Witchwarper vs. Mystic & Technomancer


Witchwarper


Mystic
Connection power 1st, 3rd + every 3 levels (total 7)
- connection powers are fixed (no customization after selection of connection or mix/matching)
Healing Touch 1/day
Connection channel: +1-7 to two fixed skills
Mindlink at 2nd: 1/day/target
Telepathic Bond at 11th: at will
Transcendence at 19th
Enlightenment at 20th
Empty levels: 0

Technomancer
Magic Hack at 2nd + every 3 levels (total 7)
- magic hacks are selected from a list (allows mix/matching)
Spell cache: +1 spell per day (effectively a 1/day ability)
Techlore at 3rd: +1-6 to two fixed skills
Cache Capacitor at 6th, 12th, and 18th: 24 hour extend duration on select list of spells
Resolve Attunement at 19th
Fuse Spells at 20th
Empty levels: 5

Witchwarper
Gains grenade proficiency (neither mystic nor technomancer do)
Infinite Worlds at 1st, 4th + every 3 (total 8/day): debuff/terrain manipulation
Paradigm Shift at 2nd + every 3 (total 7)
- paradigm shifts are selected from a list (allows mix/matching)
Compound Sight at 3rd: +1-6 to one selected skill
- at 9th you get 1) to select a second skill and 2) can change these skills to tailor to your build every level
Alternate Outcome at 6th, 12th, and 18th: 1-3/day reroll a d20
Unfold Existences at 19th
Reality Stutter at 20th
Empty levels: 0

The Witchwarper gains over the technomancer in grenade proficiency, a 1-8/day increasingly powerful debuff in infinite worlds, compound sight is customizable. You could argue that the technomancer's cache capacitor is better than the witchwarper's alternate outcome depending on your play style.

It looks like a better "mage" than the technomancer.

The Witchwarper gains over the mystic in grenade proficiency, a 1-8/day increasingly powerful debuff in infinite worlds vs. a 1/day 10 minute casting time heal in healing touch, mix/match selectable powers in paradigm shift vs. the fixed list of the mystic, compound sight is customizable, and it gains alternate outcome, a 1-3/day reroll. I don't feel that an at will communication ability (telepathic bond) that can be replicated by the comm unit in every armor set doesn't really count as an ability for the mystic.

While the Witchwarper cannot do the "job" of a Healing connection mystic, it possesses more utility and customizable power than the Mystic.

This power creep is what immediately concerned me when I heard about the playtest.

I think the abilities could be toned down by scaling back the times per day of infinite worlds significantly and maybe shave off 1 or 2 paradigm shifts.


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I overall agree that the Witchwarper class abilities are much stronger. I also prefer the spell list quite a bit.

But Charisma as a caster stat really punishes them in skills, and Reflex as their only good save is atrocious. So perhaps that balances them out. Alternate Worlds rerolls make up for this in part, but that makes your class feature tied up in compensating for a weak class chassis.

Grenade proficiency isn't much of a big deal because of the cost involved. That 16th level grenade ability on Infinite Worlds is hooo boy though.

Blake's Tiger wrote:

You could argue that the technomancer's cache capacitor is better than the witchwarper's alternate outcome depending on your play style.

I find it hard to play, but easy to argue while wearing a tin foil hat and straight jacket as part of my personal style. (Cache capacitor is baaaad before the 18th level options.)


I don't think skill points or saves balance any active power, especially not infinite worlds (plus the witchwarper gets 6 vs. technomancer's 4).

Infinite worlds is essentially a 1-8 times per day extra, increasinly powerful debuff spell.

When a class makes you ask, "Why would I play technomacer and not this," you've stolen technomancer's ball.

The spell list is a compilation of the better spells from technomancer. Consider removing all the direct damage spells from the witchwarper. At least that leaves the technomancer with a niche.


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Blake's Tiger wrote:
I don't think skill points or saves balance any active power, especially not infinite worlds (plus the witchwarper gets 6 vs. technomancer's 4).

They both get 4+Int skills. The Technomancer's class skills are very useful, the Witchwarper's are not. Some knowledge, face skills, and acrobatics. Zero tech, no life science for creature identification. And Int is definitely going to be a dump stat unless you go for a weird build. With weak fort and wis saves, you're going to be pretty MAD if you try to fix those, so Int is definitely a dump stat.

I definitely think better saves balance other class power. Yikes if the Soldier/Operative only had one good save.

Blake's Tiger wrote:


Infinite worlds is essentially a 1-8 times per day extra, increasinly powerful debuff spell.

Is even that good? Convince me.

1st level: Difficult terrain, tiny radius. Ok, you slowed down some melee guys in a world of ranged combat. Congrats? Your duration is initially garbage, but that gets better almost immediately.

4th level: Permanent environmental hazards are...not common. Cool if you fight some fire elementals bathing in lava, I guess, but not a power move.

7th level: Ok, this is something. I can raise you up on a pillar in the air (forcing you to climb down or take minimal falling damage if you want to move away) or lower you into a pit (granting everyone on both sides total cover against ranged attacks) and delaying you slightly as you climb out. I can work with this! Is it overpowered? Not sure, but certainly more useful than similar abilities other classes get.

10th level: I need to check my environmental effects, but against armored opponents light radiation is usually going to do nothing, against others it won't do much, and I can't remember if a one shift in gravity is worth much. I know it's not worth what the 6th level Control Gravity spell gives at the cost of a save, so hmmm. The wind and cold/hot are surely not useful.

13th: Ok, no atmosphere is a problem for animals I'm fighting on a planet. Am I doing that a lot at 13th level? Still, it's something the other classes can't do.

16th: Hoo, boy. The grenade thing is crazy. Full save DC, even with the lower level effect. Entangle, burn, or just some free damage. Yes, this can get ugly. 30'? 7 times a day? Yikes.

19th: I still don't think environmental effects matter much. Doing them all at once isn't a big deal, either.

At low level I don't see this as a problem, at 7th level it's finally a bit useful, and it's powerful at higher levels. The uses per day growth probably need to be frozen or seriously curtailed.


Just going to chime in that to me the comparison reads more as an argument in favor of buffing technomancers as opposed to nerfing witchwarpers - though I'm by no means saying it doesn't need any nerfing at all.

Just when you've got three caster classes & two of them have no empty levels & one of them has five, I'd say the solution is to fill up the empty levels on the one outlier.


First, you're right, I must have scrolled back too far when checking for the skill points. It's 4.

Now, I'm not saying that infinite worlds is overpowered by itself. I'm saying it's useful and is added to multiple other useful abilities, more in utility and in frequency than what technomancer can provide and more in frequency than many mystic abilities. That's why I suggested trimming down on the uses rather than reworking the ability.

You're undervaluing difficult terrain. It can be the difference between an alien creature or a solarian reaching you in 1 move action and 2 move actions. It can prevent the shooter from taking a guarded step away from your party's solarian.

The elevation effect has several uses including the ones you mention. 3/day now.

Armored enemies also need their environmental protections turned on to avoid radiatiom, something that is not a given indoors or on a habitable planet. This effect is the same as a 3rd level spell, irradiate plus the option for other effects. Increased gravity gives half-speed movement and quite possibly encumbers anyone in armor (-5 to hit and initiative among other effects).

All it takes is for the ability to be useful sometimes (as opposed to a 9th level class ability that replicates an ability anyone wearing armor is assumed to have).


FormerFiend wrote:

Just going to chime in that to me the comparison reads more as an argument in favor of buffing technomancers as opposed to nerfing witchwarpers - though I'm by no means saying it doesn't need any nerfing at all.

Just when you've got three caster classes & two of them have no empty levels & one of them has five, I'd say the solution is to fill up the empty levels on the one outlier.

I don't disagree, but changing technomancer up is going to be harder/impossible than making sure witchwarper doesn't outperform technomancer.

Also, mystic's "non-empty" levels are mostly fluff and not as useful as witchwarper's extra abilities.

EDIT: The mystic does, at least, have a niche in HP healing--although some paradigm shifts encroach on this--and condition removal.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

1-3: I don't think difficult terrain is that useful. You have to spend a standard action for it, and the small radius at low level means you don't get much for it. It's not useless, but it's certainly not on the level of making people forget they were enchanted.

4-6: Basically no change. Needing to change the damage type of an environmental hazard is a once-per-campaign situation. Want to use it for something creative, like cooling lava so it hardens? That's not "explicitly stated", so it doesn't work.

7-9: Cover! Seriously seal a door to buy a little time! Very minor pit trap! This is where it finally starts pulling its weight.

10-12: Bigger radius is great, and you can use it to buy a little protection from the elements if your suit can't handle it. You can inconvenience creatures without spacesuits.

13-15: Silence doesn't stop casters, so this mostly just adds to the inconveniencing of creatures without spacesuits.

16-18: This is where it gets pretty cool! A whole range of effects, some weak damage, and it's got a larger radius?

19-20: I don't know how much getting all the effects is better than getting the most important effect. Maybe gravity helps hold them in the radiation better?


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Blake's Tiger wrote:

Mystic

Empty levels: 0

Technomancer
Empty levels: 5

Witchwarper
Empty levels: 0

a bit a a derail(sorry)but I would like to respectfully disagree with your asessment spellcastes empty levels. IMO, the technomancers only empty levels are 9 and 15; and the mystic has empty levels at 5, 8, 14 and 17; and the Witchwarper has empty levels at 15 and maybe 9.

This is because I count getting acess to a new level of spells as a class feature; and i dont consider +1 to 2 skills to be one.

Otherwise im with qidest and xenocrat, im not convinced that infinate worlds is good.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

It’s eventually useful, but not in the same way that spell cache is until high levels. Which is okay, because if you get past a rough first level, you can start picking up once-per-person-per-day effects to pad out your adventuring day.


Quote:
It's not useless, but it's certainly not on the level of making people forget they were enchanted.

As a generic spellcaster, I'm going to encounter more times when making difficult terrain where I want it than when I want someone to forget they failed their save against charm person.

As a organized play spellcaster, it's going to come up quite a bit more often.

I'll reiterate: the ability by itself is not "overpowered," but it is useful and the suite of usefull abilities (terrain manipulation, rerolls, paradigm shifts, and customizable skill bonuses) with a cherry picked technomancer spell list makes the technomancer less appealing or even obsolete.

Flip the analysis: why would I play a technomancer if I have access to witchwarper? What does the technomancer do better that someone else can't do?

If, as a part, I'm worried about Intelligence-based skills like Computers and Engineering, there's likely to be a mechanic, envoy, or operative to take care of that. If I'm worried about blast spells, the witchwarper has those (plus summon and polymorph) and a suite if combat useful abilities.

I'm not saying the whole thing needs to go in the scrap pile, but I think it out performs the technomancer.


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Blake's Tiger wrote:
Quote:
It's not useless, but it's certainly not on the level of making people forget they were enchanted.

As a generic spellcaster, I'm going to encounter more times when making difficult terrain where I want it than when I want someone to forget they failed their save against charm person.

Yeah, but it also makes them forget they made their save against charm person. That can be even more useful sometimes.

Blake's Tiger wrote:


Flip the analysis: why would I play a technomancer if I have access to witchwarper? What does the technomancer do better that someone else can't do?

Weapons enhancement/summoning. Temporary weapon proficiency. Creating tech items to solve utility problems. Recharging weapons if you're on a long wilderness adventure or under siege. Metamagic for increased spell range, duration, damage, or excluding targets. Spell debuffing and combos via Mental Mark. Starship combat excellence in one role, competence in two others. For the same price as the ability to recharge all your weapons, a "LOL, no" ability to disarm traps and bypass doors that is better (at the cost of spell slot) than what an engineer or operative can do. Shooting through walls, or at things that went invisible. Sniper spell shenanigans. Hijacking/disabling robots. Creating flexible (and money free) grenade effects, including hybrid grenades that can substitute for spells known.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As Xenocrat points out, the Technomancer has a different playstyle. I don't think the Witchwarper makes the Technomancer obsolete.

I think the Witchwarper looks like an awesome class, but I still prefer Technomancers. The Technomancer matches my playstyle better. I like all the skills, the utilities, and the flavor. I'm alright with the Witchwarper being a little better in combat--my Technomancer still has plenty of useful and fun tricks up his sleeves.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I always thought of the technomancer as kind of bland and weak given that it has very few interesting class features aside from spells and a talent pool.

Infinite Worlds is also pathetically weak until later levels.

I don't think the witchwarper makes the technomancer obsolete. If it did, then I'd say that's a sign that both classes aren't very well designed.


I was talking more about role or niche than is an individual magical hack that you can select something specific that another class doesn't have.

Quote:
Starship combat excellence in one role, competence in two others.

I propose than anyone can be any role if you build your character that way, especially given Themes and the themeless theme. So this isn't really an argument with much weight with me, personally. I end up playing a lot of mystics. Talk about being shunted to the sidelines if you've got an Envoy on your team.

Quote:
Weapons enhancement/summoning.

You mean fabricate arms? It costs a spell slot and lasts rounds/level (1 combat). Is this going to be better than the spell you could have cast? The weapon won't be an item level higher than your level, so you might very well be carrying a better weapon. Or take a spell slot and full round action (1 round), a standard action and 1 RP to be proficient (2 round), to be able create a cannon to fire on the 3rd round.

Empowered Weapon? It costs a spell slot and the Mechanic can do the same all day long. Technomancer's gets better than the Mechanics starting at 7th level, but it does 3d6 damage with a chance to miss vs. the explosive blast it could have cast for 9d6 damage in a 20 ft radius.

For me, anything requiring spending a spell slot is no different than a simply having different spell known.

Quote:
Temporary weapon proficiency.

I don't see building a character around using weapons that you find on adventure as appealing. It costs 1 RP and lasts for minutes/level.

Quote:
Creating tech items to solve utility problems.

No weapon or armor or magic items. This would be pretty good if: it didn't take a spell slot, but I could forgive it that if you didn't also need to provide it with the battery to make it go for the minutes/level that it exists.

Quote:
Recharging weapons if you're on a long wilderness adventure or under siege.

I'm not seeing this ability, but it definitely comes up less often than difficult terrain would be useful (just to make an example).

Quote:
Metamagic for increased spell range, duration, damage, or excluding targets. Spell debuffing and combos via Mental Mark. For the same price as the ability to recharge all your weapons, a "LOL, no" ability to disarm traps and bypass doors that is better (at the cost of spell slot) than what an engineer or operative can do. Shooting through walls, or at things that went invisible. Sniper spell shenanigans.

These are useful, but I don't see them as class-defining.

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Hijacking/disabling robots.

That's a good one.

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Creating flexible (and money free) grenade effects, including hybrid grenades that can substitute for spells known.

Fabricate explosives is useful, if slow, when you need it, but, again, not class defining.

Honestly, if the fabricate-line of magic hacks weren't so unimpressive compared to simply casting a spell, those plus the ability to mentally manipulate robots would be a fair argument that the technomancer's niche hasn't been stolen.

But everything you've mentioned is a magical hack, so let's see what the Witchwarper parallel, paradigm shift can do. Witchwarper gets the same number of these as the Technomancer.

Again, I'm not saying any of these individual powers are "overpowered," only that they are useful. So when you add up the number of useful options the Witchwarper has per day vs. the technomancer, the technomancer appears to lose out.

None of these cost a spell slot vs. the technomancer's all costing spell slots or RP. Most cost nothing. The ones that cost RP, I point out the cost.

- At will, reaction, once per target per day debuff to an enemies attack roll (it does get a save).
- At will, once per target per day shaken debuff
- 1 RP, reaction, reduce the damage of an attack against an ally to the minimum possible damage (pre-emptive healing)
- At will, standard action, +1 to +3 AC
- Prevent wounds in case you can't use lessen injury due to the attack being a critical or a trick attack.
- At will, once per target per day get rid of a creature's energy resistance (it does get a save)
- 1 RP, reaction, grant your ally a re-roll on a saving throw

Those are just 2nd level examples.


Blake's Tiger wrote:
I was talking more about role or niche than is an individual magical hack that you can select something specific that another class doesn't have.

There are no classes the solely own any important role or niche. Damage, crowd control, recovery, and skills/utility are all covered by multiple classes. Some are just better at subsets of these things. The technomancer can be good at many of them.

Quote:
Starship combat excellence in one role, competence in two others.
Blake's Tiger wrote:


I propose than anyone can be any role if you build your character that way, especially given Themes and the themeless theme. So this isn't really an argument with much weight with me, personally. I end up playing a lot of mystics. Talk about being shunted to the sidelines if you've got an Envoy on your team.

You can "be in a role," sure, but you won't be any good at it without an insight bonus and a reason to invest heavily in either dex (not hard) or int. At low levels you can do that with feat investment (or just be a gunner), but at high levels you need some class support to reliably hit DCs.

Blake's Tiger wrote:


Quote:
Weapons enhancement/summoning.
You mean fabricate arms? It costs a spell slot and lasts rounds/level (1 combat). Is this going to be better than the spell you could have cast? The weapon won't be an item level higher than your level, so you might very well be carrying a better weapon. Or take a spell slot and full round action (1 round), a standard action and 1 RP to be proficient (2 round), to be able create a cannon to fire on the 3rd round.

You get proficiency from fabricate arms, no need for another hack, action, or RP to gain that. You get rounds/level uses, so you use it once and then fire many times, versus casting a spell once and getting damage once. You can pick your element (F/E, E, S, or C for explode options) and can pick nonlethal AOE effects, auto entangle, full auto blast with physical damage, and plenty of other weapon options that spells can't provide.

Blake's Tiger wrote:


Empowered Weapon? It costs a spell slot and the Mechanic can do the same all day long. Technomancer's gets better than the Mechanics starting at 7th level, but it does 3d6 damage with a chance to miss vs. the explosive blast it could have cast for 9d6 damage in a 20 ft radius.

The Technomancer is more flexible, as it can be used with physical weapons and enhance accuracy, which is more important than damage boosts. The Mechanic can only do it as long as his ammo holds up, and can suffer action economy issues if profilgate expenditure forces a reload in combat. They're well balanced options.

Blake's Tiger wrote:


For me, anything requiring spending a spell slot is no different than a simply having different spell known.

"LOL, the Technomancer only has unique spells known!" Good rebuttal!

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Temporary weapon proficiency.
Blake's Tiger wrote:


Quote:
Creating tech items to solve utility problems.
No weapon or armor or magic items. This would be pretty good if: it didn't take a spell slot, but I could forgive it that if you didn't also need to provide it with the battery to make it go for the minutes/level that it exists.

Batteries are cheap, and Technomancers with Charging Jolt can just put them in a weapon to recharge them with left over spells at the end of the day.

In any case I hope a FAQ will someday resolve the "power cell" disfunction from the Core rulebook and clarify that created items come with a full charge.

Blake's Tiger wrote:


Quote:
Recharging weapons if you're on a long wilderness adventure or under siege.
I'm not seeing this ability, but it definitely comes up less often than difficult terrain would be useful (just to make an example).

Charging Jolt. It's best for feeding charge hungry heavy weapons that do more than a 1st level spell slot would otherwise do. Also for crushing Engineering checks to disable doors and traps.


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While yes, sone of the Witchwarper's abilities are steiner than the magic hacks, I'm fairly sure the Technomancer had the better spells. Transfer charge, magic missile, micrbot assault, holographic image, junksword. And that's just the low level ones I can think of. And looking at them, the Witchwarper mostly have spells that have saves. Technomancer has things like magic missile and micrbot assault, which has no save. Only suck. Plus, I think sone of their abilities work well together. A Technomancer with junksword or micrbot assault will be thankful for the difficult terrain


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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

As someone with a technomancer in SFS, I'm having real envy over the witchwarper's paradigm shifts over magic hacks. The most brutal comparison to me is Countertech+Countertech Sentinel vs. Lessen Injury.

Countertech+Countertech Sentinel:

  • Costs 2 magic hacks to pick up (2nd level + 11th level)
  • Can be used only vs. attacks from technological weapons or technological sources within medium range
  • Affects yourself or allies within 15 ft.
  • Uses a reaction.
  • Requires expenditure of a spell slot. Defending against any relevant enemy is likely to require your highest or second highest level slots.
  • Uses 1 RP to attempt to protect an ally.
  • Requires a countertech check with around 50% chance of success vs. any level appropriate attack.
  • Reduces damage by half.

    Lessen Injury:

  • Costs 1 paradigm shift to pick up (2nd level)
  • Can be used vs. any incoming damage from any source that rolls dice to deal damage (almost everything).
  • Affects yourself or allies within 100ft
  • Uses a reaction
  • Requires no spell slots
  • Uses 1 RP to protect yourself or an ally
  • Works with 100% reliability
  • Reduces damage vs. spells and many hazards by ~70% based on a d6 based damage source. Reduces damage vs. attacks by 10-50% based on the alien archive combatant stat array, increasing as you gain levels and as more of the damage comes from dice rather than flat bonuses.


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    Blake's Tiger wrote:

    (...) While the Witchwarper cannot do the "job" of a Healing connection mystic, it possesses more utility and customizable power than the Mystic.

    This power creep is what immediately concerned me when I heard about the playtest.

    I think the abilities could be toned down by scaling back the times per day of infinite worlds significantly and maybe shave off 1 or 2 paradigm shifts.

    I found, while reading the class, that it was WAY MORE interesting and not that strong at all, at least not in a manner that is obviously overpowered like Operatives. I think the true issue is Mystics and Technomancers (and most core classes, really) having a lot of boring, highly situational and outright trap options.

    I think all the classes could be brought up to the power level of these new classes. They at least look interesting and spark your interest. Unlike looking at the Envoy's Improvisations for the 8th level, damn, everything is lackluster, boring or should've been built in the class already, the same with some mystic powers. The technomancers as well.

    I'm not arguing that the Witchwarper is perfect right now, but I'm way more interested in playing one than I am playing mystics or technomancers.


    Blake's Tiger wrote:

    First, you're right, I must have scrolled back too far when checking for the skill points. It's 4.

    Now, I'm not saying that infinite worlds is overpowered by itself. I'm saying it's useful and is added to multiple other useful abilities, more in utility and in frequency than what technomancer can provide and more in frequency than many mystic abilities. That's why I suggested trimming down on the uses rather than reworking the ability.

    You're undervaluing difficult terrain. It can be the difference between an alien creature or a solarian reaching you in 1 move action and 2 move actions. It can prevent the shooter from taking a guarded step away from your party's solarian.

    The elevation effect has several uses including the ones you mention. 3/day now.

    Armored enemies also need their environmental protections turned on to avoid radiatiom, something that is not a given indoors or on a habitable planet. This effect is the same as a 3rd level spell, irradiate plus the option for other effects. Increased gravity gives half-speed movement and quite possibly encumbers anyone in armor (-5 to hit and initiative among other effects).

    All it takes is for the ability to be useful sometimes (as opposed to a 9th level class ability that replicates an ability anyone wearing armor is assumed to have).

    Also note raising terrain is nice but lowering it is good too. Sometimes you need to make the barrel to put the ducks into before shooting them. Alien critters charging you boop now they are in a 10 foot pit where you can rain fire down into until they either climb out while being shot at or just get shot to pieces. A lot of animal critters don't have a lot in the way of ranged attacks so this could be super handy when exploring worlds.


    Blake's Tiger wrote:

    Empowered Weapon? It costs a spell slot and the Mechanic can do the same all day long. Technomancer's gets better than the Mechanics starting at 7th level, but it does 3d6 damage with a chance to miss vs. the explosive blast it could have cast for 9d6 damage in a 20 ft radius.

    For me, anything requiring spending a spell slot is no different than a simply having different spell known.

    I'm dubious of this assessment; it ignores the damage of your weapon. A Battlemage Technomancer should have access to 2d12 or 4d6 weapons. With 3d6 on to of that, its 7d6. Keep in mind as well, they also get an extra 7 damage from weapon specialization, which is about the average damage of the 2d6 difference.

    In terms of a sniper shot though, you're not going to stop there; you're going to go with Supercharge Weapon as well for an effective 13d6. This is not even including the Spellshot at 8th level that adds a spell like that 9d6 spell on top of that, which you'd get at a higher level.

    ... And theoretically, they can also add the Harmful Spells magic hack on top of that so that Spellshot becomes even more powerful; even if the extra 4 damage at level 8 is only equivalent to an extra 1d6 worth of effective damage.

    The Witchwarper? I've made an entire rant about how all of its Paradigms have virtually no offensive abilities, and are almost totally defensive. And even if we're only talking spells, the mere fact their spells don't get even HALF their level as any kind of bonus to spell damage makes it immediately inferior as a blaster caster to a Technomancer with Harmful Spells; A petty comparison for only a handfull of damage? Maybe, but its still a valid comparison.

    … Also, the Witchwarper's Shifting Surge spell is a strictly worse version of Supercharge Weapon. I know that's kind of a cheap shot, given the Witchwarper has virtually no gun abilities to begin with, but that's my thing.

    Conversely, "Stunlocking" like the Witchwarper seems to be built for with its Paradigms... Is not. In Pathfinder, I built Blaster-Caster Draconic Sorcerers; stunlocking in comparison like the Witchwarper does with its Paradigms just seems... Needlessly dependant on the rest of the team to do damage.


    Luna Protege wrote:


    ... And theoretically, they can also add the Harmful Spells magic hack on top of that so that Spellshot becomes even more powerful; even if the extra 4 damage at level 8 is only equivalent to an extra 1d6 worth of effective damage.

    Unfortunately I don't think this is true. There's language preventing doubling up on some magic altering hacks that I think applies to both of these. But Harmful Spells is a pretty minor boost, the ban only really harms a high level gimmick build combining Harmful Spells and Eternal Spell to perpetually Spellshot Overhead for 2d8+half level bonus damage on all your standard action shots.

    Luna Protege wrote:


    … Also, the Witchwarper's Shifting Surge spell is a strictly worse version of Supercharge Weapon. I know that's kind of a cheap shot, given the Witchwarper has virtually no gun abilities to begin with, but that's my thing.

    Disagree, if you're using a laser as your tricked out main weapon and end up fighting a fire elemental, red dragon, or devil then Shifting Surge is a lifesaver. You're better off having an alternate element or always on plan rather than taking a break every round to cast this spell, but it's a decent backup if you're resource constrained.


    Xenocrat wrote:
    Luna Protege wrote:


    ... And theoretically, they can also add the Harmful Spells magic hack on top of that so that Spellshot becomes even more powerful; even if the extra 4 damage at level 8 is only equivalent to an extra 1d6 worth of effective damage.

    Unfortunately I don't think this is true. There's language preventing doubling up on some magic altering hacks that I think applies to both of these. But Harmful Spells is a pretty minor boost, the ban only really harms a high level gimmick build combining Harmful Spells and Eternal Spell to perpetually Spellshot Overhead for 2d8+half level bonus damage on all your standard action shots.

    I'm not seeing this wording. But whatever.

    Xenocrat wrote:
    Luna Protege wrote:


    … Also, the Witchwarper's Shifting Surge spell is a strictly worse version of Supercharge Weapon. I know that's kind of a cheap shot, given the Witchwarper has virtually no gun abilities to begin with, but that's my thing.
    Disagree, if you're using a laser as your tricked out main weapon and end up fighting a fire elemental, red dragon, or devil then Shifting Surge is a lifesaver. You're better off having an alternate element or always on plan rather than taking a break every round to cast this spell, but it's a decent backup if you're resource constrained.

    Its not worth taking as a Witchwarper, not if you take the Paradigm shift with basically the same ability but without the damage bonus, and that Paradigm Shift can be used infinitely.

    By all accounts, the only people who will benefit from the spell, are those who grab it as a spell gem, who are neither a Witchwarper themselves, nor have one in their party. As a first level spell, it can be relatively easy to have one on hand during most times. If you only expect to use it once or twice, it would be cheap enough as a first level spell gem. If you're expecting to see these creatures often, you're better off upgrading to a weapon to fight them specifically, or get yourself a "Holy" infusion.


    Magic Hack wrote:
    You have carefully studied the forces that define magic and can manipulate them. You learn your first magic hack at 2nd level, and you learn an additional magic hack every 3 levels thereafter. When casting a spell, you can apply no more than one magic hack that affects the attributes of a spell (such as distant spell or extended spell).

    "Attributes of a spell" is not defined, but the pretty convincing argument is that both damage and range are attributes of a damaging spell, so you can't combine Harmful Spells and Spellshot.

    Converting energy types at bad action economy is a fringe but occasionally very useful ability. I would never waste a precious Paradigm Shift on it, but at some point 1st level spells known and slots aren't very important, so I could definitely see having Shifting Surge for those rare occasions, as well as for the minor bonus damage.

    Having neither is a perfectly fine option. Having a unique spell on their list that you personally don't care for is also ok!

    Dark Archive

    Comparing the Witchwarper to the Technomancer on a dpr basis is generally a poor comparison because the Witchwarper is not intended to be a blaster. It’s primarily a controller, or in the forge of combat what you would call in “anvil”, while it’s defensive powers that let it relieve pressure from the party Healer/supporter along with its buff spells make party supporter/buffer or “arm” in the forge of combat it’s secondary role. The class is designed to have both a primary and secondary role that have nothing to do with dealing damage, so of course it’s dpr is gonna look terrible next to a class whoes primary combat role is dealing damage; that’s just going to be a given.

    A better compsrison to make would be between the Witchwarper and the other control caster, the Mystic. Between those two, I believe Witchwarper looks to be the superior controller, but mystic looks to bring a lot more versatility to the table as a result of having higher skills and a much more diverse spell list. Thus while Witchwarper will most certainly outperform Mystic as a controller, Mystic is not invalidated by any means as it’s ability to be a controller as well as an off-healer, and fill out of combat roles like party face or even pilot depending on connection, will make it a good caster for filling multible roles that may be missing in a party at the same time. Like, in a party of Soldier, Biohacker, and (insert frail dpr class like Techno or Opperative here), I’d much rather have a Witchwarper over a mystic as all the other party roles outside controller are covered and thus having the best possible controller seems like the right pick. However, in a party of Soldier, Vanguard and Opperative I’d much rather have an overlord mystic over a Witchwarper, as it can fill the missing face, controller and healer roles all at the same time; something a Witchwarper could never hope to do.


    A witchwarper can’t really fill HP healing role (unless you’re a party of androids), it only has status removal.


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    Takhisis wrote:
    Comparing the Witchwarper to the Technomancer on a dpr basis is generally a poor comparison because the Witchwarper is not intended to be a blaster.

    I'm a stop you right there, because if we look at the Core classes, all of them have the potential to be built in multiple directions. Each one has DPR potential, each one has some battlefield control or other support potential, each one has survival potential. In case you hadn't noticed, each core class had not ONE viable build provided as an example at the back of their entry, but FOUR.

    … and that's just their initial possibilities. With more material, more viable builds will open up.

    To claim that this one singular class, out of all others, is only meant for one role, or that they're only meant for a number of similar roles, severely limits the class compared to the others in terms of flexibility.

    Takhisis wrote:


    A better compsrison to make would be between the Witchwarper and the other control caster, the Mystic.

    The Mystic can be built into a Paladin-esque heavy fighter, with spells that grant defence buffs to themselves this is covered by the "Crusader Chaplain" build. Or they can take the MINDBREAKER connection and gains immediate DPR potential in its first three levels; sure the third level one is unlikely to trigger on a spell like Mind Thrust, but if you're blending combat and control, it works.

    Almost all the connections also seem to have potent offensive abilities at higher levels. The Healer connection can steal life at 9th; the Mindbreaker has a Save or Die ability at 15th and an intense damage ability at 18th; and Star Shaman can call a meteor shower at 15th.

    So immediately, the Witchwarper seems to have less offensive options than the supposed "dedicated healer" class, which you're refering to as a control class; as I've struggled to find an offensive ability that the Witchwarper has outside of Infinite worlds, but I can point out multiple offensive abilities for the Mystic.

    … This is all BEFORE we go into the fact that the Mystics damaging spell Mind Thrust is probably one of the most suitable tank busters just for targeting a Will save rather than a fortitude or reflex save.

    Now I wouldn't say the Mystic is optimized for the role of damage dealer or anything, but at least its abilities acknowledges it as an option; where the Witchwarper either ignores that option up until the spell selection, which it doesn't even give any bonuses to unlike even the Mystic which at least has connection options that can capitalize on their spells.

    Dark Archive

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    Well, I suppose that depends on what your definition of “offense” is. Some (like myself) would argue that stuns and debuffs are a form of offense, but regardless I will give you that they seem to be pushing the class very hard in a single direction (Controller/non-Healing suppport Mage being that direction). I’m not defending the class’ design, I am just saying that comparing the dpr of a class not made to be a primary dpr character to a class specificly made to have a very high dpr/have damage dealing as a possible primary combat role is poor, and that if you want to see if it’s dpr is too low or not it should be compared against a Mystic’s DPR potential and not a Techno’s. You did just that, so I am admitting that you are right on their damage options being too weak as if a Mystic can out dpr then as well then that is an issue (unlike a techno being able to do so, which is not because they can also out dpr a mystic are are intended to have the option to be a very high damage class/primary damage dealer.)


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    Currently, the Witchwarper doesn't have its final spell list.
    I hope the Witchwarper spell list will be very different from its competitors.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
    SuperBidi wrote:

    Currently, the Witchwarper doesn't have its final spell list.

    I hope the Witchwarper spell list will be very different from its competitors.

    Yeah, I hope the spell list is more unique instead of the weird hybrid list it currently is.


    Jack Rift wrote:
    Yeah, I hope the spell list is more unique instead of the weird hybrid list it currently is.

    It's the only thing I find a bit annoying. I'm planning on testing the Witchwarper on an SFS module at the end of the month, but without it's final spell list, what will I test? And, in general, if I create an SFS character, I want to keep it. But what will happen if at the end of the year I discover a completely weird spell list that doesn't suit either my play style or my character?

    I think Paizo should release a few more low levels Witchwarper spells so we can playtest it properly.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

    I agree. I want to like the class, but honestly it is my least favorite currently out of the play test classes. Something just doesn't quite fit with me yet. I am hoping that a final spell list will correct some of this for me.

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