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Yeah, we're done here. I'm going to "self-censor" and hide this thread. What needed to be said has been said, and so has a lot else besides.
I can see how your post might come off as such though, to be fair.
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I believe Ambrosia means that none of the mods have shown themselves here so we should assume they are not present at present.
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I don't recall sniping at Ashiel.
The Mods aren't here right now either, and careless words do nothing to keep the thread reasonable. The Mods are still humans too, doing a thankless job every day, so showing them the same respect as you'd show Ashiel only seems fair.
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The mods are asleep, guys. It's 3:00 am over here. Why am I still awake? Great question! I'm gonna give you 20% off a used car! In fact, everyone, check under your seats. YOU get 20% off a used car! YOU get 20% off a used car!
Well I would really hope that paizo moderators wouldn't ban people for getting a bit dramatic in a private email, but here we are.
The OP included some of the communication between paizo and Ashiel. The moderator gave the reason for the ban. It wasn't because Ashiel "got a bit dramatic". It was due to a perception of irreconcilable differences between what Ashiel wants from an online community and the kind of community paizo are willing to provide.
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The mods are asleep, guys. It's 3:00 am over here. Why am I still awake? Great question! I'm gonna give you 20% off a used car! In fact, everyone, check under your seats. YOU get 20% off a used car! YOU get 20% off a used car!
Huh. I expected something else.
I'm showing the mods the same respect the pro mod team is showing Ashiel. Though in other news another trans person concerned with Paizo's representation of trans issues was also banned following that thread without even an email exchange. The person in question was Raital Latral.
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Alex. This thread has been very respectful to both sides so far. Can we try keep it that way please?
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Well I would really hope that paizo moderators wouldn't ban people for getting a bit dramatic in a private email, but here we are.The OP included some of the communication between paizo and Ashiel. The moderator gave the reason for the ban. It wasn't because Ashiel "got a bit dramatic". It was due to a perception of irreconcilable differences between what Ashiel wants from an online community and the kind of community paizo are willing to provide.
That is what I got out of it also. Personally, I think certain political discussions are best held in other places even if they are related to the game. Not so much because I don't think they can be done here, but because you never know when your comment is going to vanish. I would hate to have a comment deleted if I had spent a long time writing it out, and yes it has happened before.
I don't know what that other place is because if the topic also involves Golarion and you go to a debate specific forum, and mention Golarion it is going to be strange for them(other non-RPG members).
This might be something a private FB group is for, for the times when we have to go into certain discussions.
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I'm showing the mods the same respect the pro mod team is showing Ashiel.Respectfully, your words do not.
Though in other news another trans person concerned with Paizo's representation of trans issues was also banned following that thread without even an email exchange. The person in question was Raital Latral.
Regardless of what the entire story is behind that, what positive change do you hope to accomplish by angrily arguing about it here in the wee hours (3:07 AM local Paizo time) when no one with any answers or facts in evidence is here? If you want a positive outcome, this isn't the means to accomplish it.
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Continuously telling someone who has a grievance to keep it quiet and only discuss it with the person causing the grievance is not in fact respectful. It is the very attitude that allows systemic abuse to take place. Unfortunately the examples I could site are serious enough that if I compare them to an argument in an RPG forum it would be disrespectful to the real life situations.
My intent was to partially defuse the situation, not inflame it. As I am not proving helpful here, I'll take my leave of the thread.
I am hoping customer service would carefully review this issue. Really, that's the only thing we could hope for at the moment.
Regardless of what the entire story is behind that, what positive change do you hope to accomplish by angrily arguing about it here in the wee hours (3:07 AM local Paizo time) when no one with any answers or facts in evidence is here? If you want a positive outcome, this isn't the means to accomplish it.
Like ideally? Shame Paizo into changing policy, because public shaming is one of the very few ways to get a company to change course after they've declined to do so through private channels.
Like if the moderation ended up more akin to Something Awful with very clear and public rules and punishments for breaking those rules this would all be a lot more palatable. So like if one of Ashiel's posts had big bold letters saying (USER WAS PROBATED FOR THIS POST) and then gave a little explanation as to why I'd find it a lot more acceptable. It would also help with getting rid of the for real bigots that hide behind nice language and technically following the rules. Even if it just meant that most of the people in the last "is slavery really evil" thread got publicly probated it would be a huge improvement. Instead of a transperson talking about trans representation just disappearing one day along with a large number of their posts.
In reality though? Mostly just venting about an unfair situation.
aw I just noticed ashiel Favorited one of my posts.
I was hoping to stay out of this topi but it keeps getting brought up.
Also generally this thread's creation will have a few outcomes
1. They review the banning of Ashiel and the account is reisntated. Respect is gained.
2. They Lock the thread. Belief in the Paizo Moderation team will drop.
3. The mods Respond in the thread and then maybe later lock it. Probably status quo based upon how they respond.
Generally all outcomes are favorable from Ashiel's position.
There is also 4. Delete the thread
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They were banned for many reasons, that built up over the years.
I don't think speculating about it will help matters.
Frankly, Ashiel had it coming.
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I don't know Ashiel, I admittedly don't recognize the name at all. I don't know what "four years" of trouble means, or whether it is founded or not.
But I do notice a significant inconsistency regarding pronouns used to reference Ashiel, enough that I am unsure which to use myself. From context, I can only assume that since the hot topic was regarding transgender exposure, that Ashiel themself might be. And as someone who is very much in favor of transgender rights and transgender respect, this worries me; often nothing can be more painful than being constantly referenced as a gender you not only do not identify as, but very often identify against.
I might be completely unfounded in this. Honestly, I hope I am. But I just wanted to get my words in.
Here is hoping the situation is resolved in a manner that does not cause me to lose faith in Paizo. And may there be justice and peaceful resolution for everybody involved.
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She was banned for using and encouraging a negative, and combative environment towards Paizo.
It had nothing to do with gender.
She was becoming a bully.
I personally found her to be arrogant, dismissive, and rude, with a complete unwillingness to compromise or look at things from a different perspective.
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She was banned for using and encouraging a negative, and combative environment towards Paizo.
It had nothing to do with gender.
She was becoming a bully.
I personally found her to be arrogant, dismissive, and rude, with a complete unwillingness to compromise or look at it from another angle.
> She was banned for using and encouraging a negative, and combative environment towards Paizo.
First of all, you are neither a mod nor quoting a mod, so you probably shouldn't make definite statements like this.
Secondly, if encouraging such an environment is an instant bannable offence, it should be mentioned in the damned community guidelines to prevent further incidents such as this.
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Secondly, if encouraging such an environment is an instant bannable offence, it should be mentioned in the damned community guidelines to prevent further incidents such as this.
Eh, the Community Guidelines don't mean much if they're selectively enforced.
The last post I had moderated away (without any kind of notification in the thread or otherwise) was calling out someone who compared certain styles of RPG campaigns to genocide. That comparison wasn't deleted, despite being a clear violation of the Community Guidelines, but my response to it was.
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Thing is, the situation (the discussion in the thread) had resolved itself, then some time later the removals happened. When that happens, it seems as though someone hit a "flag" and the posts were nuked from orbit without reading what actually had happened.
I agree that it's Paizo's forums, and they can do what they want. But to say that the moderation policy is consistent across the board is laughable.
Thing is, the situation (the discussion in the thread) had resolved itself, then some time later the removals happened. When that happens, it seems as though someone hit a "flag" and the posts were nuked from orbit without reading what actually had happened.
I agree that it's Paizo's forums, and they can do what they want. But to say that the moderation policy is consistent across the board is laughable.
Just based on a cursory reading of the email. It seems like that might be what happened someone read the discussion and was upset by it. They then flagged and possibly emailed Paizo about how it made them feel leading to its removal. Then when the post started showing back up in the website feedback thread via links, it set off the issues again.
I don't know Ashiel, I admittedly don't recognize the name at all. I don't know what "four years" of trouble means, or whether it is founded or not.
But I do notice a significant inconsistency regarding pronouns used to reference Ashiel, enough that I am unsure which to use myself. From context, I can only assume that since the hot topic was regarding transgender exposure, that Ashiel themself might be. And as someone who is very much in favor of transgender rights and transgender respect, this worries me; often nothing can be more painful than being constantly referenced as a gender you not only do not identify as, but very often identify against.
I might be completely unfounded in this. Honestly, I hope I am. But I just wanted to get my words in.
Here is hoping the situation is resolved in a manner that does not cause me to lose faith in Paizo. And may there be justice and peaceful resolution for everybody involved.
Ashiel is a "he". The confusion is due to the avatar of a female drow.
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Her profile picture is actually Seoni under some weird lightning. As for pronouns, she has repeatedly stated she doesn't care which ones people use. I prefer she since it fits the avatar image.
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Her profile picture is actually Seoni under some weird lightning. As for pronouns, she has repeatedly stated she doesn't care which ones people use. I prefer she since it fits the avatar image.
I did realize I was so inactive here that I didn't notice a avatar change.
Yeah some of you see me posting here back to back, but it's tame by comparison.
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She was banned for using and encouraging a negative, and combative environment towards Paizo.
It had nothing to do with gender.
She was becoming a bully.
I personally found her to be arrogant, dismissive, and rude, with a complete unwillingness to compromise or look at things from a different perspective.
While these may have contributed to the leadup to the ban (and I share your feelings on Ashiel's attitude), it seems like the event itself was something more complex.
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To add to that, quality and quantity of content provided does not exempt a user from moderation. Over where I moderate, we had to remove a few problematic users that were among the most knowledgeable and skilled players, due to frequent and excessive negativity and hostility toward newer players.
I'm showing the mods the same respect the pro mod team is showing Ashiel.Respectfully, your words do not.Though in other news another trans person concerned with Paizo's representation of trans issues was also banned following that thread without even an email exchange. The person in question was Raital Latral.Regardless of what the entire story is behind that, what positive change do you hope to accomplish by angrily arguing about it here in the wee hours (3:07 AM local Paizo time) when no one with any answers or facts in evidence is here? If you want a positive outcome, this isn't the means to accomplish it.
Forums are asynchronous by nature. No consideration need be given to the work/sleep cycle of forum participants. And that's a feature, not a flaw.
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I'll say this: the mod tone here has grown stricter over the years (I've been here almost 10 years).
That said, I've noticed since the HumbleBundle thing a few months ago that Paizo is more willing to hand out perma-bans than they have been in the past. (I'm not implying the Bundle had anything to with it, only that they are loosely time-correlated events from my POV).
I've seen several long-time posters who've been banned because they had a history of fighting with other community members, getting modded, and the occasional temp-ban. I'm unaware of Ashiel's history with the mods, but if Chris's email is accurate (and I have no reason to believe it isnt), then it fits the trend I've noticed.
The point is, if you have a history of fighting with others here and butting heads with the mods about it, they're going to decide you're more trouble than you're worth at some point.
All the best to Ashiel.
-Skeld
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2 cp.
In my experience Paizo ask that any discussion of moderation decisions be made by email. Not doing so is seen as ignoring a reasonable request, and can result in thread lock or deletion without explanation. My perusal of this issue indicates a lot of "started a thread to seek answers". Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how it reads to me.
I'll miss Ashiel. I found him arrogant, argumentative, and far too sure of himself to be someone I'd call a friend, and a little too fond of assuming his opinions were fact, but he knows this game very well, and always had useful insights, even if I didn't like large chunks of what he said, and I feel that the collective community we have here is diminished in his absence.
So, I'm not going to give an opinion on whether the ban is "justified" or not, it's not my place to give it.
See you around, Ash, take care.
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I'll say this: the mod tone here has grown stricter over the years (I've been here almost 10 years).
That said, I've noticed since the HumbleBundle thing a few months ago that Paizo is more willing to hand out perma-bans than they have been in the past. (I'm not implying the Bundle had anything to with it, only that they are loosely time-correlated events from my POV).
I've seen several long-time posters who've been banned because they had a history of fighting with other community members, getting modded, and the occasional temp-ban. I'm unaware of Ashiel's history with the mods, but if Chris's email is accurate (and I have no reason to believe it isnt), then it fits the trend I've noticed.
The point is, if you have a history of fighting with others here and butting heads with the mods about it, they're going to decide you're more trouble than you're worth at some point.
All the best to Ashiel.
-Skeld
I largely agree with this. I don't know the precise numbers (obviously) but from my personal estimation over the last 8 years; the forum community has doubled at least a few times. The larger community has different needs and likewise needs to be managed/moderated differently. This means that mods (who have other jobs) have less time to examine or find a root cause and will need to more frequently use a cleaver (no pun) rather than a scalpel. Several forumites with a few thousand posts are more will probably read this as "more aggressive" or some such. And it probably is, but it is only nessesary for a community of this size.
It's perhaps worth noting that this thread disappeared while I was reading it, somewhere between page 1 and 2, though it's back now.
I'm on record supporting mods, but when there's a glitch in the matrix, one tends to suspect the presence of Agents. That somebody is in thread-locking, actually thread-hiding, mode suggests that there's heat on both sides of the issue.
Maybe Ashiel can be banned, and that solves one side, for some value of 'solve'. But if there was a problem on the other side, that too needs examination.
I neither request nor expect transparency in the decisions and operation of a corporate house organ. I hope simple faith in the people involved will be well-founded.
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2 cp.
In my experience Paizo ask that any discussion of moderation decisions be made by email. Not doing so is seen as ignoring a reasonable request, and can result in thread lock or deletion without explanation. My perusal of this issue indicates a lot of "started a thread to seek answers". Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how it reads to me.
I'll miss Ashiel. I found him arrogant, argumentative, and far too sure of himself to be someone I'd call a friend, and a little too fond of assuming his opinions were fact, but he knows this game very well, and always had useful insights, even if I didn't like large chunks of what he said, and I feel that the collective community we have here is diminished in his absence.
So, I'm not going to give an opinion on whether the ban is "justified" or not, it's not my place to give it.
See you around, Ash, take care.
There has been a push here lately to call out the moderators in a public venue as some people believe that sending an email is simply having the mods quality check themselves. Thus they believe that the email is simply a way to make everything look shiny by deleting post and then keeping any dissension private. So more and more posters are taking to creating post or threads calling out the practice and trying to shine a light, so to speak, on a perceived corruption.
Most companies, Paizo included, participate in a real life version of The Grand Game. This is just another bar in the composition. The dance continues.
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It's perhaps worth noting that this thread disappeared while I was reading it, somewhere between page 1 and 2, though it's back now.
I'm on record supporting mods, but when there's a glitch in the matrix, one tends to suspect the presence of Agents. That somebody is in thread-locking, actually thread-hiding, mode suggests that there's heat on both sides of the issue.
Maybe Ashiel can be banned, and that solves one side, for some value of 'solve'. But if there was a problem on the other side, that too needs examination.
I neither request nor expect transparency in the decisions and operation of a corporate house organ. I hope simple faith in the people involved will be well-founded.
The thread never disappeared. It was moved to a different forum. I have been awake and checking since it started. That is not to say that it won't disappear.
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It is sad when people are banned; that said, it is sad when people argue on the forums as well.
There are some topics that do not lend themselves to forums as tone, intent, and so on are absent from the cold text. These topics tend to get closed down and/or have posts removed when things get heated. It happens, you move on and hopefully do so with less grar.
I don't think anyone is owed an explanation of why a post or posts were removed. It is certainly nice if the mods mention "We removed X posts because people need to settle down. Also, calling people BLAH isn't cool. Stop it."
But really, we're all big people here who should know after any number of days/months/years on the Internet and the forums in particular when a comment is going to cause an issue. It isn't just an issue with mods. Some -- or let's be serious, a lot -- of the blame can be placed directly at the feet of the posters. I know I've done it in the past, when I've gotten heated and posted in a flurry of righteous anger or desire to be RIGHT.
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We just need a thread where Kobold Cleaver and I can fight about s&+&, like Peter Griffin and the giant chicken. :-)
Someone throw out a topic and we can fight over it, without any emotional investment at all. :-)
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Its a company website and forums. What is said by us reflects on the company and the community as a whole. As Paizo are paying for the servers and the moderators to keep the forums safe, I think we have to give them a pretty wide leeway in deciding what they want to display to the world.
We don't "give them leeway". Paizo is a business, first and last, and they will moderate their forums in a manner that best ensures they keep the greatest number of customers. If that means perma-banning people they consider disruptive, they won't hesitate after giving that first warning.
Thing is, the situation (the discussion in the thread) had resolved itself, then some time later the removals happened. When that happens, it seems as though someone hit a "flag" and the posts were nuked from orbit without reading what actually had happened.
I agree that it's Paizo's forums, and they can do what they want. But to say that the moderation policy is consistent across the board is laughable.
It's consistent in that it serves Paizo's interests. People who get fed up or leave the boards may take away buisness, so it makes cold logical sense to ban one person who upsets many, rather than have the many leave on their own.
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We just need a thread where Kobold Cleaver and I can fight about s@*+, like Peter Griffin and the giant chicken. :-)
Someone throw out a topic and we can fight over it, without any emotional investment at all. :-)
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Shouldn't have said that... :-)
Or me. I criticize Paizo pretty directly and without much, if any, reservation. Granted, I've never done the rant email thing, though.