example, if your character never touches poison but does use bombs a lot, grenadier is helpful. What I like to use archetypes for is to cut out the suboptimal features and gain some better ones. This can vary. There is melee alchemists, bombers, and more. You have to find a concept that only gains things from archetypes. Otherwise, you still lose valuable things. To use your listed archetypes effectively, you need concepts that don't need poison use or mutagens as much.


Derek Dalton wrote:
Bombs and mutagens are what make an Alchemist.

There's more to alchemy than explosions and mutating yourself. I've actively tried to get rid of bombs on my alchemists since I've never had a concept that made sense with bombs, and many alchemist concepts I've made wouldn't be keen on mutagen considering how much they weaken the mind.


Choose some of the other mutagens and the bombs are what gives the Alchemist his damage. I have played a couple of low level ones and had a blast playing them. I held my own compared to the Anti Paladin as far as damage output. I find the spells lack luster except for a few. Poison use is nice but I can lose it and not blink. The crafting aspect was never a selling point for me.


Derek Dalton wrote:
The bombs are what gives the Alchemist his damage.

Your point? Bombs don't fit with a lot of alchemist concepts I've had, so don't want bombs.


Derek Dalton wrote:
Bombs and mutagens are what make an Alchemist...the bombs are what gives the Alchemist his damage.

Many alchemists can deal boatloads of damage from simple physical attacks.

My main problem with non-archetyped alchemists is that although they have several things they can potentially do pretty well, they can only ever do one thing at a time. I tend to prefer archetypes like vivisectionist that sacrifice some of this redundant ability in favor of becoming particularly good at a specific task, relying on extracts and items for versatility.

And regardless of whether or not you like vivisectionist, the beastmorph archetype is an excellent option. Even before you get the spectacular combat strength at levels 10 and 16, it provides some marvelously useful abilities that, at least in my eyes, far outshine those it replaces. Scent at level 3? Flight at level 6? Yes, please.


Fair enough I think an Alchemist without bombs or Mutagens lacking.


Derek Dalton wrote:
Choose some of the other mutagens and the bombs are what gives the Alchemist his damage. I have played a couple of low level ones and had a blast playing them. I held my own compared to the Anti Paladin as far as damage output. I find the spells lack luster except for a few. Poison use is nice but I can lose it and not blink. The crafting aspect was never a selling point for me.

Eh. I don't view it as 'giving him his damage'. Great damage, mind you, and I love having the option to nova on that 'less than 10' touch ac of a dragon...but that is not what you use the bombs for. Not really.

I mean...one bomb alone is only worth as much as a sneak attack (situational, but it is a standard for 'boatloads of damage' when they get in- why some kind slightly fear facing off against two rogues), and you can only full attack with it a couple times a day. Bomb damage is not something to base your entire character around.

Discoveries are what you use it for. They basically make most of the bombs into AoE spells with various debuffs and battlefield control. Dispel, stun, entangle, poison, nauseate, etc. Bombs have fairly good DC's;that nice 10+level/2+stat kind used for things like hexes-scales well. If you removed the damage and just make it puffs of smoke and splashes of chemical reactions, I would hardly complain about it.


Milo v3 wrote:
Derek Dalton wrote:
The bombs are what gives the Alchemist his damage.

Your point? Bombs don't fit with a lot of alchemist concepts I've had, so don't want bombs.

how do you do dmg? are you sneaky staby alchemist? asking an alchemist to get rid of his bombs and mutagens is like asking a paladin to get rid of his bless and lay on hands. i think never played a paladin.


You could certainly make the argument that if you want an alchemist without bombs or mutagen (and hence "mutation" as a theme in general) you may need to consider if your concept would be better served with Investigator.

But usually the things they receive for trading those away still has distinct alchemist flavor, so there's that.


zainale wrote:
how do you do dmg? are you sneaky staby alchemist? asking an alchemist to get rid of his bombs and mutagens is like asking a paladin to get rid of his bless and lay on hands. i think never played a paladin.

1. Visectionist who does sneak attack is generally the closest I have access to, lack of other damage options is the reason why I want More archetypes that trade away bombs, so that there are damage options other than bombs.

2. It doesn't matter how I do damage without bombs in this case... because even if my alchemist has bombs as a class feature, I will not use them. At all. Because my concept doesn't make sense to have bombs.


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"Milo v3 wrote:
2. It doesn't matter how I do damage without bombs in this case... because even if my alchemist has bombs as a class feature, I will not use them. At all. Because my concept doesn't make sense to have bombs.

I for one would love to hear about your alchemist concept. Sounds like something I would like to play.


Promethean alchemist just takes advantage of improved action economy. At its simplest, the construct can fire a crossbow every round. At its more complex, it can be a flying UMD monkey.

The construct also makes a pretty decent scout having flight, darkvision and telepathy for communication. It is also a construct meaning it should have all construct traits. This gives your party a sleepless guard to watch over you while you rest.

And this may not be intended, but being a construct also opens your companion to the possibility of being improved through the construct modifications option. So, you could graft weapons onto it or raise its hp to max.


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Milo v3 wrote:
I've actively tried to get rid of bombs on my alchemists

Have you tried Improved Feint + Deceptive Exchange? It's rather good for getting rid of bombs.


Dr Styx wrote:
I for one would love to hear about your alchemist concept. Sounds like something I would like to play.

I have a thing for Biotech and Organic Technology so my concepts for alchemists are normally physicians who know the perfect places to cut, and I made an archetype that did things like make grafts that give bonuses to you and your allies, or use that archetype that lets you "summon creatures" as monsters you've made with your horrible experiments. None of those made sense to have bombs (except for the one who studied dragon biology), since their knowledge was in internal alchemy and biology.

Another concept I had was a shaman type character who mixes herbs and such to create mystical elixirs and had that option that replaced mutagens with the mind enhancing ones. It didn't really make sense for him to have bombs since he was a friggin shaman who provides knowledge and elixirs not "I know how to mix these chemicals together to make an explosive".


Milo v3 wrote:
Dr Styx wrote:
I for one would love to hear about your alchemist concept. Sounds like something I would like to play.

I have a thing for Biotech and Organic Technology so my concepts for alchemists are normally physicians who know the perfect places to cut, and I made an archetype that did things like make grafts that give bonuses to you and your allies, or use that archetype that lets you "summon creatures" as monsters you've made with your horrible experiments. None of those made sense to have bombs (except for the one who studied dragon biology), since their knowledge was in internal alchemy and biology.

Another concept I had was a shaman type character who mixes herbs and such to create mystical elixirs and had that option that replaced mutagens with the mind enhancing ones. It didn't really make sense for him to have bombs since he was a friggin shaman who provides knowledge and elixirs not "I know how to mix these chemicals together to make an explosive".

that biotech organic tech alchemist sounds like it would be cool to play. too bad it would be a 3rd party addition and my dm does not allow 3rd party stuff


zainale wrote:
that biotech organic tech alchemist sounds like it would be cool to play. too bad it would be a 3rd party addition and my dm does not allow 3rd party stuff

Best way to do it 1st party would be to give a look to the Chirurgeon, Clone Master, Internal Alchemist, Preservationist, and Vivisectionist archetypes. You can even mix Chirurgeon/Vivisectionist/Internal Alchemist or Preservationist/Vivisectionist. Then put ranks in Craft (Prosthetics) or Craft (Animal)(Note the animal you craft will be a corpse since you can only craft objects and I'd imagine many Gm's might not allow it) or Craft (Alchemy) and Master Craftsmen+Craft Wondrous Item to make magical biotech (primarily through either custom item creation or reflavouring of 1st party items)


i haven't checked yet.. but toxicant mixed with a bomb giving up one sounds pretty stylish.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Keep in mind that Mutagen is available as a discovery for any alchemist archetype that lacks it, so in reality it's just costing you a discovery. Overall, I think the Alchemist archetypes are pretty good. There's only one trap (Ragechemist), and the worst you can say about the others is that they're below average.


I think you are nerfing yourself not to use the bombs. You keep mentioning the sneak attack, that's a Rogue's specialty. I suggest you play one instead. They can with the right archtype and talents do everything an Alchemist can do without losing their most powerful ability Sneak attack.
Something you seem to miss about the Alchemist. They are not meant to be frontline melee fighters. With the right discoveries you can provide backup to a fighter but you will never be as good as a fighter. Simple weapons, light armor and no shields. That should be a clue these guys are not meant to be in the frontline. Second and more importantly their Baba is two points lower then a fighter. A 7th level Alchemist has a BAB of +5. A fighter has a +7,+2. That is where their bombs make the difference, touch AC.


Quote:
I think you are nerfing yourself not to use the bombs. You keep mentioning the sneak attack, that's a Rogue's specialty. I suggest you play one instead. They can with the right archtype and talents do everything an Alchemist can do without losing their most powerful ability Sneak attack.

Um... Except for the biology powers and you know friggin extracts... Extracts are a great deal more the focus of the alchemist than bombs. I'm not taking sneak attack because I want to be a stealthy guy. I'm taking it because it's basically the only option that fits with the concept.


None of the extracts make lose of bombs worth it.


Derek Dalton wrote:
None of the extracts make lose of bombs worth it.

Dude, we get it, you like the bombs. Not everyone does :P

Shadow Lodge

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zainale wrote:

Construct Rider, Homunculist and Promethean Alchemist seem to be really cool but seem to neuter the alchemist's power in one way or another be it getting rid of your bombs or mutagens or neutering your bombs or potions or poisons.

is it really worth getting rid of your Brew Potion, mutagens, and a discovery for a vat grown/sculpted horse?

is it worth giving up your mutagens and the ability to use poisons worth creating a small creature that can act as your familiar that you can experiment?

and the worse offender the Promethean Alchemist which only leaves you with poisons and extracts. and gives you a pet.

like i said before all these classes seem really cool then i see what they take away and think to myself "my god why would want to be defenseless?" also the creatures they give you can't be healed with CLW....i see issues with just keeping these things alive with the dm i have.

is giving up any of those class abilities worth what those archetypes give?

Can't really speak for all of them but the Promethean Alchemist really does get the good end of the stick. You trade out mutagens, brew potion, and throw anything for what is essentially a construct familiar (with all the construct benefits therein), fast bab, d10 health, simple weapon proficiency, human shape (so normal armor works), telepathy with you, and the ability to share extracts with. That is super f*#@ing strong, constant, and arguably more versatile than mutagens any day.


No I'm saying you should consider another class. Investigator sounds more your style. That's what I'm saying.


Derek Dalton wrote:
No I'm saying you should consider another class. Investigator sounds more your style. That's what I'm saying.

Considering investigator can't do the concept I mentioned at all.... not really?


doc the grey wrote:
Can't really speak for all of them but the Promethean Alchemist really does get the good end of the stick. You trade out mutagens, brew potion, and throw anything for what is essentially a construct familiar (with all the construct benefits therein), fast bab, d10 health, simple weapon proficiency, human shape (so normal armor works), telepathy with you, and the ability to share extracts with. That is super f*&!ing strong, constant, and arguably more versatile than mutagens any day.

It's an ok archetype, but it trades away bombs too, so it's not as good as you implied. I still think it's a valid archetype, but it's not a straight upgrade. It's almost stonelord-like in how different it is from its base class.

But really, an archetype that is a straight upgrade over its base, should be considered a bad archetype from a design standpoint. Of course, if all you care about is min-maxing your own character, then you would only care about the straight upgrades.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Melkiador wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
Can't really speak for all of them but the Promethean Alchemist really does get the good end of the stick. You trade out mutagens, brew potion, and throw anything for what is essentially a construct familiar (with all the construct benefits therein), fast bab, d10 health, simple weapon proficiency, human shape (so normal armor works), telepathy with you, and the ability to share extracts with. That is super f*&!ing strong, constant, and arguably more versatile than mutagens any day.

It's an ok archetype, but it trades away bombs too, so it's not as good as you implied. I still think it's a valid archetype, but it's not a straight upgrade. It's almost stonelord-like in how different it is from its base class.

But really, an archetype that is a straight upgrade over its base, should be considered a bad archetype from a design standpoint. Of course, if all you care about is min-maxing your own character, then you would only care about the straight upgrades.

Agreed on the last point but I don't think the bomb loss is much of a problem either you're just playing more of a buff utility character than this damage dealer which for the alchemist feels a bit more on the nose for most character ideas. Also the archetype just oozes style.

Grand Lodge

Derek Dalton wrote:
No I'm saying you should consider another class. Investigator sounds more your style. That's what I'm saying.

Why? The class doesn't make the character, the character makes the class. You basically telling him he's having fun the wrong way. If he doesn't like bombs, there are plethora of ways to build an alchemist without them. Not everyone builds characters around the most optimal mechanical choices available at all times.

Liberty's Edge

Milo v3 wrote:
Derek Dalton wrote:
No I'm saying you should consider another class. Investigator sounds more your style. That's what I'm saying.
Considering investigator can't do the concept I mentioned at all.... not really?

I agree with you that Vivisectionist is entirely valid, but you actually can pull this off pretty well with Investigator, IMO.

It's not actually any better than a Vivisectionist, mind you, but you can do it.


Derek Dalton wrote:
Bombs and mutagens are what make an Alchemist.

Not every alchemist is an insane gnome or goblin of destruction. My Elven alchemist Chirgeon is one of the few magical healers who can operate in Rahadoum.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

I agree with you that Vivisectionist is entirely valid, but you actually can pull this off pretty well with Investigator, IMO.

It's not actually any better than a Vivisectionist, mind you, but you can do it.

I'm sincerely wondering how since it cannot do any of the biology stuff that alchemists can do beyond extracts?

Scarab Sages

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Um... a vivisectionist/beastmorph alchemist is a FANTASTIC character. At 10th level, he can fly, has access to pounce, and likely several natural attacks with his mutagen. This, combined with the fact that he can turn himself invisible AND give himself other, long-lasting offensive buffs means that the vivisectionist is actually kind of a better rogue than the base rogue. An argument could be made for the Unchained Rogue closing the gap a bit, but Stoneskin & Heroism seal the bloody deal. The ability to pounce and get lots of easy sneak attacks is just icing on the cake.

I LOVE the companion archetypes. While the Promethean Alchemist is probably the weakest of the bunch, it's a simple-to-track companion that gets its own, unique construct scaling, becomes medium sized, has simple weapon proficiency, and otherwise acts like an upgraded version of an animal companion with humanoid proportions (i.e., lots of magical item slots). If you ever wanted to play two characters at once, this is how you'd do it. The companion is a bit squishy, but it works.

Construct Rider is AWESOME. I love mounted characters, and the ability to throw a lance on your Alchemist and charge on a construct steed is just AWESOME. Plus, since you can give it extracts, you can give your mount the ability to fly, etc. Plus, it solves the problem of what to do when you get into melee, as you can give your mount a bomb-damage-based breath weapon (which looks freaking COOL). Overall, I think it's really solid, and I could totally see myself making a mounted alchemical charger.

But Homunculist? Man, this archetype takes the cake. You know why? You can add HD to your Homunculus. You don't even NEED gear once you've got your construct buddy with full Familiar bonuses AND bonus HD. Combine that with the unique ability to get 1-point evolutions for your Homunculus, and you're chucking bombs while your beastly buddy is wailing away on your foes. It's FANTASTIC.


That seemed to be what he was really interested in with the Alchemist was the Extracts. To me that is the weaker part of an Alchemist. Investigator seems more in tune with what he was describing what he wanted to do. I meant not disrespect.
I have played a healer Alchemist and I never said all Alchemists were insane bomb wielding maniacs. They are just more fun that way. Played a Hobgoblin Alchemist and he was the most fun I've had with a character in a while.


Investigator can do Mutagens, but not feral or greater mutagens (unless your GM house-rules it). With the right talents and build, an investigator can be very effective in combat, but it's not a beast like a combat-focused alchemist.


Derek Dalton wrote:

That seemed to be what he was really interested in with the Alchemist was the Extracts. To me that is the weaker part of an Alchemist. Investigator seems more in tune with what he was describing what he wanted to do. I meant not disrespect.

I have played a healer Alchemist and I never said all Alchemists were insane bomb wielding maniacs. They are just more fun that way. Played a Hobgoblin Alchemist and he was the most fun I've had with a character in a while.

Nah, I like things like tumour familiars, vestigal limbs, the healing abilities, bottled oozes, the persevationist's summoned monsters, making science zombies and science simulacrums. Biological stuff.


The discoveries are impressive. I had my Hobgoblin Alchemist working to be undead like with them. But admittedly the Bombs is what he was all about.

Liberty's Edge

Milo v3 wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

I agree with you that Vivisectionist is entirely valid, but you actually can pull this off pretty well with Investigator, IMO.

It's not actually any better than a Vivisectionist, mind you, but you can do it.

I'm sincerely wondering how since it cannot do any of the biology stuff that alchemists can do beyond extracts?

The biologist Investigator is vastly less mad-science-y and more actual science-y than the Alchemist version, but Master Craftsman + Craft Wondrous Item, all Infusions, and Mutagen are still there to allow for something in the vein of a doctor/biologist.

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Investigator can do Mutagens, but not feral or greater mutagens (unless your GM house-rules it). With the right talents and build, an investigator can be very effective in combat, but it's not a beast like a combat-focused alchemist.

Eh...half level to hit and damage on top of Extracts and Mutagen make for a really combat effective build. They're not gonna be pouncing much, but that aside I think they're on par.

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