Marking for interest -- I can't look right now (due to work), but definitely want to check this out.
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I disagree with the initial premise.
Far Strike Monk is an awesome archetype that stands alone. It has a different niche than the Zen Archer (being less offensive but much more defensive and with better mobility) and it works perfectly.
Sensei alone works perfect as a disabler based on Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm, with some Touch of Serenity thrown in for Will-targeting and Scorching Ray for touch AC targeting.
You can also make a very passable full Sohei and full Martial Artist without sweating too much.
Regarding the guide itself, it's nice. I'd like to see other classes!
Scout + Swashbuckler is ultra solid for the tumbling mongoose build.
Dark Lurker stacks with several archetypes too, and makes for a great start of a Shadow dancer.
Hmmm...I suppose that a sohei/sensei would be a rather great alternative to regular monks.
With inspire courage and weapon training (boosted by gloves of dueling), they still get enough attack bonus to be on par with full martials, and the damage boosts make up for any other small deficiencies.
That, and the fact that you can just forgo monk weapons. Because...honestly... they are often relatively weak, since they are balanced around having the property, rather than having great stats. So I doubt anyone could blame you for grabbing a katana.
If you also went to the trouble to grab normal TWF feats, you could also end up with a rather great unarmed build- lots of static bonuses to damage, and you can grab brawling armor for another +2/+2. That ends up as a +12/+12 with all the abilities and items together, right?
Admittedly, you might get similar results if you just took normal sohei with a 2 handed weapon for more power attack in flurry....but those don't usually have access to pummeling style or outslug, now do they?
Admittedly, you might get similar results if you just took normal sohei with a 2 handed weapon for more power attack in flurry....but those don't usually have access to pummeling style or outslug, now do they?
Your proposed Sensei Sohei build loses access to Pummeling Style until level 9, and has a ton of feats it needs to pick up.
Honestly, Sensei alone is good. Sohei alone is good, particularly with WMH. Far Strike Monk alone is great.
Admittedly, you might get similar results if you just took normal sohei with a 2 handed weapon for more power attack in flurry....but those don't usually have access to pummeling style or outslug, now do they?Your proposed Sensei Sohei build loses access to Pummeling Style until level 9, and has a ton of feats it needs to pick up.
Honestly, Sensei alone is good. Sohei alone is good, particularly with WMH. Far Strike Monk alone is great.
Not seeing why I couldn't get pummeling style until level 9 (since the feat needs BAB+6, meaning level 7). I can see some conflict between getting the style, the charge, and improved TWF though. Outslug is not looking much better, since lunge isn't available to them until level 9.
So yes. Admittedly, it it more of a theorycraft dream build, where you start off at the level where you already have everything you need. Level 11 or 13 usually.
Still, I like combining the archetypes. They get enough bonuses that you can be fine if you just want to grab a rather nice weapon, some basic armor, and not deal with flurry.
Not seeing why I couldn't get pummeling style until level 9 (since the feat needs BAB+6, meaning level 7). I can see some conflict between getting the style, the charge, and improved TWF though. Outslug is not looking much better, since lunge isn't available to them until level 9.Admittedly, you might get similar results if you just took normal sohei with a 2 handed weapon for more power attack in flurry....but those don't usually have access to pummeling style or outslug, now do they?Your proposed Sensei Sohei build loses access to Pummeling Style until level 9, and has a ton of feats it needs to pick up.
Honestly, Sensei alone is good. Sohei alone is good, particularly with WMH. Far Strike Monk alone is great.
BAB+6 for 3/4 is at level 8, so you can't get Pummeling Style until level 9. Lunge you can pick up at level 7.
Out of curiosity, why do you like Far Strike Monk so much?
Because it rocks?
1. Ok, so it doesn't get WIS-to-hit. Big whoop. You go with higher DEX. This gives you less ki points to exploit than a ZAM but you have higher Reflex saves to be truly safe with Evasion. And hey, look at that, Far Strike Monk keeps Evasion and Improved Evasion, while the ZAM is a puny 1d8 class with no features to protect its HP.
2. You get the ability to add ki focus to your weapons at level 5, compared to a ZAM's 19.
3. You keep Maneuver Training, and you have proficiency with things like Brutal Bolas. Since you can make trip attempts while you flurry, you can throw enemies down with it as you damage other folks, without much need of investment on feats to do it safely. If your GM allows you to apply Ki Throw to your ranged trips (which, technically, as Ki Focus weapons, you should qualify for), then you can pull some nonsensical teleportation trips.
4. So you can trip... but you can also reposition. While the ZAM is spending its plentiful Ki to Dimension Door, you are probably Shooting on the Run - which is less exciting, but you can do that s~@# all day.
5. Thrown weapons have better critical threat ranges than bows at the expense of reach.
6. While ZAM can use Point-Blank Master, the Far Strike Monk can flurry with thrown weapons -- as melee weapons, preventing AoOs. You also don't need Reflexive Shot to threaten melee spaces if you want to work with allies.
7. Startoss Style is an option for FSM, though I'm not a huge fan.
Is ZAM bad? God, no. It's ultra stronk, possibly the best archetype for Monks in terms of power.
But it's not too far ahead of FSM -- or Sensei or Sohei for that matter.
BAB+6 for 3/4 is at level 8, so you can't get Pummeling Style until level 9. Lunge you can pick up at level 7.Not seeing why I couldn't get pummeling style until level 9 (since the feat needs BAB+6, meaning level 7). I can see some conflict between getting the style, the charge, and improved TWF though. Outslug is not looking much better, since lunge isn't available to them until level 9.Admittedly, you might get similar results if you just took normal sohei with a 2 handed weapon for more power attack in flurry....but those don't usually have access to pummeling style or outslug, now do they?Your proposed Sensei Sohei build loses access to Pummeling Style until level 9, and has a ton of feats it needs to pick up.
Honestly, Sensei alone is good. Sohei alone is good, particularly with WMH. Far Strike Monk alone is great.
Definitely pushed to 13 for that one too (at least for getting both iTWF adn pummeling style.
But lunge is BAB+6 as well. So it is pushed to level 9, which would push the important outslug style feats to 11 and 13.
While getting pounce competitors around level 10 is about normal, this is still slightly late.
So yeah...a bit hard to do interesting unarmed things with sohei after losing flurry of blows. Sensei/sohei is nicer just for grabbing a nice martial weapon and wailing away. Nice, simple, little system mastery needed since it can just use normal armor/weapons.
Possibly nice for a ranged style too, since the bonuses just apply to appropriate attacks. You might need to focus on monk throwing weapons to make an actual offbrand zen archer though (using regular archery feats unavailable to the ZA to make up for lack fo flurry), since the wis to attack only applies to monk weapons. So...REALLY offbrand in that department.
Replacing Weapon Training is a non-option after Weapon Master's Handbook.
Corsair
Dervish of Dawn
Lore Warden(B)
Mutation Warrior
Trench Fighter
Eldritch Guardian(B)
Siegebreaker(B)
Drill Seargant(B)
Weapon Master
These are the only archetypes worth a damn.
I like the guide, but I have to say, the thing that made me the happiest was the compatibility list at the bottom. The 'Archetype Combinations' chart I often refer to is starting to show its age. Any and all classes you did that for would be amazing in my book.
Well, blorp -- now it's after 01:00 in the morning again, and I still haven't gotten a chance to get to this new guide (was about to do it and got interrupted). Will try again tomorrow.
One thing I wonder is whether the guide title should be changed to avoid confusion with use of "hybrid archetype" as referring to an archetype that blends part of one class into another.
Yes, a new Rogue guide is now needed (and while I haven't seen it yet, I have a sneak attacking suspicion that Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue will need its own guide).
With respect to Fighter, the Weapon Master's Handbook certainly changed the relative worth of vanilla Fighter and various archetypes. But we're not done yet -- later this year, the Armor Master's Handbook is coming out, and that may upgrade Armor Training the way the Weapon Master's Handbook did for Weapon Training. While we're at it, the Weapon Master's Handbook also upgraded both VMC Fighter and Myrmidarch Magus, and again, the Armor Master's Handbook may do the same; even before this, Myrmidarch Magus is starting to look not too shabby, and probably needs its own new guide (the existing guide for it was written way before any of this stuff, and goes with the assumption that Myrmidarch is the archer Magus archetype, which it isn't really),
Replacing Weapon Training is a non-option after Weapon Master's Handbook.
I would add the two-handed fighter to the list. The only change that THFs get the bonuses only with two-handed weapons from the respective categories. Sure, that shuts out a few groups, but the feature itself should still apply.
Anyway, why is the sensei considered so good for a non-unchained monk? Even with wisdom to attack and damage, not having flurry should be a significant decrease in your fighting prowess. Sure, you can buff like a bard, but a bard has the same base attack bonus and a lot more tricks up their sleeve.
Ah, sorry, I am AFB. That is even worse, though.
Anyway, why is the sensei considered so good for a non-unchained monk? Even with wisdom to attack and damage, not having flurry should be a significant decrease in your fighting prowess. Sure, you can buff like a bard, but a bard has the same base attack bonus and a lot more tricks up their sleeve.
Because your goal is not to deal damage. You just want ridiculous Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm DC, and you pair that up with Qingqong Scorching Rays and Ki Shouts, Dimensional Assault, Mantis Style and Crushing Blow for a build based on single-target shut down...
While also buffing the party with performances and sharing evasion and stuff.
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On a side note, the next set of Monk Hybrid Archetypes ("Blended Archetypes?") will be a combo Sohei / Master of Many Styles. Any suggestions on the Styles?
Again, per strict RAW, Sohei and Master of Many Styles can't be taken together because they both alter bonus feats. Most gms would allow it in a home game, but for PFS, it's a no go.
If it was allowed, Empty Quiver Style + Monkey Style + Snake Style would be a great combo for an archer.
On a side note, the next set of Monk Hybrid Archetypes ("Blended Archetypes?") will be a combo Sohei / Master of Many Styles. Any suggestions on the Styles?Again, per strict RAW, Sohei and Master of Many Styles can't be taken together because they both alter bonus feats. Most gms would allow it in a home game, but for PFS, it's a no go.
If it was allowed, Empty Quiver Style + Monkey Style + Snake Style would be a great combo for an archer.
It actually feels a bit more gray area on the RAW interpretation.
"A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature."
I interpreted this to mean that you have to actually see the words "alters" or "replaces" for it to create an incompatibility.
This interpretation is incorrect. We have been told that ADDING things can cause archetypes to be incompatible. yes, ADDING. There's a FAQ that makes it clear that if 2 archetypes both ADD a class skill, and everything else doesn't touch, the archetypes are incompatible because both have ADDED or ALTERED the list of class skills.
EDIT: added link to FAQ
Chess PWN is correct.
Also, I can't help but notice one major difference between this guide and Jelly's Hybrid Archetype Guide.
Anyway, why is the sensei considered so good for a non-unchained monk? Even with wisdom to attack and damage, not having flurry should be a significant decrease in your fighting prowess. Sure, you can buff like a bard, but a bard has the same base attack bonus and a lot more tricks up their sleeve.
Because your goal is not to deal damage. You just want ridiculous Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm DC, and you pair that up with Qingqong Scorching Rays and Ki Shouts, Dimensional Assault, Mantis Style and Crushing Blow for a build based on single-target shut down...
While also buffing the party with performances and sharing evasion and stuff.
This sounds like an incredibly fun character to play. What archetypes would you suggest taking with Sensei for such a character?
None. I appreciate the other features.
Except Qinggong of course.
Never give up Stunning Fist. Or Abundant Step.
This interpretation is incorrect. We have been told that ADDING things can cause archetypes to be incompatible. yes, ADDING. There's a FAQ that makes it clear that if 2 archetypes both ADD a class skill, and everything else doesn't touch, the archetypes are incompatible because both have ADDED or ALTERED the list of class skills.EDIT: added link to FAQ
Hey, if this was just posted in June of last year, I don't feel bad about missing it. The General gets annihilated not simply for the Bonus Feat, but because of two sets of Class Skills being added.
The Guide has been updated.
Are you sure the update took effect? I just checked and Master of Many Styles is still listed as compatible with Sohei (although strangely not the other way around).
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Reading several of the combinations in this guide (now that I FINALLY got a chance to read it) gives me ideas for a whole villain party of Monks. I didn't realize that you could actually get Monks casting spells like in the Mortal Kombat video game . . . :-)
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I have read through the Unchained Monk class description on www.d20pfsrd.com, and while I haven't combed exhaustively to make sure that I didn't miss something subtle, it seems that you just CAN'T do most of the stuff described in this guide (other than get Qinggong Powers) with Unchained Monk, which is incompatible with all but 2 (or 3?) Monk archetypes.
Karmic Monk actually doesn't work.
I see that www.d20pfsrd.com still hasn't updated their archetype tables with Karmic Monk, Serpent-Fire Adept, and Monk of the Mantis -- they are still buried in the Paizo Monk Archetypes page, and do not appear under Unchained Monk at all.
Karmic Monk doesn't work either though, it replaces Slow Fall so it was clearly not meant to be used with Unchained (probably because the books were at development simultaneously).
BTW, this is not directly related, since Drunken Master does not stack with Monk of the Empty Hand, how would you try to set up the 3.5 Drunken Master? They were, apart from the drunken fighting bit, extremely good at using improvised weapons and could do a fair bit of damage with them.
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@JAM
Updating the guide to include Disciple of Wholeness:
Disciple of Wholeness can stack with:
Black Asp
Contemplative (Dwarf) - Loses Wholeness of Body though, making it weaker
Invested Regent
Karmic Monk
Master of Many Styles
Monk of the Four Winds
Monk of the Iron Mountain
Monk of the Lotus
Monk of the Seven Winds
Perfect Scholar
Qinggong Monk
Scaled Fist
Sensei
Serpent-Fire Adept - Loses Wholeness of Body
Terra-Cotta Monk
Weapon Adept
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Nimble Guardian can stack with:
Invested Regent
Master of Many Styles
Monk of the Four Winds
Monk of the Lotus
Monk of the Seven Forms
Nornkith
Sage Counciler
Underfoot Adept (Technically, if you were a halfling catfolk for some reason)
Windstep Master
Nornkith can stack with:
Monk of the Empty Hand
Monk of the Sacred Mountain
Nimble Guardian
Scarred Monk
Treetop Monk