Witchwarper Clarifications and Questions


Witchwarper

Scarab Sages Starfinder Design Lead

If you want clarifications or have questions specially regarding the witchwarper, put them here!


1. Which warper?

2. So from my player who is making one; Inhibit basically just is enforcing move/standard/swift, correct? So the only things prevented are full-attacks and double-moves? Finally, you say it can at level 8 cast Slow, as the spell...meaning multi-target, Fortitude, etc? My player was excited about having the option to slow vs. Will or Fortitude with this paradigm shift and the spell, but I think it just means you get to cast Slow, as in the spell, with all its effects.

Scarab Sages Starfinder Design Lead

Commodore_RB wrote:
2. So from my player who is making one; Inhibit basically just is enforcing move/standard/swift, correct? So the only things prevented are full-attacks and double-moves?

Correct.

Commodore_RB wrote:
Finally, you say it can at level 8 cast Slow, as the spell...meaning multi-target, Fortitude, etc? My player was excited about having the option to slow vs. Will or Fortitude with this paradigm shift and the spell, but I think it just means you get to cast Slow, as in the spell, with all its effects.

Yep, just like the spell.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Does the Consuming Narrative (Su) paradigm shift really not grant a save, or does the fact that it's mind affecting imply Will save?

(I'm a little concerned that any 'single big boss' fight is going to be trivialized by the ability of the Witchwarper to lock them out while the party positions and prepares itself)

Scarab Sages Starfinder Design Lead

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Cellion wrote:

Does the Consuming Narrative (Su) paradigm shift really not grant a save, or does the fact that it's mind affecting imply Will save?

(I'm a little concerned that any 'single big boss' fight is going to be trivialized by the ability of the Witchwarper to lock them out while the party positions and prepares itself)

As written, no save. The mind-affecting descriptor is about what things are immune to it.

It may well be too good. This is the version we wanted to playtest.


Disrupt Attack (Su)
As a reaction when you or an ally is targeted with an attack
originating within 100 feet, you can impose a –2 penalty on the
attack roll. If the attack is coming from a creature, that creature can
attempt a Will saving throw to negate this effect. Once an attacker
has been affected by this paradigm shift, it can’t be affected by it
again for 24 hours. At 8th level, the penalty changes to –3, and at
14th level, the penalty changes to –4.

Two questions,
1) Is the save only for natural attacks/unarmed strikes or all attacks, even those from a weapon?
2) If it is the later, why mentioned creature, items/traps that make attack roles generally do not give saves, especially Will saves. This is a case of redundancy.

PS, thanks Owen KC Stephens for taking the time to address questions and concerns.

Scarab Sages Starfinder Design Lead

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It works against all attacks.
If we made it have a Will save against any attacker, we'd have to give it (object), and then objects would get a save under some circumstances, and then we'd have to say they didn't get that save.
But that's a wording issue, which we can look at based on playtest feedback. The intent is that it works against any attack, and attacks originating with creatures can bypass this with a Will save.
Honestly we might just give it the mind-affecting descriptor in the next iteration.


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

It works against all attacks.

If we made it have a Will save against any attacker, we'd have to give it (object), and then objects would get a save under some circumstances, and then we'd have to say they didn't get that save.
But that's a wording issue, which we can look at based on playtest feedback. The intent is that it works against any attack, and attacks originating with creatures can bypass this with a Will save.
Honestly we might just give it the mind-affecting descriptor in the next iteration.

Giving it the mind-affecting descriptor would solve the issue. Otherwise as you said you get weird cases like mindless undead making Will Saves (and not against positive energy) or mindless constructs, who normally don't ever make Will Saves because they are immune to most things that need Will saves. Knowing these things, that was why I was so confused, calling out creatures felt redundant, because items/object don't make Will Saves normally and honestly rarely make Ref or Fort Saves, outside rare cases. But, this might be bleed over from 3.5/Pathfinder rules as well. Again, thanks for the clarification.

Overall, I like the classes and was happy to hear Witcherwarper, honestly like Warpwitch better, they will be getting a more unique spell list.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Making it mind-affecting would make the wording of the ability slightly less confusing, but would also make the ability itself significantly weaker. Low level witchwarpers don't feel like they need to be significantly weaker, right now.

I may be missing something, but the solution feels extreme and, to me, makes the ability feel more like a mystic-flavored trick than a warper-flavored trick.


It is already a weak ability, between only using it once per target per 24hrs, they get a save for no effect. Honestly, I think I would rather see the penalty cut in half and there be no save but keep the once per 24hrs rider. The save is what makes it totally not a useful ability, they have other things that are cool that don't have, sucky complete overriding saves. The self buff Overlapping Forms, Surefooted, Push Grenade, and any of the three reduce damage abilities from level 2, even with the resolve cost are stronger. Hell clever uses of Shift Resistance (on allies) or Shifting Steps (again allies) creates plenty of tatical opportunities to help control the flow of battle, but different than how other classes do the same.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If a witchwarper uses infinite worlds to change the environmental condition within the radius (let's say gravity and atmosphere), and on the next turn, another spellcaster casts Control Atmosphere/Gravity in a radius that overlaps with mine, what happens?

Scarab Sages Starfinder Design Lead

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Big Lemon wrote:
If a witchwarper uses infinite worlds to change the environmental condition within the radius (let's say gravity and atmosphere), and on the next turn, another spellcaster casts Control Atmosphere/Gravity in a radius that overlaps with mine, what happens?

The spell changes the conditions within its area as defined by the spell.

Basically you painted it red, then someone else came along and painted it blue.

You could use another infinite worlds to change it again.


Jack Rift wrote:
Honestly, I think I would rather see the penalty cut in half and there be no save but keep the once per 24hrs rider.

I completely agree, but for a different reason. This ability is extremely easy to use, each and every turn. It interrupts an action, and asks for a save, greatly slowing the pace of the game. And I can't imagine if you have two Witchwarpers using it in the party. For me, asking for a save is a bad idea.

I would far prefer it to add just 1 AC without a save. And, if I may make a suggestion, stating that, at higher level, your reaction is not consumed if the enemy hits (as this Shift badly ages the more better reactions you get).

Scarab Sages

So the Overlapping forms paradigm shift (p. 22) doesn't have a duration listed, though it does mention a standard action to start it up. Does it just go on UNTIL you give it to someone else? What kind of action is it to pull it off someone and put it back on yourself? Are you always blurry or does it not function while you are asleep? Can you willingly turn it off? Always having multiple overlaping versions of yourself visible seems like a good way to give all your friends around you a headache.

Also, as a side note, I don't think Inhibit should be mind effecting, but SHOULD require the target have an intelligence score (not a - in other words). I mean, A vampire's mind does't use biology anymore, but it is still going to think twice when it sees itself get staked 27 times in a fraction of a second if it does what it plans on doing. Zombie and a pre-programed robot wouldn't care, but an SRO and a necrovite would.

Also, but the combination of the will save AND only once/creature/24 hrs. make this a little weak. But essentially nauseating a creature for a round is really good . . . I dunno.


Look at the class feature description. If no duration is listed, a paradigm shift lasts rounds per level.


When using the Thwart Ability paradigm shift on an ability that does not usually allow a save, then what type of save is granted? A DC is listed, but not the save type.


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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Char Ops Playtest wrote:

Lessen Injury (Su)

As a reaction when you or an ally within 100 feet of you takes
damage, you can spend 1 RP to change the amount of damage dealt
to the lowest possible value. [...]

How does this work with area effects?

The particular case that came up was a trap that did 3d6 electricity damage in an area that happened to include all 4 PCs.

I thought it was clear that Lessen Injury could be used against this effect ("you or an ally ... takes damage"), but was less clear on whether the witchwarper needed to choose a single target or single source of damage to effect.

Since I only roll damage once for these types of effects (don't know if that's RAW or not!), after consideration I ruled that the paradigm shift would apply to the effect and lessen its damage for everyone.

Grateful for feedback & maybe worth clarification in the final? If this works, it's a great ability against area effects!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

If I use shifting surge on a weapon that deals two different kinds of energy damage, does the spell affect just one type or both? And if it does affect both, can it change both types to different new types, or do they become the same new type? (My playtest witchwarper is armed with a cavitation pistol.)


The "Bend Terrain" Paradigm Shift says: "When you use your infinite worlds class feature, you can target a 10-foot-radius area within the effect and bend its shape on a whim." Is this actually letting you alter the shape of the terrain, or is it just flavor for why things in the area are falling over and taking damage?


Elro the Onk wrote:
Char Ops Playtest wrote:

Lessen Injury (Su)

As a reaction when you or an ally within 100 feet of you takes
damage, you can spend 1 RP to change the amount of damage dealt
to the lowest possible value. [...]

How does this work with area effects?

The particular case that came up was a trap that did 3d6 electricity damage in an area that happened to include all 4 PCs.

I thought it was clear that Lessen Injury could be used against this effect ("you or an ally ... takes damage"), but was less clear on whether the witchwarper needed to choose a single target or single source of damage to effect.

Since I only roll damage once for these types of effects (don't know if that's RAW or not!), after consideration I ruled that the paradigm shift would apply to the effect and lessen its damage for everyone.

Grateful for feedback & maybe worth clarification in the final? If this works, it's a great ability against area effects!

This is the same way we've been running it at our table, but it's consistently instigated a 5-10 minute rules debates on how it's supposed to work - any chance
Paizo Employee Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
the class, right?

Any chance he has a spare moment to chime in and clarify it? I haven't found anything else on a specific ruling, and it'll be October before we see any official publication of the class, and any revision of the text. Appreciate it!

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