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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber. 370 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.



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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
breithauptclan wrote:
And have you tried actually playing one of these builds in a Moderate or Severe threat encounter?

Not enough to feel comfortable discussing efficacy, hence my statements about optimization. I've run through some personal test battles, but that isn't the same as running through a chapter of an Adventure Path, as an example. I'll need to wait until I join another campaign (and make myself not play a Monk) to give a realistic field test.

pixierose wrote:
While this is doable, I think it fails to do what I like most about the Bloodrager. A bloodrager imo should be able to have their rage or rage analogue work with the spell-casting. Moment of clarity kind of goes against that vibe, you are pausing the rage to do the magic stuff.

So take stuff that doesn't require Moment of Clarity. That's half of what took up time to write the guide - finding all of the stuff that could be cast on its own. Heal, Harm, Elemental Toss and Shadow Projectile are all great examples of spells that can be cast without Moment of Clarity.

To rephrase, Rage /DOES/ work with spellcasting. It doesn't work as well with /ALL/ spellcasting... and it shouldn't given balance issues.


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I added a guide: "Barbarians Are Already Bloodragers!" aka "The Bloodrager 2E Spell List"

Discussion Thread


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Someone on A Pathfinder 2nd Edition FB group I frequent mentioned a while back the idea of converting the Bloodrager class to Pathfinder 2nd, and I went "I think it already exists. It's just Barbarian w/ Moment of Clarity and a Spellcasting Dedication"

Yeah... that opened a rabbit hole for me.

So, here's the first version of what became a guide to trying to make a Bloodrager. The biggest thing is figuring out which spells you can and can't cast based on being in a Rage and how many hands you have free.

I also wrote some sample builds, but, in full disclosure, I don't see myself as much of an optimizer, and I'm specifically much better at modeling an idea. I literally went "This would be cool!", and began doing research. If there are points of optimization I can include, feel free to let me know. They are also linked inside of the guide.

"Barbarians Are Already Bloodragers!" aka "The Bloodrager 2E Spell List"

Samples I created. I tried to vary the Instincts, the spellcasting traditions, and how many spells are focus spells vs spell slot spells.

Goblin Dragon Instinct Flames Oracle

Goblin Dragon Instinct Flames Oracle (Free Archetype)

Human Animal Instinct Aberrant Sorcerer Monk

Human Animal Instinct Aberrant Sorcerer Monk (Free Archetype)

Dwarf Giant Instinct Magus Psychic

Dwarf Giant Instinct Magus Psychic (Free Archetype)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

"Hot Take": Optimization and Tactics are substitutes for each other in Pathfinder 2nd Edition.

That is a shift from Pathfinder 1st Edition. P1E had more "trap" options while also sporting more "best in class" feats and a multiclass system very conducive to maximizing pure power levels. On the other side, the fluidity of movement as well as the streamlined set of bonuses and penalties make tactical combat a considerably stronger option in Pathfinder 2nd than in Pathfinder 1st; simply put, it is easy for any character to assist an ally in attacks, heal an ally, debuff an enemy for an ally, etc., depending on what you do. Optimization was easy in Pathfinder 1st, while using tactics was hard.

The Adventure Paths appear designed to assume a certain level of tactics. It can be expected that a monster will have "bigger numbers" than a PC; tactics drag these "bigger numbers" down to a manageable size. Optimization, on the other hand, reduce this discrepancy by making the PC numbers bigger rather than making the monster numbers smaller. This leads to the "substitution" theory; both are means to get to the same point.

Some often deride optimization; I'm "old school" enough to think of "characters" and not "builds", as an example. Moreover, the design of Pathfinder 2nd makes attempts at optimization rather obvious; you know it when you see the flick mace, shadow signet or any other item in which you can tell someone dug through the crates to find the things that gives the biggest numbers. It is easier to see this as the latest iteration of "ROLEplaying vs ROLLplaying".

With that said, I am personally grappling with whether or not this is a genuinely fair comparison. While I feel a sense of loving nostalgia at the idea of "Stranger Things", TTRPGs have been around for a minute now, and the audience for the games has thankfully changed. If I were still the target audience, as a nearly 50 year old man, this hobby that I love would have long ago gone out of business. We have new people in the hobby, many of whom came from playing video games. If I'm playing a video game, I'm making a character designed to beat the game. To rephrase, the second a controller enters your hand, you stop creating a "character" and start creating a "build". Is it really that unfair to be surprised people come up with "builds" rather than "characters"? Don't get me wrong... I will continue to clown any graduate of Jeziver's School For Gifted Humans, that incredible gnome orphanage that finds parentless humans and trains them to be Fighters with a free archetype of Champion... some level of grace could stand to be given in anything less obvious than that, no?

Moreover, and these are the quiet parts we don't want to admit... tactics involve working with OTHER PEOPLE. Some gamers don't really want to do that, and many gamers don't know HOW to. Interpersonal dynamics can be hard, particularly given the frequency with which we may find ourselves gaming with someone who is not a "friend" per se. Moreover, you have to know HOW to use tactics. As I mentioned above, traditionally tactics aren't a big thing; you ran up to the other team and start swinging. It's hard to admit that you don't know how to "play the game well", but until you learn the nuances of Recalling Knowledge, Athletics, Aid, Flanking, Concealment, Intimidation, etc.. you actually /DON'T/ know how to play well. For many of us, we can learn to ask our fellow players to flank for us or to withdraw from combat if they are getting surrounded... or we can get a weapon with the Fatal trait and try to deal with our problems ourselves. I know I have to be careful to not deride those that chose the latter option, because , even if it is not one I would espouse, it is a very understandable one.

On the other side, it should not be surprising to someone that is focused on a "build" that their cries of "OMG! The game is a MEET GRINDR!!!" may get a response of "Well, how are you playing it?" The game, in my opinion, is really NOT designed to focus on optimization; it's designed for you to work together. You can focus on creating a "character", because, unlike Pathfinder 1st Edition, it is a LOT easier to create something that fits your vision that Doesn't Suck, because the number of trap options are less. The /MINIMUM/ optimization needed in Pathfinder 2e is basically "put the most resources into the thing you do the most"; you should typically be good from there. As such, it is VERY reasonable, when one complains about the difficulty of the game, to not have a conversation about the character creation choices made and to instead have a conversation about the actions used at a given time. Yes, this is a more complicated and difficult conversation, but it is a part of learning how to play the game /WELL/. Before declaring the game bad/wrong/overpowered, we've got to be able to ask about the decisions that led one down that path. You may actually NOT know how to play the game well yet.

Most fights in Pathfinder 1E/5e/3.5 are won during character creation. Fights in Pathfinder 2nd Edition are won during gameplay. However, you can still win a lot during character creation in 2E, and we end up with a constant push and pull to balance these things.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I believe they have simply moved the design of the classes/ancestries away from "Here's our initial presentation to be expanded later" to "This is the class/ancestry as-is and in complete form, and unless there is some specific reason germane to a later idea it will not be expanded".

I prefer it this way thus far.


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Milo v3 wrote:


Doing 1 or 2 supernatural things per encounter is not my idea of a supernatural character.

You could take Clinging Shadows Initiate, Wild Winds Initiate, Wind Jump, Meditative Focus, or Sense Ki to up that number...


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So I just wrote a Breakdown of the Monk arguing it actually /DOES/ have three subclasses and that action economy is the actual strength of the Monk in a way far beyond Flurry of Blows so... yeah. That's my argument. :D

Martialmasters wrote:


This is a fair point and I think the disconnect on this front for some players is two factors

1- you have to build for the support options, it's not like a champion in that regard.

2-the support often isn't reactive or in the forms it buffs. You are not providing group save bonuses or a reaction to protect someone.

Would you say that, while the Monk doesn't have specific group support options, it has great ways to use standard options, like flanking due to Incredible Movement, Intimidation via Gorilla or Dragon Stance, Maneuver feats, etc..?


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The "... but True Strike" argument is the bottom line one that people want to ignore in order to get what they want, which is a system closer to Pathfinder 1E. Allow me to rephrase the request.

"Can we have Magic Attacks hit more without using Magic to hit more?"

The answer is and should be "No".


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As almost no one has an practical experience playing one, I'll give mine. I don't have set numbers, though now I'll follow more closely.

I'm playing a Monk using FA and ABP for Ruby Phoenix, with Jalmeri Heavenseeker and a couple of damage runes (Impactful and Frost).

The team has a Barbarian using Dragon Instinct, Rogue Dedication Sneak Attack, and Elven Curve Blade, and a couple of damage runes (Electricity and Sonic).

WITH Heaven's Thunder, the Monk damage has been roughly comparable to the Barbarian.

She is hitting MORE than the Barbarian, however. There is only a +1 difference to hit, but Flurry of Blows and Crane Flutter let her swing more often thus far.

Take that solely as a data point, and a non- specific one to boot, from a single session (we just turned level 12, which is when I picked it up).

Edit: Right after posting this someone hit me with a screen shot of a Discord chat where Mark Seifter offered a suggestion. I can't confirm the veracity. Thoughts?

Screenshot Here


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VoodistMonk wrote:
derpdidruid wrote:
Drunken master/sensei gets infinite party wide ki powers
I really need to examine this further...

The rules are... squishy... about how much a character can drink a day. There's a level of GM interpretation, but at minimum you know you can drink CON*2+1 drinks a day before negative repercussion. Add in Deep Drinker, and that's a LOT of ki in the harshest interpretation of how much you can have a day.

In the most liberal interpretation... The game never gives a limit to how many drinks one can have in a day...

EDIT: Mass Drunken Step is also fun and high utility as well.


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I don't know if I would say "best", but one of the more unique ones that I'm loving right now (as a monk guy) is a Sensei/Ki Mystic Monk. You get some really good Bardic Performances (Inspire Courage, Competence, and Greatness), and access to all of the feats and add-ons of having Bardic Performance as a result. The unique part is the ability to give people your ki-based powers while using your "performance". With Qiggong substitutions, this provides a lot of variety. The Sensei casts TrueStrike from a distance. Extra speed, gaseous form, dodge bonuses, barkskin, no-component restoration... anything you can do on yourself, you now do on others. Ki Mystic gets you more ki (more buffing!), plus the ability to distribute an extra +4 to a skill that stacks with Inspire Competence, or reroll an attack or save as an immediate action.

So that poison dart your partner succumbed to? Have them reroll that. Plus, you can reduce the cost of your bigger gun abilities (Ring of Ki Mastery). At level ten it goes into overdrive, as now things affect EVERY ally within 30'.

MASS RESTORATION! MASS +4 TO DODGE! YOU GET A TRUE STRIKE! YOU GET A TRUE STRIKE! EVERYONE GETS A TRUE STRIKE!

Again... I don't know about "best", but it is certainly unique.


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Ryan Freire wrote:
kaisc006 wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
kaisc006 wrote:
Either way monsters will ignore him.
Why? Does he have a sign "Hard to hit, but doesnt do any damage"?
No when the other characters actually do something from casting an offensive spell to hitting for good damage they will have signs that say “hit me because I can kill you”
Good thing he gives them all +4 to ac

For perspective, a 10th level Sensei gives everyone within 30' +4 to AC for an hour and a half at the cost of a single ki point... and can Inspire Courage/Competence/Greatness, give out an extra 20' movement, allow everyone TrueStrike, etc.. All of this while keeping his Crane Style.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
JosMartigan wrote:
Well it's obvious the player of the half or isn't actually playing his 7 cha and 7 int. I wonder how they would take it if you brought up that he was literally ignoring those stats in regards how he should be playing the character?

Co-sign here. This isn't "old school" mentality; I'm old enough to be old school, and I'd say that the player needs to either redo the stats to represent the actual charisma level of the character or role play the character as though s/he is both pretty dumb and not a very good communicator.

What this guy is doing isn't "old school". It's allowing powergaming under the excuse of "just role-playing it".


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So first off, yes, I'm actually running modules adapted to a world where Technology has risen to compete with a declining magic world. Here are a few of the Paizo resources that would be helpful:

Savage Technologist Barbarian: Most of the stuff in the Technology Guide implements new rules from what I saw, but this archetype happens to work fully in the current system.

Tinkerer Alchemist: You're looking at this for the level 14 ability - Clockwork Mimicries: Make a clockwork version of a single Wondrous Item.

Experimenter Vigilante:Your vigilante is now a good enough chemist to make a mutagen and simply "know stuff" as the Bard class feature.

Experimental Gunsmith Gnome only, but this lets you enhance your gun with some higher tech.

Finally, as my own houseruled class, I'd offer up to you The Futurist, which is a class that is meant to represent somewhere around the level of tech you seem to be espousing.


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Milo v3 wrote:
Class identity in Pathfinder is an odd thing. I'm currently going through every single class allowed in my campaign and seeing what archetypes and options they'd need to take to all become "monks", and so far the only issue is "village mystic who rides atop a ghost turtle, striking foes with his tiger fork" (the cavalier) is abit too far from monk than I'd prefer.

But I need his stats, because that man is TOTALLY going to show up in my campaign. I don't care how I have to write him in...


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kyrt-ryder wrote:

That's a difficult task Jam. You run into opposition on ALL sides that way.

The people like me who like Joshua-to-Jehova Pathfinder, the people who believe in Pathfinder Middle-Earth AND the casual casty fans who see martials getting boosted simultaneous to their characters taking the Nerfbat.

The result is less balanced to the game as a whole if you take one extreme or the other [I've handled that in my game with a standard party of 3, a nerfbat casters down to martials game might be balanced with a party of 5 or 6] but better recieved by at least one target audience.

Ya wanna know why I don't link my rules to this thread?

So that when I go "You guys are rejecting the idea without ever really giving it a chance", I can do so without feeling hypocritical. Roger Valentis's post is an excellent one for me - there's a lot of different ways we could do this. However, the reaction given is NO! You can't do that! That's wrong! That seems silly. Even if it is not something YOU are into, there's no reason to go in and tell someone that THEY can't do it.

I found an online version of Kirthfinder a bit back. I /LOVE/ the level of detail, and I do admire the way martials are lifted. There's no way I could play it with my group, due to the complexity. I don't NEED to go into the Kirthfinder thread and say that it's too complicated. It's cool for people that enjoy that style to play that thing.

Why can't others have nice things?

kyrt-ryder wrote:
My problem with Vancian isn't its existence, it's the way is made superior to every alternative.

Dropping prepared spellcasting is the single biggest factor I can think of to balancing the classes.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

OK, I rewrote the Fighter out as a class. Here it is, removing the fluff; I also have a link to this in the rules.

Spoiler:

Fighter

Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d12

Starting Wealth: 5d6 × 10 gp (average 175 gp.) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.

Class Skills: The fighter's class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Ranks: 4+Int modifier.

Table: Fighter
Lvl BAB Fort Refl Will Other Abilities
1 +1 +0 +2 +2 Fighting Style (Order, Challenge, Base Weapon Training), Bonus Feat
2 +2 +0 +3 +3 Bonus Feat, Bravery +1
3 +3 +1 +3 +3 Martial Flexibility
4 +4 +1 +4 +4 Combat Stamina
5 +5 +1 +4 +4 Weapon Training I
6 +6/+1 +2 +5 +5 Bonus Feat, Bravery +2
7 +7/+2 +2 +5 +5 Martial Flexibility (Swift action)
8 +8/+3 +2 +6 +6 Bonus Feat
9 +9/+4 +3 +6 +6 Weapon Training II
10 +10/+5 +3 +7 +7 Bonus Feat, Bravery +3
11 +11/+6/+1 +3 +7 +7 Martial Flexibility (Free action)
12 +12/+7/+2 +4 +8 +8 Fighting Style (Demanding Challenge), Bonus Feat
13 +13/+8/+3 +4 +8 +8 Weapon Training III
14 +14/+9/+4 +5 +9 +9 Bonus Feat, Bravery +4
15 +15/+10/+5 +5 +9 +9 Martial Flexibility (Immediate action)
16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +5 +10 +10 Bonus Feat
17 +17/+12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Weapon Training IV
18 +18/+13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Bonus Feat, Bravery +5
19 +19/+14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Martial Flexibility (Any number)
20 +20//+15+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Weapon Master

Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).

Fighting Style: At 1st level, a fighter chooses a fighting style, reflecting how the fighter’s personality affects her combat style. The fighter’s fighting style involves the following abilities.

Fighter’s Order: The fighter selects an order from any available to the cavalier or the samurai. The fighter’s effective cavalier or samurai level is her fighter level. The fighter’s order does not convey a mount, nor does it provide the fighter’s mount any abilities unless the fighter has levels of a class that would provide the mount abilities, such as cavalier.

Fighter’s Challenge: This acts as the challenge ability of the cavalier, using the fighter level as the effective cavalier level.

Base Weapon Training: The fighter can select one group of weapons from among any weapon training group. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls. This is considered Weapon Training I for the purposes of any feats or abilities.

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, 2nd level, 6th level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as Combat Feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”

Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

Bravery: Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

Martial Flexibility: At 3rd level, the fighter can use a move action to gain the benefit of a combat feat he doesn't possess. This effect lasts for 1 minute. The fighter must otherwise meet all the feat's prerequisites. He can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 his fighter level.

The fighter can use this ability again before the duration expires in order to replace the previous combat feat with another choice. If a combat feat has a daily use limitation (such as Stunning Fist), any uses of that combat feat while using this ability count toward that feat's daily limit. At later levels, when he gains multiple feats through this ability, the fighter can use those feats to meet the prerequisites of other feats he gains with this ability. Doing so means he cannot replace a feat currently fulfilling another's prerequisite without also replacing those feats that require it. Each individual feat selected counts toward his daily uses of this ability.

At 7th level, a fighter can use this ability to gain the benefit of two combat feats at the same time. He can select one feat as a swift action or two feats as a move action. At 11th level, a fighter can use this ability to gain the benefit of three combat feats at the same time. He can select one feat as a free action, two feats as a swift action, or three feats as a move action. At 15th level, a fighter can use this ability to gain the benefit of one combat feat as an immediate action or three combat feats as a swift action. At 19th level, a fighter can use this ability to gain the benefit of any number of combat feats as a swift action.

Combat Stamina: At 4th level, a fighter gains a stamina pool with a maximum number of stamina points equal to your base attack bonus + your Constitution modifier. During combat, a fighter can spend stamina points from this pool to perform a combat trick, the specific effects of which are dictated by a combat feat possessed. Spending stamina points in this way is not an action, but the fighter can't do so if she is unconscious, fatigued, or exhausted. The fighter can use as many combat tricks on the same action or attack as desires as long as she has the stamina points to spend), but she can't use the same combat trick twice within its scope. For instance, if a fighter have a combat trick that affects a single attack, she can't use that combat trick more than once on the same attack.

Dropping to 0 stamina points causes the fighter to become fatigued until she has 1 or more points in her stamina pool.

Temporary increases to her Constitution score, such as those granted by the core barbarian's rage class feature or bear's endurance, do not increase the number of stamina points in her pool or her pool's maximum number of stamina points. However, permanent increases to Constitution, such as the bonus granted by a belt of mighty constitution worn for more than 24 hours, do adjust stamina points.

A fighter regains stamina points by resting for short periods of time. She doesn't have to sleep while resting in this way, but she can't exert herself. A fighter stops regaining stamina points if she enters combat; takes an action that requires a Strength-, Dexterity-, or Constitution-based skill check or an ability check tied to one of those ability scores; or takes more than one move action or standard action in a round (a fighter can still take free, immediate, and swift actions). This reduction in her number of actions per round also effectively halves her overland speed. For each uninterrupted minute a fighter rests in this way, she regains 1 stamina point. If she is suffering from any of the following conditions, she can't regain stamina points: confused, cowering, dazed, dead, disabled, exhausted, fascinated, frightened, helpless, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, petrified, shaken, sickened, staggered, or stunned.

After a fighter makes an attack roll with a manufactured weapon, unarmed strike, or natural weapon attack with which the fighter is proficient, but before the results are revealed, she can spend up to 5 stamina points. If she does, she gains a competence bonus on the attack roll equal to the number of stamina points spent. If she misses with the attack, the stamina points spent are still lost.

Weapon Training: Starting at 5th level, a fighter gains an additional weapon training. She can select an advanced weapon training option, or she can expand her set of base weapon training groups. If she chooses the latter, can select one group of weapons, from among the weapon. Whenever she attacks with a weapon from this group, she gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls. Additionally, she increases the bonus on attack and damage rolls when attacking from the weapon group chosen at 1st level by one to +2.

A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from her group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.

Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. The bonus to attack and damage on all known weapon groups increases by one. In addition, she may either expanding her base weapon training groups by learning a new group or select an advanced weapon training option.

Demanding Challenge: At 12th level, whenever a fighter declares a challenge, her target must pay attention to the threat she poses. As long as the target is within the threatened area of the cavalier, it takes a –2 penalty to its AC from attacks made by anyone other than the cavalier.

Weapon Mastery: At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.

For perspective on Combat Stamina, here is the list of bonuses given when I converted an NPC from Hell's Vengence, the HellKnight Zara Orcelani, into this system. I am C&Ping it from the PCGen pdf output; I will fully say that I don't know if Combat Stamina is feasible if you don't have something electronic checking things out for you.

Spoiler:

Missile Shield: As long as you have at least 1 stamina point in your stamina pool, you can use this feat with a buckler. You can spend 5 stamina points to deflect an arrow even while you're flat-footed. You must still be aware of the attack.

Saving Shield: When you use this feat, you can spend 2 stamina points to increase the shield bonus granted to your ally by an amount equal to the enhancement bonus of the shield you are using.

Shield Focus: When an attack is made against you while you are using a shield, you can spend up to 2 stamina points. If you do, the shield's bonus to AC against that attack increases by an amount equal to the number of stamina points you spent.

Weapon Focus: Once per round, you can spend 2 stamina points to gain your Weapon Focus bonus on attack rolls with a weapon with which you don't have Weapon Focus. This bonus lasts until the start of your next turn.

Weapon Specialization: Once per round, you can spend 2 stamina points to gain your Weapon Specialization bonus on damage rolls with a weapon with which you don't have Weapon Specialization. This bonus lasts until the start of your next turn.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

... really, that's it.

I've been playing around with varying houserules to try to recreate what I see from the big major genres in "television" fantasy (LotR, CotT, GoT). The general idea I've seen is that those are all "low level" settings. I would argue that the characters are actually closer to midlevel - spellcasting is simply not as powerful and it is a low magic world. So it's not that the characters in Game of Thrones are level six or so (umm... Melisandre casts Raise Dead and Summon Monster VI, while Ja'qen seems to be at least 10th level if not 12th between Assassinate and Master Disguise), but that magic isn't quite as powerful.

The exact details of how the limiting occurs is irrelevant for the question. The question is one of why there is such an immediate reaction to limiting spellcasters in the first place.

So... wassupwitdat?


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Technically, it addressed a custom world where magic and science are at odds in a way that weakened dimensional barriers... but it grew into my attempt to address martial caster disparity.

I'm looking for a critique so I can be proactive with my game. I'm running my players through Hell's Vengeance, converting the game as I go. I've gotten PCs through 4th level and NPCs through 8th; things have been fine thus far, but I am curious as to what challenges I may need to address once I get into the third book in the series.

So, with that said, the modifications for the world of Tycon, TyFinder, can be found here. Thanks in advance for any insight!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Arbane the Terrible wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

For anyone familiar with pre-3.0 D&D, the problem with the fighter is that it is no longer the easy, basic class that it was in earlier D&D baselines. Starting with D&D 3.0, the player of a Fighter needs to be knowledgeable about available feats, which is a non-trivial task for a novice to the game. The archetypes, advanced armor trainings, and advanced weapon trainings introduced in Pathfinder make the task of building a fighter character even harder.

Totally true. I like the basic idea behind feats, but most of them end up being useless shovelware, and even the good ones a Fighter would like to have end up with entirely too many prerequisites... so that Fighters can't get them too easily.

I agree. I think the idea was that the bonus feats would be all of the class features a fighter would need, except that most feats aren't as powerful as a class feature.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
necromental wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
JAMRenaissance wrote:

Moving from fluff to mechanics, there's a lot of ways to houserule that. I have a whole set of Fighter mods, but the short of it is that there are a lot of subsystems that I think would be helpful to give the Fighter. Seriously - at level one, a Cavalier gets a mount, order, tactician, and the challenge ability. Did I mention he gets an entire horse? You know what the Fighter gets? A bonus Feat. One. They should, maybe, get a bit more.

What counts as that "more" is the line in the sand we're dealing with.

I've often wondered if the cavalier, samurai, and fighter shouldn't all just be one class called the "soldier". Conceptually, it fits; a tough, professional warrior who knows how to fight solo or lead a group and wins the day without using use any type of magical ability. Gestalt them all together and it'd address some of the issues with skill points, saves, and out of combat utility. It'd require some tweaking here and there, but it could work.
I agree with this, although my ideas also swallow swashbuckler, gunslinger and the brawler, too.

Great minds. Here are my house rule adjustments to the Fighter (and Gunslinger, Swashbuckler, and Samurai). The Monk and Rogue similarly have the Ninja/Slayer and Brawler (respectively) "rolled up" inside of them. I described a lot of my changes in terms of how they address martial-caster disparity, but as I've participated in these threads, I think what I was trying to create with the house rules was what I see of fantasy on TV (LoTR, GoT, Clash of the Titans).

Spoiler:

Fighter
* The Fighter gains d12 HD rather than d10.
* Gains a “Fighter’s Order” reflecting how the fighter’s personality affects her combat style which acts as the Order and Challenge features of the Samurai and one of either Armor Training I or Weapon Training at 1st level, and the Demanding Challenge feature of the Samurai at 12th level.
* Gains Combat Stamina instead of her 4th level bonus feat.
* The Martial Master archetype is “baked in”, giving the Fighter Martial Flexibility starting at 3rd level, replacing Armor Training rather than Weapon Training.
* The fighter has access to the Advanced Weapon Training options from the Weapon Master’s Handbook or the Advanced Armor Training of the Armor Master's Handbook as options for the Weapon Training slots. They must have Armor Training in some type of armor to take an advanced armor option, or Weapon Training in some sort of weapon in order to take an advanced weapon option.
Key Archetypes include:
* Gunslinger
* * Gains all class features at the standard levels
* * Gains full complement of fighter bonus feats.
* * Gains Combat Stamina at 4th level
* * Gains d12 HD
* * Grit is now calculated as ½ of the gunslinger level + the gunslinger’s Wisdom modifier at the start of the day.
Samurai
* * Gains all class features except for mount and banner at the standard levels.
* * Gains full complement of fighter bonus feats.
* * Gains Combat Stamina at 4th level.
* * Gains the Weapon Training of a Fighter at 5th level (though not the 1st level one, as that is replaced by Resolve).
* * Gains d12 HD
Swashbuckler
* * Gains all class features at the standard levels
* * Gains full complement of fighter bonus feats.
* * Gains Combat Stamina at 4th level
* * Gains d12 HD
* * Panache is now calculated as ½ of the swashbuckler level + the swashbuckler’s Charisma modifier at the start of the day.

The Fighter’s modifications meant to address martial-caster discrepancy by increasing the hit die of the fighter and providing the fighter with specific advantages unique to her via combat stamina and the Fighter’s Order. Challenge is thematically appropriate for a fighter. While orders are not actual groups, the abilities of the order will allow for the type of choices allowed in, say, a bloodline or a mystery. The first level Armor/Weapon training further elaborates on the Fighter's general style (though nothing stops them from taking the opposite training at 5th). In addition, the Fighter’s Order brings the 1st level abilities of a Fighter in line with those of a Cavalier or Samurai. Finally, “baking in” the Martial Master archetype gives the fighter a tremendous number of options to deal with specific combat situations, particularly factoring in the idea of applying Combat Stamina bonuses to the Martial Master feats.

In the cases of grit and panache, additional resources allow the PCs to reach superhuman levels more often, which is key to keeping up with magical brethren.


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I really went back and re-read the argument that Warriot Spirit doesn't fit the flavor of a Fighter and would like to add a few revised thoughts:

First, I'll apologize to anyone that thought me saying that Warrior Spirit doesn't fit in the for the Fighter was me saying it is WrongBadFun. It is closer to "I think it's a great solution from a mechanics viewpoint, but I don't follow how someone with the concept they are giving us would have this. Why not just let him shoot lightning bolts?". I think some of this is a function of shifting a line in the sand, so perhaps it would be better if we instead explained the line.

The characters that I think of as "Fighters" almost never have an intrinisically "magical" ability. They often have two things going for them, in terms of dealing with the impossible:

(1) The villians often have a mundane way of being defeated despite the inredible magical power of the creature, and

(2) The hero gets The One Weapon that allows them to defeat the baddies.

Using the movie "Clash of the Titans", Perseus doesn't overpower Medusa, but outsmarts her using his shield as a mirror, and then uses her head as The One True Weapon to beat the Kraken.

These ideas are not a function of the gameset. They are a function of the story. Having mundanes in your group doesn't mean you can't solve the problems; it means the GM has to make the story modifications needed in order to empower the mundane to deal with the problem.

The Magus, in this instance, doesn't "need" Medusa's head as much as the Fighter.

Still, though, we're talking a line in the sand in terms of what you should be able to do. Perseus was clearly more than Some Guy (Celestial Eldritch Heritage?). So, in order to explain my line in the sand, I have to explain a quick computer science concept.

A subclass in programming is a more specific example of a concept (class). A car may be a class (concept), and a drag racing car would be the subclass. You can define something in the computer to think of itself as one thing but behave as the other; I can create an object that thinks it is a car, but is really a drag racing car. So, it wouldn't be able to use nitroglycerin (drag racing cars do that, and it thinks it is a car), but if you put your foot on the gas, it moves forward like a sports car (driving is something a car can do, but it's built as a drag racing car, so it drives like a drag racing car). The common example I use is Clark Kent from Smallville - he thinks of himself as a human, so he can't fly (or, more specifically, doesn't know that he has the capacity to do so), but the second he starts running, it's at superspeed.

That is how I see the mundane classes. They are human (elf, dwarf, tiefling, aasimar, etc..), but they can do the things humans do to amazing levels (John Henry putting spikes in the train). So, does the Fighter leaping 30' seem like it's "too far"? No. Be able to damage anything with his sword? Cool.

Make the sword catch fire? OK... now you lost me.

Moving from fluff to mechanics, there's a lot of ways to houserule that. I have a whole set of Fighter mods, but the short of it is that there are a lot of subsystems that I think would be helpful to give the Fighter. Seriously - at level one, a Cavalier gets a mount, order, tactician, and the challenge ability. Did I mention he gets an entire horse? You know what the Fighter gets? A bonus Feat. One. They should, maybe, get a bit more.

What counts as that "more" is the line in the sand we're dealing with.

Here's the latest thing I've been rolling around in my head - what if the Fighter got an ability similar to Judgement, except mundane in nature (damage resistance becomes "She just never stops coming) and not allowing the Healing and Piercing judgements? It still fits the concept ("He's so bad he ran THROUGH the fire!") without moving too far into the fantastic?

In any case, though, I do want to stress that I see this totally as moving a line in the sand.


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In re: Lawful means follow every rule, doesn't that kill any Lawful Evil character as a threat?

Your GM and the players obviously have to agree on the definitions of any terms. I will cite that, as a GM, I rule Lawful vs Chaotic on a discipline spectrum. As a comic book fan, I use Lex Luthor as my example of Lawful Evil, with the Joker as Chaotic Evil. Both may create incredibly damaging plans, but the Joker is more likely to randomly shoot his underling.

The Mafia is a lawful organization, after all...


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I'm playing Hell's Vengeance right now, and enjoying it a LOT more than I thought I would. Personally, as a GM, it is a fun change of place to regularly play the "good guys".

We have a few things going for us:

(1) The players are mostly related (two of my nieces, a nephew, my wife/their aunt, and a close family friend). I think this would be INCREDIBLY difficult with strangers.

(2) Everyone has a personal, in-character hook to at least one character, if not more. The nieces and nephew are all siblings that love each other in-character. The fourth character is a long-time ally of each of the three siblings separately, and the fifth is their gadget guy that shares a commonality with one of the siblings (they bond as an aasimar and tiefling in an area with no other outsider-based characters).

(3) We are all cool with a fairly open definition of "evil". "Evil", for this campaign, is willingness to force your view on for personal reasons. Almost any individual action, save necromancy, can theoretically be argued as "good" if done for the right reason - we call slavery in the name of repaying a debt to society "jail". Necromancy is the only exception, since forcing a soul that has passed from the beyond into your service will ALWAYS be considered a "personal reason". That isn't to say that this is the only way, but it is to say that everyone is explicit on the system walking into things.

Even then, we did take a session and a half or so establishing that Evil Stupid is not an alignment. You don't smart off to your boss when you are the equivalent of the hyenas in The Lion King. After that, though... this has been great.


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I have a new guide, this one to Hybrid Archetypes (combining multiple archetypes for a new concept) for the Monk.

JAM'S Hybrid Archetype Guide: The Monk

Discussion Thread


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Hey all,

My newest guide is now ready for public consumption. I wrote the Master of Many Styles Guide to prepare for its usage in the Hybrid Archetyping Guide. Basically, no single archetype can raise up a Monk as much as Zen Archer... but perhaps if we combine two or three....

So here it is: JAM’s Hybrid Archetype Guide: The Monk

Give me thoughts! Thanks!


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I'm now comfortable with calling this a "Version 1.0" of the guide. I now know in the future to finish my guide and THEN start talking about it.

Here is The Beginner's Basics To The Master Of Many Styles.


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I will certainly credit this! Thanks!


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
JAMRenaissance wrote:
Bloody Ghost Monk (Hungry Ghost/Master of Many Styles)

Cool, like Quinngong Drunken Master of Many Styles.

It reminds me of a movie I saw: Interview with the Army of the 12 Vampire Monkeys of Darkness.

Thanks, though admittedly I've been second-guessing the Feat order ever since I hit "Submit Post". The thought is to use Panther Style and Snake Style to generate attacks of opportunity that trigger Boar Style's Flesh Tear for extra damage. The more times you do extra damage, the more likely you'll drop the opponent to 0 and be able to steal their ki.

With that in mind... I'm still second guessing the order of the Feats.

This does also illustrate another aspect of MoMS; it is INCREDIBLY easier to pull off if you are Human. This example is the exact example of being able to pull off two Styles at Level One, since a human CAN take Panther Style at first level as a regular Feat instead of as a bonus Feat, thus allowing you to take Boar Style first level and Snake Style second level as bonuses.


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I have to say that I was very upset by recent changes to the Master of Many Styles description. I really enjoyed being able to take Snake Fang after only 2 levels in MOMS Monk, and I felt very discourged at the idea of playing another one.

The Bonus Feats only allow you to take more Style Feats, and only the initial Feat in each Style Feat Tree is actually a Style Feat.

I hope you can find some cool MOMS builds and make a believer out of me again.

If you want something like that, I'm probably going to disappoint you. The scenario you are describing is the exact scenario that the errata sought to avoid. There will be no more quick fixes... no more Pummeling Charge at Level 2.

On the other hand, the Hybrid Archetype I was working on that inspired me to do this analysis was an idea I call the Bloody Ghost Monk, a Hungry Ghost / Master of Many Styles (Boar, Panther, Snake) that has a recommended substitution of Truestrike and Scorching Ray for Slow Fall and High Jump. It really comes online at Level 9, when Snake Fang kicks in, but the idea is to use a combination of attacks of opportunity and retributive strikes to cause flesh tears and bleed damage. This is to help make the Monk the cause behind a killing blow, which can then be used to get more ki.

I dunno about the efficiency of the mechanics, but I think the idea is cool.

The Mortonator wrote:

Ah, no, I had no heard about the rules change.

Not that I believe that precludes taking MoMS as a dip. It's obviously much worse early game, but getting a second style is always nice.

Hmmm... that's true. Not a lot of ways to get multiple Styles, and for a Brawler a single level that lets them have, say, Pummeling and Jabbing styles would be pretty darned handy.


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OK... I've been working to finish the Master of Many Styles Guide. Not that it is close to done, but I've at least got the Styles all reviewed. The thread for the alpha version can be found here; I would really love thoughts, because I don't feel nearly as comfortable with my Style Reviews as I did the archetype mods.


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I did some work for Icy Turbo's Guide to picking archetypes (the thread for which can be found right here), specifically the Monk Archetypes. As part of that, I began trying to review the Master of Many Styles, and realized that the archetype is so different and so mechanics-heavy that it may need its own seperate guide.

I can't say that I've done a full pass at it, because there are a lot of idiosyncrasies to the archetype. Specifically, in order to max out the power of the archetype, you need to be able to go deeply into the Feat Chains for the Styles, and balancing prerequisites and the like is not a small thing.

I have made it through a first pass of rating the various styles in specific reference to how well they fit as part of the Master of Many Styles. It is NOT a formal Style Guide per se, as the MoMS has a number of quirks that make certain styles better for it than any other character. The biggest example is something like Jabbing Style, which is a powerful Style on its own, but is less effective for a MoMS due to the lack of Flurry of Blows.

The first pass at the Style Ratings and the like can be found right here. My next task is analyzing how best to implement the style. For example,

  • Is it worth it to go for two Styles at Level One, particularly when the only Styles that one can take this way at first level are Snapping Turtle Style, Panther Style (if human), Cudgeler Style (if human), and Crane Style (if human)?
  • Which styles have prerequisites that are commonly shared, thus making it easier to go up the Feat Chain?
  • Which Styles have complementary abilities, generalizing the possible things the Style can do as Offensive To-Hit, Offensive Damage, Additional Attacks, Additional Defense, and Other Bonuses (such as Marid Style's increased Reach, or Overslug Styles 10' steps)?

What are people's thoughts on the Style Ratings? Are these good questions to take the time to analyze? Is there anything else I should think of? Any thoughts on formatting (as it is kind of in "brain dump" mode right now).


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

With respect to where to put the Monk Guide, it looks like it really needs to be its own guide, with references to it from the Monk section of the archetype guide. In addition, Master of Many Styles may need its own sub-guide, and as more archetypes compatible with Unchained Monk come out (what are we at now, 2? -- and that doesn't count Qinggong, which is rolled into Unchained Monk), Unchained Monk will need its own guide.

The deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole I go, the more I see the need for separate things. It's GOING to be too big; I only analyzed about half of the available styles thus far, sticking to the "Expanded Core". Last year's Weapon Master Handbook and Dirty Tactics Toolkit added a lot to the Styles, and some of the race-based Styles are pretty awesome. Given that there's some stuff I'd like to add, I'm thinking it is a good idea to separate those out.

UnArcaneElection wrote:


JAMRenaissance wrote:

{. . .}

Wouldn't natural weapons be a really niche thing for a Monk? I haven't done that sort of analysis.

It depends upon who you are.. For races like Changelings and Tengu and a subset of Tieflings and Half-Orcs, this could be a big deal.

The question I keep finding myself asking, and this goes along with the Stunning Fist vs Touch of Serenity idea as well, is that I'm hesitant to put more situation-specific stuff in a general description. Do we want to change the rating for something if it only works with specific races, 3/4s of which aren't in the Core book?

What I'm thinking is to remove the archetype combination information and replace that with a "Recommended Usage" section of some sort. That way, we can say for everything that removes Flurry of Blows "Synergizes with natural weapons" or for Stunning Fist "Most effective against low-FORT opponents"?

Finally, in terms of the +2/-2 thing... I'd prefer someone else re-rate. :) With that in mind, would we say that the only archetypes that would really get "good" rating are Zen Archer, Tetori, and Sohei? Sensei and Master of Many Styles are good, but I question if they stand alone as well.


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Alex Mack wrote:


You've gotten plenty of feedback on that here and I pointed out that assigning +2 Power to !10! different Archetypes is not feasible.

Others have suggested that only Zen Archer and Qinggong deserve a +2 (an assessment I personally agree with).

Let me stop you right there. There are 27 Monk archetypes, not counting Qinggong. You just said it would be fine if I kept it at two archetypes getting a +2 Power, which is a lot less than 20%. So the problem isn't that I'm skewing the amounts; it's that I'm skewing the amounts in a way that you don't agree with. This is a subjective process; we won't necessarily agree.

Alex Mack wrote:


I also criticized the rating of a specific Archetype. Your response did not necessarily inspire me to continue discussing with you tbh.

Same thing here. I value the ability to deal with a conventional frontline situation more than the ability to deal with what I'd deem a niche one. The biggest problem with the Monk is that, even compared to other "mundanes", it's not very effective at melee combat. Going from needing a Fort Save to needing a Will Save is a huge boost in power in that paradigm. You happen to subscribe to a different one.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Alex Mack wrote:
Others have suggested that only Zen Archer and Qinggong deserve a +2 (an assessment I personally agree with).

I think a lot of those monk +2s could easily be +1s and still convey a lot of the same information (a la "this is a good archetype.")

So now we're okay with a bell curve, at least in concept?

Guys, I think we're eyeballing a situation and then wondering why we're not seeing the same things. We may not have the same vision, or at the very least I may not. Here's what I think: If someone else is cool with redoing the ratings specifying some number as the "best" archetypes besides Zen Archer, I can integrate them into what I have and redo the recommended archetype combinations based on the "best" list. I'm really not that attached to the numbers there. The numbers I have make sense to me, but my vision isn't necessarily everyone else's. Moreover, I may have been shortchanging things with my list of recommended combos; I actually think there's some really good stuff to be mined from the "lesser" archetypes.

That brings me to where I personally want to go next. I really don't like the level of system mastery needed to make the Monk work. I don't know if this guide would be a good place to do this or if the concept is one that has evolved beyond the original archetype guide, but I think one thing that can be done is putting the archetype combos into an easy format that people can easily replicate and follow. I'm thinking of calling the idea Hybrid Archetypes. They will be a combination of archetypes formatted together in a manner that is thematically consistent while still being at the least more viable than the original Monk. As well, a few recommendations can be included, specifically for Qinggong substitutions, Master of Many Styles Feat progressions, and just general helpful hints. Admittedly, the first one may not be the MOST effective, but I do think it has a fun feel to it. The first couple use archetypes that I previously thought I'd find no use for. Shows how much I know, and how much it may help to have someone else take a look at things.

Wrestler (Kata Master / Tetori)

Spoiler:

Designed as a fighting style that could be practiced while under the guard of enemy authorities, the Wrestler lulls her foe into believing her abilities are not real. To their detriment, they find that the Wrestler can back up her showy flair with an assortment of devastating holds and hindering strikes. If Jackie Chan is the prototypical Kata Master, Brock Lesnar is the prototypical Wrestler - seemingly fake, but very, VERY real.

Bonus Feat

A wrestler gains the following bonus feats: 1st level—Improved Grapple, 2nd level—Stunning Pin, 6th level—Greater Grapple, 10th level—Pinning Knockout, 14th level—Chokehold, 18th level—Neckbreaker.

These feats replace a monk’s normal bonus feats.

Panache

At 1st level, a wrestler gains the swashbuckler's panache class ability. At the start of each day, a wrestler gains a number of panache points equal to her Charisma bonus (minimum 1). Her panache goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than his Charisma bonus (minimum 1). A wrestler gains the swashbuckler's derring-do and dodging panache opportune parry and riposte deeds. A wrestler can use an unarmed strike or monk special weapon in place of a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon for granted swashbuckler class features and deeds.
This ability replaces stunning fist.

Graceful Grappler (Ex)

A wrestler uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine CMB and CMD for grappling. At 4th level, he suffers no penalties on attack rolls, can make attacks of opportunity while grappling, and retains his Dexterity bonus to AC when pinning an opponent or when grappled. At 8th level, a wrestler gains the grab special attack when using unarmed strikes, and can use this ability against creatures his own size or smaller by spending 1 point from his ki pool, or against larger creatures by spending 2 points from his ki pool. At 15th level, a wrestler gains the constrict special attack, inflicting his unarmed strike damage on any successful grapple check.

This ability replaces flurry of blows.

Menacing Swordplay (Ex)

At 3rd level, a wrestler gains the swashbuckler's menacing swordplay deed.

This ability replaces still mind.

Ki Pool (Su)

At 4th level, a wrestler can treat ki points as panache points for any swashbuckler deed gained through this archetype. This ability modifies ki pool.

Counter-Grapple (Ex)

At 4th level, a wrestler wrestler may make an attack of opportunity against a creature attempting to grapple him. This ability does not allow the wrestler to make an attack of opportunity against a creature with the Greater Grapple feat. At 6th level, he may use counter-grapple even if his attacker has concealment or total concealment, at 8th level even if he is flat-footed, and at 10th level even if his attacker has exceptional reach.

This ability replaces slow fall.

Break Free (Ex)

At 5th level, a wrestler adds his monk level on combat maneuver or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple. If a wrestler fails a save against an effect that causes him to become entangled, paralyzed, slowed, or staggered, he may spend 1 point from his ki pool as an immediate action to attempt a new save.

This ability replaces high jump.

Targeted Strike (Ex)

At 7th level, a wrestler gains the swashbuckler's targeted strike deed.

This ability replaces wholeness of body.

Inescapable Grasp (Su)

At 9th level, a wrestler can spend 1 point from his ki pool to suppress his opponents’ freedom of movement and magical bonuses to Escape Artist or on checks to escape a grapple. At 13th level, this ability also duplicates the effect of dimensional anchor. At 17th level, the wrestler’s unarmed strike gains the ghost touch special ability, and an incorporeal creature that he strikes gains the grappled condition (Reflex negates, DC 10 + 1/2 the wrestler’s level + his Wisdom modifier). Inescapable grasp is a swift action and lasts until the beginning of the wrestler’s next turn.

This ability replaces abundant step, improved evasion, timeless body, and tongue of the sun and moon.

Form Lock (Su)

At 13th level, a wrestler can negate a polymorph effect by touch with a Wisdom check, adding a bonus equal to his monk level, against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the effect (or HD of the creature, for supernatural polymorph effects). This is a standard action requiring 2 points from the wrestler’s ki pool, or an immediate action if a creature the wrestler is grappling attempts to use a polymorph effect.

This ability replaces diamond soul.

Dizzying Defense (Ex)

At 15th level, a wrestler gains the dizzying defense swashbuckler deed.

This ability replaces quivering palm.

Iron Body (Su)

At 19th level, as a move action, a wrestler can make his tissues ultra-dense for 1 minute as the iron body spell by spending 3 points from his ki pool.

This ability replaces empty body.

Potential Qinggong Substitutions and Recommendations: Diamond Body, Quivering Palm, Perfect Self. Restoration, Heroic Recovery, and Discordant Blast are thematic recommendations.

Other Notes: This Hybrid Archetype does not necessarily require a high CHA. Recall that you are always given a minimum of 1 Panache and, more importantly, you can spend Ki as Panache once you gain your Ki Pool.

Weapon Master(Manuever Master / Weapon Adept)

Spoiler:

The Weapon Master takes her connection to her weapons to the next level, switching between devastating strikes and complex maneuvers to confound and defeat her opponents. Those foolish enough to face a Weapon Master often find themselves weaponless, fallen, or both before being pummelled into unconsciousness.

Bonus Feat

In addition to normal monk bonus feats, a weapon master may select any Improved combat maneuver feat (such as Improved Overrun) as a bonus feat.

At 6th level and above, he may select any Greater combat maneuver feat (such as Greater Grapple) as a bonus feat.

At 10th level and above, he may select any maneuver Strike feat (such as Tripping Strike) as a bonus feat.

Perfect Strike (Ex)

At 1st level, a weapon master gains Perfect Strike as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 10th level, the monk can roll his attack roll three times and take the higher result. If one of these rolls is a critical threat, he can choose which one of his other two rolls to use as his confirmation roll.

This ability replaces stunning fist.

Flurry of Maneuvers (Ex)

At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a weapon master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The weapon master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.

At 8th level, a weapon master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks.

At 15th level, a weapon master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks.

A weapon master loses this ability when wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load.

This ability replaces flurry of blows.

Way of the Weapon Master (Ex)

At 2nd level, a weapon master gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat with one of his monk weapons. At 6th level, the monk gains Weapon Specialization with the same weapon as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

This ability replaces evasion.

Maneuver Defense (Ex)

At 3rd level, if a weapon master has an Improved combat maneuver feat, any creature attempting that maneuver against the weapon master provokes an attack of opportunity, even if it would not normally do so.
This ability replaces still mind.

Reliable Maneuver (Ex)

At 4th level, as a swift action, a weapon master may spend 1 point from his ki pool before attempting a combat maneuver. He can roll his combat maneuver check for that maneuver twice and use the better result.
This ability replaces slow fall.

Meditative Maneuver (Ex)

At 5th level, as a swift action, a weapon master can add his Wisdom modifier on any combat maneuver check he makes before the beginning of his next turn. He must choose which combat maneuver check to grant the bonus to before making the combat maneuver check.
This ability replaces purity of body.

Evasion (Ex)

At 9th level, the monk gains evasion.

This ability replaces improved evasion.

Sweeping Maneuver (Ex)

At 11th level, a weapon master can make two combat maneuvers as a standard action, as long as neither maneuver requires the weapon master to move. He may perform two identical maneuvers against two adjacent enemies, or he may perform two different combat maneuvers against the same target.
This ability replaces diamond body.

Whirlwind Maneuver (Ex)

At 15th level, once per day as a full-round action, a weapon master can attempt a single combat maneuver against every opponent he threatens, as long as the combat maneuver does not require movement. He makes a single combat maneuver check, and it applies to all targets.
This ability replaces quivering palm.

Uncanny Initiative (Ex)

At 17th level, a weapon master does not need to roll for initiative. He always treats his initiative roll as if it resulted in any number of his choosing (from 1 to 20).

This ability replaces timeless body.

Pure Power

At 20th level, a weapon master forsakes the ideals of the perfect self to become a bastion of the physical and mental virtues monks hold dear. The monk gains a +2 bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom.

This ability replaces perfect self.

Potential Qinggong Substitutions and Recommendations: High Jump, Wholeness of Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Empty Body.

Other Notes: The Kama (Trip), Nunchuku (Disarm), and Sai (Disarm) will be your weapons of choice. Characters could focus on one weapon and maneuver, or carry two weapons (Kama/Nunchuku or Kama/Sai) and invest feats in both associated maneuvers.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Wow, this could morph into a whole new Monk guide (and that's not even getting to Unchained Monk yet). Maybe even a guide specific to Master of Many Styles, which looks like it is needed (and I wonder if Unchained Monk will ever get an equivalent archetype, the way it rolls in Qinggong).

One other note I would put in is that if you have Natural Weapons, archetypes like Master of Many Styles that trade out Flurry of Blows get better, since you cannot use Natural Attacks with Flurry of Blows unless you invest in Weapon Focus ({your type of Natural Attack, just 1 type at a time}) and Feral Combat Training ({your type of Natural Attack, just 1 type at a time}), which is a substantial feat tax even if you have just 1 type of Natural Attack and gets prohibitive if you have more than 1 type of Natural Attack (each one needing its tax of 2 feats to be made usable with Flurry of Blows).

A Monk requires a sickening level of System Mastery in order to create something thematically workable while being mechanically efficient. I hope that the stuff I'm doing actually helps people.

Wouldn't natural weapons be a really niche thing for a Monk? I haven't done that sort of analysis.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I made a mistake above; the Master of Many Styles and Sohei are NOT compatible, as each modifies the Bonus Feats. My bad.

Here are a few more sample archetype combos for the Monk.

The Bodyguard: Hamatulasu Master/Monk of the Healing Hand/Monk of the Iron Mountain
This is the classic #2 Bad Guy, capable of healing or even bring her boss back to life. Physically tough herself, using Hamatulatsu for offense and the combination of healing, raising dead, and restoration to keep her boss/client/employer in the game.

Spoiler:


  • Class Skills as Monk
  • Weapon Proficiencies as Monk 
  • Lvl 1: Hamatulatsu Bonus Feat (Dodge rec.), Stunning Fist, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike
  • Lvl 2: Hamatulatsu Bonus Feat (Weapon Focus – Unarmed rec.), Iron Monk (Toughness, +1AC)
  • Lvl 3: Manuever Training, Still Mind
  • Lvl 4: Stunning Fist (shaken), Ki Pool (w/ ki for extra SF), Bastion Stance (cannot be prone or moved)
  • Lvl 5: Infernal Resilience (immune to pain, +2 to conditions), Iron Limb Defense (+2 to AC)
  • Lvl 6: Hamatulatsu Bonus Feat (Hamatulatsu rec.)
  • Lvl 7: Ancient Healing Hand (ki to heal)
  • Lvl 8:Stunning Fist (nonlethal bleed)
  • Lvl 9: Adamantine Monk (DR 1/-)
  • Lvl 10: Hamatulatsu Bonus Feat (Impaling Critical rec.)
  • Lvl 11: Ki Sacrifice (Raise Dead)
  • Lvl 12: Stunning Fist (frightened), Adamantine Monk (DR 2/-), Abundant Step
  • Lvl 13: Diamond Soul Restoration Recommended
  • Lvl 14: Hamatulatsu Bonus Feat (Improved Impaling Critical rec.)
  • Lvl 15: Ki Sacrifice (Resurrection), Adamantine Monk (DR 3/-)
    Other Notes: Keeps AC Bonus and Unarmed Damage, and Fast Movement 

True Drunken Master:Drunken Master/Monk of the Four Winds/Sensei
The burden of wisdom is too much for some. She is still capable of using the very knowledge that drove her to drink to devastating effect. Though often of low STR, the Drunken Master ups her damage with Elemental Fists and Drunken Strength while aiding her teammates via Sensei abilities, Slowing Time, and linking everyone's minds.

Spoiler:


  • Class Skills as Monk plus Diplomacy, Linguistics, and all Knowledge
  • Weapon Proficiencies as Monk 
  • Lvl 1: Advice (Inspire Courage), Elemental Fist, Unarmed Strike
  • Lvl 2: Inspired Strike (WIS to hit)
  • Lvl 3: Drunken Ki (drink for ki), Advice (Inspire Confidence)
  • Lvl 4: Slow Fall Barkskin rec.
  • Lvl 5: Drunken Strength (ki for damage), High Jump
  • Lvl 6: Mystic Wisdom (Use ki pool class abilities on others)
  • Lvl 7: Wholeness of Body Gaseous Form rec.
  • Lvl 8:
  • Lvl 9: Advice (Inspire Greatness)
  • Lvl 10: Mystic Wisdom (Share non-ki-pool class abilities) 
  • Lvl 11: Drunken Courage (Immune to fear)
  • Lvl 12: Slow Time (6 ki for 3 standard actions)
  • Lvl 13: Drunken Resilency (DR 1/-)
  • Lvl 14: Mystic Wisdom (Share Diamond Abilities)
  • Lvl 15: Quivering Palm Battlefield Mindlink rec.
    Other Notes: Keeps AC Bonus and Unarmed Damage, Loses Fast Movement. Builds will often have a low STR, using WIS to hit and Drunken Strength / Elemental Fist for damage enhancement.

The Bleeding Ghost:Hungry Ghost Monk / Master of Many Styles
The Bleeding Ghost maximizes the usage of of his Hungry Ghost abilities by maximizing both potential attacks per turn via Two Weapon Fighting and Snake Fang, and damage with Jabbing Style and Boar Style. Snake Sidewind allows for confirmation of criticals via Sense Motive, giving more chances to steal ki. All Feats are taken to maximize Master of Many Styles.

Spoiler:


  • Class Skills as Monk, plus Handle Animal
  • Weapon Proficiencies : simple and martial weapons.
  • Lvl 1: MoMS Bonus Feat (Jabbing Style), Fuse Style, Unarmed Strike, Punishing Kick (pushes opponent)
  • Lvl 2: MoMS Bonus Feat (Snake Style; Snake/Jabbing possible), Evasion
  • Lvl 3: (Boar Style/Snake Style or Boar Style/Jabbing Style possible), Maneuver Training, Still Mind
  • Lvl 4: Slow Fall Truestrike rec.
  • Lvl 5: Steal Ki (regain ki from critical or 0 health), High Jump
  • Lvl 6: MoMS Bonus Feat (Wildcard; Boar Style/Boar Ferocity/Snake Style or Boar Style/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind, or either tree with Pummeling Style possible)
  • Lvl 7: Life Funnel (heal instead of taking ki) (Boar Style/Boar Ferocity/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind or either tree with Jabbing Style possible)
  • Lvl 8: (Boar Style/Boar Ferocity/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind/ Jabbing Style)
  • Lvl 9: Improved Evasion, (Boar Style/Boar Ferocity/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind/Snake Fang/ Jabbing Style or Boar Style/Boar Ferocity/Boar Shred/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind/ Jabbing Style)
  • Lvl 10: MoMS Bonus Feat (Wildcard; Full Boar Style/Snake Style Trees, plus Jabbing Style)
  • Lvl 11: Life From A Stone (Steal ki from any creature)
  • Lvl 12: Abundant Step
  • Lvl 13: Sipping Demon (gain temp hit points from attacks)
  • Lvl 14: MoMS Bonus Feat (Pummeling Style; can replace any tree listed above with Pummeling Style/Pummeling Charge by dropping highest Wildcard)
  • Lvl 15: Quivering Palm Cold Ice Strike rec.
    Other Notes: Keeps AC Bonus, Unarmed Damage, and Fast Movement. This archetype combo assumes Two Weapon Fighting is taken at Lvl 1, Boar Style at Lvl 3, Combat Reflexes at Lvl 5, Snake Sidewind at Lvl 7, and Boar Ferocity at Lvl 9


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Here is the latest run through on the Monk, adding in a section on Master of Many Styles and archetype compatibilities among the recommended archetypes.

Monk

Spoiler:

Drunken Master Power +2, Versatility 0: The ability to regain ki is incredibly, INCREDIBLY important, and Still Mind is NOTHING to lose in exchange for the ability to regain ki. The other replacements are side grades. but this one makes the archetype.Recommended Archetype Combinations: Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Lotus, Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Monk of the Four Winds/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Monk of the Four Winds/Sensei, Monk of the Lotus/Sensei, Serpent-Fire Adept, Weapon Adept

Far Strike Monk Dip Power +1, Dip Versatility -1, Power +1, Versatility -2: Congratulations! You are now a one trick distance pony without even getting the best distance trick (bows). The ability to get a lot of the distance attack Feats is nice, and the thought of throwing a flurry of pellet grenades is cool, but it's nowhere near worth it as a whole.

Hamatulasu Master  Dip Power +2, Dip Versatility 0, Power +2, Versatility +1: This is a huge upgrade to the weak Bonus Feats (Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Impaling Critical, and Improved Impaling Critical), plus having the option of trading out Feats for additional Stunning Fists can be useful depending on the build. You're given more options with your Stunning Fists and Ki usage with zero tradeoff. Finally, Infernal Resilience will undoubtedly come up more than Purity of Body. An almost pure upgrade to the Monk. Note that Hamatulasu is added to the list of potential bonus feats for ANY Monk, which is why it is not listed above.Recommended Archetype Combinations: Monk of the Healing Hand, Monk of the Iron Mountain

Harrow Warden  Dip Power 0, Dip Versatility +1, Power 0, Versatility +2: Idiot Strike's debuff is a huge increase in the versatility of a Stunning Fist, and Mute Hag Stance is a great debuff that not only does not allow a Will Save, but doesn't even require an action. Eclipse Strike will probably not come into play, but anything that lets a Monk make his enemies a bunny is a good thing. This is another "Pure Buff To The Monk" archetype.Recommended Archetype Combinations: Master of Many Styles

Hungry Ghost Monk  Dip Power 0, Dip Versatility +1, Power +1, Versatility +2: Punishing Kick is something of a sidegrade from Stunning Fist, but it does allow more options at first level. The real bonus is the ability to replenish your ki by stealing it from others. You trade the difficulties of regaining ki with the difficulties of being a bad person for stealing life force... which for some makes no difference. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Master of Many Styles, Monk of the Iron Mountain, Sensei

Karmic Monk Dip Power 1, Dip Versatility 0, Power 1, Versatility 2: Karmic Strike is a nice way of getting a small buff every time someone attacks you the first time. The real strength, though, is the ability to switch damage alignments to ignore DR, and to temporarily modify your character's alignment. The latter can be a huge bonus in the right build.

Kata Master Dip Power -1, Dip Versatility 1, Power -2, Versatility 0: RIP Opportune Parry and Riposte. That said, the combination of the available Swashbucker leaves some nice flavor. Unfortunately, this involves taking the most MAD character class and adding another important attribute(CHA). Good luck with that.

Ki Mystic  Power 0, Versatility 2: Ahhh... THAT'S the stuff. Free ki (and a level earlier), the ability to give allies re-rolls, a bonus to all knowledge skills, divination, AND it stacks with a number of other helpful archetypes. The latter is huge, as a combo of this with Sensei, Monk of the Four Winds, or Master of Many Styles ends up being pretty sweet.Recommended Archetype Combinations: Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Lotus, Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Monk of the Four Winds/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Monk of the Four Winds/Sensei, Serpent-Fire Adept

Manuever Master Dip Power 0, Dip Versatility 1: Another pure buff to the Bonus Feats. The extra manuever is actually somewhat underwhelming, as you can already substitute most of the more useful attacks for a manuever except for Grappling, and there are other ways to become good at that (see Tetori, below).

Martial Artist Power 1, Versatility -2: There aren't a lot of ways to make a Monk worse. Dropping ki to eliminate DR and give SLIGHT bonuses is one of those ways.

Master of Many Styles  Power 0, Versatility 2: The former Must-Have monk archetype is still decent post-buff, but requires a level of system mastery to get anything out of it. Your bonus feats are buffed to accept any first-level Combat Style Feat, and instead of Flurrying, you can have two styles going at once. Again, depending on the styles chosen, this is nice, but it is far from easy to make this work. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Drunken master/Monk of the Lotus, Drunken master/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Hungry Ghost Monk/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Ki Mystic/Monk of the Lotus, Ki Mystic/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Sohei

Master of Many Styles Recommendations:

The Master of Many Styles isn't the easiest of archetypes to use, but it is highly versatile. Your first two Bonus Feats must be spent on Style Feats, which are specifically defined as the FIRST Feat in a Style Tree. The 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th feats may be spent on a Style Feat, Elemental Fist, or a Wildcard Feat. The Wildcard Feats are the most interesting, as they let you sub in a higher feat in the Style Tree of any Style you are using as long as you meet the prerequisites. As you rise in level, you meet more prerequisites and have more options with your Wildcard feats.

Here are some examples:

Let's say someone wants to use the Crane and Snake Styles. Assume all skill requirements are met. Here is how this progression may look:


  • Lvl 1 Feat: Dodge
  • Lvl 1 Bonus: Crane Style
  • Lvl 2 Bonus: Snake Style
  • Lvl 5 Feat: Crane Wing
  • Lvl 6 Bonus: Wildcard Feat

When this Monk goes into her combined Crane/Snake Style, she may chose to have Crane Style/Crane Wing/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind. She cannot chose to add Crane Riposte yet, however, as she doesn't qualify for it yet. At level 7, she can choose between Crane Style/Crane Wing/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind and Crane Style/Crane Wing/Crane Riposte/Snake Style. At level 10, assuming all skill requirements are met and no other feats are invested, she may take her second Wildcard slot. Now her options are Crane Style/Crane Wing/Crane Riposte/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind, or Crane Style/Crane Wing/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind/Snake Fang, since she meets the prerequisites of every Feat in the chain.

As a second example, let's pretend we have a Crane/Snake/Panther combination monk. Her investment may look like this:


  • Lvl 1 Feat: Combat Reflexes
  • Lvl 1 Bonus: Crane Style
  • Lvl 2 Bonus: Snake Style
  • Lvl 3 Feat: Panther Style
  • Lvl 5 Feat: Dodge
  • Lvl 6 Feat: Wildcard Feat

From Lvls 3-7, the monk chooses any combination of two desired between Crane Style, Snake Style, and Panther Style. At level six, she may choose the second feat from any active slot to add to the style. At level 8, she may have all three going at once, choosing the second feat of any of the three at any given point as the Wildcard feat. Finally, at Level 10, if she takes a second Wildcard Feat, she can complete the entire chain of any of the three while having the two base styles going, or can have two of the second tier feats going along with the base of the third.

Styles with a fairly small number of Feat-based prerequisites and lower minimal level requirements become preferable in this system; you want to be able to Wildcard up the tree as quickly as possible for maximum benefit.

Here are the Style ratings. The style is listed with required Feats, minimum required level due to a Monk level requirement or a skill rank requirement and a short summary of the effects for each of the three feats in the tree. Note that Skill requirements are considered negligible for the purposes of this analysis; a monk gets enough skill points without investing in Intelligence to make any skill requirement fairly easy to meet.

+2 (No Feat Prerequisites, Wildcardable ASAP, good benefits)


  • Boar Style (Flesh tear 2d6 bonus damage when you hit twice) / Boar Ferocity (Lvl 6, Free Intimidate with flesh tear) / Boar Shred (Lvl 9 Demoralize as move, bleed with flesh tear)
  • Dragon Style (1.5 STR bonus on first hit) / Dragon Ferocity (Lvl 5, 1.5 STR bonus every hit, qualifies for Elemental Fist) / Dragon Roar (Lvl 8 concussive blast) (NOTE: archetypes that remove Stunning Fist should not take this style beyond Dragon Style)
  • Janni Style (Charge easier and smaller flanking penalty), Janni Tempest (Lvl 5, +4 to bull rush or trip after a hit w/ no AoO from target), Janni Rush (Lvl 8, double dice damage on charge)
  • Mantis Syle (+1 SF/day & +2 to DC of SF) / Mantis Wisdom (Lvl 6: Touch to remove SF; +2 to hit SF) / Mantis Torment (Lvl 9, +1 SF/day, 2 Sfs to Stagger and Fatigue) (NOTE: archetypes that remove Stunning Fist should not take this style)
  • Panther Style (Retaliatory Unarmed Strike on movement AoO) / Panther Claw (Combat Reflexes, Free action to retaliate WIS/day) / Panther Parry (Retaliatory Attacks go first, penalizes attacker if hits) (NOTE: This Style has no level-based prerequisites, which gave it a higher rating than normal)
  • Pummelling Style (Add all FoB damage before DR) / Pummeling Charge (Lvl 8, Allows FoB at end of charge) (NOTE: Pummeling Bully is NOT a prerequisite for Pummeling Charge)
  • Snapping Turtle Style (+1AC with free hand) / Snapping Turtle Clutch (Lvl 3 & Improved Grapple, free grapple when missed) / Snapping Turtle Shell (Lvl 5, +2 to AC with free hand) (NOTE: This was graded a level higher as the entire chain can be completed by Lvl 6)

+1 (Feat/High Prerequisites with good benefits and Wildcardable ASAP)

  • Crane Style (Dodge, -2/+3 AC Fighting defensively) / Crane Wing (Lvl 5, enhanced dodge bonus) / Crane Riposte (Lvl 7, -2/+4 AC and AoO on misses)
  • Jabbing Style (+1d6 with each successive hit) / Jabbing Dancer (Lvl 5 & Mobility, 5 ft step per hit) / Jabbing Master (Lvl 8, +2d6/+4d6 on successive hits)
  • Pummelling Style (Add all FoB damage before DR) / Pummeling Bully (Lvl 5, Imp Reposition & Imp. Trip, Free trip or reposition with FoB)
  • Snake Style (Immediate action to use Sense Motive as AC) / Snake Sidewind (Lvl 6, Sense Motive to confirm crits) / Snake Fang (Lvl 9 & Combat Reflexes, Snake Style misses allow 1-2 AoO)
  • Tiger Style (bleed damage with slashing attacks on crit) / Tiger Claw (Lvl 5, single attack bull rushes opp away), Tiger Pounce (Power Attack, Power Attack penalty to AC)

0 (Cheap but fairly useless)

  • Earth Child Style (+6 Dodge against Giants) / Earth Child Topple (Lvl 6 & Improved Trip, Trip Giants) / Earth Child Binder (Lvl 9 & Greater Trip, free stunning fist against prone giants)
  • Grabbing Style (Improved Grapple, Grab with one hand), Grabbing Drag (Lvl 4, Move targets movement rate), Grabbing Master (Lvl 8, Move and damage two opponents at once)

-1 (Feat/High Feat requisites with good benefits but not wildcardable ASAP )

  • Efreeti Style (Elemental Fist, fire damage on misses)/ Efreeti Stance (Lvl 9, victims catch fire), Efreeti Touch (Lvl 11, Cone of fire that catches victims on fire)
  • Shaitan Style (Elemental Fist, acid damage on misses)/ Efreeti Stance (Lvl 9, victims staggered), Efreeti Touch (Lvl 11, Acid column that staggers)
  • Marid Style (Elemental Fist, +5 feet reach with elemental fist) / Marid Spirit (Lvl 9, elemental fist entangles) / Marid Coldsnap (Lvl 11, 30' ice blast)

- 2 (not wildcardable with questionable benefits)

  • Djinni Style (Elemental Fist, +2 dodge bonus against AoO) / Djinni Spirit (Lvl 9 Deafens) / Djinni Spin (Lvl 11 self-based area attack)
  • Kirin Style (identify creature for +2 saves and AC against AoO) / Kirin Strike (Lvl 9, Swift action to add INT mod 2 damage) / Kirin Path (Lvl 12, Free movement when threatened)
  • Monkey Style (Reduce penalties for being prone) / Monkey Moves (Lvl 9 Climb bonuses and 5 ft step with two hits) / Monkey Shine (Lvl 11 Share space for combat bonuses)

Natural Synergies include:

  • Boar / Jabbing Style (extra damage on multiple hits)
  • Boar / Tiger Style (slashing damage and bleed attacks)
  • Grabbing / Snapping Turtle Style (Improved Grapple requirement)
  • Panther / Snake Style (Combat Reflexes requirement)
  • Efreeti / Shaitan / Marid / Djinni / Dragon Style (Elemental Fist Requirement / Ability to get Elemental Fist)


Monk of the Empty Hand Power 0, Versatility -2: Congratulations! You have now reduced your Monk to a one-trick pony, with that one trick being improvised weapons. This is similar to Far Strike Monk, except even less useful on a practical level.

Monk of the Four Winds  Dip Power 0, Dip Versatility 0, Power 2, Versatility 1: Stunning Fist gets replaced with a scalable damage bonus in a sidegrade. Slow Time's extra actions are nice, but are a severe downgrade from Abundant Step. The Aspects are nice, and replace an ability that isn't stellar.Recommended Archetype Combinations: Drunken master/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Drunken master/Sensei, Ki Mystic/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Ki Mystic/Sensei

Monk of the Healing Hand  Power 0, Versatility 1: Instead of healing yourself you can heal others. However, if you have to use this your party has done something terribly wrong. Ki Sacifice lets you bring people back from the dead, which is definitely a worthy trade off from Diamond Body and Quivering Palm. This is far from as helpful as Ki Mystic, but it stacks with a few other, stronger archetypes. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Hamatulatsu Master, Monk of the Iron Mountain, Sensei, Tetori

Monk of the Iron Mountain  Power 1, Versatility 0: Evasion, Improved Evasion, Slow Fall, and High Jump get replaced with passive defenses preventing tripping and undesired movement, damage resistance, and an AC bonus. Not bad. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Drunken Master/Master of Many Styles, Hungry Ghost Monk/Master of Many Styles, Ki Mystic/Master of Many Styles, Ki Mystic/Monk of the Four Winds

Monk of the Lotus  Dip Power 2 Versatility 0 Power 2 Versatility 2: If the Monk is on the front line, the thing s/he will want to Stunning Fist probably has a high Fort save. It also probably has a low Will Save, which makes Touch of Serenity a huge upgrade. An extended duration as you level up is gravy. As well, between Touch of Peace and Touch of Serenity, you can make your enemies into pets for almost weeks at a time with no save. Let's repeat that: you can make your enemies into pets for almost weeks at a time with no save. There is only one archetype option that is an upgrade to Abundant Step; this is it. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Drunken master/Master of Many Styles, Drunken master/Sensei, Ki Mystic/Master of Many Styles, Ki Mystic/Sensei

Monk of the Mantis Power 2 Versatility -2: Trade away those Bonus Feats for the ability to Sneak Attack with your Flurry. Yes please! The problem is that everything afterwards is a downgrade. Stunning Fist becomes less dependable as you level, so you are trading passive defense for additional effects on an iffy attack. It's simply not worth it.

Monk of the Seven WindsDip Power 2, Dip Versatility 0, Power 1 Versatility -1: Trading Stunning Fist for an additional attack with a blade is nice, if you have a dip build that is dependent on unarmed strikes. The bonuses to attack, damage, and AC from Sirocco Fury are in no way, shape, or form worth losing Abundant Step over.
Monk Vows As a whole, I can't recommend Monk Vows, as the reward:cost ratio is just too low. As well, remember that we want to sub out as many abilities as possible, and replacing Still Mind cuts you out of useful archetypes. With that said, if one were to consider taking a Monk Vow, Cleanliness, Peace, Poverty, and Truth seem to be the most bang for one's buck.

Qinggong Monk  Power 2 Versatility 2 to the fourth power: Let's be clear:
Every Monk is a Qinggong Monk.
If you don't like a class feature, you sub it out with one you do like. Here are some recommendations. 


  • Slow Fall and High Jump: Barkskin, Truestrike, Scorching Ray 
  • Wholeness of Body: Gaseous Form, Heroic Recovery, High Jump (if subbed out earlier), Remove Disease 
  • Diamond Body: Dragon's Breath (Note that nothing says you can't change the type of dragon with each usage, which does provide versatility), Discordant Blast (very few things are resistant to sound), Restoration, Ki Leech, Shadow Step 
  • Abundant Step: Shadow Walk 
  • Diamond Soul: Abundant Step (if subbed before or taken out of the archetype), Shadow Walk, Battlefield Mindlink, Diamond Body (if subbed or taken out of the archetype)(NOTE: You probably want to sub out Diamond Soul no matter what, depending on how strict your GM is in enforcing the Spell Resistance when you are willing. Anything from the Diamond Body list on up is probably sufficient for this substitution) 
  • Quivering Palm: Blood Crow Strike, Cloud Step (don't forget that you need a Slow Fall speed), Cold Ice Strike, Ki Shout, Sonic Thrust 
  • Timeless Body: Any of the Quivering Palm choices are appropriate, plus Strangling Hair 
  • Empty Body and Perfect Self: Nothing is really worth subbing out. 

Sensei  Power 1 Versatility 2: Wanna be Mr. Miyagi? You lose Fast Movement, Flurrying, and most of your bonus feats, but you gain bardic performance and the ability to confer other abilities onto your friends. The cherry on top is Wisdom to Hit, which makes this one of only two archetypes that successfully makes the Monk less MAD. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Drunken Master, Hungry Ghost Monk, Monk of the Healing Hand, Sohei, Ki Mystic/Monk of the Four Winds, Ki Mystic/Monk of the Lotus

Serpent-Fire Adept  Power 1 Versatility 2: You lose your Stunning Fist, Bonus Feats, High Jump, Slow Fall, and Wholeness of Body in order to gain Chakras giving scaling damage resistance, flight, a breath weapon that bypasses energy resistance, healing/condition removal, staggering opponents, and true seeing. Yes, this is worth it. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Drunken Master, Ki Mystic/Master of Many Styles

Sohei  Power 2 Versatility -1: You gain the ability to use all martial weapons and armor, can give a mount your monk abilities, and can use your ki to enhance your weapon. Why the negative Versatility? It costs eleven class abilities. If there is a second standalone archetype for a Monk besides Zen Archer, this is it. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Master of Many Styles, Sensei

Spirit MasterPower -1 Versatility -1: You gain a wide variety of abilities dealing with the incorpeal and minor manipulation of positive/negative energy. Nowhere near worth the sacrifice.

Terra Cotta Monk Just... no.

Tetori  Power 2 Versatility -1: Congratulations! You are now a one-trick pony... except Grappling is a good trick (and the second best one-trick pony Monk). Your feats are chosen for you, but all useful, and your abilities all sync well with grappling, with the grab ability, constrict ability, and the cancellation of magical methods of escape. Losing High Jump and Abundant Step are the only real negatives. This is another high-level archetype. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Monk of the Healing Hand

Weapon Adept  Dip Power: 2 Dip Versatility 0 Power 2 Versatility -1: Perfect Strike is a pure upgrade, trading a questionably useful ability for a useful one. Free Weapon Focus and Specialization is worth delaying Evasion and losing improved evasion. Uncanny Initiative is worth it and... well, no one ever makes it to the capstone anyway. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Drunken Master, Ki Mystic

Wildcat Power -2 Versatility -2: No amount of combat manuever bonuses are worth totally losing your ki pool. That is all.

Zen Archer Power 2 Versatility 0: Congratulations! You are a one trick pony with the single best trick available. It is a great trick and a lightning-fast Pony. Take the great stuff from Weapon Adept, tack on Feats all designed for your bow, add Wisdom to hit (making this the other less-MAD archetype), the ability to make attacks of opportunity, and a bunch of other goodies. This is the only archetype that raises the Monk up a Tier in power, and is the template for any other combinations of archetypes. 


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Particularly given that a LOT of your adjustments are Pathfinder Unchained stuff, I think you've made less modifications than you think. With that in mind, presentation is just as important as content. Handing a player a 13 page doc and saying "Here ya go" is very different from handing a half a page of changes that exist to your character.

I just added two players to a campaign that I am running which is fairly heavily modded. I first asked what kinds of characters they wanted. When they said "Alchemist and Hunter", I only then said "I rewrote alchemy, so check this out and let me know if you're sure". For the Hunter player, I didn't need to bother her with anything.

I think your mileage will go a lot more if you customized what you were presenting to only show the stuff that directly affects them, and then handing over the thirteen page doc if they want to know everything that was modified.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I like the critical hit/critical failure decks. It adds a fun variability that only minimally complicates things.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Hey guys,

Let's get this out of the way first - Casters are more powerful than Martials because Magic. There is no way around it; you are moving lines in the sand, but not changing anything.

So with that as the context (and the acceptance that trying to completely get rid of it is a fools' errand), does having a wide selection of magic items available increase or decrease the martial/caster disparity?

In two recent campaigns I played in both GMs outlawed Metamagic Rods. When asked why, there was an immediate "Too Powerful". In playing a Sorcerer, I began to to invest in some Metamagic feats, to which an experienced player (that didn't happen to know about the outlaw of MM Rods) immediately asked why I'd waste Feats on MetaMagic when I could just get a rod? The idea was that a fairly small amount of money could replace the Feat (a very precious resource), so why ever bother with the Feat? The extra effect, though, is that there is one less Feat a Wizard/Sorcerer needs, and THAT is really where the disparity plays out - Wizard and Sorcerers won't need to invest in MM Feats, so that clears the way to invest in something else.

Similarly, I run a comparatively low-magic campaign. The general guidelines I've given my players is "If it's over +1 or about 3000 gp, you have to either find it or build it yourself". To this, my Wizard player immediately asked "Will we have enough downtime to build", which I guaranteed there would be between adventures (and I think this is fair). To this, he invested in a few Crafting Feats and some specific spells that he'd want to use to build things...

... notice a pattern here? Resources that otherwise would go to other things are now having to be redistributed, because you can't just "buy your way" out of it.

I've actually seriously considered similarly lowering the availability of any magic item that can't easily be used by pure martials, including Wands. Why? In character, there are CONSIDERABLY fewer people that can use them, so it makes sense for a spell crafter looking to make money to make things that can be used by the most people, and there are a lot more Fighters than Sorcerers in my campaign. In general, if you can go "Why would you take <X>? You can just buy <Y item>", then I'm thinking <Y Item> needs to be something that you can build.

So I'd like some thoughts? How much is the disparity between Martials and Casters something that becomes "baked in" due to the items being available?

Quick side note on one of the more powerful spell options in my paradigm:

Spoiler:
I took over a world that a friend of mine designed. It was meant to be "broken", in that something happened when it was being created and certain elements aren't working right. Specifically, demons and devils (generic versions) have fairly easy portals to getting back and forth (and apparently Angels, given the number of Aasimar that appear), but otherdimensional travel otherwise doesn't work well. Practically speaking, teleportation anywhere more than a few feet becomes risky, with a big-bad teleporting at least a mile away from the PCs and pretty much being blown off as committing suicide due to how risky that kind of jump is. You're taking big chances at the upper limits of Dimension Door, and beyond that is suicidal.

Similarly, summoning spells don't work as well; whatever you summon must be indigenous to the environment you are in, as you're doing comparatively short range teleporting. Summoners, as a class, are not in the game.

This reduced the martial/caster disparity a LOT, and it was totally unintentional. losing the ability to call Something Else That Does Stuff For Me makes a big difference.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I think the point IS to cockblock the player, and that isn't necessarily a problem. I don't care what your Acrobatics check is, you can't use Acrobatics to Fly. Some things just AREN'T available.

With that said, I think this can be used to advance the plot. With a high check, I stress just how unusual it is that you DON'T know, and use that to shape the narrative. One of my players was an Inquisitor that specialized in interrogating people, but he came across a Rogue of equal level that had invested in lying (via Signature skills and the like). When he was unable to tell instantly if she was bluffing or not, I stressed that his roll was what let him know how strong of a personality he was dealing with, because 99% of the people out there would have been read easily by that roll. he'd learned about the foe through his inability to learn about the foe.

So this LACK of knowledge should be used to express the mystery of this artifact, and how unusual it is for the player to NOT know about it.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

How much of the disparity is also a function of environment/rules used?

In the game I run I use a custom world a friend created that was meant to be a "broken" world. It has, as examples, no halflings, no cats, and the dimensional bonds are weird, allowing for demons and devils that turn to crystal in sunlight to appear from portals in specific places. As a result, spells that summon extradimensional creatures don't work in this game, and teleportation/teleportation effects become... risky (i.e. a villain that teleported away from the heroes was pretty much written off as committing suicide; that is how large the potential failure for long-distance teleportation we are talking about dealing with). Summoners are a banned class in this world.

In hindsight, we looked back and realized that you drop the power of a mid-/high-level spellcaster CONSIDERABLY once you remove the extradimensionals (which basically means "no summoning most things that can cast a spell") and most teleportation beyond 20 feet or so (which would be the practical limit to how much risk you want to run with teleporting in an environment where there's any chance you could kill yourself).

We are also going to the Wound Levels system from Pathfinder Unchained. That spellcaster suddenly becomes a LOT more squishy once they lose a caster level for dropping to 75% health (which there is a 50/50 shot off for every full spellcaster). As an aside, it does make combat a heckuvalot more explosive, because it encourages a "Smoke If Ya Got 'Em" mentality; next round, you may not be able to cast the Fireball spell if you take another hit.

Finally, I started another thread in the advice section about removing prepared spellcasters from the game totally (it's my thing; I love the mechanic, but the fluff of the idea of a high-level wizard forgetting how to cast a spell they cast five minutes ago annoys me too much). The observation that occurred from that is that you reduce a spread of around six tiers to only four, one tier of which (the highest) would only have two classes - Sorcerer and Oracle. Your disparity drops considerably more in that scenario as well.

I guess my point here is, unless you're playing PFS, you're playing a make-up game where you get to create the rules. I think the rules can be manipulated to achieve whatever effect is desired.

If you're PFS though... ;)


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p-sto wrote:

There's also the added complication that ninjas get the exact same class feature but draw from a completely different list of ki powers. Allowing extra ki powers as a feat would mean that ninjas and monks can dip into each other's ki powers unless the make the wording of the feat very specific.

Not that it's much of a loss for monks anyway. There are so few ki powers worth taking that most monks I've seen end up taking close to identical choices for their ki powers and I haven't seen anything in Unchained that would impact these choices.

Technically those are Ninja Tricks. Which, also technically, you can invest a Feat to get (Buying Extra Rogue Talent, and picking Extra Ninja Trick as that Rogue Talent).

I don't think the Monk class can really afford even a "much of a loss" at this point...


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

In re: Martial Maneuvers: I'd like to second the thought this is a rare scenario where they may want to say what is NOT included rather than what IS included.

Specifically: "Any Combat Feat which does NOT have Point Blank Shot, Mounted Combat, or Armor Training as a prerequisite".


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redward wrote:

No, I wouldn't include personal magnetism, for the reasons WRoy already detailed. As for appearance...

Consider a different group of individuals entering the bar in Montana77's anecdote. Only now Charismatic Carol is a Qlippoth-spawn Tiefling with 18 Charisma, and Mundane Molly is an Anglekin Aasimar with a mere 14 Charisma (still normal, according to Jiggy's commoner breakdown).

Charismatic Carol, as a Qlippoth-spawn, is "covered in barbed tentacles, oozing tumors, crudely shaped and stunted appendages, pieces of carapace, or other defects". Plain old Mundane Molly, on the other hand, "possess features with an unearthly charm, such as long, thick hair of a seemingly impossible hue, and limpid, jeweltoned eyes."

Who's getting all the free drinks in this situation?

Depends on the bar, I expect will be the response. And sure, but unless you have a party of all humans going to an all-human bar, you're immediately comparing apples to oranges with oozing tumors. It's all subjective.

I just don't think "you apply your character's Charisma modifier to checks that represent attempts to influence others" gives you the all-encompassing mandate that you seem to think it does.

There is a saying: "Something is the exception that proves the rule". Charisma governs appearance. The fact that you have to say "Well, what about these specific circumstances..." says that this is the norm and the specific circumstances are just those - specific circumstances, not the norm. I think the fact that there are scenarios like this may be why the rule isn't more tightly "hardcoded".

With that said, let's remember that the context of this are people running "socially incompetent" builds. It sounds like the desire is to absolutely minimize the effect of a low Charisma by subsidizing it with high Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate (more the former than the latter). I don't think a build like that is intrinsically problematic - I'd call Tyrion Lannister from Game Of Thrones a comparatively low-Charisma but insanely high Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate character. However, let's not try to pretend he isn't considered functionally deformed by his society's standards and doesn't have a huge gash across his face while we talk about what happens when he walks into a bar.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

In JustinRocket's defense, by disallowing certain archetypes it sounds like you're saying "Monks suck unless you're a Monk".

If you're going to allow the non-Core stuff, you have to allow the non-Core stuff...


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Thor in the first movie pretty much up until he sacrifices himself against The Destroyer.

"Why shouldn't I fight through these hoards and hoards of Frost Giants? I'm WINNING!"


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Perhaps part of the difficulty is that the group of chaotic characters is being allowed to succeed in an unrealistic manner. In real life, it is difficult for a group of chaotic people to succeed at their tasks because there is little incentive to work together.

So, when the one player wants to wander off by themselves, they meet up with the entire opposition. When the players want to argue loudly in the dungeon, have the baddies not detect and attack them, but actually prep for them and trap them.

This isn't meant to be directly punitive, but to actually display the reason WHY this is a good idea. Chaos may be fun, but it very often does not lead to the job being done. Failure will do a good job in curbing the amount of wacky hijinks that ensue.