I'm building a PFS character for a friend, and the constraints are that at level 1, he must be able to punch people twice on his turn. I'm making a Str-based Unchained Monk, and I mean...sure, he's pretty good at punching people, but he would be even better if he picked up a weapon. Just a cheap weapon that he's already proficient with, no particular feat or trait or stat investment, just pick up the 50% more damage that's lying at your feet.
Why would Punchy McLowlevel use his fists over a weapon?
cause they are fists and not manufactured weapons. that's about it.
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Potions of Blessed Fist, Quain Martial Artist Trait, Style Feats, Belier's Bite.
Is this flame-bait for role playing versus roll-playing? Cause it sure seems like it. In my experience, a lot of people play monks because they like the flavor of somebody that destroys people with their fists/feet, not because they are doing the most damage.
Potions of Blessed Fist, Quain Martial Artist Trait, Style Feats, Belier's Bite.
Hmm, Belier's Bite seems a bit unbalanced. All you need is IUS, which Monks get for free, then you add 1d4 bleed damage to every unarmed strike.
Pummeling Style and Charge are pretty good reasons for punching.
Potions of Blessed Fist, Quain Martial Artist Trait, Style Feats, Belier's Bite.Hmm, Belier's Bite seems a bit unbalanced. All you need is IUS, which Monks get for free, then you add 1d4 bleed damage to every unarmed strike.
Be aware that bleed damage doesn't stack - only the highest one applies. So you'd be reapplying until you get to 4 rather than piling up bigger and bigger bleed numbers. Still pretty good but less overwhelming.
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Potions of Blessed Fist, Quain Martial Artist Trait, Style Feats, Belier's Bite.Hmm, Belier's Bite seems a bit unbalanced. All you need is IUS, which Monks get for free, then you add 1d4 bleed damage to every unarmed strike.
It's strong, but bleed is limited. It doesn't add any damage on your turn, it's only 1d4 damage on the target's turn, and it doesn't stack with anything. It's not much worse than using Splintering Weapon with obsidian shuriken.
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Potions of Blessed Fist, Quain Martial Artist Trait, Style Feats, Belier's Bite.
Those are a bunch of good reasons to use unarmed strikes at higher levels, when you can afford oils, and have multiple feat slots. Even the trait bonus to damage isn't nearly enough to make up for the extra damage of 2 handing a weapon. Plus, if you use a reach weapon, you threaten everything within 10 feet, because you can always kick at squares next to you.
Mind you, the kind of damage an unchained monk can do at 1st level is kind of overkill. If you want to just punch things, you'll be doing just fine.
I'm curious what this weapon is that's doing 50% more damage. A fist does 3.5 + STR mod at 1st level on average. Assuming a STR build, 6.5 or 7.5 damage on average ... so getting that extra 50% means grabbing something that does about 3 or 4 more damage. At this point you're thinking of the three-section staff? (I forget PF's name for it ... d10 2-hander, martial, monk, other stuff.)
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I'm curious what this weapon is that's doing 50% more damage. A fist does 3.5 + STR mod at 1st level on average. Assuming a STR build, 6.5 or 7.5 damage on average ... so getting that extra 50% means grabbing something that does about 3 or 4 more damage. At this point you're thinking of the three-section staff? (I forget PF's name for it ... d10 2-hander, martial, monk, other stuff.)
Pretty much. With 18 STR it's 7.5 unarmed vs. 11.5 with the staff. That's a 53% increase.
If you include the better crit, it's 7.875 vs 12.65, it's a 61% increase.
Because you are holding a reach weapon and they are to close?..err is kicking people ok?
That rarely happens, and if it does, I can still attack while holding the weapon (or attack if it's the double-chained kama), and in the meantime I've been enjoying the benefits of using it as a two-handed weapon, not to mention all the bonus attacks from reach.
Also, Stunning Fist, as well as the ability to pick between lethal and nonlethal damage on the fly with no penalty.
Stunning Fist is 1/day, and carrying a temple sword or three-section-staff in no way diminishes my ability to do Stunning Fist or non-lethal attacks when I want to; it just increases my damage output by 50% at negligible cost.
Potions of Blessed Fist, Quain Martial Artist Trait, Style Feats, Belier's Bite.
Blessed Fist is nice, but unless something has DR, it's identical to Magic Weapon. Quain Marital Artist is a nice half-feat that narrows the damage gap slightly - provided I can spare the trait and can't find the equivalent for a weapon. Belier's Bite, same story.
Style Feats, yes, I expected those to be the answer. He can qualify for Crane, Cudgeler, Grabbing, Panther, Pummeling, and Snapping Turtle Style. Of these, Crane works fine with weapons, Cudgeler and Grabbing works *better* with weapons, Snapping Turtle works fine with weapons and is bad. Panther Style on its own is terrible.
That leaves Jabbing and Pummeling styles. Take the Str 18 Monk. Let's give him Belier's Bite and Quain Martial Artist and assume he always hits, never crits - assumptions favoring unarmed.
For Pummeling Style, that's 1d6+5+1d6+5+1d4 (beliers bite) - DR, or 19.5-DR. With a simple Sansetukon, that's 22 damage vs. twice DR. The break-even point, with all assumptions in favor of unarmed strikes, is at DR 2½ as the average for all enemies. Adding Power Attack, and still spending 2½ feats on unarmed strikes but nothing but petty cash on armed, it's 23.5 vs. 28.
For Jabbing Style, same assumptions, it's 23 damage vs. 22; but that's with a total of 2 feats and one trait invested specifically in unarmed strikes, and just adding in the better threat range makes armed combat better again. If only one attack per turn hits (no crits), it's 11 vs. 13.5. Or we could add Power Attack, see who it favors.
All of this, remember, with 2½ feat invested in unarmed strikes, and favorable assumptions, vs. nothing invested in armed strikes.
I'm curious what this weapon is that's doing 50% more damage. A fist does 3.5 + STR mod at 1st level on average. Assuming a STR build, 6.5 or 7.5 damage on average ... so getting that extra 50% means grabbing something that does about 3 or 4 more damage. At this point you're thinking of the three-section staff? (I forget PF's name for it ... d10 2-hander, martial, monk, other stuff.)Pretty much. With 18 STR it's 7.5 unarmed vs. 11.5 with the staff. That's a 53% increase.
If you include the better crit, it's 7.875 vs 12.65, it's a 61% increase.
Sounds right. Thought about getting one of these as a backup for my barbarian for those times when bludgeoning is needed.
But to answer the question earlier? 'Because it's fun' is always a valid answer, and I don't think it'd cripple the character.
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Potions of Blessed Fist, Quain Martial Artist Trait, Style Feats, Belier's Bite.Those are a bunch of good reasons to use unarmed strikes at higher levels, when you can afford oils, and have multiple feat slots. Even the trait bonus to damage isn't nearly enough to make up for the extra damage of 2 handing a weapon. Plus, if you use a reach weapon, you threaten everything within 10 feet, because you can always kick at squares next to you.
Mind you, the kind of damage an unchained monk can do at 1st level is kind of overkill. If you want to just punch things, you'll be doing just fine.
Belier's Bite is only one feat, and at first level, makes unarmed strike a one hit, one kill weapon. Almost nothing can deal with bleed at first level, you just need to withdraw until they die once you hit them.
Personally, I like being able to have my character beat up enemies while playing the flute.
Is this flame-bait for role playing versus roll-playing? Cause it sure seems like it. In my experience, a lot of people play monks because they like the flavor of somebody that destroys people with their fists/feet, not because they are doing the most damage.
I have plenty of room for different choices, but when a striker can literally be 50% better with zero downside at zero real cost, that's too big a gap.
Mind you, the kind of damage an unchained monk can do at 1st level is kind of overkill. If you want to just punch things, you'll be doing just fine.
...point taken, that should settle me down.
Simply because "I can be Bruce Lee, Gordon Liu, Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Cheng Pei-pei, Judy Lee, Pearl Cheung Ling, etc." is part and parcel to the fantasy that makes people want to play monks in the first place, and "doing the thing that maximizes damage" is not part and parcel to the concept.
There will always be people who will consciously choose to use a sub-optimal weapon because that's how they imagine their character fighting. It's not like a monk who focuses on unarmed strikes is harder to get rolling than an archer who uses a crossbow or a sling instead of the vastly mechanically superior longbow.
Also Belier's Bite is amazing for a feat you can take at level 1, and Outslug style is kind of awesome.
Jabbing Style > Pummeling Style, but both use unarmed!
If you ever want to be a puncher, instead of a staff guy, for whatever reason, you might have already invested feats or other things that make your punch more favorable. For example, you might have weapon focus: unarmed strike or the heavy hitter trait. These things would make unarmed more attractive, and possibly superior, right from first level.
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You do it... just for kicks. XD
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Simply because "I can be Bruce Lee, Gordon Liu, Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Cheng Pei-pei, Judy Lee, Pearl Cheung Ling, etc." is part and parcel to the fantasy that makes people want to play monks in the first place, and "doing the thing that maximizes damage" is not part and parcel to the concept.
There will always be people who will consciously choose to use a sub-optimal weapon because that's how they imagine their character fighting. It's not like a monk who focuses on unarmed strikes is harder to get rolling than an archer who uses a crossbow or a sling instead of the vastly mechanically superior longbow.
Also Belier's Bite is amazing for a feat you can take at level 1, and Outslug style is kind of awesome.
Is it too much to ask for a class that practically begs you to use unarmed strikes to actually be better with them than manufactured weapons? I think we should rightfully criticize trap options for what they are. At least an unarmed monk is only suboptimal rather than outright non-viable like crossbows were before the Bolt Ace.
Double chained Kamas man. Perfect low level monk weapons.
I think it's pretty difficult to argue that at higher levels, when they reach "legendary hero" status, Monks aren't better off with unarmed strikes.
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Is it too much to ask for a class that practically begs you to use unarmed strikes to actually be better with them than manufactured weapons?Yes. Unarmed combat systems in the real world developed either as teaching forms for armed combat or as last resorts.
The Kama, Siangham, Nunchaku, and probably Sai were all weaponized in oriental martial arts that started with unarmed training (ie. monks in Pathfinder terms) because hitting someone with an agricultural implement or pointy stick is always better than punching them, no matter how puny seeming the agricultural implement or how trained the combatant.
If this was the real world, everyone would be using a polearm and a shield. Fantasy has the leeway to have a lot more variety than what a real world soldier would use. I don't see people saying Rogues should be discouraged from using daggers.
As noted, I think it's because of how monks transition from earthly to mystical.
You start off wanting to use a temple sword, then you pick up Style feats and your unarmed damage grows and by level 10 unarmed is the way to go.
As noted, I think it's because of how monks transition from earthly to mystical.
You start off wanting to use a temple sword, then you pick up Style feats and your unarmed damage grows and by level 10 unarmed is the way to go.
I think you're rationalizing.
Yes, early on a monk can certainly use another weapon and have the fists as a backup option - i.e if you have a temple sword and come across some skeletons - and get a point or two of damage. With Quain Martial Artist or the like your fists get 2-7 base damage which is similar to 1d8, but a sanketsukon will do a bit more. So at level 1, it is the better choice if you are expecting a fight-heavy game.
There are several bonuses to being unarmed when you are in certain social situations or surprised, however. There will be plenty of places that you will not be allowed into while carrying a weapon, for example, and being able to appear relatively harmless has its benefits. Usually, you do not go around having "highly skilled martial artist" written on your forehead (unless the damn gnome sorceress has been feeling bored again last night).
I'm curious what this weapon is that's doing 50% more damage. A fist does 3.5 + STR mod at 1st level on average. Assuming a STR build, 6.5 or 7.5 damage on average ... so getting that extra 50% means grabbing something that does about 3 or 4 more damage. At this point you're thinking of the three-section staff? (I forget PF's name for it ... d10 2-hander, martial, monk, other stuff.)Pretty much. With 18 STR it's 7.5 unarmed vs. 11.5 with the staff. That's a 53% increase.
Just to clarify anyone confused as I was, this damage calculation only applies for Unchained Monk, who can get the +50% Strength bonus for two-handing a weapon, unlike Core Monk (and thus any archetyped monk).
Worth noting that 16 STR is 6.5 vs. 9.5, 46%. Any static modifiers (such as bard song) reduce this percentage.
@Majuba: except for power attack's static bonus, which pushes the percentage closer to +50% again. (2H PA being more efficient than 1H)
Clearly all non-polearm weapons must be figments of my imagination. Along with the Roman Empire. And two handed polearms.
And rogues shouldn't want to use daggers. Daggers are for eating with or providing the coup de grace. No one should want to use a dagger against a non-helpless target unless they have no other choice. That's why rogues have shortsword and rapier proficiency.
Funny that you should mention the fellows who took over a good chunk of their known world with polearms (phalanx).
OTOH;
Early game, only real reason for fist fighting is flavor.
Don't get me wrong, unarmed is still viable, just not optimal.
I think the previous responses have that pretty welly covered.
Because it's really cool? Aside from style feats, yeah, at level one, a weapon is much better. Also at level one, being the strongest fighter on the battlefield is having 18 STR and a two handed weapon. Power attack is overkill at this point.
But by level 3, you get many options with style feats that make unarmed much more juicy. And by level 5, if you keep on the style feats, are using an unchained monk, thus using style strikes, and focused your feats more on unarmed, then unarmed starts to get a lot better. Granted, a weapon would still do more damage, but the utility and flavor offered by many style feats and unchained (Flying kick) typically close that gap.
Think of it this way, at level 1, most caster characters are using crossbows. Even if you are going to make a summon focused cleric or a transforming witch, your still just level 1.
Also, if using a core monk with archetypes, a maneuver master or underfoot adept with vicious stomp love unarmed strikes.
EDIT: tldr; If you're playing a monk, it's not to beast at level 1. Too many things take time to come online.
I also want to note that Ascetic Style's designer has said that he intended the first feat to only be Feral Combat Training for Monk weapons, the second one as is, and then the third one grant higher damage dice.
He never wanted the feats to grant, say, the bonus on brawling armor.
This is probably the reason why it's banned on PFS.
Take the absolom bouncer trait??
I also want to note that Ascetic Style's designer has said that he intended the first feat to only be Feral Combat Training for Monk weapons, the second one as is, and then the third one grant higher damage dice.
He never wanted the feats to grant, say, the bonus on brawling armor.
This is probably the reason why it's banned on PFS.
Fortunately, the RAW can reasonably be interpreted to match RAI.
I'm holding out for a PFS clarification so they unban it.
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I'm curious what this weapon is that's doing 50% more damage. A fist does 3.5 + STR mod at 1st level on average. Assuming a STR build, 6.5 or 7.5 damage on average ... so getting that extra 50% means grabbing something that does about 3 or 4 more damage. At this point you're thinking of the three-section staff? (I forget PF's name for it ... d10 2-hander, martial, monk, other stuff.)Pretty much. With 18 STR it's 7.5 unarmed vs. 11.5 with the staff. That's a 53% increase.Just to clarify anyone confused as I was, this damage calculation only applies for Unchained Monk, who can get the +50% Strength bonus for two-handing a weapon, unlike Core Monk (and thus any archetyped monk).
Worth noting that 16 STR is 6.5 vs. 9.5, 46%. Any static modifiers (such as bard song) reduce this percentage.
The thread title specifically calls out Umonks. And I specifically mentioned the 18 STR. (80-90% of the time a STR Umonk will start with an 18 STR.)
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Funny that you should mention the fellows who took over a good chunk of their known world with polearms (phalanx).Clearly all non-polearm weapons must be figments of my imagination. Along with the Roman Empire. And two handed polearms.
And rogues shouldn't want to use daggers. Daggers are for eating with or providing the coup de grace. No one should want to use a dagger against a non-helpless target unless they have no other choice. That's why rogues have shortsword and rapier proficiency.
What are you talking about? The Roman phalanx didn't use spears other than the pilum (for throwing). They were based around the gladius & scutum. It was the Greek & Macedonian phalanxes which used spears.
And frankly - both of those fighting styles kinda sucked in the skirmish style combats which D&D is based around.